A sane place for me.

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

So after all my fretting and sweating and thinking and reading and catastrophizing and procrastinating (she says as she scratches at her fleas!) I've made my hope to find a safe haven a reality, and my BPDh knows and I have a place secured.

He seems to be more detached from me, which is a big relief and really scary all at the same time.  I can't wait to start work and move forward, but I know until then, I'm faced with him playing the victim. 

_______________

I just told my son.  He understood completely and said H was being a dick.     I love my boy!

My H has a friend whose wife is living 4500 miles away for work, and they aren't 'legally separated' either.  I've been wanting to call him, and let him know what's going on, so he can be there for my H.  I know it isn't my place to do so, but maybe I'll suggest we have him out for supper some night this week... .plant the seed 

I'm trying not to feel guilty... .we all need a place to feel safe, and if it can't be in the family home, than it isn't wrong to find it elsewhere, right?

I feel like I need to apply what I've learned about rescuing vs enabling vs validating and reassuring really closely.  I mostly know when I've done something wrong because of the way he reacts, it's like a red light going off for me now.  I retract, and apply SET or make a statement that is non-JADEing and validating and we can seem to move forward, most of the time.

It is hard work to do this stuff.  It's so not easy.  My emotions are all over the place.  Panic seems to sit right under my skin, waiting to pounce.  The more I stay focused on the goal, the easier it is.  And the more I can stay positive.

____________________

Now my H just called.  It was a route call, with the routine I love yous, as our goodbyes.  Maybe I really am worrying too much over this.  Maybe simply not changing how I show my love for him, and doing things like I normally do, is enough.

I feel like I should have an idea of what I want accomplished both as a couple and as me by the time fall is coming to a close again.  I'll need to make a list of priorities and goals.  I'm going to include things for us to work on, just in the off chance that this shocker is enough to kick his butt into actually working towards change.  I accept that he may not, but I don't have to have brick walls up if he's willing to open the door, right?  I can know what to say if he asks what he can work on in himself that would make things better for me without expecting him to ask.  To me, this is being prepared.

[Crumbling]

So after all my fretting and sweating and thinking and reading and catastrophizing and procrastinating (she says as she scratches at her fleas!) I've made my hope to find a safe haven a reality, and my BPDh knows and I have a place secured.

He seems to be more detached from me, which is a big relief and really scary all at the same time.  I can't wait to start work and move forward, but I know until then, I'm faced with him playing the victim. 

_______________

I just told my son.  He understood completely and said H was being a dick.     I love my boy!

My H has a friend whose wife is living 4500 miles away for work, and they aren't 'legally separated' either.  I've been wanting to call him, and let him know what's going on, so he can be there for my H.  I know it isn't my place to do so, but maybe I'll suggest we have him out for supper some night this week... .plant the seed 

I'm trying not to feel guilty... .we all need a place to feel safe, and if it can't be in the family home, than it isn't wrong to find it elsewhere, right?

I feel like I need to apply what I've learned about rescuing vs enabling vs validating and reassuring really closely.  I mostly know when I've done something wrong because of the way he reacts, it's like a red light going off for me now.  I retract, and apply SET or make a statement that is non-JADEing and validating and we can seem to move forward, most of the time.

It is hard work to do this stuff.  It's so not easy.  My emotions are all over the place.  Panic seems to sit right under my skin, waiting to pounce.  The more I stay focused on the goal, the easier it is.  And the more I can stay positive.

____________________

Now my H just called.  It was a route call, with the routine I love yous, as our goodbyes.  Maybe I really am worrying too much over this.  Maybe simply not changing how I show my love for him, and doing things like I normally do, is enough.

I feel like I should have an idea of what I want accomplished both as a couple and as me by the time fall is coming to a close again.  I'll need to make a list of priorities and goals.  I'm going to include things for us to work on, just in the off chance that this shocker is enough to kick his butt into actually working towards change.  I accept that he may not, but I don't have to have brick walls up if he's willing to open the door, right?  I can know what to say if he asks what he can work on in himself that would make things better for me without expecting him to ask.  To me, this is being prepared.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel like I should have an idea of what I want accomplished both as a couple and as me by the time fall is coming to a close again.  I'll need to make a list of priorities and goals.  I'm going to include things for us to work on, just in the off chance that this shocker is enough to kick his butt into actually working towards change.

Time to work on some more detachment for yourself--this is a good thing to think about, but if you ask the question that way, it is really hard to come up with a good answer!

When it comes to your husband changing and growing... . try this one on for size:

It is his job to decide what sort of changes he wants to make and what sort of growth he wants to do. Let him figure it out, and let him do it. Perhaps he will share his process with you, or perhaps he won't. If he does make real chances, you will see the results either way.

If he brings it up, let him know that you trust him to figure out what he needs to work on himself, and that you care and will give him all the support you can.

I once heard somebody say that they wanted the kind of r/s where their partner supported them in the sort of growth and changes they wanted to make. (and vise-versa)

Think about it--You are figuring out what sort of changes you want to make in yourself, Crumbling. You don't want suggestions in that department from your husband! And many of the changes you are making you want to work on and process in safe environments away from your husband. (Like these forums, or when talking to other friends, or your own therapy.)

So... . back to your original statement... . try this version on for size... .

I want to figure out what I want to work on both as an individual and as a partner in my marriage by the fall.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Crumbling, I admire your courage.  On some level, I think we all need a safe haven.  I call it my "happy place."  Some refer to it as one's "bubble."  It's a safe space where one feels secure and buffered.  It's a zone of peace, defined by one's boundaries.  In the bubble, you are self-preserved and self-determined, which are all positive things, in my view.  Oh, and don't forget to invite in the things that make you happy.

LuckyJim

[Crumbling]

 

Thanks for the words of encouragement and advice.  I couldn't be doing this without support, both from this site and my 'C' Team.

I never imagined that my H would be on board the way he is.  Of course, it's all just words until I actually go... . but still.  I expected all he! to break loose, and it hasn't.  That means I've learned a lot.  A year ago, I had an overnight bag packed hidden away in the trunk of the car, just in case I had to run from a rage... . constant fear, nerves tweaked, on the defensive constantly.

All I did was set boundaries around the things that were important.  "All I did"... . ha, like it was as easy as slicing pie.  I set boundaries and stuck with them till he got that it wasn't a game. ... .

That's it.  It's felt like this has all been a game for him.  See how far he can push me.  See how many miles can he get out of the inch I'd offer.  See how many times he can stomp all over me before I eventually snap.  Now that he knows I am doing this, taking this step, it isn't a game any more.  It's serious.  I mean business, no more games.

Even yesterday, he went out for a while, and when he came back he asked if I thought he had bought beer.  I told him it crossed my mind, but it's his business if he does or not.  "Yeah, but did you think I would?" he replied, pushing for an answer.  This is part of the game.  I say yes and it means he dominated my thoughts and made me worry (hence he has control).  I say no and it means I don't give a shi! about him (hence I don't love him).

Oh, time away from all the games is going to feel like a breath of fresh air! 

I wish safe haven for everyone here. 

c.

[Grey Kitty]

I've been known to reply to questions like that with "I'm not going to play that game." or "You've put me in a trap where I'm wrong any way I answer that question."

The other option is to validate whatever he's feeling underneath the provocation, if you are sure you know what that is, and feel up to it.

Keep up the good work, and enjoy your space with sanity

And think about how much you want to be in constant voice/text/etc. contact with him while apart. I've read a lot of members here who get to a point where they are afraid of a full-on dysregulation if they don't respond to a text with in a minute, or maybe five minutes... .not healthy... .so you don't want to find yourself stuck in that.

On the other hand, you are trying to maintain closeness and connection in your r/s with him, and the phone is a great way to do this... .if you and your husband can find healthy ways.

[Crumbling]

Oh my!  What freedom!  My mobile phone and this is site are connected for the first time.  My BPDh and I recently invested in separate smartphones.  I'm really enjoying the privacy this gives me... .for the first time in our 10 yr marriage.

[Lucky Jim]

My BPDh and I recently invested in separate smartphones.  I'm really enjoying the privacy this gives me... .for the first time in our 10 yr marriage.

Hey crumbling, This is a good example of a boundary.  You deserve your own private sphere.  Hopefully you have set up a Passcode for your smartphone.    Keep up the good work!   LuckyJim

[Crumbling]

Thanks, LuckyJim, GreyKitty.  It feels good.   

I've been known to reply to questions like that with "I'm not going to play that game." or "You've put me in a trap where I'm wrong any way I answer that question."

I've been applying this to something that keeps coming up lately.  My H has been quite remorseful, and he keeps saying everything is 'his fault'.  Otherwise, now known in our house as, the blame game.  I take responsibly for my side of things too, but then tell him we could just learn and move on from past mistakes, or keep playing the blame game (which leaves me angry with him).  This seems to make him stop talking... .which is okay, I guess... .like Mom used to say, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything. 

Hope ya'll are having a great day!

C.

[Grey Kitty]

Oh my!  What freedom!  My mobile phone and this is site are connected for the first time.  My BPDh and I recently invested in separate smartphones.  I'm really enjoying the privacy this gives me... .for the first time in our 10 yr marriage.

 Enjoy it!

I hope you put a passcode on your phone so he can't get into it if you are getting online here with it!

Yes, I think this kind of privacy is going to do wonders for you. (I've heard a rumor that this site might have a more mobile-friendly version someday... .but unfortunately, it doesn't sound soon.)

[Sunfl0wer]

Even yesterday, he went out for a while, and when he came back he asked if I thought he had bought beer.  I told him it crossed my mind, but it's his business if he does or not.  "Yeah, but did you think I would?" he replied, pushing for an answer.  This is part of the game.  I say yes and it means he dominated my thoughts and made me worry (hence he has control).  I say no and it means I don't give a shi! about him (hence I don't love him).

Oh, time away from all the games is going to feel like a breath of fresh air! 

I am curious about the games they play.

How do the games stop?

I feel like I participate by hearing the game.

But if I don't listen, then I am at a disadvantage as it can be unsafe for me in a way.

Getting distance has not stopped the games for me. It has only altered the same games.

I feel like the games will always exist as long as they breathe.

I wonder though, if others have found a way to put an end to games?  (Not participating has not worked)(ignoring has not)

[Grey Kitty]

Oh, time away from all the games is going to feel like a breath of fresh air! 

I am curious about the games they play.

How do the games stop?

I feel like I participate by hearing the game.

But if I don't listen, then I am at a disadvantage as it can be unsafe for me in a way.

Getting distance has not stopped the games for me. It has only altered the same games.

I feel like the games will always exist as long as they breathe.

I wonder though, if others have found a way to put an end to games?  (Not participating has not worked)(ignoring has not)

Sunfl0wer, can you be more specific about what games you are talking about and how you tried to not participate in them? (I don't think the option of ignoring it is worth pursuing further)

[Sunfl0wer]

Oh, time away from all the games is going to feel like a breath of fresh air! 

I am curious about the games they play.

How do the games stop?

I feel like I participate by hearing the game.

But if I don't listen, then I am at a disadvantage as it can be unsafe for me in a way.

Getting distance has not stopped the games for me. It has only altered the same games.

I feel like the games will always exist as long as they breathe.

I wonder though, if others have found a way to put an end to games?  (Not participating has not worked)(ignoring has not)

Sunfl0wer, can you be more specific about what games you are talking about and how you tried to not participate in them? (I don't think the option of ignoring it is worth pursuing further)

He left weeks ago but has just slowly began being "nice" again.

Had I not known better, I would just not read into it, and think, oh well, that's nice.  Be done, move on.

So he drops hints to be helpful, leave me things he doesn't need, offers to fix something.

Translation: I want you and I to see me as "Mr. nice guy". I want us both to know that I am strong, you are weak.  When you take the bait, it will be proof.

I guess I've seen him be nice enough times to know that HE has meaning in this.

But then I feel guilty for being aware of his "secret motives"

Do I sound nuts yet?

[Grey Kitty]

He left weeks ago but has just slowly began being "nice" again.

Had I not known better, I would just not read into it, and think, oh well, that's nice.  Be done, move on.

So he drops hints to be helpful, leave me things he doesn't need, offers to fix something.

Translation: I want you and I to see me as "Mr. nice guy". I want us both to know that I am strong, you are weak.  When you take the bait, it will be proof.

I guess I've seen him be nice enough times to know that HE has meaning in this.

But then I feel guilty for being aware of his "secret motives"

Do I sound nuts yet?

You sound like you are half-way caught in his game... .and I see two possible 'games' here.

One game is push-pull, going away... .then coming back and being nice/kind/generous.

In response to this one, I'd try to remember that he cycles between both versions, make the best of what he is offering you, and try not to take it personally, as it isn't really about you... .and accept offers that you want as graciously as you can.

The second game would be "I'm going to offer you something nice... .but if you accept it, there will be strings and guilt and garbage attached to it." If he plays this one, you may want to handle it differently... .give more details about this if he does it.

[Sunfl0wer]

He left weeks ago but has just slowly began being "nice" again.

Had I not known better, I would just not read into it, and think, oh well, that's nice.  Be done, move on.

So he drops hints to be helpful, leave me things he doesn't need, offers to fix something.

Translation: I want you and I to see me as "Mr. nice guy". I want us both to know that I am strong, you are weak.  When you take the bait, it will be proof.

I guess I've seen him be nice enough times to know that HE has meaning in this.

But then I feel guilty for being aware of his "secret motives"

Do I sound nuts yet?

You sound like you are half-way caught in his game... .and I see two possible 'games' here.

One game is push-pull, going away... .then coming back and being nice/kind/generous.

In response to this one, I'd try to remember that he cycles between both versions, make the best of what he is offering you, and try not to take it personally, as it isn't really about you... .and accept offers that you want as graciously as you can.

The second game would be "I'm going to offer you something nice... .but if you accept it, there will be strings and guilt and garbage attached to it." If he plays this one, you may want to handle it differently... .give more details about this if he does it.

Yes, he is def playing the first game.  He is opening the door to feel something.

The second game, no, I do not believe he will hold it over my head with any expectation.  However, I think there is a second game of a different sort.  It is a game where he distances himself from our last conflict (the feelings of us parting... .I know he feels pained for having "left me" and tries to erase his negative feelings lingering in himself about the guilt he feels.  He does this by making small offerings to me.  This allows him to pin an invisible small "white knight" badge onto himself to cope with those lingering feelings.  (Again tho, that game is nothing about me)

If I accept graciously, small gifts, as I would any other friend, and do the same back... .  It feels invalidating to me.  His "gifts" are a symbolic apology to replace an actual conversation I would have with a non friend.  If this were anyone else, in the same circumstance, I would actually SPEAK, instead of games.  I would say, " hey, how are you getting on with things?" " yea, me too, it's been an adjustment, there have been some tough moments. This will be for the better, we will be better about things in a couple of months." " it helps that we are at least on friendly terms, thanks."  I wouldn't have some huge drama conversation, but it wouldn't be the elephant in the room an not exist at all.  Just a simple 5 min exchange acknowledging briefly what we are experiencing.

Oh gosh... .this is driving me nuts!... .please cut and repost my thread if I'm hijacking!

[Grey Kitty]

I think there is a second game of a different sort.  It is a game where he distances himself from our last conflict (the feelings of us parting... .I know he feels pained for having "left me" and tries to erase his negative feelings lingering in himself about the guilt he feels.  He does this by making small offerings to me.  This allows him to pin an invisible small "white knight" badge onto himself to cope with those lingering feelings.  (Again tho, that game is nothing about me)

The key is that this game has nothing to do with you. That is a start on radical acceptance of who he is.

If I accept graciously, small gifts, as I would any other friend, and do the same back... .  It feels invalidating to me.  His "gifts" are a symbolic apology to replace an actual conversation I would have with a non friend.

I'm going to suggest that the gifts themselves are not invalidating. They are just small kind gifts. A simple "Thank you" would be appropriate for them.

However... .the fact that he distances himself, which hurts a lot, and never actually speaks of it, acknowledges it, or apologizes for it. THAT is incredibly invalidating.   

Sadly, he just can't do that. He doesn't have the emotional capacity to see that he did something wrong and acknowledge it... .when he thinks about that, he would paint himself black and actually have to peer into the black hole of self-hatred inside himself... .he cannot see that somebody can do a 'bad' thing and not be a horrible person at the same time, and that is more true about thimself than anybody else!

I remember having a really strange experience once well into my wife's process of recovering from BPD behaviors. I got what was probably the first sincere apology from her ever. Up 'till then, any time the words "I'm sorry" came out of her lips, they were followed by something like "that I'm such a horrible person." Which actually made me feel worse--She had just done something cruel to me, and she wasn't even acknowledging what she did to me!

[Sunfl0wer]

I think there is a second game of a different sort.  It is a game where he distances himself from our last conflict (the feelings of us parting... .I know he feels pained for having "left me" and tries to erase his negative feelings lingering in himself about the guilt he feels.  He does this by making small offerings to me.  This allows him to pin an invisible small "white knight" badge onto himself to cope with those lingering feelings.  (Again tho, that game is nothing about me)

The key is that this game has nothing to do with you. That is a start on radical acceptance of who he is.

If I accept graciously, small gifts, as I would any other friend, and do the same back... .  It feels invalidating to me.  His "gifts" are a symbolic apology to replace an actual conversation I would have with a non friend.

I'm going to suggest that the gifts themselves are not invalidating. They are just small kind gifts. A simple "Thank you" would be appropriate for them.

However... .the fact that he distances himself, which hurts a lot, and never actually speaks of it, acknowledges it, or apologizes for it. THAT is incredibly invalidating.   

Sadly, he just can't do that. He doesn't have the emotional capacity to see that he did something wrong and acknowledge it... .when he thinks about that, he would paint himself black and actually have to peer into the black hole of self-hatred inside himself... .he cannot see that somebody can do a 'bad' thing and not be a horrible person at the same time, and that is more true about thimself than anybody else!

I remember having a really strange experience once well into my wife's process of recovering from BPD behaviors. I got what was probably the first sincere apology from her ever. Up 'till then, any time the words "I'm sorry" came out of her lips, they were followed by something like "that I'm such a horrible person." Which actually made me feel worse--She had just done something cruel to me, and she wasn't even acknowledging what she did to me!

Thank you for bearing with me.

I am not seeking validation by way of apology.  I do not think he did anything "wrong."  I truly believe, just as myself, he did his best.

I want the "in the moment reality" validated.

I want us to act and behave like two people, aware that we are breaking up and cleaning up the mess of a break up, moving on.

It feels invalidating to me to treat the last property exchanges like a couple of content old ladies who are exchanging couponing deals.

I understand... .he has issues feeling his feelings... .therefore how could he ever speak words that reflect the reality of the situation.  He deals with every emotion... .sad, angry etc... .by pretending all is good and he is happy pappy.

I wish I could just simply say to him:  this is rough, and sad, thank you for this kindness.  And he would reply: yea, kinda sucks, but we do what we have to.

But if I did say that... .he would "erase" it and cover it up with happiness and ignore my sad feelings.  Instead of "hearing" any of the feeling I expressed.

[Grey Kitty]

Apology, or whatever... .he doesn't have the capacity to have that kind of emotional discussion. He can't validate your feelings.

And that will limit how deep a relationship is possible with him. Which sucks.

Radical Acceptance starts with some deeply depressing realizations like this. It is very much like a grieving process.

[Sunfl0wer]

Apology, or whatever... .he doesn't have the capacity to have that kind of emotional discussion. He can't validate your feelings.

And that will limit how deep a relationship is possible with him. Which sucks.

Radical Acceptance starts with some deeply depressing realizations like this. It is very much like a grieving process.

Thank you!

This is painful... .but maybe I'm getting somewhere?

My hope of him having a congruent experience in actions/feelings/awareness... .is just  evidence of me needing to come to terms with RA.

The relief I seek cannot come from changing his behaviors, but rather my acceptance that this is just what it is.

Ok... .I think I get it.

[Crumbling]

   Thanks for taking part in the discussion, Sunfl0wer!  RA is really powerful, so I'm learning.  Hijack away!   

I didn't realize what would happen when I started all this.  A few months ago I started saying things, both to myself and outloud that demonstrate an acceptance of the situation... .for example... .

"You're telling me what to do again.  That's okay.  It's who you are and I need to be okay with it."

... .stuff like that.  He would react different at different times, but whenever he'd be saying/doing something hurtful to me, I would respond the same, with words of acceptance.  Sometimes, if I was really mad, I'd even say things like, "I f'en hate the poop out of it and it drives me up the f'en wall, but I have to f'en swallow it, because it's just who you f'en are."  Either way, I stayed consistent with my words.

Now he's being accepting, but it's a really painful process for him, too.  He is so remorseful.  So full of self hate, shame and guilt.  He's just beside himself with the reality of the fact that he has pushed me so hard, and disrespected me so much that I have to leave our home to feel emotionally safe.  I give him lots of love, but I also need to stay distant.  I really feel more like a therapist for him than anything else right now.  But I'm okay with that.  He didn't ask for this process to start, I did.

He seems to be in a state of mourning... .same place I was about four months ago.  I had no idea what a powerful effect it would have on him when I started to take charge of my healing journey.  I've had to tell him that not taking the room is not up for discussion.  Period.  He's respecting that.

He's respecting me more and more.  I'm definitely choosing my battles, too.  --------- Holy crap, it just started snowing here!  NO! It's almost May, this isn't supposed to be happening!------------ sorry, the weather is an ongoing concern for me... .  

I'm not putting a passcode on my phone just yet.  I'm going to 'have to have one' when I officially start on Monday, so I'll 'need' one then.   

Mobile version of the site would help see things better, for sure.  I'm zooming in and out constantly.  Still, great to have - no complaints here! 

I'm beginning to ask myself if what my H is saying/doing is just something he's doing on autopilot, or if it's a real issue that needs to be validated, that he's expressing.  Self Destructive Learned Behaviours are just bad habits to me, and dont need validation.  But the underlying issues that cause them to surface, they need the attention.  It's really hard to figure out what is what.  But I guess that's why we call it a process.

Blessings all,

C.

[Grey Kitty]

Apology, or whatever... .he doesn't have the capacity to have that kind of emotional discussion. He can't validate your feelings.

And that will limit how deep a relationship is possible with him. Which sucks.

Radical Acceptance starts with some deeply depressing realizations like this. It is very much like a grieving process.

Thank you!

This is painful... .but maybe I'm getting somewhere?

My hope of him having a congruent experience in actions/feelings/awareness... .is just  evidence of me needing to come to terms with RA.

The relief I seek cannot come from changing his behaviors, but rather my acceptance that this is just what it is.

Ok... .I think I get it.

Yup. I think you are getting it.

The other thing you may get is that you can have other friendships/supporters/family/therapists/etc., and you can get some of the things your husband isn't capable of offering there.

Your H cannot provide you some things, you have to accept that. However you may or may not have to live without them. There are a lot of possibilities out there!

[Grey Kitty]

Now he's being accepting, but it's a really painful process for him, too.  He is so remorseful.  So full of self hate, shame and guilt.  He's just beside himself with the reality of the fact that he has pushed me so hard, and disrespected me so much that I have to leave our home to feel emotionally safe.  I give him lots of love, but I also need to stay distant.  I really feel more like a therapist for him than anything else right now.  But I'm okay with that.  He didn't ask for this process to start, I did.

He seems to be in a state of mourning... .same place I was about four months ago.  I had no idea what a powerful effect it would have on him when I started to take charge of my healing journey.

 

There is something amazing which happens. I saw it with my wife, and you are seeing it with your husband.

The old way: He was full of shame, self-hatred, and guilt. He projected stuff onto you and treated you abusively, which WORKED--he was successfully distracted from those difficult feelings. (It really sucked for you 'tho)

The new way: You don't accept his abuse and projected crap.

Result #1: You start feeling a lot better and more confident and secure. (This one is pretty much guaranteed when you start enforcing boundaries!)

Result #2: Your H lost his ability to hide from those difficult feelings, and is now having to examine them. So he has a chance to start getting healthier too. (This result is less certain... .he could find other equally or more destructive (for himself) ways of hiding from those feelings instead of coping with them.)

And if you enforce boundaries trying to get to result #2... .it doesn't work. Weird that way... .

I'm beginning to ask myself if what my H is saying/doing is just something he's doing on autopilot, or if it's a real issue that needs to be validated, that he's expressing.  Self Destructive Learned Behaviours are just bad habits to me, and dont need validation.  But the underlying issues that cause them to surface, they need the attention.

Anther result of taking better care of yourself, Crumbling! Since you aren't as afraid of what he might do to him, you can actually look at him with more compassion and understanding now. This would be a great time to start working on validation.

Validate his feelings as much as possible, not his actions. Often you might guess what he is feeling, or might not be sure at all. That is another opportunity for excellent validation--Ask him about his feelings instead of guessing about them. He will appreciate that too.