Outside Relationships

[Depression = 72% of members]

My uBPDw and I do most of our socializing together.  We still have on s16 in high school, so most of our free time is going to his sporting events.

Yesterday on Focus on the Family the topic was protecting your marriage.  He said friends of the opposite are fine, but here are some things to watch out for... . if you're contacting an ex-girlfriend after having a fight with your wife... . that can lead to bad things... . that kind of thing.

She mentioned the show and I commented that he said everything I've said for years.  Friendships are fine, but you have to keep your guard up to make sure it doesn't become inappropriate. 

She disregulated, saying if I wanted female friends we mind as well get divorced.  I kept my cool (for once) and just told her that would be her choice.

It boils down to if there are any females there then "why can't I be there".  Which in the non-BPD world that may make sense, but with my wife that means each and every activity.  I tell her that if her desire to play poker is 100% she wants to be there because there may be women there, then that's not healthy.

So you folks who have dealt with this for years, do you just not bother with the explanations and do what you think is right?  Do you try and address the abandonment issues and then do what's right?

I'm struggling with what kind of a relationship is it when you can't discuss these things on more than a surface level... . Is agreeing to disagree simply too far beyond their comfort level?

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My uBPDw and I do most of our socializing together.  We still have on s16 in high school, so most of our free time is going to his sporting events.

Yesterday on Focus on the Family the topic was protecting your marriage.  He said friends of the opposite are fine, but here are some things to watch out for... . if you're contacting an ex-girlfriend after having a fight with your wife... . that can lead to bad things... . that kind of thing.

She mentioned the show and I commented that he said everything I've said for years.  Friendships are fine, but you have to keep your guard up to make sure it doesn't become inappropriate. 

She disregulated, saying if I wanted female friends we mind as well get divorced.  I kept my cool (for once) and just told her that would be her choice.

It boils down to if there are any females there then "why can't I be there".  Which in the non-BPD world that may make sense, but with my wife that means each and every activity.  I tell her that if her desire to play poker is 100% she wants to be there because there may be women there, then that's not healthy.

So you folks who have dealt with this for years, do you just not bother with the explanations and do what you think is right?  Do you try and address the abandonment issues and then do what's right?

I'm struggling with what kind of a relationship is it when you can't discuss these things on more than a surface level... . Is agreeing to disagree simply too far beyond their comfort level?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Selkie3]

I am still very new to learning about BPD, but I find this very interesting, in that what experience with my wife with BP traits is half the same and half reversed.

Long narrative cut short, my wife with BP traits is also insanely jealous, but I didn't realize it until after I started doing things without her that she was uninterested in.  And she was more passive aggressive about it, like picking fights with me in the time leading up to me leaving to do any activity that might have women there.  And she would "get back at me" by having lewd and inappropriate conversations (like bash me) over chat with strange men.

I believe that it boils down to the classic BPD fear of abandonment.  The fear that a female will "steal you" away from her.  This is irrational, but with BPD emotion equals reality.  Just this past week I was able to have a reasonable conversation with her about it that seemed to work.  I avoided specific trigger words for her and avoided being accusatory, which was very hard for me (that's my own issue, I dislike pretending a mentally ill person's delusions are rational).  I'm not sure if it solved the problem per se, but she seemed to understand what was happening much better after that.

[Crumbling]

 

Isit, have you learned about JADE yet?  It's an acronym for Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain and the premise is that when we engage in these lines of communication, it basically puts one person against the other and that typically puts pwBPD on the defensive, and productive communication goes out the window.

So to answer your question, yes, it's a good practice to avoid explanations. I would suggest looking closely at your reasons for wanting this poker night without her, get it good a clear in your mind. 

Then apply SET: Simply listen to her side of things.  Enquire further into why she is saying what she says (which, in your case, I could see digging into it deep enough for her fears to come to light.  Then you follow up with the Truth.  I also include sandwiching positives around the truth, like the bread in your sandwich, one on either end of your reason for wanting the poker night without her.

You could practice here, if you'd like.  Hope this stuff helps,

c.

[ColdEthyl]

My dBPDh has gotten upset because I wore makeup to a meeting. I work at a hospital, and he's afraid some doctor is going to come sweep me off my feet. Before I understood, it used to upset me that he didn't trust me at all. But, that's not what it's about.  It has to do with how badly he feels about himself.

All I do now is tell him I have not and I am not cheating (no use saying I won't ever... . he will always say you don't know that) and that I love him and I am happy with him. He will usually say he doesn't understand why... . and I say I know you don't, but I do.

That's all I can really do for him. It's that fear of abandonment and poor sense of self. Poor guy just beats himself up day in and day out.  The more he feels badly about himself, the more likely he will be afraid of this happening and might say something. It has cut down a lot over the years just by me not JADEing.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

So to answer your question, yes, it's a good practice to avoid explanations. I would suggest looking closely at your reasons for wanting this poker night without her, get it good a clear in your mind. 

It's not my offering up explanations, but the dozens of repetitive questions... . Why do you want to go, what is it about women there, why can't I go?... .

On one level, yes, a spouse should be able to ask questions.  But a spouse that requires she be part of 100% of your non-career life... .

Maybe it's a boundary question... . You can ask 5 questions about who was at poker... . By the 5th question we've usually progressed from who's there to Do you think she's hot? or How can I be more like her?

It's just difficult to affirm feelings when you have to decode the questions... .

[Riverrat]

There is a local restaurant that I frequent, and am friendly with the staff there. The manager had gotten a new puppy a few months back and was showing pictures, etc.

SO and I went for dinner a few weeks back, and when paying our bill, I asked the manager how her new puppy was doing. BIG mistake--SO grabbed the receipt and ran out the door in tears--and I got an earful in the parking lot. Even though this girl is only in her 20s, and certainly no prize catch in my book, SO was sure there was something going on--and now refuses to step foot in the place again.

It doesn't take much when the fear of abandonment is so strong.

Conversely, SO is taking time alone at her place this week--been NC for 3 days now. I wonder how they handle THAT loneliness and separation?

Rat

[ColdEthyl]

So to answer your question, yes, it's a good practice to avoid explanations. I would suggest looking closely at your reasons for wanting this poker night without her, get it good a clear in your mind. 

It's not my offering up explanations, but the dozens of repetitive questions... . Why do you want to go, what is it about women there, why can't I go?... .

On one level, yes, a spouse should be able to ask questions.  But a spouse that requires she be part of 100% of your non-career life... .

Maybe it's a boundary question... . You can ask 5 questions about who was at poker... . By the 5th question we've usually progressed from who's there to Do you think she's hot? or How can I be more like her?

It's just difficult to affirm feelings when you have to decode the questions... .

That's perfectly reasonable. How do you think it would go if you did tell her you get 5 questions, and after that I am not going to participate in this conversation?

[Crumbling]

I know I didn't deal very well with situations like this for a long time in my r/s.  I stopped participating in things that he didn't like, or questioned, or made him nervous.  WRONG WRONG WRONG AND WRONG!  I know that now... . but it took a while.  I'm glad to see you are not going to let her fears stand in the way of your socialization time.  And I think you're smart to be seeking out a productive solution.

It's not my offering up explanations, but the dozens of repetitive questions... . Why do you want to go, what is it about women there, why can't I go?... .

But is she not asking the questions to get you to explain yourself, justify your actions, argue with you about the whole thing and defend your right to this night out?

JADEing is two-sided and like the tango, it takes two.   

Limiting the number of questions may help, it may not, I'm no expert, and you know your r/s best.  But in my experience, as soon as I refused to participate in these types of dialogues, things began to get better.  I would shut down the questioning by saying something like: 

I understand it makes you nervous/anxious/fearful that I am doing X. It makes sense that you would.  X is important to me for me, and I have the right to do what is important for me.  It doesn't mean I dont love you, I do very much.  It doesn't mean I want someone else, I want you.  It just means X is something important for me to do for me.  Nothing more. 


------------

On the flip side of things, I too would feel somewhat nervous if I knew my h was going off playing poker with a bunch of women, and i would have a hard time keeping my mouth shut about the whole thing too.  But in my non-BPD mind, I could handle it, and keep my fears at bay.

CE- did you stop wearing make up at work?  Or has he learned to curb his insecurities?

Rat- My h and I are about to have some planned time apart.  I wish I knew how to deal with it.     I guess, it's a matter on staying focused on the good things about being apart.

Thanks for the dialogue all!

C.

[ColdEthyl]

@crumbling

I don't normally wear makeup, which is why it probably triggered him. I had a meeting with a group of doctors after hours at work, so I'm sure his mind was spinning with all kinds of scenarios that were not real. But, now if I have any other meetings... . he still might say something, but I do it anyways, and I validate his concerns. He knows I am not going to change because he throws a fit.

I have been a lot more assertive with him the past two months, and he has responded well. Before, I tried so hard to 'keep him happy' so he wouldn't dysregulate, only of course to end in failure. Now, I'm telling him more what it's going to be like, what I am going to do, how I feel... . and he's falling in line.

For an example, he's been afraid lately he might have a medical issue with his colon. He wants me to get a life insurance policy on him in case something's wrong. I told him I have already brought home the paperwork from my employer, all he has to do is fill it out. (He has brought this up a few times in the past, never follows through) He asked me why I can't do it. I said because I wasn't him. He has to answer those questions and sign it, then I can turn it in. He then tells me to forge his name. I said I will not. If he wants this, he has to do it. If I forged it, it would be useless.

He again tries to tell me to do it, and I firmly tell him I will do no such thing. I said I love him, I am here for him, but I will not do this for him. He paused for a moment, and started to fill it out himself.

I do not know if being firm will help with your situation, isitherorisitme, but it might. When I first got on this board, people talked about being firm, consistent and putting up boundaries. I'm still in the war, but I am winning a lot more battles than I used to.

[Selkie3]

ColdEthyl, that is really helpful for me, as I am just learning to navigate this.  I started reading about JADE after the responses in this thread and already it seems to be working.

[ColdEthyl]

ColdEthyl, that is really helpful for me, as I am just learning to navigate this.  I started reading about JADE after the responses in this thread and already it seems to be working.

My biggest mistake as well. Most of us have made the mistake thinking if we could just get the logic through their skulls, they would stop being upset. But, they don't always think rationally, and what they feel is very real to them at the time.

[eldee2100]

Over the years, I've quit playing golf, going skiing, drinking beer or alcohol in public, having friends (male or female), answering my phone while I'm at home, two jobs, disagreeing even when I know I'm right, asking about purchases, and other stuff I can't remember. And the list isn't any shorter than it was when I started trying to change my life in order for her to change her attitude and the way she treats me.

If you give a mouse a cookie... . he's gonna want a glass of milk. And if you give him a glass of milk... . etc, etc.

She wants control. But the only thing this has accomplished is that I resent her and I am ripe for the very thing she is trying to prevent.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

That's perfectly reasonable. How do you think it would go if you did tell her you get 5 questions, and after that I am not going to participate in this conversation?

We've had this 100's of times... . I usually get back some sort of "if you want to leave/cut off questions/not respond" it's because you hiding something.  Even though I give 10 examples of her behaving that way to every one time I do... . If you don't put up with her abuse then "that's why I feel this way"... .

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I understand it makes you nervous/anxious/fearful that I am doing X. It makes sense that you would. 

It makes sense that you would, except that's a lie (if I say it... . ).  How do you go about empathizing with behavior that's controlling at best & clingy at worse?

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My biggest mistake as well. Most of us have made the mistake thinking if we could just get the logic through their skulls, they would stop being upset. But, they don't always think rationally, and what they feel is very real to them at the time.

LOL, that's one of my complaints against her... . if I just agreed the topic we've discussed 100 times would 'go away'.

I'm tired of listening to her "clarify" things, when things are pretty darn clear.  Clear and "agreeing with them" are two different things!

[ColdEthyl]

My biggest mistake as well. Most of us have made the mistake thinking if we could just get the logic through their skulls, they would stop being upset. But, they don't always think rationally, and what they feel is very real to them at the time.

LOL, that's one of my complaints against her... . if I just agreed the topic we've discussed 100 times would 'go away'.

I'm tired of listening to her "clarify" things, when things are pretty darn clear.  Clear and "agreeing with them" are two different things!

Uh huh... . their idea of 'clarifying' is "Let me repeat myself 100 times until you agree with me" *chuckles*

The trick is to find a way to get off of the train. I haven't had to put these into place yet, but some of the suggestions are putting boundaries in place and enforcing it. For an example, when she starts in, you tell her she gets 5 questions. If she continues the conversation, you tell her you are not going to participate in this conversation any more, and if it continues you leave the room or the house for say... . 15 minutes. I've threatened to leave... . and my H stopped his behavior so I haven't had to follow through. The whole time you are doing this, you have to validate as well.

"I understand why X makes you nervous. However, I love you and I have not and am not cheating. Now, I am done participating in this conversation." Something like that. Have you tried anything like that yet?

It's likely to get worse before it gets better when you start doing it.

[Crumbling]

I understand it makes you nervous/anxious/fearful that I am doing X. It makes sense that you would. 

It makes sense that you would, except that's a lie (if I say it... . ).  How do you go about empathizing with behavior that's controlling at best & clingy at worse?

For me, it makes sense because he is BPD and this behaviour is part of it.  Note, I didn't say 'I understand'... .to me, that's different.  I don't understand because I don't live it, but it does make sense because he's timid, he's afraid and he's unsure and because he cannot understand what is important for me... .that whole lack of empathy thing. 

I guess I had to get my head around accepting that he is going to behave this way because he has BPD.  Once I accepted that, it became easier to face controlling behaviours with definitive boundaries. 

Good intentions comin' your way!

C.