questions

[OffRoad]

His rants are about making the decision of where to eat. He tells me he mentions places but I ignore him and go where I want to go. BUT I hear the conversation differently! I hear him say "I don't care", "you pick", "I'll eat anything"... .so I choose. Than he screams he picked a couple places and as usual we're going where You want.

BBM: This may be your problem.  In this other post, he DID mention places. BBM:

We get in the car and before I pull out of the driveway I ask "where are we going, what sounds good?". He says he'd love a good burrito. I say, so would I but there isn't anywhere around here to get one. He mentions two places both places we've gone to and disliked. I say something like "we didn't like either place, what else sounds good?".

What happened here is he just told you two places he thought would be good and you told him he was wrong, those place aren't good. There is nothing good that will come of that. Again, he might actually like the food at either of those two places, but if you don't, he just thinks you think his opinion is wrong. Or he might not like the food there, but instead of saying "WE didn't like the food either place." you might try ":)id you like the food you got there last time?".

I have bolded some things that would be a problem for me and my H in this post:

We get in the car and before I pull out of the driveway I ask "where are we going, what sounds good?". He says he'd love a good burrito. I say, so would I but there isn't anywhere around here to get one. He mentions two places both places we've gone to and disliked. I say something like "we didn't like either place, If this were H and I, I just told him what he did or didn't like-nothing good happens there. what else sounds good?". Then he mentions gyros and I say "YES, that sounds really good", "but there's nothing there that you like". Again, I just told him what he did or didn't like"Where else can we go, what's ___ like?" He says "we could go to Chubbys" He just suggested something-good for him to want to try a different place (a place we've never gone to that does have gyros so maybe they have something he'd like). I say "great" and start to head there.

I get to the fork in the road where I turn one way for Chubbys or the other way for Mexican. I say, "this is silly, you don't like gyros why don't we go to the Mexican restaurant instead". So far in this conversation, your H has suggested two Mexican restaurants and been told he is wrong to select those, been told that even though he suggested gyros that was a bad idea because there was nothing there he liked and suggested Chubbys and you overrode his decision, because you knew what he really wanted. And I drive that direction. We get less than a mile down the road and he starts raging at me.

 Maybe you should let him choose a place that he thinks he likes or knows YOU like and just let it be on him if he doesn't like it. But let him actually choose it without you telling him he doesn't know what he is talking about.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[babyducks]

I don't want to hijack the thread but I wanted to say I have found this topic very helpful and enlightening, working my way through it I have gained some insights into what has gone on in my r/s in the past, so thanks Jean for getting the ball rolling and doing all the hard work of keeping the topic going.   

[vortex of confusion]

What happened here is he just told you two places he thought would be good and you told him he was wrong, those place aren't good. There is nothing good that will come of that. Again, he might actually like the food at either of those two places, but if you don't, he just thinks you think his opinion is wrong. Or he might not like the food there, but instead of saying "WE didn't like the food either place." you might try ":)id you like the food you got there last time?".

I was rereading this and reminded of something else that I have been working on, which is to throw out the word WE. If you didn't like the food, then say, "I didn't like the food there last time." Don't hide from taking responsibility for your preferences by using we. I used to be really, really bad at this. Really, it is a sign of enmeshment. My husband and I both used we because both of us were in this messed up entangled enmeshment. I didn't know where I ended and he began and he didn't know where he ended and I began. When that stuff starts getting untangled, it becomes easier to ask questions like ":)id you like the food there last time?" It doesn't matter if they remember it wrong or change their mind. Let them express the opinion and then go with it.

So far in this conversation, your H has suggested two Mexican restaurants and been told he is wrong to select those, been told that even though he suggested gyros that was a bad idea because there was nothing there he liked and suggested Chubbys and you overrode his decision, because you knew what he really wanted. . . . Maybe you should let him choose a place that he thinks he likes or knows YOU like and just let it be on him if he doesn't like it. But let him actually choose it without you telling him he doesn't know what he is talking about.

MIND READING!  I can't read my husband's mind and he can't read mine. I am my own person and he is his own person. The only person that knows what I truly want is ME. The only person that knows what my husband truly wants is my husband. I am saying that for my benefit because I have been very guilty of trying to be a mind reader in the past.

[waverider]

Jean you will find a lot of these points raised to be only very subtle. BPD triggers often are. Even the best of us cannot avoid them all, this is where recognition in hindsight is important as that allows us to accept out part (even if minor) in the dynamics which lowers frustration and reduces escalation.

Sometimes when we are wary of triggering someone we are reluctant to speak our thoughts and we also fall into the trap of thinking we have expressed our thoughts, when what we actually said was a twisted (attempted censoring) version with subconscious tones to it. This simply fuels the strain on the already fragile communications path.

Add in the Ground Hog Day factor and we have the "here we go again" short fuse already lit ready to blow. So does your partner. Only by doing things completely differently, even though it may cause transitional chaos, can each party start to ease their fingers off their respective triggers.

I got so bad that my "here we go again" fuse was starting to blow even before my partner had done or said anything. That was my crisis moment. Endless painting me with the persecutor tag had eventually transformed me into one.

Going back to how I dealt with your scenario, I had to let things go and stop trying to rescue the situation. Let my partner make a suggestion and do it. If she wouldn't we did'nt go anywhere. I let her choose what to eat if she didn't we ate nothing. Let these be a good choices or not, doesn't matter, better than fighting over it. Very reluctant at first, but eventually came to see it as respecting her needs rather than trying to control and direct them.

pwBPD can end up hand balling all responsibilities and decisions over to others, and we pick up the bags. But its never enough there are always more bags and we get overloaded.

[waverider]

I was rereading this and reminded of something else that I have been working on, which is to throw out the word WE. If you didn't like the food, then say, "I didn't like the food there last time." Don't hide from taking responsibility for your preferences by using we. I used to be really, really bad at this.

This too, I personally start to get triggered when included as part of a "we" thought, especially as I hold a lot of personal opinions back out of necessity.

Keep in mind a pwBPD's lack of consistency of thought. They may have expressed a dislike of something yesterday, but today it may seem like a great idea. attempting to encompass this in a consensus of opinion is a disaster waiting to happen

[JeanSchimmel]

BBM: This may be your problem.  In this other post, he DID mention places. BBM:

(I'm not used to this forums quote system, so I keep doing this wrong, please have patience I'll eventually figure it out)

First I don't know what BBM means (I tried to look it up but didn't find the answer)?

"What happened here is he just told you two places he thought would be good and you told him he was wrong, those place aren't good. There is nothing good that will come of that. Again, he might actually like the food at either of those two places, but if you don't, he just thinks you think his opinion is wrong. Or he might not like the food there, but instead of saying "WE didn't like the food either place." you might try ":)id you like the food you got there last time?"."

He doesn't like the food at the two places he mentioned (I'm certain of that). The last time we attempted to go to one of them, after being seated and before we ordered he insisted we walk out. I'm not as picky of an eater as he is, at all. I may have said "we don't like the food there" as a reminder, I will be conscience of my phrasing a lot more in the future.

" Maybe you should let him choose a place that he thinks he likes or knows YOU like and just let it be on him if he doesn't like it. But let him actually choose it without you telling him he doesn't know what he is talking about."

I do let him choose, I do let it be on him if he doesn't like it/or something. When I don't remind him of not liking something (or a dish has ingredients in it he doesn't like) he rages because he's got something he can't eat/doesn't like. He gets up making a scene in public and throws his food out. Then unless I want to be left with-out a ride home, I have to stop eating and go home with him. So I feel like I get his rage whether I help him or not. So I "try" to take the path of least pain and help him before hand.

I can see how that might not be right, I've got to think on that for a while... .and learn how to change my behavior.

[JeanSchimmel]

Thanks Babyducks. I'm trying.

Waverider; my ground hogs day is 'walking on egg shells'. I immediately understood the meaning of that title with-out having a clue about BPD. I knew/know that's the story of my life.

First it was my Father, now it's my H. It isn't me alone feeling that from those two people, so I know it's more than my own feelings/reactions. My siblings walked on egg shells too and that ran away from our "home" as fast as they could at 18. My husbands daughter and sister (his only blood relatives) walk on egg shells with my H too. They barely have contact with him.

, "Going back to how I dealt with your scenario, I had to let things go and stop trying to rescue the situation. Let my partner make a suggestion and do it. If she wouldn't we did'nt go anywhere. I let her choose what to eat if she didn't we ate nothing. Let these be a good choices or not, doesn't matter, better than fighting over it. Very reluctant at first, but eventually came to see it as respecting her needs rather than trying to control and direct them."

I'm completely stuck! I get 'rage' from H in every situation when he's in the mood to rage.

I can wake up and walk into the family room to be by my H and the instant I walk into the room he starts raging. I've barely got my eyes open and he's full out rage. On the other hand sometimes he sits there and says "hes got anxiety" "doesn't know why, can't stop it, etc... .". His emotions rule him 24/7, sometimes the emotions are a reaction to something and just as often his emotions are biological and he frustrated with himself that he can't control it. I used to think it was something wrong with his hormones, that it was uncontrollable for him and cyles. He does have a thyroid problem and is on med.'s... .that hasn't made a change in his emotions, so that thought went out of my mind.

[JeanSchimmel]

Sadly or happily depending upon your perspective. The only times my H can control is rage is around our pets.

We inherited a 14 yr. old dog (who has since passed). In time my spouse realized the dog was scared to death of him. She wouldn't go near him and when he got loud she'd run out of the room. That really hurt his feelings that the dog was scared of him. So he changed his behavior around her. I couldn't believe he could do that but he honestly did. If I accidently spoke loudly (laughing, etc... ) he'd remind me that the dog was scared of our noises.

Same thing (to a slightly lesser degree) with our two cats. The minute he gets mad they run. He now see this and it does reel him in.

But he can't make the connection that I feel like the pets, hurt and scared. I've asked him to think about it, I've cried asking him to have treat me as well as the dog. Nothing, no response, I am the human punching bag because everything that is wrong in his life is my fault.

"They may have expressed a dislike of something yesterday, but today it may seem like a great idea." Strangely my uBPD S doesn't ever waiver. It's always black and white and they never seem to flip flop.

So, yes I do want to change and be more conscience of my part in what goes wrong in my marriage. But there's only so much blame I'm going to own. I do want input and help from everyone here that's why I keep writing... .It seems fair to disagree with well meaning ideas suggested here if they don't fit.

[waverider]

So, yes I do want to change and be more conscience of my part in what goes wrong in my marriage. But there's only so much blame I'm going to own. I do want input and help from everyone here that's why I keep writing... .It seems fair to disagree with well meaning ideas suggested here if they don't fit.

Firstly don't label it as blame. It is a word best avoided. Thinking it more of an awareness of your part in the dynamics. There isn't always a way around it, but an awareness of the mechanics makes it easier to cope with. It also makes it easier resolve. It is also a lot clearer where to make boundaries. Blame tends to make you think your actions are wrong. Rather thinking of it as being aware of your part is more risk management, rather than risk avoidance (which is walking on eggshells)

You have only been aware of this disorder for a short time, it will take sometime start getting a real handle on it. Any changes you make are likely to make it seem worse at first until new ways become the normal.

[babyducks]

I'm completely stuck! I get 'rage' from H in every situation when he's in the mood to rage.

I can wake up and walk into the family room to be by my H and the instant I walk into the room he starts raging. I've barely got my eyes open and he's full out rage. On the other hand sometimes he sits there and says "hes got anxiety" "doesn't know why, can't stop it, etc... .". His emotions rule him 24/7, ... .

Hi Jean,

This part struck a chord with me.   

There was a time in my r/s that my partner had been deregulated for an extended period and was emotionally quite raw as a result.   It appeared she was having a very difficult time returning to baseline.   And finally she dissociated to the point where she looked pretty psychotic.   At that point I just had to stay away.   It wasn't good for either one of us to be exposed to the other.  So sometimes even when both parties are making the best possible effort things go wrong.   That's pretty much the classic definition of a mental illness.

What I learned here is that people with BPD use conflict as a way of expressing their emotions and to keep you engaged in their chaos.   I have noticed that when I find things quiet and peaceful my partner views them as empty and void.   So in your example,  my partner would be capable of choosing a restaurant she didn't like and 'forgetting' ingredients she didn't like to keep the chaos going.   It's a maladaptive coping trait to be sure.   And it's a double bind.   

Hang in there.   

'ducks   

 

[JeanSchimmel]

Big group hug, thank-you all, you're really helping me understand alot!

I have a super busy weekend as a chef because it's Easter so I won't be here for a few days. I'll be back to continue this conversation sorting things out, I hope you all will still be here!

thanks... .I really do appreciate your input!

[OffRoad]

What I learned here is that people with BPD use conflict as a way of expressing their emotions and to keep you engaged in their chaos.   I have noticed that when I find things quiet and peaceful my partner views them as empty and void.   So in your example,  my partner would be capable of choosing a restaurant she didn't like and 'forgetting' ingredients she didn't like to keep the chaos going.   It's a maladaptive coping trait to be sure.   And it's a double bind.   

Hang in there.   

'ducks   

 

BBM (Bold By Me)":That is a fascinating observation. I'm going to have to think about this one, as my H thinks things should always be "happy", yet the more "happy" things are, the more likely he is to try to stir things up.

[OffRoad]

So I "try" to take the path of least pain and help him before hand.

I really empathize with this. I found that I just had to let crappy things happen sometimes, and reserve the taking charge portion of the program for the important things (like getting to weddings on time, making sure the children got fed, maintenance of the vehicle, etc). It must be really hard when your H rages, though. Mine will occasionally lose it in public, but it isn't a full on rage. It's more like a petulant child.

Hope your busy weekend is also a happy weekend.

[townhouse]

"Hugs" to Jean and everyone who has replied. It's been great reading all this and I appreciate so much learning from everyone.