Wondering about when something is sexual abuse (warning, may trigger)

[Depression = 72% of members]

In the aftermath of having spent a lot of time coming to terms with growing up with uNPD/uBPD mom, I have done a lot of thinking about the following: When is it ok to feel sexually abused?

I know this is not a question with a simple or definitive answer, but it's just something that has taken up a lot of space in my head recently. My mother didn't abuse me sexually in any overt or easily recognisable way, but thinking back there are just such a wealth of episodes that make me go... .ugh.

Making me sleep in her bed close to her until I was about 12 years old while she was wearing a short nightgown, but no underwear. Always caressing my thigh when sitting next to me on a couch. Kissing me on the mouth in a way that I would never kiss anyone I was not romantically involved with (just writing this makes me want to throw up... .), never as a child or teenager permitting me to lock the bathroom door, walking in on me when I was showering, etc.

I have very limited contact with her nowadays, but when I see her today, I never allow her to touch me - it makes me feel physically sick and violated, instantly, even if it's just a handshake. Can anyone relate to these confused feelings?

[Sofie]

In the aftermath of having spent a lot of time coming to terms with growing up with uNPD/uBPD mom, I have done a lot of thinking about the following: When is it ok to feel sexually abused?

I know this is not a question with a simple or definitive answer, but it's just something that has taken up a lot of space in my head recently. My mother didn't abuse me sexually in any overt or easily recognisable way, but thinking back there are just such a wealth of episodes that make me go... .ugh.

Making me sleep in her bed close to her until I was about 12 years old while she was wearing a short nightgown, but no underwear. Always caressing my thigh when sitting next to me on a couch. Kissing me on the mouth in a way that I would never kiss anyone I was not romantically involved with (just writing this makes me want to throw up... .), never as a child or teenager permitting me to lock the bathroom door, walking in on me when I was showering, etc.

I have very limited contact with her nowadays, but when I see her today, I never allow her to touch me - it makes me feel physically sick and violated, instantly, even if it's just a handshake. Can anyone relate to these confused feelings?

[Maternus]

Can anyone relate to these confused feelings?

Yes, I can. It's like with emotional or verbal abuse. Most people think abuse has to be physical - beating a child is child abuse and raping a child is sexual abuse. I was sexually abused by my father and the first abuse was, that he took me and my sister on a trip to the countryside with his new girlfriend to show me and my sister what sex is. He slept with his girlfriend in front of us. He didn't touch us, did not rape our bodies, but it was sexual abuse, he used his children as objects for his sexual pleasure. What your mother did to you was also sexual abuse. It was an assault on your own sexual development and a reckless disregard of your boundaries and needs as a child and teenager.

[isilme]

My parents were bad about what seems to be called "emotional incest", which alone makes me feel kinda of ill, but nothing really stands out as actual sexual contact.  My mom was always worried for some reason I was going to be 'noticed' by Dad, but that could also just reflect both her unhealthy jealousy of me as another female (she started this when I was 4, telling me weird stuff), and also, knowing that Dad's boundaries were not really healthy.  As a family, we'd watch stripper contest videos he'd rent from the local video store.  I was about 10?  Their filtering of age appropriate content and conversation was non existant, and in many ways, I was expected to emotionally fill in the blanks where either one was lacking in their marraige.  I was mom's emoitonal supply, and dad's extra wife.   

[Sofie]

Thank you for reply, Maternus. I am appalled to hear what your father subjected you to... .how absolutely horrible for you. I don't know... .in one way I feel validated by others recognising that yes, I was subjected to sexual abuse, on the other hand it's just really tough... .so many situations growing up that my mind flees from recognizing as sexually abusive, because it makes my skin crawl to do so. Contrary to what your father did to you, I don't think my mother ever recognised that what she subjected me to was sexual in nature... .I think it was all about her filling her need for closeness and not wanting me to separate from her.

[Maternus]

Hi Sofie,

caressing your thigh and kissing you on the mouth in the way you described it, is nothing a normal parent does with his child. Parents hug and kiss their children, but there is never - NEVER! - a sexual element in it. I think the problem is, that we didn't see the difference, when we were a child. But in hindsight we see, that something was odd. We remember, that our parents did something to us, that is not normal. But we thought that it is normal - or even enjoyable - when it happened to us. It was mum or dad and they say it is ok, we are safe, this is something special, other parents don't allow their children to see this or to get so close to them. The hardest part of this is the betrayal of your basic trust as a child.

[Harri]

Hi Sophie.  I have read in several places that the motivation for female sexual abusers is rarely sexual or power based.  It seems to revolve more around a need for affection, tenderness and closeness. 

When you are ready, google 'covert sexual abuse'.  One article that came up is: “The Best Kept Secret: Mother-Daughter Sexual Abuse”  Julie Brand, M.S.,  CAPER Consulting: Child Abuse Prevention, Education and Recovery 14215 North 107th Street Longmont, Colorado 80504

www.caperconsulting.comwww.

www.nationalcac.org/professionals/images/stories/handouts2009/brand,%20julie%20-%20the%20best%20kept%20secret.pdf

I just did a quick scan and pages 4 and 5 outline some characteristics of female sexual abusers and includes examples of such behaviors.

Female instigated sexual abuse is, I believe, far more prevalent than most people believe and is often difficult for those abused to label the behaviors as sexual abuse.  Sexual abuse does not have to involve physical touch or penetration. 

[zundertowz]

wow some of the things in covert really sounds like my ex... .I always thought it was wierd a mother and daughter giving each other foot rubs?  Am i wrong?

[isilme]

Wow.

I just read up to the " Covert Sexually Abusive Behaviors"  Mom did almost all, Dad did quite a few - the Overt Behaviors do not fit anything I remember, but the Covert ones... .  .  No wonder I feel safer with NC.  I've admitted to emotional and physical abuse and neglect.  I did not realize the neglect was what it was for years, until my peers started marrying and raising families - seeing them with their children and realizing how much I was ignored and left to fend for my self has become evident.  Now this.   

I knew they were inappropriate, but had always stated at least they didn't abuse me sexually, thinking touch was needed for that to be true.  The I learned a little about emotional incest, which sounds horrible, but I took to mean having the "wifey/BFF" role for emotional support thrust upon me.  But reading it like this - I'm kind feeling sick, now.  NO wonder I'm afraid to be a mom and have kids.  Nothing I learned as a kid, unless it was on my own, can be trusted to be right or healthy.

[Turkish]

Shocking paper, Harri. I noticed that some of the government links in the references no longer exist (hmm).

I noticed the references to bathroom habits.

We just got D2, almost 3, potty trained. She asks for help to get her on the toilet, then says, "go away!" when she is going. That's normal and healthy. Of course I go away, until she says ":)one!" She's almost tall enough to do this herself. If anything, she doesn't respect when I'm in the bathroom! She's very clingy still and wants me attention almost all of the time.

S5 said a few months ago to help wipe him. I said, "you can wipe yourself, you're a big boy now." He said that Mommy wipes him. She asked me to do this for him (because if he is slightly irritated down there, it's the end of the world, of course). I said no. I said that he can clean himself at bath time, but that I wasn't going to wipe him. They're young enough that I bathe them together. I'll probably stop this in about a year.

[Harri]

Hi again. 

Zundertowz, it is hard to say if the foot massage is normal or not.  I know a few people who did that sort of thing with their mother/father, but it was not in any way abusive.  I'm no expert so take what I say with that in mind.  I think that the emotional context is important.  Boundary violations are very common and consistent elements of being raised by a BPD parent.  Add to that someone with no sense of self and therefore no understanding of where they end in relation to others, and there is a very high chance of seeing the very behaviors talked about in the article I posted.  (BTW, I chose that article because the content is consistent with stuff I have read on the subject over the years and it was in an easy to read and condensed form.  I am not familiar with the author/presenter, but the info included in the article is pretty standard.)

Sophie,

I have very limited contact with her nowadays, but when I see her today, I never allow her to touch me - it makes me feel physically sick and violated, instantly, even if it's just a handshake. Can anyone relate to these confused feelings?

IMO, your feelings are spot on given the examples you wrote.  In that sense I do not see them as being confused at all.  If you are not sure how to categorize your experiences or are reluctant to use the term sexual abuse to do so, I do understand why you would call them confused.  You get to label your experiences though.  Sorting through this stuff is very difficult and it can be confusing. 

Maternus, your experience of having you watch your father have sex with his girlfriend is horrible.  It is too twisted for me to even find the words to discuss it.  It also brings to mind how my mother said she thought she was going to have to teach my brother how to have sex (He had a medical condition that caused very delayed puberty so he was not interested in girls until much much later than normal).  I have no idea if she ever did teach him anything or not but I do know that she did sexually abuse him in other ways.

Which brings up another very hidden and often ignored aspect of sexual abuse:  Mother - Son sexual abuse.  I am seeing more and more news articles about female sexual abusers though, so I do think awareness is increasing.  Still, so many guys I know lost their virginity to their older babysitters or the neighborhood "hot mom" or "hot lady" but do not see it as abuse.  It is still seen as a male rite of passage sort of thing. 

Turkish, I think you are doing very well with your kids.  It must be hard though when co-parenting with your ex who sees things so differently.   Your son will learn to be more thorough   and certainly if there is irritation to be dealt with (not that I want him to be uncomfortable!)  Kids... .gotta love them.  They have so few inhibitions!  I like that your daughter says go away... .and the fact that she tries to follow *you* is totally normal too.  Too stinkin' cute!   

[zundertowz]

My ex was also pretty liberal with getting dressed in front of her kids and the in and out of the bathroom now that i think about it.  Yuck I feel ill.

[Harri]

Yes, it can be pretty disturbing.  

Isilme, I could have sworn I posted to you.  I would suggest reading more articles on the subject when you can.   Some people who have experienced what is labeled 'covert sexual abuse' are more comfortable with terms like 'inappropriate sexual' behaviors.  I am of the belief that whatever terms helps you to put the experience into a workable context is okay as long as you are not denying, minimizing or hiding from the actual experiences.  This is not easy stuff to talk about, acknowledge, accept.  

NO wonder I'm afraid to be a mom and have kids.  Nothing I learned as a kid, unless it was on my own, can be trusted to be right or healthy.

Boy can i relate to this. I think though, that more often than not, when we do work on ourselves, like you do here, we do not go on to abuse our own kids.  The key though is to work on things.  There are so many other ways to learn healthy parenting skills.  also, this site is a great place to learn skills and using the tools here will certainly teach us a lot about boundaries and validation which are so important for good parenting.  The good news is, you are now aware that lots of the stuff you grew up with was not right, right?  

[zundertowz]

Is this something you would suggest calling cps about? there was also drug use in the house.

[Ziggiddy]

Hi Sofie

In the process of discovery, a lot BPD behaviours take on new meaning and you see things in  new light. I just would add to trust your gut instincts. You grew up with certain behaviour that you thought was normal but even then some of it was disturbing to you. If something doesn't feel right, it's not right.

[Pingo]

What about when it's your uBPDm who was overtly and covertly sexually abused as a child by her parents and brother and tells you all about it, with a fair amount of detail, from an early age? I grew up feeling like I had been sexually abused and thought perhaps I had repressed memories or something. Now, I think it was from hearing about my mother's abuse and I took it on as my own in some way. My mom was so mistrustful of men and warned me to never trust a man, including my own father. So when he showed me any affection (only when he had a few drinks) I felt so uncomfortable with it. It felt creepy. In her mind she was protecting me by telling me all this stuff but what it did is really screw me up! I had no idea what was appropriate or inappropriate so no wonder I never learned to trust my own feelings!

wow some of the things in covert really sounds like my ex... .I always thought it was wierd a mother and daughter giving each other foot rubs?  Am i wrong?

I don't think this is necessarily inappropriate in and of itself. I have a s10 who loves a foot rub, head scratch, back rub. My d21 still loves it when I play with her long hair... .there's nothing inappropriate about it. But I can see how it could be if there is no respect for boundaries between parent and child.

[maemo]

In the aftermath of having spent a lot of time coming to terms with growing up with uNPD/uBPD mom, I have done a lot of thinking about the following: When is it ok to feel sexually abused?

I know this is not a question with a simple or definitive answer, but it's just something that has taken up a lot of space in my head recently. My mother didn't abuse me sexually in any overt or easily recognisable way, but thinking back there are just such a wealth of episodes that make me go... . ugh.

Making me sleep in her bed close to her until I was about 12 years old while she was wearing a short nightgown, but no underwear. Always caressing my thigh when sitting next to me on a couch. Kissing me on the mouth in a way that I would never kiss anyone I was not romantically involved with (just writing this makes me want to throw up... . ), never as a child or teenager permitting me to lock the bathroom door, walking in on me when I was showering, etc.

I have very limited contact with her nowadays, but when I see her today, I never allow her to touch me - it makes me feel physically sick and violated, instantly, even if it's just a handshake. Can anyone relate to these confused feelings?

Hi Sofie,

Your post really resonated with me. Thanks for sharing. I can relate to your confused feelings, and to your experience. Like you, and like many others who have posted in this thread, my mother committed similar violations.

You asked, "When is it OK to feel sexually abused?" I struggled with that question for a long time because much of the abuse I went through was what is labelled "covert sexual abuse". It's quite insidious, and *very* confusing.

My mother also made me sleep with her often in the same bed. She also was naked quite often around the house, even when my brother and I explicitly said it made us uncomfortable. She also did the bathroom thing you mentioned - leaving the door open, talking about her hygiene, walking in on us when we were bathing, etc. She also often insisted on being with me in dressing rooms even though I explicitly told her I didn't want that (when I was 11 - 13, very much old enough to be by myself). She would get angry (and I was scared of her) if I insisted. I consider all of those actions sexual abuse. There was more that occurred, but I don't feel comfortable posting more than that here.

Unfortunately for people who have experienced female sexual abuse, society is very much convinced (at large) to believe that this kind of abuse is "softer" or non-existent, or that it impacts sexual orientation. All of that is hogwash, but I want to mention it, because as I came to the acceptance & realization that I was sexually abused, some of peoples reactions were very invalidating.

I have relatives who, when they read a newspaper article about abuse, go, "Oh that's terrible! He should be in prison for life!" but when I disclosed my story to them, in hope for support, they just buried it and withdrew from me until I stopped talking about it. :/ Funny how that works!