Abandonment Depression

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've been reflecting a great deal lately on the breakup I've had with my ex (over a year ago), and the profound effect that it has had on me.  I'm increasingly wondering if what I am dealing with has to do with the concept of abandonment depression, and I'd like to understand it better.  And even better, I'd like to have a better idea of the road map to work through it.

Does anyone here feel like they have a solid understanding of the concept of abandonment depression?  And if so, could you help explain it to me?  I have read some of James Masterson's descriptions of the concept, and I think that I do have some low level understanding of the concept, but I'd appreciate it if someone could break it down further for me.  There isn't much that I have been able to find about abandonment depression online (most searches just result in pages about abandonment - not the same thing), so my sources on the concept have been limited.

I grew up with an uNPD mother, and I've been working on that a good deal with my therapist.  She is not really familiar with the concept of abandonment depression, however, even as she has some exposure to attachment theory.  I've considered looking for another therapist to work with who might be a better fit.  I'm just not entirely sure what the problem is.  I'm not feeling stuck exactly, but I do feel that there are things still unresolved.  I feel like I've been able to let my ex go, even as I very much am still in love with her.  I would willing try again with her if she would return.  I don't have any sort expectation, or even much hope, that this will occur, however.  I am sometimes still angry with my ex and I definitely still feel very hurt, but the overwhelming emotions that I feel towards her are love and concern.  I do still feel that something is wrong with me, however.  And I am really having a hard time putting my finger on exactly what it is, so it's not something that I can easily describe.  It's just this feeling that I still feel sort of empty or something.  Sort of hollowed out, maybe.  I don't know what the word is.  I'm wondering if abandonment depression might be what it is that I'm experiencing.

Any help or comments most welcome.  Thanks, all.

[cosmonaut]

I've been reflecting a great deal lately on the breakup I've had with my ex (over a year ago), and the profound effect that it has had on me.  I'm increasingly wondering if what I am dealing with has to do with the concept of abandonment depression, and I'd like to understand it better.  And even better, I'd like to have a better idea of the road map to work through it.

Does anyone here feel like they have a solid understanding of the concept of abandonment depression?  And if so, could you help explain it to me?  I have read some of James Masterson's descriptions of the concept, and I think that I do have some low level understanding of the concept, but I'd appreciate it if someone could break it down further for me.  There isn't much that I have been able to find about abandonment depression online (most searches just result in pages about abandonment - not the same thing), so my sources on the concept have been limited.

I grew up with an uNPD mother, and I've been working on that a good deal with my therapist.  She is not really familiar with the concept of abandonment depression, however, even as she has some exposure to attachment theory.  I've considered looking for another therapist to work with who might be a better fit.  I'm just not entirely sure what the problem is.  I'm not feeling stuck exactly, but I do feel that there are things still unresolved.  I feel like I've been able to let my ex go, even as I very much am still in love with her.  I would willing try again with her if she would return.  I don't have any sort expectation, or even much hope, that this will occur, however.  I am sometimes still angry with my ex and I definitely still feel very hurt, but the overwhelming emotions that I feel towards her are love and concern.  I do still feel that something is wrong with me, however.  And I am really having a hard time putting my finger on exactly what it is, so it's not something that I can easily describe.  It's just this feeling that I still feel sort of empty or something.  Sort of hollowed out, maybe.  I don't know what the word is.  I'm wondering if abandonment depression might be what it is that I'm experiencing.

Any help or comments most welcome.  Thanks, all.

[Blimblam]

It's the period where you go from an enmeshed fused whole with your mother to identifying yourself as seperate and feeling the fear and pain of that separation.  A lot of those concepts are from the author winnicot and his child development theories.  It goes along with the practice of leaning into the pain, someone mentioned Pema chodrin has a book covering that from a buddhist perspective. 

[cosmonaut]

Thanks, Blim.  Do you have any books you could specifically recommend?  I'm not a Buddhist, but if the book has enough that's not theological in it about abandonment depression, it might be helpful.  I'd certainly look into it.

How does one go about working through abandonment depression if it was impacted or delayed due to a parent with a PD?

Edit:  Can you describe what you mean by "leaning into the pain"?  I've seen you use that term a number of times, and I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by it.  I guess I'm looking for as concrete explanations as possible.

[Blimblam]

Idk look on Amazon for books by winnicot. 

I can't really give you a concrete explanation and i don't think that really exists. 

You have to interpret for yourself. What I like about masterson is he has sort of distilled a lot of different theories and made it very accessible in dealin with the underlying stuff with borderlines and narcissists.  The thing is the theories he's drawinf upon are actually much more broad and not PD specific. 

What I did was relate his text to the pain I was feeling after being dumped becuase that is abamdonment depression.  The member 2010 has a lot of good posts that can really help make sense of the concept.

I myself Havnt read Pema chodrin.  I related the phrase lean into the pain or your pain as a parallel to a practice i sort of developed independently on my own.  Wen i first began to mention what I was doing a member that was really into Pema chodrin mentioned Pema chodrin and some quotes that were very inline with my practice which i called just feeling your feelings. The Pema chodrin quotes were extremely poignant and based on my interpretation of only a few quotes know she's really onto something.  You might want to ask the member drummer boy he has read Pema chodrin.

The thing that really speaks to me in your last post is your looking for a solid thing outside you to make sense of something that seems external.  All that stuff is within you though the outside stuff is just models and narratives and having insight into yourself is more important that insight into an external model and then applying it to something perceived as external.

[Blimblam]

It feels like your looking for something external to adapt as your narrative to like rescue you.  I was to and I think we all are when we are in so much pain it's a way to avoid experiencing abandonment depression by attaching to a parent figure and identifying yourself as that.  But I can tell your apprehension with religion is in regards to that process itself.  Lol so I can see the conflict. By leaning into the pain and going through te abamdonment depression of seperating oneself from a parental narrative of what was one you and your ex or some ideology that tells you your a good person if you veiw the world this way it forces you to confront the pain that's been repressed.

[EaglesJuju]

What type of attachment style do you have Cosmonaut?

Abandonment fears and separation anxiety can be catastrophic for certain types of attachment styles.  I have abandonment fears/separation anxiety and the perception of abandonment causes me so much anxiety and depression.  For me, it is an internal conflict that can be "soothed" by seeking out another attachment, but is constantly fearful of the possibility of abandonment.

On one hand, the person who was abandoned/rejected suffers from a type of "betrayal" from the loss of a loved or needed person.  On the other hand, there is a feeling of persecution.  As a result of perceptions of reality become questioned, the good becomes the bad, the nurturing becomes the persecutor, and a state of well-being turns into chaos.

Sadness, grief, and pining are commonly experienced during abandonment depression.

[Blimblam]

I guess what I'm trying to say is the confusion you expressed in you first post on the thread is an expression of your abandonment depression.   You found it!  Lol.  Your desire for the concrete external narative and your apprehension with religion is your abandonment fears and engulfment fears being expressed.

[cosmonaut]

Thanks a lot of taking the time to respond, Blim and Eagles.  I really do appreciate it.  You're helping to me to get a better handle on this.   

I can't really give you a concrete explanation and i don't think that really exists.

This is actually one of the things that I'm worried about, and trying to sort out for myself.  There is so much abstract metaphor in these descriptions, that I wonder if there isn't any solid foundation in truth.  Is the concept just unproven hypothesis on top of unproven hypothesis?  Unfortunately, I don't really have the background in psychology to be sure either way.  I have considerable scientific training, but it's all in the physical sciences.  So, that's what I'm trying to sort out right now: just what is abandonment depression and does that explain what I am experiencing.  That's why I'm trying to get at things as concretely as possible.  For me, I suppose it's necessary to examine it like that to understand it.

You have to interpret for yourself. What I like about masterson is he has sort of distilled a lot of different theories and made it very accessible in dealin with the underlying stuff with borderlines and narcissists.  The thing is the theories he's drawinf upon are actually much more broad and not PD specific. 

What I did was relate his text to the pain I was feeling after being dumped becuase that is abamdonment depression.  The member 2010 has a lot of good posts that can really help make sense of the concept.

Yes, I agree very much that 2010 has some great posts.  I've looked through most of his/her posting history, and it's actually the relation of abandonment depression to what we are going through that started me down this road.  I'm definitely intrigued by the idea that this might help to explain things.  Unfortunately, I'm still just not sure, and much of that is because I can't explain exactly what it is I am experiencing.  If I understand correctly, then abandonment depression is a necessary aspect of separation from our mothers, and Masterson gives the off putting of it to the formation of the false self.  Abandonment depression is described as necessary to the formation of the true self, but what I guess what I would like to know is what the characteristics of it are.  How does one differentiate it from bipolar depression, for instance, which I also experience?  What are the qualities that define abandonment depression?  What's really occurring during this time?

The thing that really speaks to me in your last post is your looking for a solid thing outside you to make sense of something that seems external.  All that stuff is within you though the outside stuff is just models and narratives and having insight into yourself is more important that insight into an external model and then applying it to something perceived as external.

That's definitely what I'm looking for - a model.  I understand you that this is all an internal process, but I don't have any clear understanding of what that internal process is and that's what I'm seeking externally, if that makes sense.  I am not certain if having a mother with a PD has affected this process, but that's the ultimate goal I'm seeking.

It feels like your looking for something external to adapt as your narrative to like rescue you.  I was to and I think we all are when we are in so much pain it's a way to avoid experiencing abandonment depression by attaching to a parent figure and identifying yourself as that.  But I can tell your apprehension with religion is in regards to that process itself.  Lol so I can see the conflict. By leaning into the pain and going through te abamdonment depression of seperating oneself from a parental narrative of what was one you and your ex or some ideology that tells you your a good person if you veiw the world this way it forces you to confront the pain that's been repressed.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean about apprehension with religion.  I'm a Christian and I always will be a Christian.  That, for me, is completely decided forever.  Getting at the repressed pain seems to be what I am after.  I know that I have a lot of unresolved hurt and resentment toward my mother (and father), and it's really only in the past year I'm starting to realize how much.  I've never really been too close to either of my parents.  I love them and I care about them very deeply, but we aren't close.  They aren't people that I feel that I can talk with or that are particularly interested in my concerns and problems in life.  My T was the one that has really helped me to realize just how strongly my mother has the traits of a narcissist, and I've read a few books about being the child of a narcissist and how many such children struggle all of their lives to overcome that type of upbringing.  I do know that I felt very invisible growing up, and I guess I deeply internalized that as the way life was.  2010 was the one who pointed out in a post to another member that in a relationship with a pwBPD we may have felt really seen for the first time in our lives.  That seemed to fit with me, and I can relate to that.  I think the loss of that has added to the terrible grief that I am feeling.

What type of attachment style do you have Cosmonaut?

That's a good questions.  I don't know.  I don't even know what all of the different styles are.  Is that from Masterson or some other source?

Abandonment fears and separation anxiety can be catastrophic for certain types of attachment styles.  I have abandonment fears/separation anxiety and the perception of abandonment causes me so much anxiety and depression.  For me, it is an internal conflict that can be "soothed" by seeking out another attachment, but is constantly fearful of the possibility of abandonment.

I have some abandonment fears I think too.  But for myself, I haven't really felt separation anxiety.  I'm usually quite alright by myself, and sometimes even prefer it.  I know that one of the things that broke up my relationship with my ex before my BPD ex was her decision to move away.  We were never really able to recover from that, and I know I felt very ditched and abandoned by her doing that.  Things were never quite the same between us after that.  I did just adored being with my BPD ex.  I've never felt so close to anyone in my life.  She did soothe a certain something in me.  I felt so at peace with her.  I slept the best I ever slept beside her.  I did hate her silent treatments, however.  I didn't feel, even at the time, that most of them were punitive, but they did make me feel horrible.  I worried that it meant bad news for our relationship (and clearly it ultimately did).

Sadness, grief, and pining are commonly experienced during abandonment depression.

Yes!  I have all of these acutely!

I guess what I'm trying to say is the confusion you expressed in you first post on the thread is an expression of your abandonment depression.   You found it!  Lol.  Your desire for the concrete external narative and your apprehension with religion is your abandonment fears and engulfment fears being expressed.

So, you think that's definitely what I'm experiencing?  Let me see if I can explain more solidly what I am going through.  I feel profound loss at my ex leaving.  I honestly don't think that I will ever find love like that again.  Indeed, I've been working under the assumption that I won't.  I also feel such profound shock at what happened, and at the suddenness of it.  I feel anger at the injustice of being left without cause, after I showed her such patience and understanding about all of her problems.  I feel angry that she didn't try to resolve anything.  I feel crushed that she hasn't and indeed refuses to speak to me since the night she broke up.  I feel like something has died inside of me, and I don't know if it will ever come back.  I'm not entirely sure what it is, though.  My belief in love?  I don't really know.  I feel sort of empty inside, or maybe a better way of putting it is that I feel like I have lost a part of me.  I wonder sometimes if that wound will ever heal or if, like losing a limb, it is permanent.  I miss her like I have never missed anyone in my life.  I still think of her every single day.  And yet, I feel like I have let her go.  I don't feel like I would be destroyed if I heard she was dating someone else.  I feel infinitely more hurt that I can't speak with her, not even to say hi.  I wish her nothing but the best.  I want her to be happy so much.  And yet I feel this hollow ache inside that will not stop.  It's been here for a year now, and I don't know when, or if, that will stop.

Does that sound like abandonment depression to you?

Thanks so much for your replies, guys.  It means a lot to me.  I really appreciate it.

[Sunfl0wer]

This is kind of an area I am trying to understand as well. 

Unfortunately I have c-PTSD so things feel confusing to me at times, combined with the memory issues I have because of it.  This makes learning hard at times.

I had a day last week of excruciating grief.  I tried "leaning into" it and feeling it.  Just experiencing it without judgment to see where it would take me.  Well, it took me by the hand.  It lead me back and back through darkness.  I do not know exactly where I ended up on this journey.  I was somewhere in my past.  This unbearable grief that felt like it overtook me like a gentle monster... .well... .it was familiar.  I recognized it and had met it before. 

So I guess in a way, if I remember a reading I did correctly, I guess this was a sort of emotional flashback.

If I could call anything abandonment depression, it would be this full feeling grief that held my hand tightly that day.  It is still with me now, just not holding my hand and leading me so much, more in the shadows watching, seeing if I notice or ignore it.

I do not know if this emotional flashback grief = abandonment grief.

I do however, feel that my grief takes different "flavors" and as the Eskimos have a ton of words for snow and ice, I could easily have as many for the many shades of grief.

[Blimblam]

That sounds like a narrative describing the actual experience of abandonment depression. 

That's why when I say lean into the pain.  Focus on the emotions and the physical sensations but let the story the narrative and ruminations go they are just how those emotions express themself in your unconcious mind to give it symbolic "substance." 

Your inner workings at least describing them is more akin to art than science. It expresses itself in the symbolic such as language. It's like trying to scientifically measure a poem.

[Blimblam]

The concrete thing is your feelings and the physical sensations not the story or the narrative but the feelings themselves. They express themself symbolically like a painting in your mind. So how do you scientifically measure a painting or a poem? 

[jhkbuzz]

I feel profound loss at my ex leaving.  I honestly don't think that I will ever find love like that again.  Indeed, I've been working under the assumption that I won't.  I also feel such profound shock at what happened, and at the suddenness of it.  I feel anger at the injustice of being left without cause, after I showed her such patience and understanding about all of her problems.  I feel angry that she didn't try to resolve anything.  I feel crushed that she hasn't and indeed refuses to speak to me since the night she broke up.  I feel like something has died inside of me, and I don't know if it will ever come back.  I'm not entirely sure what it is, though.  My belief in love?  I don't really know.  I feel sort of empty inside, or maybe a better way of putting it is that I feel like I have lost a part of me.  I wonder sometimes if that wound will ever heal or if, like losing a limb, it is permanent.  I miss her like I have never missed anyone in my life.  I still think of her every single day.  And yet, I feel like I have let her go... .I feel this hollow ache inside that will not stop.  It's been here for a year now, and I don't know when, or if, that will stop.

I feel this too... .8 months post b/u.

Some days are better than others - and I have a lot of really decent days now... .I'm in much better shape than I was 6 months ago.  I don't think I'd take her back if she knocked on my door; I understand the disorder and the chaos that arises from it and, even though I love her, I don't want it in my life.

So that's my logical understanding... .but then I still experience what you described in your post.  I'd like it to heal that wounded core, but I don't know how to make it happen.

[EaglesJuju]

How does one differentiate it from bipolar depression, for instance, which I also experience?  What are the qualities that define abandonment depression?  What's really occurring during this time?

With bipolar, a depressive episode lasts at least two weeks then you can move back to your baseline. I am not sure what type of bipolar that you suffer from.  I would think having abandonment depression would be something that is more long lasting, since attachments attachment styles are formed during childhood. 

The depressive symptoms for bipolar depression (lack of energy, difficulties in sleeping patterns, changes in appetite, feelings of guilt or worthlessness, loss of interest, difficulty thinking/concentrating) and these symptoms can be exacerbated with abandonment depression.

That's a good questions.  I don't know.  I don't even know what all of the different styles are.  Is that from Masterson or some other source?

Attachment theory is credited to Bowlby and Ainsworth. 

Attachment patterns can be differentiated into attachment anxiety and attachment avoidance. Attachment anxiety refers to fears of abandonment/separation and is associated with a negative representation of self.  Attachment avoidance refers to discomfort with intimacy and dependency and is related to negative representation of others.

Those people who have high attachment anxiety and high attachment avoidance have fearful attachments. People with high attachment anxiety and low attachment avoidance have preoccupied/anxious attachment styles. People with low attachment anxiety and high attachment avoidance have dismissing attachments.

[cosmonaut]

Unfortunately I have c-PTSD so things feel confusing to me at times, combined with the memory issues I have because of it.  This makes learning hard at times.

I'm sorry to hear you are also struggling with this Sunfl0wer.  Did perhaps you have a parent with a PD, too?  I'm also in the same boat having existing mental illness that is sort of complicating things.  It's hard to tell exactly what is what, and I think that's adding to my inability to be able to finger exactly what is wrong.

That sounds like a narrative describing the actual experience of abandonment depression. 

That's why when I say lean into the pain.  Focus on the emotions and the physical sensations but let the story the narrative and ruminations go they are just how those emotions express themself in your unconcious mind to give it symbolic "substance." 

Your inner workings at least describing them is more akin to art than science. It expresses itself in the symbolic such as language. It's like trying to scientifically measure a poem.

Thanks, blim.  I guess I can appreciate that.  Trying to scientifically understand a poem.  Good analogy.  That helps.  So, the solution is just to wait and let things run their course subconsciously?  Is there a possibility that if things were disrupted or delayed in childhood that something could again go wrong?  It's not an active process, in other words?  Nothing conscious?

I feel this too... .8 months post b/u.

Some days are better than others - and I have a lot of really decent days now... .I'm in much better shape than I was 6 months ago.  I don't think I'd take her back if she knocked on my door; I understand the disorder and the chaos that arises from it and, even though I love her, I don't want it in my life.

It really is a miserable experience, isn't it?  I would have never believed something like this existed until it happened to me.  I had no idea that losing someone you love in this manner, could affect someone on such a core level.  This is beyond grief or depression; this is something else entirely.  It's more like trauma.  Or, increasingly, I'm believing abandonment depression.

With bipolar, a depressive episode lasts at least two weeks then you can move back to your baseline. I am not sure what type of bipolar that you suffer from.  I would think having abandonment depression would be something that is more long lasting, since attachments attachment styles are formed during childhood. 

The depressive symptoms for bipolar depression (lack of energy, difficulties in sleeping patterns, changes in appetite, feelings of guilt or worthlessness, loss of interest, difficulty thinking/concentrating) and these symptoms can be exacerbated with abandonment depression.

I have never in my life been this messed up for this long.  This is an entirely new experience, and there are indeed aspects that I've never felt before.  I do think this must be abandonment depression.

I really appreciate all of the help and knowledge you've shared with me, all.  I think I am much more confident now in saying that this is abandonment depression that I'm experiencing, and that must be positive.  Just to get through this now.

[Blimblam]

The Buddhists talk a lot about attachment.  :)escarte said, "I think therefore I am."  Our thoughts and language are symbolic representations of what we feel and by the time gets filtered through language it passes through that filter and attaches to a narrative.  

Lacan describes this as the imaginary, the symbolic and the real.  

The narrative is the imaginary we often believe is real, in budhism they call it samsara. Or as the dude would say, "yeah, well that's just like your opinion man."

The symbolic level is language Art, when the emotions begin to compartmentalize and fragment to give it the illusion of order.

The real is like every thing at once.  All of the feelings and emotions

So just feel the emotions the feelings it

Might just feel like emptiness at first that ok! That's normal.  They will probably express themselves as a narrative in your mind as they are filtered through the symbolic level into your imagination to be observed.  The narrative is the most superficial level of that process and the most easily observed.

The issue is enslaving your imagination to a narrative and falsely beleiving it's real. 

Willy wonka knows.

www.youtu.be/r2pt2-F2j2g