Financial Talk - started badly. Need Help

[takingandsending]

So, my uBPDw of 16 years got pretty worked up yesterday to ask me if we can swing about $4k for a 6 month life coaching package that she wants to take. She has been very involved in EFT (emotional freedom technique) tapping to improve her self-soothing skills. Her work in self-healing/therapy, in conjunction with my efforts not to make things worse, has improved the stability in our house. We have 2 young children, so maintaining a stable household is high priority for me. Because she still dysregulates, my view is that the not making things worse efforts are having the biggest effect, but I don't want to discount her efforts.

The short history over the last 1.5 years is that she has started her own spiritual coaching/healing in home business and self-published a book of poetry/art. Our last year taxes showed me a jaw dropping 17k in expenses (some of that is write-offs of percentage of mortgage, utilities). Her business income was approximately 1.2k. I know that we cannot sustain this type of ratio.

We received a higher than normal tax return based on these numbers, and I immediately felt guarded and wary that she would spend the entirety before any of it went to our family. I have not begun any sort of college fund for our kids, we have some savings, but it was cut in about half with the business start up. I have my own personal retirement fund, which I am 99% certain I will have to borrow from if/when the kids are old enough to go to college. I already have put into motion plans to open my own savings account to send any extra money I earn on my paycheck and any future raises to that account to protect ourselves. Once I heard about our tax return, I began thinking of putting everyone on annual discretionary spending rations. The 9 year old's dance and music lessons, for example, count against the spending limits. I would like the spending to be equalized between the four of us. What the kids or I don't spend can go to their savings fund.

Trouble is, I don't know how to approach my wife with this. I have a lot of resentment about her impulsive spending over the last year. She ties all of this into self-worth and feels devalued if I even bring it up. I did a lot of validation that she feels powerless and worthless last night, and refused to JADE. I used SET to suggest that things go better when we discuss how we want to spend our money. Still, I don't know how to introduce this idea of rationing. I am okay with however she would spend her share, provided it doesn't harm anyone. All I know for certain is that we can't sustain her expenditures as they stand, and that it makes me angry that I have allowed her to spend without protecting myself or my kids' financial security.

My mistake is that my wife has never been spendy for clothes or furniture, cars, etc., so I have agreed with bigger expenditures if it makes her happy. But she has spent pretty recklessly on her business and on any number of on line, phone or healing seminars, classes, retreats. Yet she rails at me and the kids for any expenditure outside of our budget - big source of resentment. In her feelings=facts world, she is the fiscally responsible one, and I am the one who departs from agreements. I have tried to approach her before with you can spend what your business makes, or similar, but that has just led to big dysregulations.

It took a lot to not point out 10-12k in expenditures last year when she was crying and telling me how heartless I am. I considered pulling out our tax return to show her, but I know that this will not help her feelings. How can I help her feel secure and not threatened, but also let her know that there is a cap here? 

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[Loosestrife]

hi, this is a very difficult situation. Perhaps you could use a third party (eg an accountant) and let them break if to her that's it's not a viable business and it also needsto remain seperate from your home finances... .

[takingandsending]

Thanks, loosestrife. I don't think that will help my wife with the feeling secure level. She does accept things from 3rd parties better than me, but I think it will make her feel even more cornered and increase the shameful feelings even more. But this is getting us closer and closer to financial difficulty.

Thing is with boundaries, I am having a hard time figuring out what this is for me. I really have never cared about money. I know we can't take it with us, and I don't want to. But I have a sense some of my ambivalence is a way of avoiding how I really feel. It's like I never give myself credit for how hard I actually work to keep my family fed, clothed, housed and access to opportunities in life. I have a lot of shame about getting and having money that go deep into my FOO. Net result, it has always been safer to not have attachment or boundaries when it comes to money. This is probably why I can't work out boundaries in this area. Aw crud.   

[vortex of confusion]

Who is in charge of managing the finances?

Is that something that the two of you do together or does it fall primarily on you?

When you talk about boundaries about money? What do you mean?

What is that you are trying to enforce to protect yourself?

Is there any way that you could approach her with something like, "I was reviewing the finances and I am not sure how I can juggle all of the expenses this year. Do you think we could go see an accountant or financial advisor to get some help?"

[takingandsending]

Hi VOC.

I reconcile our accounts every two weeks. She prepares a zero balance budget every two weeks. We don't have an annual budget. When we started falling behind, I pushed for a monthly budget based on a 4 month rolling average of expenses. It was big emotions, but eventually my wife agreed to that approach. This is about discretionary spending, i.e. any extra money from my work or in this case, tax return. We generally won't incur debt, but her expenditures over the last year did cut our savings in half, so it was as good as incurring debt.

Boundaries I have focused on have been about civil communications. I get that boundary because it's central to something I view as important, as central to me. Money is a weird necessity that I ultimately don't really agree with. I live in a capitalist society, but at my core, disagree with the system and don't really like it. Our house is not a keep up with the Jones's house. I believe that happiness is not defined by the money we have or the things that we have.

That said, what I want to enforce is that everyone in the house is equally deserving in what extra money we do have, i.e split it up. Second, I want to have a plan where our extra money goes that helps the kids get a foundation for their education, if they want to go that way.

Your idea for a SET could work. I am pretty certain I will get a lot of flack for putting her through all of this whenever she wants something. It's how she feels about it, despite the many times I have told her, "you know, if it makes you happy ... .". Unfortunately, I created this situation by not having consistent behavior on this in the first place.

[vortex of confusion]

I was trying to get a better sense of where things stand.

One of the things that might be helpful is to have two different accounts or even several different accounts. One account is for paying shared household expenses. One account is for her and her alone. One account is for you and you alone. And then, another account for savings.

Does she have a separate account for her business or is that rolled into all of the rest of the family finances?

I ask all of this because I manage all of our finances. I used to have all of my pay go into the joint account. When I got a second job, I got my own account and now all of my pay goes into my account. I choose which bills to pay out of which account. I don't really give my husband information about how much money is in my separate account. I have suggested that he get his own separate account but he won't do it. He would rather spend out of the joint account. He will look in the account and see that there is money left after the bills are paid and go buy stuff. What I am getting at is whether or not it would be possible for you to set up an account that is for your wife's discretionary spending. If there is money in the account, then she can do whatever she wants with it. If there is no money, in the account, then that is it.

[bluejeans]

I am very interested in this thread although I don't have much of offer at this point. My SO and I have separate accounts and always have. She has mentioned getting a joint account a few times but I never pursued it. Since I pay for most everything (mortgage, utilities, etc) I don't see a need. She is not able to stick to any kind of budget with her own money or save money, and she is always going into debt. I have some ( a lot maybe) of resentment around the money issue - mostly about her not contributing.

But right now I am waiting. Since she will be starting DBT in the near future, that will be enough. Then perhaps we can deal with the money issues.  I know she will be okay with talking to a professional - financial planner, or someone like that, since she is always okay with asking for help.  At this point, I am really uncomfortable with talking to her about money. I even talked to my T about it and she gave me some ideas but the timing isn't right for me.

What does your wife think about setting up a college fund? I know that I wasn't in much of a position to save when my children were young so we are dealing with that now (youngest is in college now) and it is difficult.  If they choose not to go on to college they could use the money to launch.  Maybe having a clear goal like that would help?

[Thread]

I just tried having a financial conversation with my pwBPD. I feel your pain. It ended with him zoning out and staring off into space as if in a trance for 15minutes after being incredibly defensive, then the remainder of the night in complete silence.

Its not fun when you can't talk to your significant other about any important issues.

[takingandsending]

Hello everyone and thanks for the replies.

I ended up talking to my wife last night about her program. She said she was waving the white flag and would forego the program she wants to do at the end of the year, leaving only this program and a writer's conference in Hawaii plus whatever other stuff she will sign up for before the end of the year.

Using SET, I was able to at least describe my truth: that the division of the pie was pretty inequitable the last couple of years. I did validate how talking about money can seem like her work as a stay at home mom is not valued and that she is important and giving, but none of us can have everything that we want.   

I found it hard not to be manipulated and pushed into the black and white thinking of whether or not I trust her and believe that all of the this self healing work will pay off. She believes that she will be making a lot of money at her work once she clears the emotional obstacles, so it will all balance out and do I believe in her or not. In the end, she didn't refuse my suggestion of creating an annual cap on discretionary expenses. 

VOC, I like your idea of separate account for her annual expenses. She might go for that, and it would create a lot less controversy. Thank you. You are a shining light of clarity when it comes to this stuff - been there, done that.

I will say that she stay regulated throughout the discussion, enough even that I could say that I was feeling panicked about not starting the kids' college funds.  She said we were paying their tuition for college by sending them to private school, which I called bulls--t on. She agreed that paying for our decision to send them to private school did not equate to supporting their decision to attend a college. I appreciate that she was reasonable. I wish that I didn't have to fight so hard to get to these points. In the end, it was a sort of uncomfortable agreement without clear, hard points. I have to do the math to work out how much each family member gets and set the limits.

Wish me luck.

[an0ught]

   for doing the conversation. Now just keep diligently tracking it in your normal process. Maybe she starts self managing or you will be facing an extinction burst later in the the year. Not worth worrying about now.

How can I help her feel secure and not threatened, but also let her know that there is a cap here?

You worry about her feelings first... .

... .now I'm all for validation etc. but when it comes to boundaries part of it is to worry less about emotions on the other side. The reason this is fair is that boundaries are about protecting our values and generally with our values we here on staying tend to be not on the expansive side. Often these changes in our situation is one sided and naturally resented as we establish boundaries where they should be but where not. Enforcement of boundaries often means that we have to let go of knowing the exact outcome on the other side. We trust in the durability of the relationship, time and our ability to validate where appropriate to smooth over the upset that comes with the change. In the medium term establishing fair and equitable boundaries will strengthen the relationship and prevent unnecessary distress. Stable boundaries create predictability and a feeling of security that is based on deeds. Budgets are never liked, generally too small but they create security for planning.

Have you considered that with giving her a budget she should have the last word on that spending? From what you wrote you had some joint decision making in the past. She may come to you trying to rope you into the decision making. I would suggest to stay out of that as much as possible. You may be required to voice an opinion but it is her budget and her decision and her budgetary consequence.

[takingandsending]

You worry about her feelings first... .

... .now I'm all for validation etc. but when it comes to boundaries part of it is to worry less about emotions on the other side. The reason this is fair is that boundaries are about protecting our values and generally with our values we here on staying tend to be not on the expansive side.

Hi an0ught. True. I suppose I was thinking of the BPD feeling=facts, thinking that if I could shift the feelings from feeling threatened to some level of reassurance, I could sneak some real financial facts to her. Generally, she is very threatened by any perceived lack of financial security. That has mostly helped us although it limits discussions when it comes to what choices I make in my career.

I understand that values are about protecting our values. And I think I am finally arriving at my values around money. What I value is fairness. I want people to be fed, clothed, housed and educated. I have always struggled with some having and others not having. So, if I apply this to my RS, it means that my boundary is fair distribution of money in the house - everyone gets taken care of. I think I can work with this. It just was hard for me to see what I valued in relation to money, but this feels more aligned with who I am.

Thanks.