How to have a much needed conversation with an upBPD

[Hmcbart]

How do you have a much needed discussion or conversation with an upBPD?

Here's the scenario: uBPDw is a stay at home mom. Kids (8 & 12) are in school all day. I  have to work out of town sometimes 2-3 days a week (including overnight). I need to speak with her about taking care of things around the house while I'm gone. Cooking, cleaning, etc.

Every time I have tried to talk to her about it she will rage and say that I don't think she does a good enough job around the house (whike it's true, I've never said it). Or how I knew she didn't like to cook and clean when I married her so why am I complaining now.

I'm getting burned out doing everything. I really want to tell her that she gets to choose what she wants to do.

1- She can start cooking and doing the dishes at least 5 days a week.

2- She can sweep, mop (when needed), vacuum (when needed), clean bathrooms, wash and fold laundry (including mine)

3- She needs to become part of the marriage which includes; intimate conversation, affection and sex

I would like her to pick 2 of the three.

I know I'm asking a lot. I also know that there is no way to approach this without some negative consequences. I need help to formulate a game plan to accomplish these things. I should probably wait until I can talk her into going back to MC but I don't think my sanity can last that long.

Another question I have is this: I keep hearing that it's better to ask something or bring up a sore subject when they aren't dysregulated. If asking the question or bringing up a subject that will most likely trigger them, how do you ever get to have that conversation?

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[cloudten]

Well, I will say this... . BPD or not, being a stay at home mom with children is harder work than anyone who has never done it realizes, especially with young children.

Before you go into your conversation, just double check that you have realistic, reasonable expectations. Also- the children are older... . why don't you approach it from a chore aspect?  Maybe you and her can be more of a "team" and make the children responsible for sweeping and mopping (i did it at a young age as an expected chore- our children are much more capable than we give them credit for!) as part of their expected household chores and responsibilities. Make your wife in charge of the chore list and making sure they get chores done since she is somewhat the "household manager".  I make my own 6 year old daughter responsible for folding and putting her laundry away. Is it always perfect? no. but she does it!

I don't think your demands are unreasonable... . but I don't know if I would put a number on how many days a week she does the dishes. But maybe you need that as a boundary? I don't know.

My big concern is that if you make this all about "her" and what she is doing wrong... . (BPD or not in my opinion)... . then it will be very negative.  Maybe it should be a family meeting... . where you and your wife present a united front, and make sure that everyone in the family is chipping in to help with household responsibilities?  It could come from a much broader viewpoint of "we are not working together as a family to take care of our home and our belongings... . i expect everyone in this family to chip in... . and here is how we are going to do it... . [specifics]. Jane, you are to sweep the kitchen every day, and fold and put your clean clothes away. John, you are going to collect the garbage on Mondays, vacuum the family room twice a week, and mop the kitchen floor on Saturdays, and wash, fold and put your clothes away.  Everyone is to do their part with the dishes, washing and putting them in the dishwasher when you are excused from the table so MOM can run the dishwasher." ETC. 

Just ideas. I know that when I was a stay at home mom, I would have felt very unappreciated and targeted if my husband had come to me and said these things (I am not BPD).  Like I said, staying home is actually really hard. Drop the kids off and school and they are back home before you know it.

Obviously the marriage talk should be done without the children. Tell her you want her, you miss her, you are attracted to her and that you want to be with her. Maybe woo her more than attack her. Maybe you have tried this and it hasn't worked? We catch more flies with honey.

Also- on this same line of catching flies with honey- are you praising her for when she does things right?  If she does the dishes... . do you go over-the-top and thank her and appreciate what she HAS done... . and not what she hasn't done? Positive reinforcement! Isn't that what they tell us to do with our children?  Adult pwBPD are very similar.

If you haven't tried a more positive approach first, I would try that!

[an0ught]

Hi Hmcbart,

good to see you have an idea what you want and are planning how to do it 

Not so good idea is it however to come with a laundry list to the discussion. You worry about one topic and are then considering to bring three. This is an approach likely to send her through the roof. It may be better to work on one change at a time in isolation. Instead her picking 2 out of 3 what about you picking two to work on first?

Discussing somewhat contentious topics starts with loosing our fear. If we approach a discussion with fear we likely transfer it. While we can not work wonders on our emotions we can prepare well and manage so our anxiety.

The two patterns used for such discussions are SET and/or DEARMAN - see corresponding workshops.

Every time I have tried to talk to her about it she will rage and say that I don't think she does a good enough job around the house (whike it's true, I've never said it). Or how I knew she didn't like to cook and clean when I married her so why am I complaining now.

As a preparation - How does she feel about

  - her work at home

  - you pushing her

and how would you go about validating those?

[Hmcbart]

Cloud: I am sorry if I came off sounding like I don't think being a stay at home mom is hard work. I absolutely know it is. The biggest problem I have is that she has plenty of time to volunteer with the school PTO and other things but none for household chores. On another post someone said to make a chore list and hang it on the refrigerator. Then fill it out everytime I do something.

I have the actual chore list the she created when we went to MC last year. It has everything laid out and who is responsible for what. I have been following it as close as possible since we made it. She never did one of the things on the list, that she created, until last week when I had to get her help to clean before her sister came to surprise her for her birthday. That one time caused her to paint me black and I'm still in that area 10 days later.

As far as getting the kids to help, I'm working on that one as well. But when I'm gone I need her help to keep things going. That's the impass I'm having. I don't ask her to cook and clean all day. I really don't ask her for anything anymore because of the fight that will come from it.

As far as praise for doing things right. Yes, I am very giving of praise but have trouble when she hasn't cooked all week and eats out every night then proceeds to tell me I need to cut back on eating out because I'm spending to much money.

She told me not too long ago that the marriage personal stuff (sex) needs to come more naturally. She said she needs more romance. I just don't have the time to romance her when she gets angry about something (my fault or not) and stays that way for 10 days or more. My window of opportunity for romance is cut way down. Throw in a time of the month (sorry if tmi) that can last from 5-10 days and I'm out of time. I am very romantic and have always tried to go above and beyond to show her how beautiful she is and how much I love her. It's very frustrating.

[Hmcbart]

You are both correct about this being too much for one conversation.  I guess sometimes I get triggered and it's verbal vomit.

I don't mean to come off as an uncaring person who things that my wife should be subservient. I don't want that and never have. I just need a partner in the marriage.

As a preparation - How does she feel about

  - her work at home

  - you pushing her

and how would you go about validating those?

-she will say that she enjoys being a stay at home mom some days but others she is unhappy about it.

- I try not to push her for anything, I know the outcome from it and it's never good.

How do I validate these? That's where I'm lost.

Here is an example of what I said last week and her reaction to it. This was while I was still trying to surprise her with her sister coming into town for her birthday.

Me: I know that you have been cleaning up around the house and I want to help out. If you will go through the stuff in the corner of our bedroom, I will take it to LICS in the morning on my way to work. I will also come through and dust tonight if you would like. I know the loft needs it more than the other areas. Also, I will clean the downstairs and boys bathrooms if you will do ours.

Her:  Sorry if my steps are to small for you. I started in that corner yesterday along with a few different areas. I'm not rushing through things but believe I'm going at a good pace for myself.

This is a start for me and I'll get things done.The loft needs a lot more then dusting but I'm working on that. It would be helpful having the sleeping bags in Boys room put up and your side of the closet picked up. Those are things I can't do but those are things I wouldn't have pointed out till you pointed out what I'm still not doing.

It went down hill from here.

[OffRoad]

The biggest problem I have is that she has plenty of time to volunteer with the school PTO and other things but none for household chores.

This is because school volunteering and PTO things are both social in nature and generate validation and appreciation. I don't know about your family dynamics, but I can tell you after a full day of laundry, mowing the lawn, cleaning both bathrooms, ironing and vacuuming, then helping with homework and running kids all over for after school sports, I got zip.nada for appreciation. (Of course, H is the BPD in our relationship). Volunteer work and PTO gave me the appreciation boost I needed to survive.

I have the actual chore list the she created when we went to MC last year. It has everything laid out and who is responsible for what. I have been following it as close as possible since we made it. She never did one of the things on the list, that she created, until last week when I had to get her help to clean before her sister came to surprise her for her birthday. That one time caused her to paint me black and I'm still in that area 10 days later.

A list is good, especially a checklist. Do you have this posted and dated for every week? Just saying that actually worked most of the time in our house. (Not always, though)

As far as getting the kids to help, I'm working on that one as well. But when I'm gone I need her help to keep things going. That's the impass I'm having. I don't ask her to cook and clean all day. I really don't ask her for anything anymore because of the fight that will come from it.

Your 12 year old is old enough to steer the ship for his own chores. Depending on your kids, he might be able to encourage the 8 year old to get his done, too. If I asked my kids to do me a favor and get items on the chore list done, they would do it. It was still on me to ask, but it did happen. Your mileage may vary.

As far as praise for doing things right. Yes, I am very giving of praise but have trouble when she hasn't cooked all week and eats out every night then proceeds to tell me I need to cut back on eating out because I'm spending to much money.

Yeah, that's a tough one. 

She told me not too long ago that the marriage personal stuff (sex) needs to come more naturally. She said she needs more romance. I just don't have the time to romance her when she gets angry about something (my fault or not) and stays that way for 10 days or more. My window of opportunity for romance is cut way down. Throw in a time of the month (sorry if tmi) that can last from 5-10 days and I'm out of time. I am very romantic and have always tried to go above and beyond to show her how beautiful she is and how much I love her. It's very frustrating.

Also a tough one. I don't know if this works for her, but I have told my H that just picking a flower from a dandelion out front constitutes romance for me. Does she have anything like that that could help?

It's hard to get things back on track when you are frustrated. Sometimes, you might need to let things sit for a little before diving back in to see what can get bolstered up in the situation. Keep your list of things you'd like, and look for opportunities to appreciate when she does even one of them. But leave out words like "today". Saying "The floor looks nice today" is the same as saying "The floor look lousy every other day."

[Hmcbart]

I would love to give her appreciation for all the things she does as a stay at home mom. I know for a fact that I have and still do on most days. It's very hard to do it when she literally hasn't done anything. If I'm working in town she will typically call or text me asking me to pick up the kids because she has another headache. As far as all of the cleaning and running around, I'm not going to give her praise for something I am doing and she is not.

I don't have the chore list posted. It wasn't until you mentioned using one that I remembered it. I will be putting it up soon.

With the kids helping, that's a fun one. I make them help me downstairs but she will not let them do anything upstairs. She is very particular, if it's not done exactly the way she wants it she flips out. I've been asked to do something, I'll go and do it, then she will come rage at me for not doing it correctly. But then she's even said that she doesn't like to do it because she knows she won't be happy with it. It's that whole inability to live up to her own standards. She can't do it so no one else can. That's usually when I stop trying to help her.

I have know idea anymore what constitutes romance for her. If I do something she likes one time, the next time I do the same thing it's bad. if I've don something once that made her happy and we ended up later in bed. If I do it again, even non sexually then it's lost all meaning because I'm now only doing it to try and have sex. Sadly I know very well what I have done each time in the last 9 years because it's easy to remember when it typically only happens once a year.

I'm constantly trying to find new was to show her how much I appreciate her. Wording is very critical. It's difficult to act appreciative when she has been angry for 10 days. I get to deal with the silent treatment, not picky little criticisms, and the belittling that comes with it all. It's hard to be appreciative those days. But those days are the ones that will get held against me.

[an0ught]

Hi Hmcbart

I'm constantly trying to find new was to show her how much I appreciate her. Wording is very critical. It's difficult to act appreciative when she has been angry for 10 days. I get to deal with the silent treatment, not picky little criticisms, and the belittling that comes with it all. It's hard to be appreciative those days. But those days are the ones that will get held against me.

it is good that you notice her sensitivity to wording    Understanding the difference between appreciation in a naive sense and validation is now vital for you to make progress. Your struggle with it is common for people coming to the board and overcoming it gives you a whole new range of things you can say with a better (but not perfect) confidence that they work.

She needs not appreciation but she needs validation. She needs not praise when she is down and feels guilty about work she knows she should have done. She needs her lack of energy, guilt and shame addressed. And here it becomes difficult for us - expressing negative emotions is not so natural.

As a preparation - How does she feel about

  - her work at home

  - you pushing her

and how would you go about validating those?

a) she will say that she enjoys being a stay at home mom some days but others she is unhappy about it.

b) I try not to push her for anything, I know the outcome from it and it's never good.

What you gave in a) is her judgement. Judgement comes after emotion and often amplifies emotions into a black and white matter.

So how does she see truly feel? Sad she does not have a job? Guilty as the house is not as nice in order as the neighbors? Frustrated with the repetitiveness? Isolated? Overwhelmed? ... .there will be a lot in that direction... .  Proud of the kids? Proud of some thing she really cares about? ... . there will be other things. All crying for being expressed. Mostly negative at this point. All constantly fluctuating so attention to situation is important.

Start validating negative emotions. If you don't dare with your wife find someone else who looks depressed and address the sad face. Not cheering the person up but the sad emotion that is there. See how the person reacts. Build confidence. Practice on your wife - when you get it right you will see her calming down and opening up. Successful communication with your wife using SET or DEARMAN will require you having a good grip on validating the black side of her.

b) I try not to push her for anything, I know the outcome from it and it's never good.

So what are you doing then? You want something to happen and are frustrated - you risk being passive-aggressive. DEARMAN might help as it is about assertiveness, being clear about what you want without becoming controlling. Control will be resisted. Weakness signals anxiety and will be met with aggression.

[Hmcbart]

I agree that I have a lot to work on with me and how to communicate better with her. Especially the negative emotions.

The question about how she truly feels, I honestly don't know at this point. A few years ago she was complaining about cleaning up after the kids and how she didn't have any adult conversations all day long. This was before she began volunteering at the school. I made the statement that maybe she would be happier if she went out and found a job. I told her we could put the kids in daycare and she could be around more adults. I was very understanding and sympathetic to her feelings... .so I thought.

She threw something across the kitchen and told me that she was not going to get a job because if I ever leave her she wants to make sure she gets alimony.

Up until this point I thought everything was going fine. I knew she was upset but I didn't have any idea where this had come from. I hadn't threatened to leave or divorce her. There was nothing.

So I have a lot of work to do when it comes to figuring out how she feels about anything.

I will be the first to tell you that I have noticed myself doing passive aggressive things. I usually try to correct my actions when I catch it. I have come a long way in catching myself before I get triggered.

I have tried SET, I'm still not very good at it and the last time I was told I was talking down to her. The DEARMAN approach I have read about but haven't attempted to use it. I think it's my own fear that I will trigger her when she's in a good mood. Those days are so few and far between lately I don't want to do anything to mess it up.

[Jessica84]

This seems to be an issue in every household, whether there's a pwBPD living there or not. Cloudten gave very practical advice about making her part of the "management team" - very validating - shows you trust her, support her, and also gives her some control. Children who do chores also learn good work habits and feel a sense of pride and accomplishment. And you might get some free time yourself with everyone pitching in. Win-win-win.

As for romance, a single rose with a note on a clean kitchen counter that says "Thank you for all you do... . Love, Hmcbart" or a kiss on the cheek while she's doing laundry could do wonders. Reinforcing good behavior is just as important as enforcing boundaries for bad behavior... .

[Jessica84]

The question about how she truly feels, I honestly don't know at this point. A few years ago she was complaining about cleaning up after the kids and how she didn't have any adult conversations all day long. This was before she began volunteering at the school. I made the statement that maybe she would be happier if she went out and found a job. I told her we could put the kids in daycare and she could be around more adults. I was very understanding and sympathetic to her feelings... .so I thought.

She says she's tired of cleaning after kids and longs for adult conversation (complaint). You suggest she get a job (dismissive). She hears "you don't do anything all day". (feels invalidated)

I know you're an understanding and sympathetic husband, but can you see a better way to validate her here? Something that will make her feel heard/understood? You have to look for her feelings behind her words. Sounds like in the above example she feels exhausted and a bit lonely - validate that. If you're not sure what she feels, try repeating what she says, then follow up with questions. This shows interest, which is at least not invalidating.

"I know picking up after the kids isn't much fun. And you deserve adult conversations. What can we do about this?"

[tortuga]

She threw something across the kitchen and told me that she was not going to get a job because if I ever leave her she wants to make sure she gets alimony.

Up until this point I thought everything was going fine. I knew she was upset but I didn't have any idea where this had come from. I hadn't threatened to leave or divorce her. There was nothing.

My uBPDw pulled this on me, as well. She knew that this was one of my "sensitive buttons".  I went into marriage with no consideration that divorce was ever an option. That was just how I was raised. She knew that, and waved that knife in my face on a constant basis; knowing that I would ALWAYS back down.

Until I stopped backing down.

After a fairly nasty bit of a crisis: I told her that she had to get her stuff together and get a job and start contributing, or I was OUT.  Once she knew that divorce was "on the table" for me, she never brought that up again. (and, in fact, I was very reluctant at the time, to even consider divorce - it was an angry moment for me, and I was fed up - and I think I was just lucky that it even worked out).  Also, she never actually *agreed* to any of it. She just went and did it. Never had to admit to anything wrong.

She has had her miserable moments at work. But overall, she was much happier working.  It was much more validating for her.

I will be the first to tell you that I have noticed myself doing passive aggressive things. I usually try to correct my actions when I catch it. I have come a long way in catching myself before I get triggered.

I was blamed for being "passive/aggressive" a lot, as well.  When I asked her for specific examples, she didn't have many. When I described these situations to my T, she explained to me what passive/aggressive REALLY means.   It was very helpful.

This accusation was another way in which my uBPDw would try to blame me for things.

I would lean towards validation; "I hear that you feel hurt by when I did X, but it honestly was not my intention to do that."

I have tried SET, I'm still not very good at it and the last time I was told I was talking down to her. The DEARMAN approach I have read about but haven't attempted to use it. I think it's my own fear that I will trigger her when she's in a good mood. Those days are so few and far between lately I don't want to do anything to mess it up.

It is not easy to get out of these patterns.  The terror we feel, (of "setting them off" is real.  You get better at these techniques slowly, over time. If you have a T, you can practice them, in-session, and it helps, because you don't have this "performance anxiety" that you're going to do something wrong, and trigger another massive circular argument.  

One technique for communication I learned was called "I-messages". It seems to work fairly well in a wide-range of situations.  Except that I never really succeeded at getting it to work with my uBPDw.  I think that for "I-messages" to work, the person has to have some access to a basic level of empathy, and when my uBPDw is dysregulated, she has no such access.