Email saga continues...

[formflier]

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275228.60;topicseen

To see how we got here

Below is the last post from VOC... .hopefully I can clean up the way this looks at some point

Quote from: formflier on Today at 12:55:41 PM

"I've told you to get those done and I told you to clean the living room... .so what is the problem... .?"  (those means taxes... .I think)  :)irect quote

She will also say "we agreed on this... ."  when what really happened is she "told me" and in many cases I said no.

If she told you to do it and you said no, then it becomes a matter of enforcing your boundary. You said no and now she is hoping that she can badger you or tell you what to do until you comply.

Quote

Hmmm... .extinction burst... .from what boundary or action on my part.  I'd have to think on this

You said that this is the first year that she has been as involved in the taxes. That is a change in behavior on your part. You are involving her more and she isn't handling it that well.

Quote

Good questions... .the best option is for her to learn how to do the taxes and actually do them... .and have the confidence, knowledge and understanding that comes with that... .and not depend on me for that.

How realistic is that? If you want to go that route, then perhaps you should think about what it would take for the two of you two file taxes separately.

Quote

I should have said "expressing" happiness or "madness".  Maybe I should say "negativity".

You can't control what emotions she expresses. Even wanting her to express emotions differently is not going to work. All you can do is find ways to protect yourself when she start expressing emotions in a way that harms you.

Quote

Here is the thing... .she has made claims for years and years about how she can do this and that (financially)

She made the big power play with money and took control.  She has asked (some direct and some inferred) to be rescued several times from the responsibility she has taken on.  

I haven't... .and I'm not going to do it.  She either will figure it out on her own... .or she won't.

What are you gaining from drawing this line in the sand? Is drawing this line in the sand helping your relationship or hurting it? Is there an alternative where there is a system of checks and balances so that neither one of you have all of the control?

[formflier]

The questions are actually from VOC... .

What are you gaining from drawing this line in the sand?

A lot less drama around finances... .there is a cost to that... .the cost of things getting paid late... .messed up and fixed... .sort of... .

But it's worth it to me.  And she is getting better... .I believe she understands there is no rescue... .and she has bought the burden.

Is drawing this line in the sand helping your relationship or hurting it?

I think it is helping... .because there  is less drama, accusations and fighting about money.  

Is there an alternative where there is a system of checks and balances so that neither one of you have all of the control?

Over the years... .I've tried tons of things.  The only limit I have found that works... .is when the account is empty... .she bumped her limit... .and doesn't walk out of the store with what she wants.  I didn't enforce anything... .she met reality... .and didn't like it... .couldn't cuss it... .accuse it... .stomp around the house at it.  She had to deal with it.

I'm letting her deal with it... .I do wish her well with it... .and I she does show a positive learning curve.

I'm open to other possibilities.

I'm open to filing taxes separately... .but don't think I would ever propose that.  If she brought it up... .I would be happy to discuss with CPA and evaluate.

Yes... .this is still a dysfunctional financial arrangement... .but I believe there is less dysfunction this way.  there is certainly less conflict.

FF

[formflier]

Again... .actually from VOC

You can't control what emotions she expresses. Even wanting her to express emotions differently is not going to work. All you can do is find ways to protect yourself when she start expressing emotions in a way that harms you.

So... .there is another option.  She is quite emotional specifically about taxes.  I don't need to understand why.  She can do them herself and be emotional with herself... .the cpa... .whatever... .whoever... .as long as it is not me.

I can control if she grumps at me about he way I do something... .whether or not I do it or not.  That is the choice I will somehow present... .

Maybe a dearman or something... .after this year is submitted.

Oh... .reality.  Most likely I will hand taxes to CPA tomorrow.  This will be the earliest they have been done in 5 or 6 years.  I'll figure that out for sure.



FF

[vortex of confusion]

I can control if she grumps at me about he way I do something... .whether or not I do it or not.  That is the choice I will somehow present... .

I am going to nitpick a tiny bit. 

Nope, you can't control if she grumps at you.

What YOU can control is whether or not you stand around and listen to it. You can control YOUR reaction to the grumping and that is it. You cannot control whether or not she grumps at you.

I am trying really hard to rephrase things without so much focus on my partner. I am practicing on you. 

[formflier]

 

This thing may be blowing up at my house.

She just rushed in a room where I had the kids doing some work... .drug them off to another room and lectured them about the kind of dad I was... .what I was thinking... .why I was having them work in this room

She claims it is for my mother?  What the heck?

She is yelling and banging and rattling around the house.

I walked in the room and asked her to go speak privately.  Exact words we had agreed on using in counseling. 

Fail!

She continued to get louder and make assertions about why I am doing things and that I don't care about her... .etc etc.

I told my family that I could and would speak for myself as for my reasons and thoughts.

Wife stormed off... .not sure where she is now.

FF

[formflier]

I can control if she grumps at me about he way I do something... .whether or not I do it or not.  That is the choice I will somehow present... .

I am going to nitpick a tiny bit. 

Nope, you can't control if she grumps at you.

What YOU can control is whether or not you stand around and listen to it. You can control YOUR reaction to the grumping and that is it. You cannot control whether or not she grumps at you.

I am trying really hard to rephrase things without so much focus on my partner. I am practicing on you. 

Yeah... .I said that wrong. 

I can't control if she grumps at me.  I do control if I continue to work on the issue she grumps about.

Kinda like going on strike because of bad work conditions or something like that... .not sure if that is the right analogy.

So... .(made up example). 

Hubby gripes at wife about way she cooks... .she tries this tries that... .eventually... .after making sure there is food in pantry and reasonable accommodation so that people don't starve... .she lets him cook... .or not.

[123Phoebe]

I'm going to ask an oddball question... .

From what I have gathered, you seem to be a pretty traditional type of dude.  :)oes it bother you that your wife "needs" to work outside the home, when small children are still there?  Would you prefer to be working instead?

I'm not even sure what I'm getting at or going with this.  Just feels like something around this is unsettled.

[formflier]

I'm going to ask an oddball question... .

From what I have gathered, you seem to be a pretty traditional type of dude.  :)oes it bother you that your wife "needs" to work outside the home, when small children are still there?  Would you prefer to be working instead?

I'm not even sure what I'm getting at or going with this.  Just feels like something around this is unsettled.

No... .I don't think I need that. 

I've had a career... .was successful... .and retired.  I had an executive level job for a couple years... .major change in the board... .and they wanted a new leader for the organization.  So... .I'm in a job search now.

At this level... .things take time... .boards don't move quickly... .if I get an offer... .I'll be happy to continue doing that.  I find that work interesting... .fulfilling... .paycheck is usually good.

But... .I have no need or desire to have a second career.   I'm not against it either.

So... .family dynamics.  Not unusual for military families to have a lot to sort out... .after the military.  The way of life we knew for over 20 years... .is gone.

I'm good with that. 

My wife is all over the place (as you would expect)... .

[formflier]

 

Here is the thing... .I would not be a good guy to do the same thing... .over and over.

That's what I liked about the military... .different things.

So... .a new challenge of being at home while wife goes off and works... .is different.

I've done it for short times before... .but wife was away... .on vacation... .whatever... .

So... .if I never get another exec level job... .I'll have fond memories... .and move on with whatever is around the corner.

My list on non-negotiables about my life is pretty short.

FF

[formflier]

From what I have gathered, you seem to be a pretty traditional type of dude.  :)oes it bother you that your wife "needs" to work outside the home, when small children are still there?  Would you prefer to be working instead?

Phoebes... .

You got me thinking about what I want.

right now... .if you gave me two choices. 

Wife gets full time teaching offer and I stay home.

I get offer for another exec job... .wife stays home.

Right now... .I think I would choose I stay home and wife has teaching career.

Neither of those are "real" choices at the moment... .but hopefully that lets you know where my head is.

She has done a lot of work in last bit to get her teaching license transferred to this state and make sure all those credentials are correct... .

Only thing lacking from this plan... .is an offer.

She has been looking for jobs some in the area... .but there are no teaching openings now.

FF

[formflier]

 

Wife is out of house for meeting at church.

I'm considering having family meeting to address the drama and assertions my wife made... .

It's been a while since we've had one of those... .

If I do it... .I would only address my thoughts... .my feelings... .hmmm

[formflier]

 

I decided not to try to gather the family while she was gone.

No reason to believe I was not heard first time I said it.

So... .I'm interested in comments on my "tactics" today... .because if I can do it better next time... .I want to.

I had no interest in intervening when my wife was loud about dragging kids from one room to another because she wanted something else done.  Sure I perked up to listen and evaluate things... .but stayed in room trying to do my work.

When she started lecturing the kids about my motivations... .lack of care for her... .blah blah... .that seemed to cross a line for me.  We had agreed in counseling not to do that and agreed on course of action.  I took that course of action.

I could have waited until speech over and then went and said my piece to kids.

I could have left it alone all together.

There is some recent history of me asking to go to other room and talk... .and things went ok.  Also some history of her huffing and walking off. 

Thoughts?

She is back from meeting... .still seems tense... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

Is this something that's getting you worked up in a few knots?  I've found it better to work those knots out myself, or at least loosen them up a little before approaching anything heavy.  Now that she's home, do you have time to go for a brisk walk?  Fresh air is good for the soul.

[formflier]

Is this something that's getting you worked up in a few knots?  I've found it better to work those knots out myself, or at least loosen them up a little before approaching anything heavy.  Now that she's home, do you have time to go for a brisk walk?  Fresh air is good for the soul.

I'm surprisingly calm.  Resolute.

So... .when I went to the room when she was informing kids of my motivations... .and all that.  On scale of 1-10.  10 being worst... .my triggering state was probably 3... .4 tops.  Sure I was alert... .focused... .I realized this was going to be a fast moving big deal.

update:

She came into the room.  I asked her if she recalled seeing a 1099 (I'm working on taxes).  

"I didn't come in to talk" was her response.

She stood in room for a bit... .and left.

I continued on about my work.

So... .doubtful if this will "get addressed" this evening.  If ever... .  If it gets left until out next MC... .ok

[OffRoad]

From what I have gathered, you seem to be a pretty traditional type of dude.  :)oes it bother you that your wife "needs" to work outside the home, when small children are still there?  Would you prefer to be working instead?

Phoebes... .

You got me thinking about what I want.

right now... .if you gave me two choices. 

Wife gets full time teaching offer and I stay home.

I get offer for another exec job... .wife stays home.

Right now... .I think I would choose I stay home and wife has teaching career.

Neither of those are "real" choices at the moment... .but hopefully that lets you know where my head is.

She has done a lot of work in last bit to get her teaching license transferred to this state and make sure all those credentials are correct... .

Only thing lacking from this plan... .is an offer.

She has been looking for jobs some in the area... .but there are no teaching openings now.

FF

But here is the question: Does your wife want you to stay home while she has a teaching career? Was she previously a SAHM? If so, for how long? Is it possible you have decided what you'd like without asking her what she'd like and she is picking up on this?

Put it this way, if she is accusing you of having no regard for her feelings, and you have decided that you want her to teach and you stay home, but she wants to stay home, she may have a point that you aren't considering her feelings if you both haven't discussed this. This may be what is triggering her, a fear that she will no longer be able to stay home with her children.

That being said, she really did cross over the line when she went off about you to the kids. Has this happened before?

[KateCat]

formflier,

What is "Plan B" if your wife is not mentally well enough to work full-time (or even a robust part-time schedule)? Would it be productive to move to planning for that alternative starting now?

I'm wondering if she's not already feeling stress to the extent that she is "dissociating a little around the edges?" (Isn't her pattern to begin to accuse you of wild things when she feels overwhelmed in some way?)

You'd be sought out quickly by employers where I live. But that's urban, and a boomtown. . . . Would you consider relocating to such a place?

I truly don't think your wife is up to work-world challenges and that there is going to need to be a next step for the family in the coming months.

[formflier]

 

So... .I'm standing at the toilet... .unzipped... .you know what hanging out... .getting ready to go.

She comes in room starts rummaging around in cabinets.

I say... ."Can I help you look for something... ."

She pushes... .nudges me out of the way... .opens cabinet by where I'm standing.

Moves back... .looks around some more... .

"I guess we are out of toilet paper"

So... .really... .

Luckily... .I hadn't actually started to pee yet... .but I got physically moved... .

I didn't resist... .in fact moved some more away.

Sigh.

FF

[formflier]

That being said, she really did cross over the line when she went off about you to the kids. Has this happened before?

Yes... .but is has been a while... .

[123Phoebe]

Luckily... .I hadn't actually started to pee yet... .but I got physically moved... .

I didn't resist... .in fact moved some more away.

Sigh.

Redirect.  About face.  Forward march.  Aim.  Fire!

Psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Feel free to delete.  Couldn't help myself.

[waverider]

I'm surprisingly calm.  Resolute.

Is this in effect her trigger?

You are surprisingly calm she is not, her attention is divided between home and work, she can't balance the two, it is splitting her focus while you are fully focused on the home.

Maybe she finds this invalidating as you are obviously coping with life better. While she perceives she is doing the "real" work and you are reaping the rewards in her eyes?

She wants you to be flustered too. Not being so is invalidating her

[123Phoebe]

Can you imagine what a huge change this is for her?

[KateCat]

Can you imagine what a huge change this is for her?

This might be hardest for those closest to your wife to imagine. If she is full of talents and accomplishments, the envy of other women in many respects, few might realize her struggles and limitations.

[formflier]

Luckily... .I hadn't actually started to pee yet... .but I got physically moved... .

I didn't resist... .in fact moved some more away.

Sigh.

Redirect.  About face.  Forward march.  Aim.  Fire!

Psssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Feel free to delete.  Couldn't help myself.

Phoebes,

You would fit in well in a Naval Aviation ready room!   

[formflier]

formflier,

What is "Plan B" if your wife is not mentally well enough to work full-time (or even a robust part-time schedule)? Would it be productive to move to planning for that alternative starting now?

I am a very blessed... .lucky guy to be in the position that I am in... .financially speaking.  I have monthly income (Veterans disability and retired pay) that will keep a roof over our head... .and food on our table.  If this goes on for long time... .the rest of our lives will be pretty lean.

If my wife flies off deep end... .I have ability to gain control of that deposit for the next month.  I have a friends and family support system... .that... .if I asked... .would smooth out the couple weeks until the next check.

This is not my "plan"... .but as I determine what my limits are... .when I will act and when I won't... .it's nice to understand a "worst case".  OK... .I'm a military guy... .we always planned contingencies.   I've not been able to design a scenario where she can mess stuff up so bad... .that there is not a roof... .and food for kids... .and access to medical care.

This knowledge has taken a lot of "fear" out of my decision making.

I am fully committed to my job search... .in my field.  I have another "first interview" this coming Wed.  I fully expected to be hired about a month ago.   3 interviews... .I was the named finalist.  7 member board couldn't get unanimous.  They have reopened their search.  Same board did this to another guy back in October.  While it happened to me... .my analysis... .and that of others in the business is that the rejection is more about "their" issues... .than me as a candidate.

I would have been hired in the $100k-120k range... .what I think they want (credentials and experience) will cost them 150k-200k per year.

So... .lots of irons in the fire... .and back up plans.

I'm wondering if she's not already feeling stress to the extent that she is "dissociating a little around the edges?" (Isn't her pattern to begin to accuse you of wild things when she feels overwhelmed in some way?)

I'm sure this is playing a role.  No idea how to quantify it.

You'd be sought out quickly by employers where I live. But that's urban, and a boomtown. . . . Would you consider relocating to such a place?

Yes... .my job search has been nationwide.  Nature of business seems to be that unless a guy is exceptionally qualified (I am not) that they don't look too far afield.  8 hour drive away is the furthest I have been invited to interview and start vetting process.

I truly don't think your wife is up to work-world challenges and that there is going to need to be a next step for the family in the coming months.

Very likely... .I can see this playing out that way... .

[formflier]

But here is the question: Does your wife want you to stay home while she has a teaching career?

When this possibility has been talked about she has said she is ok with it.  She has said she is not.  More often than not she has said she is ok with it.

Was she previously a SAHM? If so, for how long?

Yes SAHM.   Since... .1995.  I'll let others do the math... .  We delayed getting married so she could graduate from college... .I was already in Navy.  We met in college and I didn't want to "take her out" to get married and follow me.  Plus if LDR didn't survive before marriage... .not a good plan for Navy life. 

We both worked... .got pregnant... .planned on her going back to work.  Had baby... .had no idea the impact that would have on us... .  When it came time to go back to work... .I didn't want her to go.  She didn't want to go.  We looked at budget... .made choices to make it work... .and that was the end of it.

Homeschooled up until 2005.  BPD traits showed up 2009.

Is it possible you have decided what you'd like without asking her what she'd like and she is picking up on this?

We have talked about what she wants... .and what I want.  Then... .we've had a talk about what I am "ok" with and what she is. 

So... .if a full time teaching position comes open... .and if she takes it... .and if I haven't been hired by then... .and if she likes being in classroom... .I could see myself being ok with being SAHD dropping work search... .and proceeding on with life.

Right now she is substitute teaching... .because that is what is available.

Put it this way, if she is accusing you of having no regard for her feelings, and you have decided that you want her to teach and you stay home, but she wants to stay home, she may have a point that you aren't considering her feelings if you both haven't discussed this. This may be what is triggering her, a fear that she will no longer be able to stay home with her children.

I think I've addressed most of this above... .if not... .please re-ask.

That being said, she really did cross over the line when she went off about you to the kids. Has this happened before?

Yep... .it used to be very common... .say... .once a month or so.  There was incident... .gosh... .month... .month and a half ago where she was going to move a child into the house... ."and I couldn't stop her".  She stomped around and made some speeches to the kids then too.  Honestly... .wasn't as bad then... .as it was today.

Note:  No idea if all of my typing is TMI (too much info) or not... .but... .I really appreciate all the input... .so... .I want to make sure no stone is unturned... .and all details are out there.

FF

[formflier]

I'm surprisingly calm.  Resolute.

Is this in effect her trigger?

You are surprisingly calm she is not, her attention is divided between home and work, she can't balance the two, it is splitting her focus while you are fully focused on the home.

Maybe she finds this invalidating as you are obviously coping with life better. While she perceives she is doing the "real" work and you are reaping the rewards in her eyes?

She wants you to be flustered too. Not being so is invalidating her

Possibly. 

Hmm... .if this is the case... .is there anything I can do about it.

I can try to validate frustration... .and anxiety on her part... .

Hmmm

[KateCat]

Oh, good! Solid monthly income coming in. I won't worry about you anymore.

There's nothing wrong with a few lean months now and again, to make us all count our blessings.

[formflier]

Can you imagine what a huge change this is for her?

Yes... .

She admits to it being a change... .I'm suspicious that she is minimizing.  She also claims to be glad Navy is over... .a lot of the life she knew is gone.

There is a lot about the Navy I miss... .many things certainly were simpler.  I still keep in touch with squadron mates.  :)ue to distance we only regularly get together to bury other squadron mates killed in action.

Unfortunately... .that is still a bit of a regular occurrence... . :'(

FF

[formflier]

Oh, good! Solid monthly income coming in. I won't worry about you anymore.

There's nothing wrong with a few lean months now and again, to make us all count our blessings.

I totally agree. 

I suspect my wife would not... .

Actually I suspect my wife would say she is ok with that... .but not want to "walk the walk"

She actually said the other day she was worried about how we were going to have money to eat next month.  I validated the concern... .without agreeing with it... .or explaining how she was wrong.

[Grey Kitty]

Understanding that you have a small income while not working (and the potential of a much larger one when working)... .and that your wife gets a little income from substitute teaching, and might have more from a full-time teaching job... .

What about separating finances into accounts which are "yours", "hers", and "household"? Do you think it would reduce stress over money?