I do not want to, but It appears I must leave.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Geez, I'm getting kinda worked up here. I remember when my wife was abusive toward me. I did stop it before it got as bad as what you are going through. I was really fortunate that I turned things around when I was starting to get lost in the FOG, starting to question my sanity, when she was telling me that I was doing things, thinking things, or feeling things that I wasn't. I got some support, and turned things around before I truly started to believe that stuff.

 You've gotten pretty deep in this already. But not so far that you can't turn it around.

Please... .if you think one thing... .and your wife says something completely different... .believe yourself.

And if you don't know... .post here. Ask us.

[Grey Kitty]

Geez, I'm getting kinda worked up here. I remember when my wife was abusive toward me. I did stop it before it got as bad as what you are going through. I was really fortunate that I turned things around when I was starting to get lost in the FOG, starting to question my sanity, when she was telling me that I was doing things, thinking things, or feeling things that I wasn't. I got some support, and turned things around before I truly started to believe that stuff.

 You've gotten pretty deep in this already. But not so far that you can't turn it around.

Please... .if you think one thing... .and your wife says something completely different... .believe yourself.

And if you don't know... .post here. Ask us.

[hurthusband]

She had told me not to contact her and that she would just die.  I did check in today... texted her asking how she was.  I just meant it because I was concerned and cared.  She texted back that what did i want to check on... the mail? and asked me if i got the paperwork for divorce today.  I asked if i was supposed to and she said do it tomorrow for sure.  I suppose I will.  I was terrified texting her would open the floodgates it did.  I am worried because she is isolated and alone so I wanted to check.  It is probable she would text and be angry i didnt check on her later on tonight anyways, but at least i showed concern i suppose.  I am not sure what she wants.  I asked her point blank.  I said i just feel that she wants me to do all the changing and carry all the load which turned into me basically calling her a mooch and worthless in her eyes.

This is not vindictive behavior.  She seriously believes i am attacking her and that drives me crazy.  Now she say she is going to die and i should be happy.  I asked her if she is just trying to push all my buttons to push me over the edge because she knows that hurts.  It was just me making about me in her eyes.  I do not want to be callous and abandon her to die, which i believe will happen, but its seeming like its either i die with her or i abandon her to die and live with that guilt for life.

Things are so messed up.  I should have left a long time ago so at least she wouldnt blame me for all of this. 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey hh, Sounds like you are in the thick of FOG and drama.  Is it possible for you to take a deep breath and take a step back, and allow yourself to do nothing until you figure out the best course for you?  I suggest you sit with your feelings, without needing to take any action whatsoever.  LuckyJim

[hurthusband]

Hey hh, Sounds like you are in the thick of FOG and drama.  Is it possible for you to take a deep breath and take a step back, and allow yourself to do nothing until you figure out the best course for you?  I suggest you sit with your feelings, without needing to take any action whatsoever.  LuckyJim

I do not want to do anything.  I think it would be best if we did not communicate and do nothing for about a week.  She continues to now contact me and make demands for me to get divorce papers.  She told me last night she told the kids I would never be back.  she said she hopes my sister kills herself.  All sorts of horrible things and I did not respond.  This morning she texted I take her off block so I did.  She called and started blasting me on how I ruined her life and how this and that... how I driven her to want to die.  How everything will go down.  How I cannot say what is right with the kids.  I finally said she was abusive and as bad as the youngest father who knocked her up left her and stole her money because she has taken the kids from me, beaten me, verbally assaulted me, and taken all the money.  She went ballistic and informed he he also hit her which I never knew.  I apologized stating it was a wrong comparison but by that point I could not point out that she had done 20 things horrible and that resulted in me firing back which was wrong or it seems im just making excuses. 

I do not want to hurt her.  I want to be calm and get through this or divorce peacefully.  I do not want to wreck her nor the kids in this.  I am obviously re-inforcing and exacerbating things.  Am I just firing heavier salvos?  Am I ... .I just do not know.  I wish she saw my love for her, but she says she does not.  So maybe it is my fault in many less tangible ways... .

[Lucky Jim]

Good.  Try to do nothing.  Is there a way for you suspend communication for a period of time, like taking a "time-out"?  The goal is to wait for the water to clear.

So maybe it is my fault in many less tangible ways... .

No, it's not your fault, so stop beating yourself up.  Try to be kind and gentle with yourself.

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

No, it isn't your fault.

Don't beat yourself up, like LJ said.

And next time she says something abusive over the phone, just hang up. You don't need to defend yourself. You don't need to prove that she is abusive.

All you need do is get yourself out of that toxic situation. (Her verbally abusing you)

[hurthusband]

I am sure she does not view alot of what she says as abuse so its possible i do the same

This is a mess.  She has me over a barrel if I am going to be civil about all of this.  If i want to be cold blooded I could put her over a barrel

[momtara]

 "I think it would be best if we did not communicate and do nothing for about a week."

I'll say. You should tape the conversations. If she makes a suicide threat or a physical threat, she can be hospitalized. Get a tape recorder now before you regret not doing it.

You might inform her shrink about your concerns about her, and her sister to check up on her.

DO you regret taking the phone off block? It seems like every time you do, she says cruel things . I know you want to make sure she's ok, tho. I wish someone else could check up.

Do the kids know they can/should contact you in secret? Do they have cell phones?

I think you need help dealing with this. Once you get the right help or a smart person gets involved, you may regret waiting so long. Things can get better.

Obviously she will never ever get divorce papers. She was trying to goad you. Just try to tune all that out.

[Grey Kitty]

I am sure she does not view alot of what she says as abuse so its possible i do the same

You gotta believe in something. Start with yourself. 

This idea that you are abusive and don't know it... .this is her being abusive and trying to distort reality. What we call being lost in the FOG -- Fear, Obligation, and Guilt.

This is a mess.  She has me over a barrel if I am going to be civil about all of this.  If i want to be cold blooded I could put her over a barrel

I agree completely that it is a mess.

I don't understand how she has you over a barrel... .or how you could have her there.

[hurthusband]

so my wife apologized yesterday for Friday night and asked that we take a 5 day break from talking which i agreed and stated i love her and I do care.

About 2 pm today she texted if i went to church which I said I had not and felt a bit guilty over it. I explained my step father was talking about a station between my mother/brother/sister that i did not want to be involved in.She continued to poke about that and i explained i did not want to get involved and it was just stupid drama.  She asked if it was about her and I said of course not.

She then started to go into how miserable she was and then friend of step fathers came in who i used to work with so i am trying to be cordial and text with wife.  She talked about how miserable she was and i said how i am sorry she is so unhappy.  I asked if there was anything i could do.  She just kept on how things were unfair and i tried to sympathize but panicking to answer back fast enough and worrying she just thinks im having a good ole time without her cause she brings that up when we are separated.  I never bring up that we agreed not to talk. she stated i was making it about myself

She then states why havent i done anything for her spontaneously and do something for her cause she feels forgotten... .Now this struck a nerve with me as i was already frustrated and we had been going back and forth on this for 2 hours.  I say i dont know what to do.  i was only home 3 days this week and i made a special trip to get some prosciutto and craft beers that you cant get just anywhere for you.  you tell me not to come around or contact you so i dont.  You want to so i listen.  im crazy by this point so i kick out the friend and leave.  i say this is too much to deal with

she says she does nto know what im talking about and sufferien badly and im just hurting her by saying things like that and that i am not capable of saving this marraige.  and she is sorry to bother me along with saying she does not understand and is done.

i explain that i do care and that everytime it seems she contacts me it is to say how she is miserable and it is my fault.  i cannot just keep taking that.  i explain i put up with physical abuse from her and i sit by the phone and dont eat to be ready for her at all times so she doesnt get mad.  i explain that we are all miserable and we do not want this life.  i am not saying mine is worse, but we are all miserable and i dont know what to do.

she says im blaming her for things that have not happens and i am crazy.  she says she loves me but its over.

i say it seems your spinning everything back to being my fault after going back on agreement and it felt like attacking me.  She says she never.  she says she didnt attack me by asking me about spontaneous things but just suggesting... .

maybe i just cant handle seeing her in inrepairable pain and suffereing and listening and watching it for hours on end and everything i do fails or is unrecognized so i am shutting down to her because i cannot handle it at this point.  it is uncaring i know... i do not know.  i said this too her but i feel horrible

[momtara]

I think if you are going to have a 5-day period when you don't talk, you really need the strength to stick to it. Responding to her never seems to end in any good way.

However, I can see that you feel guilt and feel bad for her pain. Is there anyone who can look in on her while you are not talking to her? Will she see her therapist then?

I think things would become clearer for you if you can step away from the situation and breathe a little. I doubt you got much out of texting with her for two hours, except wasting 2 hrs.

[hurthusband]

she keeps texting how horribly depressed she is.

i keep asking if she is talking to her doc. is it she wants me to fix things or just listen... she says just listen cause im all thats left

i mention telling her med doctor how bad things are.  she says maybe

i mention going back to psychologist and she says that one is too weak

i mention new one, she says no doctors

i mention facilities and she says she is not going away from kids

i mention ones that are close and she says she is not going to a hospital

i mention checking out resort type ones

she im cheap and will put her in a bad one

i say i will figure out a way and she we not taking money from my mother

i mention some other way and she says she is not going to one so drop it

i finally say i am trying to help anyways possible... she says i dont know what im talking about and i say probably not but im trying to find people who do.  i want to help but it seems you have everything worked out in your head a certain way and nothign i can do can help or change it.

she doesnt want to be away from kids.  now im ___ty for mentioning any of it.  she is going crazy... she is crazy.  she is not going to take her life but this is maddening to me too.  its like i have to abandon her here for self survival.  abandon her to die because nobody else is going to check on her. and that is alot of guilt for me

[Hope0807]

I recorded from my back pocket with the screen off…went off into another room to get it started as needed and kept it in my pocket.  Good luck.

[Grey Kitty]

Hang in there, man! If you spend the next four days not talking to her or even texting her, it should improve your outlook a bit.

She then states why havent i done anything for her spontaneously and do something for her cause she feels forgotten... .Now this struck a nerve with me as i was already frustrated and we had been going back and forth on this for 2 hours.  I say i dont know what to do.  i was only home 3 days this week and i made a special trip to get some prosciutto and craft beers that you cant get just anywhere for you.  you tell me not to come around or contact you so i dont.  You want to so i listen.  im crazy by this point so i kick out the friend and leave.  i say this is too much to deal with

You sound pretty lost in the FOG here.

She's just told you she doesn't want to talk for 5 days... .and now she's complaining that you aren't showering her with love. What the heck? (Yes, I know the answer to that is BPD... .but really... .)

When is the last time she spontaneously did something nice for you?

You asked a friend to leave so you could have a nasty text exchange with your wife that you aren't supposed to be talking for 5 days. If you were enjoying your friend's company, that was probably better use of your time than texting your wife!

i explain that i do care and that everytime it seems she contacts me it is to say how she is miserable and it is my fault.  i cannot just keep taking that.  i explain i put up with physical abuse from her and i sit by the phone and dont eat to be ready for her at all times so she doesnt get mad.  i explain that we are all miserable and we do not want this life.  i am not saying mine is worse, but we are all miserable and i dont know what to do.

Have you read about trying not to JADE here. The acronym stands for Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. Never do any of these things with your wife--they are all invalidating to her, and will just wind her up more to attack you more. If you can't find something better to say (That isn't one of those four categories), just say nothing. It won't go quite as badly.

[letmeout]

Reading your posts reminds me of what crazy stuff I went through with my ex.

You can't save them, but you have to save yourself.

[hurthusband]

yea she just kept calling.  I know about JADE but sometimes its just so desperate and unfair!

This morning she calls crying.  I am late to work because honestly I can hardly get off the couch in my office to get to other office.  No shower... She calls about as soon as I get in crying saying she does not know how she can do this.

Last night she was just hammering on me again for neglect and I say I have to get rid of her or I am going to kill myself.  She has said that countless times to me.  She took it as me rejecting her like everyone else.  I am losing my mind and I apologize.  Then she says I am planning on killing her.  I do not really remember what happened after that other than hanging up and turning off phone.

Anyways, she calls again this morning.  I try and say I am so sorry she feels this way and its horrible.  She says its cause what I said which I apologize for again and say I do want to help her and love her.  Maybe that is invalidating, but she seemed to respond some. She then goes over how she has nobody and so forth.  No clue what to do and does not know how she will live.  I ask her if she is talking about ending her life to which she says she has no plan nor intention and I cannot get her admitted.  She just saying that in the future from starvation or something else.  I tell her I am asking because I do not want her to die.  I listen for 10 minutes to her and feel horrible for her.  Finally, she is quiet.  I feel she is wanting me to say something so I ask what can be done.  She says nothing.  I try to talk to her about a facility or getting help again.  Doctors, etc.  She says doctors dont care and wont help.  All sorts of reasons from finances to kids being more upset over missing a vacation than their mother dying.  All is crazy.  I try to be rational with her explaining how losing her mother has been devastating to her and I know she would not want to do that to the kids.  Not seeing them for 3 months is better than missing them for years.  I shoot down the finances stuff by just saying we should at least look into it.

Then its back to all my fault for saying what I did.  She isnt going anywhere.  I am crying and frustrated at this point because I am trying but she just seemst o want it magically to all stop.  Saying I do not care.  Then brings up its all my fault for saying what I did.  I say it was horrible and i apologize again.  She keeps harping on it saying there is no accountability.  I ask her what she wants to happen.  She just says I destroyed her.  I finally start JADE.  I say that she has said the same thing to me daily every day for 2 weeks that she wants me gone, and I did say it out of anger and pain and it was wrong, but we both make mistakes.  Please just see from my perspective too.  Does not work.  then it is me bringing up the past again.  I say that it was brought up by her first.  Then its me just attacking her and I am horrible.  I stop JADE and just apologize and asking what can be done crying.  I feel insane.  She keeps on how I do not care and I just want her gone.  I say this is abusive to talk to me like this.  She says its not and I just use that as an excuse to get out of the truth.

I just dont know... then hangs up on me.  Says then all she wanted was me to ask her to breakfast or lunch.  I do not know what to do at this point.  I apologize and JADE again saying I am sorry lets go have lunch.  It did not cross my mind because I do not know if she wants me to stay away or be close or what is going on.  She says I have only asked her once in past 4 months... .(I asked her last week I believe).  She says I never reach out and try to help and only make it about me.  I ask to lunch again.  she says we will kill each other.  I say i want no harm to her and want her happier...

I do not know how to handle this.  She is complete wreck and I try to help then everything is killed off I try.  Then a quasi attack starts.  I panic. I start to lose it.  Then that is used against me.  Then I start to ask why she is doing this and its me making it about me.  I try to state why i did something which is attacking her and not accepting responsibility.  I apologize and just feel crazy.  She states I do not love her and im a horrible person.

I then beg for forgiveness.  I then ask what I can do.  She states its all forced.  I do not care.

I am so crazy I cannot think what to do for her.  I honestly want somebody to walk in the front door, put a gun to my head and blow my head off because honestly, I cannot handle the guilt of knowing if it is partly me.

Its like its all about her and I cannot have any feelings.  I have to fix things, but no effort by her.  I cannot make any mistakes or its seized upon as me at fault and wipes away all transgressions from her.  I forgive... I just do not know.  Everything vision wise seems very tight at this point.  I feel very weak

[momtara]

This is not your fault.

I understand the situation - you realize how desperately you both need someone to intervene, and you don't want it to be you because she will blame you. However, you also realize someone may get hurt. You are a good person and don't deserve to be hurt. And you want to protect her too. You need someone else to help you.

If she was bleeding profusely, you'd call an ambulance. You wouldn't keep putting your hand on her artery.

She's bleeding. You just have to get a way to prove it so you can go talk to a person about committing her. And at this point it seems irresponsible to me that her therapist is not telling her she needs to go to a hospital.

Is she a danger to herself? Is she taking proper care of herself? If not, let her doc know.

Please get a tape recorder. If you can get her on tape saying she's starving, expects to die, this and that, maybe you can have a mobile crisis team come to the house and coax or force her into being voluntarily committed for a while. She is sick. She needs professionals to treat her, not you trying to figure out the right thing to say every second - no one could possibly preform that superhuman feat. It's not your fault.

Don't keep putting this on yourself. Please talk to someone. You never know who will finally put a stop to this nonsense that goes on and on.

Also, it seems like you both agreed to 5 days of no contact. Every time you stop enforcing that boundary, she says things that drive you nuts and make you late for work and make you doubt your own reality. You need to be firmer about this. But if you are worried about her, again, get someone else involved. You are a good person!

[hurthusband]

What do you do when they go over and over and over the same things and shoot down all your help and its so frustrating cause they are just wallowing in this hole and its going on for 30 minutes then hours and hours.  You cannot get anything done but if you disengage its cause you do not care.  You get frustrated because they do not see that you do care and are trying... .  How do you handle that?

Her only famiy is her sister, and I cannot seem to get her to take this as serious as she should, but I do not think she is capable of it nor able to do anything.  She took her out drinking to talk about it.  Why does booz have to be involved?  Well probably cause my wife might not go otherwise...   Her sister will no longer talk to me.

She is down to just her psychiatrist and she tossed her psychologist basically because of my interactions with her.  Her psychiatrist does not know what all is going on, but my wife is VERY careful in what she says and reads the laws to see how to prevent any sort of involuntary admission to a hospital.  The only grounds I could get her on is violating her probation on teh grounds of harrassment to me or violence to me.  That puts in her jail where she may or may not get help and leads to all sorts of new problems if she does not get any help which is most likely here in Texas as we have teh worst mental health sytem in the country

[momtara]

No, you don't need to do the jail stuff. I think you need to talk to someone, or two people, or three, until someone in the mental health field can help you. And I think you need to save every shred of evidence that she is not taking proper care of herself. Dumping her therapist might be a sign. Talking about starving to death etc. may be a sign. You should tape these conversations. Hurthusband, there are people out there to help you. Granted, they are not easy to find. But no one wants your wife to sit there dying without help. No one wants a police mess or someone to get hurt, esp. with children around. You may even be able to go to court and get power of attorney or something (I'm talking out of the top of my head).

No one wants this to get out of hand - so talk to someone before it does. There are people in your life who have had lots of dealings with mental health professionals - maybe psychologists at your kids' school, docs at the local hospital (and yes I know your wife's parents died there, but you can't rule everything out) and maybe her psych who she isn't seeing anymore can agree to back you up at this point. I think it's good to have something on file in case this comes to a head someday - if your wife breaks a window again or something else and the police come.

You could say to one of your kids' advisors, hey, can I talk to you for a while about a troubling situation at home... . Yes, you will be taking a small risk, but it's so much smaller than letting this go on. Maybe someone will refer you to someone who really knows about these matters and you will wish you hadn't waited so long. You will be so relieved and grateful. I've been through a few situatiosn like this and it felt wonderful when finally someone realized what was happening and stepped in to make it better, but I had to tell a lot of people.

The time is coming for you to take the next big step. You have done an amazing job so far.

[Grey Kitty]

I agree that jail won't help her... .and if she doesn't want to be in the mental health system, she can probably stay out of it.

She doesn't want to get help. She wants to blame you for all her problems. It gives her a tiny bit of relief to do that... .without fixing anything and nearly destroying you.

What can you do?

Hang up on her when she starts getting circular, accusatory, or abusive.

If she burns up the phone, either turn it off... .or block her number. (If you need to take calls from work or others)

Being an emotional punching bag for her isn't going to save her, and its destroying you. Give yourself more space from her.

[sweetheart]

Hello hurthusband   

What do you do when they go over and over and over the same things and shoot down all your help and its so frustrating cause they are just wallowing in this hole and its going on for 30 minutes then hours and hours.  You cannot get anything done but if you disengage its cause you do not care.  You get frustrated because they do not see that you do care and are trying... .  How do you handle that?

What I did when my dBPDh was at his very worst and I realised I was saying the same things to him over and over again, was to get outside help.

At the point where your w can't hear you at all is the point where her mental illness is outside your control.

Like you we have a family. I was scared, confused and OUT OF MY DEPTH, so I involved anyone I thought could help.

In no particular order:-

- I emailed my h's P a list of concerns and a timeline of incidents and unsafe behaviours that showed evidence of mental deterioration and risk.

- I went to our family doctor, told him, and he wrote to my h's P.

- I went to an advice centre to make sure that I was doing all I could.

- I started using the police for Welfare Checks and my h safety out of hours. I involved the Crisis services helpline to let them know everytime he had a serious dysregulation.

Despite all these interventions my h still nearly died by trying to set fire to himself. He was eventually detained in a psych ward, and had another three subsequent admissions before his behaviour started to stabilise. My h presented in very similar ways to your w, he was completely out of control.

Realising that his mental illness was not something I could fix, make better, stop, probably saved his life.

If you can redirect the energy you are using trying to help your wife toward someone who really can help her, things will change, they will change for you, your wife and your children.

[hurthusband]

She wanted me to come back home yesterday.   I agreed to have lunch with her but not go back home since its just back and forth until some stability sets in.  She said she will check with out patient facilities for help now... so getting her some info on that...

very cautious and aprehensive here

[momtara]

GOOD. You need to get more people involved. Not all of them will be as helpful or quick acting as they should be. But don't stop. There have to be qualified professionals out there that will make family life more tolerable and safe for all of you especially the kids. Don't let her take weeks to do something if you feel this needs solving now. And good for you for setting a boundary! You may want to tape record your lunch - just tell yourself it's for your own sanity.

[hurthusband]

its strange because its literally 2 to 3 days of basically the perfect spouse and then 3 to 4 of about the worst person possible.  Its always a same routine.  Everything is completely different and its just a switch that triggers and doesnt stop.  It is literally two totally different people.  I sometimes wonder if she is both BPD and bipolar since her episodes are a bit longer sometimes

I know she also has tested as slightly on the autism spectrum too.  She also seems extremely paranoid alot

[GaGrl]

hurthusband, what are you observing regarding her use of alcohol and prescription pills?  Do you think that might be a factor in her erratic behaviors over a 7 day period?  Has she been drinking when she is abusive, and then becomes more compliant when she is sober and aware of her behavior?

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .