Starting to plan for D Day

[ASD]

Hi.  I've been posting on the Undecided board and in my rational brain I have decided.  It's time to go. 

My rational hesitation is how do I ensure that from the beginning the children are with me and not with her?  How do I get her out of the house, cos I don't think she'll go willingly!

Does anyone know of good divorce/family law attorneys that specialize in BPD / high conflict personalities in (South) Florida?

[ForeverDad]

If she has been making suicidal comments, documenting that could make an impact on the outcome of a custody or parenting struggle.

Basically, court see behaviors in two spheres of influence, adult behaviors (between you, her and other adults) and parenting behaviors (between you and the children or her and the children).

For example, If she rants and rages at you, that's adult behavior, not good but probably not seen as 'actionable' as far as parenting is concerned.  If she rants and rages at the children, that is definitely parenting behavior.  Even if the children are exposed to it, it might not be 'actionable'.  (I recall when I called CPS before our separation and subsequent divorce that I reported her ranting at me in front of our child and I was told to call back if she directed her rage at our child. Apparently my local agency allowed exposure to rages but not when directed at the children.  )  At what point her behaviors are seen by agencies or family court as 'actionable' regarding custody/parenting is hard to say.

You do need a proactive, experienced, problem-solving family law attorney.  It's hard to be absolutely sure one or another would be best for you.  Get some confidential consultations - you have a right to confidentiality! - and compare the options and strategies proffered.  You most definitely need more than a typical forms-filing, hand-holding lawyer.

In the initial inexpensive consultations ask the lawyers if they're familiar with the strategies and solutions by William A Eddy. ( www.HighConflictInstitute.com )  He's a social worker, mediator, lawyer, lecturer, author of many books and co-author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a crucial separation/divorce handbook on this board.  If you are informed you and the children will survive and probably prosper too.  It and many other essential/helpful books and articles are described on our Book and Article review boards.

One suggestion I've heard is to pose this question and see how it is answered... ."Who would you recommend for yourself if you were facing a high conflict divorce and needed a lawyer?"  If you hear some names more often than others then put those at the top of your short list.

[ASD]

I've started a journal to document everything.  It seems so ridiculous, but I guess you have to.  Who's to say that I am writing the truth though.  I am going to get some kind of camera or voice recorder too.  I bought the book "Splitting" and will read that.  I called a therapist specializing in personality disorders ... .for me.  I am looking for an attorney but that's proving difficult. 

This really sucks. 

[maxen]

I called a therapist specializing in personality disorders ... .for me.

good. i had the great fortune that the therapist i met with had treated BPDs in her practice and spotted it in my wife. she knew the frustrations.

How do I get her out of the house, cos I don't think she'll go willingly!

what exactly do you have in mind?

This really sucks. 

yes it does. you have to accept that, don't expect any of this to go easily.

[livednlearned]

Hi ASD,

You're going about this the right way, making a plan, documenting things, and gathering information. I found that being a few steps ahead of my ex was critical to getting a good outcome. I made some big mistakes in the beginning when I didn't know about BPD, but eventually found my way here and that helped me turn things around. When you are the person making the decision to leave, it does give you a psychological and emotional advantage too.

There is a good article here that will help you put together a strategy with your lawyer: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

You know in your heart that it's better if you get more custody, so don't waver from that, no matter what lawyers say. I get a sense that lawyers perpetuate bias toward mothers by telling dads what they will or won't get in family law court in terms of custody. If you believe you can get primary custody or full custody, then ask for it. Keep in mind that full custody does not mean that the kids won't see their mom -- visitation is very hard to terminate. But having legal and primary physical custody (what essentially adds up to sole or full custody) does give you an advantage when it comes to making healthy decisions for your kids. Your wife will likely fight everything you suggest, so you need legal authority (whether that is decision-making, sole legal custody, or whatever it's called in your state) in order to get your kids what they need.

There are also a lot of good strategies discussed on the Coparenting board when you need to handle things that fall outside of the legal boundaries.

Documentation can go a long way -- you may only need some of what you document, but just having it is the difference between night and day. It will help with the "he said, she said" problem with family court. I also used Google calendar to add things -- one sentence comments about things that were going on (appointments, interactions) and then printed it out as an agenda neatly organized in chronological order. That helped me have my facts together. It can be emotional to go through divorce, whether it's BPD or not, and it was so helpful to have things down on paper because my memory got very fuzzy.

It's a good idea to consult with 2-3 lawyers if you can. Consultations can run $150 and up per hour depending on where you live. Ask each of the lawyers to outline a strategy. Then compare their advice. You can share what they recommend here and we'll get all up in your business  and offer some insight based on our own experiences.

It's very likely that you will be much more expert on the BPD part of this -- don't let them talk you out of what you know. They work for you. You're the boss.

You need a lawyer to walk you through the process of having her removed from the house. Laws are different depending on where you live.

What is proving to be difficult about finding an attorney?

[ForeverDad]

Getting her out of the house... . not to discourage you, but you also need to ask, How can I reduce the risk of me being kicked out of the house?  When it comes down to who must leave, many officials, police or judges, don't have enough information in a brief hearing to decide which parent ought to move out, so you can guess what often happens, they default to telling the person of the male gender to move and leave their wallet behind.

Too often our new members tell us there was an 'incident', police got called or the spouses filed a police report or the spouses went to court and got a protection order and they had to involuntarily leave on a moment's notice.  That's why we say to be prepared, have a plan, a strategy for various what-if contingencies, local supporters, local lawyer, etc.  Needless to say, never yell, scream or even push your spouse.  That can morph into "I was hit, strangled and thrown down the stairs!"  Your life right now needs to be squeaky clean so any 'unsubstantiated' (court-speak for 'false' claims lack documentation or credibility.

[ASD]

ForeverDad, LivedNLearned, everyone this is amazing.  Thank you.  Today I visited our mutual psychiatrist and he said more to me today than he has before.  He confirmed the diagnosis and told me I was seeing things as they are.  He didn't help me figure my way out of the problem, but it was good to hear!  I am seeing a therapist on Monday to do more talking and help me figure stuff out. 

Today has been HELL.  Her mother and she are dealing with estate issues of my father in law.  They hate each other and the situation has got very messy.  Guess who recommended a real estate lawyer ... .yea ... .me.  What a mistake.  I am surprised she can still talk with the screaming she has done to me on the phone today.  Now that she's home and I've calmed her down she asks me "What do you think of my life?"  ... .what a set up.  Now she's stormed out pissed that everyone hates her and she's terrible because I said that a lot of people have ___ in their lives and we each have to deal with it as best we can, and yes, you have a lot going on. 

I'm so numb, I think. 

Tomorrow will be fun, it's her birthday!

To answer the attorney question: it's tough to find one so far because as I do google searches nothing good comes up when I search for high conflict personality specialists or anything to do with BPD/personality disorders.  I'll keep at it.

[ForeverDad]

You probably won't find lawyer listed that way.  Don't expect them to advertise, "We handle divorce cases with BPD, NPD, etc."

For sure you don't want a forms-filer or hand-holder lawyer.  You need an experienced lawyer who is assertive, proactive, a problem solver.  My lawyer was a problem solver but his estimate on my divorce was way off.  He estimated 7-9 months and $5K.  It was nearly two years and cost a lot more.  Yet, when he was frustrated he called her a sociopath, crazy, F.Nuts, etc.  Not once did he talk about "PDs".  He never got into those mental health labels.  Even the Custody Evaluator said he was not there to diagnose.  So what did they all do?  They did just as the court handled it, they dealt with the BEHAVIORS.  We are wise to do likewise.  Not that we can't view BPD or some other PDs as likely core issues or even mention likelihood of PDs when it seems appropriate, we just need to FOCUS on the behaviors and their impact on the children, just as court does.

[livednlearned]

Hi ASD,

I just read through your post history to try and get a better understanding of what your relationship with your wife is like.

One strategy that might fit your situation is to ask for a custody evaluation. What happens is a forensic psychiatrist will administer a psych eval to both parents, and then they do home visits (assuming this happens once she has moved out, or you have left) to determine the relationship between kids and parents. The CE then makes a recommendation based on what is discovered. The important part of this is that you want to pick three of the best evaluators, and then give your wife the option to choose. All of this should come from the lawyer, not you. Third-party professionals like custody evaluators have a lot of influence in court decisions about custody, so you want to be sure to get this part right. The benefit of doing a custody evaluation is that it brings the BPD diagnosis to light. You would need an expert witness to then discuss how BPD can have an adverse impact on the kids. This is, of course, an expensive strategy. The unfortunate alternative is seeing what you can get based on your documentation, and then spending a bunch of money over the years going back to court trying to get a better outcome.

There are other strategies. For example, depositions. People with BPD have a hard time sticking to the facts (feelings = facts) and a deposition is a sworn testimony. Your lawyer can then cross-examine her on the stand, which has the effect of undermining her credibility. This is important if she is a high-conflict personality (HCP) -- not all people with BPD are HCPs. However, the false allegation against you, about beating your kids -- that makes it sound like she is HCP. You can read about the theory of the pattern of blame here.

If you can, it would be good to get your kids into therapy. Sometimes people do this by bringing up an issue that the BPD parent will tolerate. I got my son in to see a therapist by saying I was worried he had some behaviors that were like mine. N/BPDx was all over that. You avoid some headaches that can come up when you try to arrange therapy after the split. It sounds like your daughter really takes the brunt of her mom's behavior (scapegoat) while your son is the golden child. They are going to need professional help to process things, and that is likely regardless of whether you divorce or not.

About finding a lawyer -- a word that will help you find an attorney is "parental alienation." HCPs and people with BPD tend to engage in parental alienation, and there are lawyers who will have some experience with this. Your situation is not there yet, but the lawyers who understand parental alienation will likely understand BPD, whether they are familiar with PDs or not, they will definitely be familiar with the behaviors.

However, I think it's best to compare lawyers. You're looking for a lawyer who is assertive, who has a good strategy, and how is realistic about how much this will cost. As much as we all want to hear the divorce won't cost too much, someone who understands BPD will know that this is not going to be cheap. This is the best article I've found in terms of how you want your lawyer (and you) to approach a high-conflict divorce. If you can find someone who sounds like this, that lawyer is likely to "get" what you're dealing with.

Sorry to kitchen sink you with all this information! I hope it's helpful.

[ASD]

It's all helpful.  Thank you all.

I need to get the b@lls to pull it off.  I think I've made the break in my mind... .now to translate into action.

[livednlearned]

It's all helpful.  Thank you all.

I need to get the b@lls to pull it off.  I think I've made the break in my mind... .now to translate into action.

Ooof. That part is hard.

It helps to have a therapist. The split can feel like walking off a cliff.

[whirlpoollife]

ASD, one of my mottos I had ... .The hardest thing I ever did was divorce, the best thing I ever did was divorce.  I thought of divorce for so many years.

When I went into an L's office for the first real time to talk about divorce, I was nervous to the extreme .

But after I had finished the consultation , I felt a bit of power. Not over my ex , but that I had something in me to move foward to go thru with divorce and not just think about it anymore.

But even though I had planned , I did not plan for ex to stay in the house. I did not expect just that part to drag out five months.  I guess I had no idea what to expect.  It should not have taken that long.

Then custody got tied into that at the same time. 

A better L, I feel would of handled it differently. 

So now that you made the decision to leave, you have to plan.  Consult with a few L's first.   have a notebook with questions to ask. Make sure they understand that this is not just a couple falling out of love and need to move on.  Because of the unpredictablilty of pwPD,  ask what if's and how would they handle the situation. 

For when D day arrives, for kids, you can talk to the school counslor and let them know what is going on. The counslor at our elementary had a way of talking to the kids without them knowing that they were being counseled.

[david]

Things to document: your involvement in school functions, meetings, homework (I sign everyone that boys do when with me), who prepares food for the children (breakfast, lunch, and dinner), extracurricular activities, everything you can think of. Having overwhelming evidence in court helps the judge make a good decision. Also, have a plan for what you are trying to achieve. Make sure you include time with their mom. Have a schedule figured out with all holidays. My schedule includes all major holidays. We rotate from year to year. The Christmas , Thanksgiving, spring break holiday is split 50/50 if there is an even number of days. If there is an odd number of days that gets rotated year to year.

Our court order allows modifications only when both parents agree in an email. This eliminates my ex saying she did not agree with something since I have it in writing.

[catnap]

Things to document: your involvement in school functions, meetings, homework (I sign everyone that boys do when with me), who prepares food for the children (breakfast, lunch, and dinner), extracurricular activities, everything you can think of. Having overwhelming evidence in court helps the judge make a good decision. Also, have a plan for what you are trying to achieve. Make sure you include time with their mom. Have a schedule figured out with all holidays. My schedule includes all major holidays. We rotate from year to year. The Christmas , Thanksgiving, spring break holiday is split 50/50 if there is an even number of days. If there is an odd number of days that gets rotated year to year.

Our court order allows modifications only when both parents agree in an email. This eliminates my ex saying she did not agree with something since I have it in writing.

Also document things that Mom does that directly affect the children.  How she treats them, if she rages, demeans, makes inappropriate comments to them, etc.  Has the therapist mentioned how much contact with Mom would be the healthiest for the children? 

[david]

If I had to do it all over I would have recorded all ex's rages, etc. without her knowing. I could not use it in court but it would have been a real help in the custody eval. My ex was very good at appearing one way in public and very nasty in private.

[ASD]

Oh boy.  Guys I've been off here since the day after her birthday.  That day she had a major meltdown and then things got much better.  I knew it wouldn't last and it hasn't.  Different day same story.  I cannot keep doing it.  You know what?  I am getting to the point that I don't think it's a choice for me anymore but rather I have an obligation to protect my children.  Today's rage was about her mother but guess who caught Hell for it?  Our daughter.  I am going to talk to our therapist/psychiatrist when I see him next and tell him that the next time this happens I'll be calling him asking him to have her sent to some sort of evaluation/in-patient facility.  I can't let the kids be around that. 

So, while I have too many other things going on, I am going to start looking in earnest for an attorney.  Your advice is certainly noted.  I started a journal earlier this year about all the rages and also all the things I do.  I often sign homework.  I get the kids up every morning, prepare breakfast, take them to school, pick up most days and put to bed every night.  I take our son to soccer 2x week to soccer and sometimes our daughter to dance on Saturdays. 

I'm trying to tell myself that I cannot worry about how she's going to be but I have to focus on the children and me.  I know she'll fall apart without me, she hates her mother and can't hold a job.

[ForeverDad]

Oh boy.  Guys I've been off here since the day after her birthday.  That day she had a major meltdown and then things got much better.  I knew it wouldn't last and it hasn't.

Birthdays, holidays, weddings, anniversaries, funerals, vacations, moves and a long list other events can trigger incidents.  And sometimes we can't even discern a trigger, showing clearly it isn't us or others, the real triggers are her internal issues.

I am getting to the point that I don't think it's a choice for me anymore but rather I have an obligation to protect my children.  Today's rage was about her mother but guess who caught Hell for it?  Our daughter.

Yes, that's why this site is "bpdfamily.com". :'(

I know she'll fall apart without me, she hates her mother and can't hold a job.

I too felt that but I was wrong.  In the final year or two of my marriage she was frequently moaning, groaning, in bed, on the couch, ranting and raging, kicking doors, doorknobs through walls, etc.  I thought she'd fall apart but she didn't.  And she hated her mother because she put abuser stepfather ahead of her and her sister.  My ex did all that because I was enabling her.  Once we separated, she transformed from waif into queen/witch, into allegation-maker, I lost count of them all with so many agencies, but never heard a peep about moaning and groaning since.

Whatever she might do or be, waif or witch, she is an adult.  Court will not expect you to be her caregiver.  However, court will expect there to be caregivers for the children.  If you don't step forward seeking as much parenting as possible, she will likely get it by default as Mother and even likely to try to block your parenting.  Be aware, beware.

[ASD]

You guys really are awesome.  Thank you. 

Today it's as if nothing ever happened.  Acting as normal as she can. 

I have to be disciplined with my note taking.  I'll get a recording device too.  I have a list of 3 attorneys to talk to too.  It'll feel real when I go to those appointments.   

Thank you, from my heart. 

[jedimaster]

I started recording my stbexw about the time I started contemplating divorce.  Not necessarily with the intent of using it in court or against her directly, but so that I could listen later, outside the heat of the moment, and review and remember what happened.  You could use recordings to help you create a very detailed written journal with specific quotes and objective descriptions of what was going on at the time.  If your memory is like mine the timestamps alone are worth the effort.  My W is capable of talking/arguing so fast and dragging a conversation around in so many random directions that a recording is almost a necessity to keep track of what actually happened.

In the last few months I lived with her, we each had a "space" in our master bedroom where we worked or spent the evenings.  That was where a lot of the crazy discussions took place.  I set up a recording app on my laptop and placed an icon in the taskbar so all I had to do was click it while I was working and let it run.  Afterwards I saved copies in a safe place.  I suggest a Google Drive account with a strong password and an email address known only to you.  That way you can have access to them from anywhere and you can even delete them from your computer if you need to.  Good luck!