Custody or Shared Parenting?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have not posted on here much but am in the same boat everyone else experiences.  However, I also realize every situation is different.

I am currently going through the process of a divorce(a few months into it) and our temporary orders are for shared parenting.  My uBPDW is for shared parenting, which is surprising, but I suspect it is because she has such a difficult time with them.  She has threatened their life and my life several times.  Everyone in our evaluation is really pushing for me to seek custody.  The tough part for me is that my job takes me out of town nearly half the month.  So my question is, if I have custody and she has them the other 50% of the time, then that seems like it will make the uBPDW more angry and damaging to the kids.  Even under shared parenting, she has said so many bad things about me to the kids that the order of respect as viewed from the kids would be uBPDW, daughter, son, and then dad(who the kids often refer to me by my first name now).  I feel she has minimized my respect from the kids to nearly nothing.  The kids are in therapy, she is in court ordered therapy, and I am in therapy. None of the therapy is helping!  Honestly, the frustration of dealing with this is nearly too much.  Everyone involved knows what she is doing and the effects it is having but it just keeps happening. I mean how much can a parent be ignored and yelled at by their early grade school kids before they just stop fighting for normal in a kids life?

[justaboutdone]

I have not posted on here much but am in the same boat everyone else experiences.  However, I also realize every situation is different.

I am currently going through the process of a divorce(a few months into it) and our temporary orders are for shared parenting.  My uBPDW is for shared parenting, which is surprising, but I suspect it is because she has such a difficult time with them.  She has threatened their life and my life several times.  Everyone in our evaluation is really pushing for me to seek custody.  The tough part for me is that my job takes me out of town nearly half the month.  So my question is, if I have custody and she has them the other 50% of the time, then that seems like it will make the uBPDW more angry and damaging to the kids.  Even under shared parenting, she has said so many bad things about me to the kids that the order of respect as viewed from the kids would be uBPDW, daughter, son, and then dad(who the kids often refer to me by my first name now).  I feel she has minimized my respect from the kids to nearly nothing.  The kids are in therapy, she is in court ordered therapy, and I am in therapy. None of the therapy is helping!  Honestly, the frustration of dealing with this is nearly too much.  Everyone involved knows what she is doing and the effects it is having but it just keeps happening. I mean how much can a parent be ignored and yelled at by their early grade school kids before they just stop fighting for normal in a kids life?

[Mike-X]

I am sorry for all that you are dealing with. My wife and I divorced a few years ago, and co-parenting can be tough. My ex doesn't have BPD, but is passive-aggressive and sometime just outright condescending, insulting, etc.

Are you familiar with Parent Alienation Syndrome?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274234.msg12600910

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the therapy not helping? Is the therapy helping you? Is she being seen by a BPD specialist, and how long has she been in therapy?

[ForeverDad]

She has threatened their life and my life several times.

This is very concerning.  Court could care less about you, but the kids?  That should not be hidden.  Hiding or ignoring the facts is self-sabotaging.

Everyone in our evaluation is really pushing for me to seek custody.

Listen to them.  If these are the professionals, then doubly so!  Why?  It is immensely hard to make major improvements to a custody/schedule after the final decree.  And very expensive.  And even one return to court could involve 12-18 months or more.

I had 2 returns to court post-decree, excluding Contempt of Court proceedings, each took 15-18 months out of my life and wallet.

• 2005 - Separation and divorce process was over 2 years.



• 2008 - Settled for Shared Custody.  Failed as expected.



• 2011 - Settled for sole custody (Legal Guardian) but GAL (Guardian ad Litem, child's lawyer) wanted ex to keep equal time to behave better.  Failed of course.



• 2013 - Two full days in court trial, got majority time but during the school year only.  Finally seems to be working.

Do I wish I had been able to get custody and majority time from the start?  Of course, better for me, for child, for my wallet, for my health, getting my life back, etc.

Beware of self-sabotaging feelings like overly fair, overly thoughtful, overly nice, overly whatever.  These qualities, otherwise excellent in life's activities, are hurdles to overcome and potential disaster makers when dealing with a disordered and poorly behaving parent.

Be forewarned that if the professionals feel you won't step up and take charge (or worse, you relapse back into the dysfunctional relationship) then they won't work as hard for you.  But if you are determined to stand up and set firm boundaries for proper boundaries etc going forward, then you will be excellent resources and supporters of your parenting.  Which will it be?

The tough part for me is that my job takes me out of town nearly half the month.

So you should get MORE than 50%, right?  Then why in your next sentence do you say she would have them "the other 50% of the time"?  Hey, don't sell yourself short.  You need to have a good order on paper.  If sometimes you can't have them as much, that's life, but don't lock yourself into a bad order.  For all you know next year your job could change and you wouldn't have to travel as much anymore.  Your travel job could change at any time but your order continues for another 12 years, until the last of them turns 18!

So my question is, if I have custody and she has them the other 50% of the time, then that seems like it will make the uBPDW more angry and damaging to the kids.

Frankly, you have little control over her actions.  She will do whatever she will do.  She doesn't think you have the authority to rein her in.  Court has the authority but will do little to rein her in unless you're willing to step up to the plate.  So, pick an option below, which would you prefer?

• Ex continues causing conflict but I have a good order to protect me, my parenting and my children.



• Ex continues causing conflict but I have a weak order that exposes me, my parenting and my children to her chaos, antics, allegations, alienating, demands, ultimatums, etc.

Hmm?  I thought so.  You just needed a bit of reflection on your situation, objective rather than subjective.

The kids are in therapy, she is in court ordered therapy, and I am in therapy. None of the therapy is helping!  Honestly, the frustration of dealing with this is nearly too much.  Everyone involved knows what she is doing and the effects it is having but it just keeps happening. I mean how much can a parent be ignored and yelled at by their early grade school kids before they just stop fighting for normal in a kids life?

Give it time.  The divorce process is a very volatile time.  We here were all basket cases during our own trials and tribulations.  But we got through it, we got to the light at the end of the dark dismal tunnel.  We survived and even prospered.  Yes, we have the scars too, but they're festering no more, they're mostly in the past, we're past the worst of it.  You can prosper too.

Accept the direction and counsel of the professionals.

Accept the support of your (trusted) friends and family.

Accept the practical collective experience of those here in peer support.

Remember, custody is about major legal, medical, school, etc issues.  Custody is only loosely connected to parenting time.  You can easily have sole custody and yet the other parent can still have parenting time, depending on behaviors.

[ForeverDad]

Remember, custody is about major legal, medical, school, etc issues.  Custody is only loosely connected to parenting time.  You can easily have sole custody and yet the other parent can still have parenting time, depending on behaviors.

To expand on the custody & parenting time conceptual differences... .

Custody... . Courts generally are very, very reluctant to change custody without a substantive Change of Circumstances, a process which took me about 18 months when I sought change Shared Parenting to become Legal Guardian, my state's categories.  That's why I wrote that if you have a real opportunity to get sole custody or whatever your state's phrase is, then jump at it.  Years from now you, your kids, your wallet and your life will thank you.

Custody covers the major decision in parenting such as medical and legal decisions, among others.  Many states allow some flexibility for custody, here's a basic list starting with the best and going down the ladder:

• Sole custody - make the major decisions and notify her.



• Joint custody with Decision-Making - make the major decisions and notify her.



• Joint custody with Tie-Breaker - ask for her input first then make the major decisions and notify her.



• Joint custody - at least be sure to be the Residential Parent for School Purposes.  While technically it doesn't mean much except where the children attend school, it has an immense impact when there is conflict.  If she is RP and moves away then you'd have to follow her.

Many courts are reluctant to grant sole custody except in extreme cases, they don't want one parent to feel the Winner and the other parent to feel the Loser.  In your case the court may be more concerned for the children than for their mother's feelings.  Do seek full custody but if the court doesn't want to do that then seek the next best... . Decision-Making or Tie-Breaker.  This way she can still tell people it is Joint Custody but you have firm control of the major decisions and she can't obstruct you (as much).

Parenting time, or the parenting schedule... .  It is best to have a typical parenting schedule.  Since the court has already recognized your spouse's deep issues and ordered therapy, then you ought to seek to have the official schedule set at no more than standard alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.  Here's some concepts to start with:  To reduce exchange confrontations when there is school or daycare you could have her weekends start Friday after school or from daycare, and her weekends could end Monday morning at school or daycare.  If her issues are really bad, it could be less, perhaps you could get the children back on Sunday afternoon or evening so you could get them prepared for school the next day, in effect she would have shorter weekends.

Mind you, this is just the framework on paper.  Then you could add an addendum clause that if you are away for work travel, then she could get additional time while you are away.  That way, if your work ever changes and you travel less then you wouldn't have to go back to court to get your full time back, you'd just notify her less often of your dates away.   The point is that officially you have a firm grip on stable parenting as soon as possible and never let go of it!

Another idea to ponder is to have the order grant your trusted relatives, if living nearby, to step in and substitute for you while you are away for work.

Don't be fooled by thinking, well, if she doesn't behave better, then I'll go back to court and get it fixed.  Frankly, "appeasing the beast" doesn't work, you can't expect reciprocity.  She will do what she will do anyway.  And going back to court later to tighten the order could be a very iffy proposition.  (1) The court process is abysmally slow, (2) courts are reluctant to make big changes so you may only get bare minimum adjustments to the order, (3) it adds extra costs to pay lawyers, (4) you're faced with higher conflict while the case is languishing in court, (5) the kids face higher alienation attempts during a pending case, (6) etc.

Note:  All the above collective wisdom could be less applicable if in therapy she really was diligently applying the counsel in her life long term and make solid progress toward recovery.  But sadly, you can't assume that will ever happen.  It sure hasn't happened so far, not with all her intense Alienation and Blaming.  (At this point in life and in the relationship, with the marriage imploded, the odds of her recovering are almost nil.  Accept that.  Don't think your case is the one that will buck the odds.  If it happens, great, be pleasantly surprised but don't gamble your life and the children's lives on a lame horse!)  Too much rides on this, your future, your children's future, etc.

[justaboutdone]

Outstanding post and thank you for all of your much needed insight!  I will save and reflect back on this post over the next year.  I have a lot on my side right now and I agree that later this behavior will be so much more difficult to prove, fix, or change.  I need to act now and I feel that I am doing everything I can short of a psychological evaluation.  It really is in the GAL's hands at this point.  Everyone professional involved has seen how horrible this behavior was and damaging(I have lots of evidence).  However, I guess where I have my doubts is because they keep questioning me and everyone else about how her therapy is going.  Everything seems to be hinged on how her therapy is going.  On the surface it would look great, but I can tell from her communication that she has not changed one bit.  She is just hiding her behavior as well as she can right now.  I do not understand why if someone threatened on numerous occasions the kids lives with proof by the way, why would they think twice about how her therapy is going? 

Despite her extremely volatile and dangerous behavior, she has her fingers around our daughter so tight that my ex has been extremely successful in starting her twisted process of alienating her from me.  I don't know how far she will go in the alienation process but I know she is very happy to hear that her efforts have been very successful.  I also know why she does it now from a video mentioned in another post in the forum, but how will my daughter ever get past this?  Theoretically we have 50/50 right now.  What is going to change her behavior or what actions can I take that will force her to loosen the grip on our daughter?  I don't even know how to prove it except for calling me by my first name.  Everything else that my daughter does and acts toward me would just appear that mommy and the daughter have a very strong maternal bond and dad does not handle his daughter feelings very well otherwise why would she hate daddy so much?

[ForeverDad]

I don't even know how to prove it except for calling me by my first name.  Everything else that my daughter does and acts toward me would just appear that mommy and the daughter have a very strong maternal bond and dad does not handle his daughter feelings very well otherwise why would she hate daddy so much?

A child would not normally hate a parent, especially without good reason.  For example, if you were a drunk, falling down drunk, you r daughter would still love you.  But here you are relatively normal, so why would she hate you if not for some external influence?

Dave you read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak?

Another book important for you to read is Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger.

[livednlearned]

Hi justaboutdone,

Lots of good advice from others. I just wanted to add that you will get healthier and stronger as you gain distance from your ex -- your perspective will change dramatically as you move on with your life. You don't want to outgrow a custody order made when your thinking reflects current patterns. It's much better to grow into a custody order that will be best for you and your kids.

Ask for more than what you think you'll get -- there needs to be room for negotiation. And have a goal and strategy. These divorces/custody battles tend to be two steps forward one step back.

If you feel that your wife's behaviors will be hard for the court to detect, part of your strategy must involve third-party professionals. Drive that process as much as possible. For example, with a custody evaluation, pick 3 of the best and then let her select one. Do your research on the professionals to find out what their reputations are. A good professional will be worth the investment. A bad one will be devastating.

You have to shine light on her behaviors and create a persuasive story to that effect. Document everything that happens. Everything. Make it a second job to keep accounts of what goes on.

See if you can get your D into therapy as soon as possible, preferably with a T who understands "reunification" -- this will be a T who understands the underlying PD issues that create alienation dynamics.

This board is a good place to vet your thinking. All of us go through a process of shedding our "doormat" behaviors in the beginning, so you'll hear from people who went through that process and learned. I wish I had this place with this advice when I began my negotiations. You can save yourself a lot of grief, and a lot of money, if you consider the peer support here. You cannot avoid the conflict, but you can minimize it.

For example, your wife threatened the kids lives. Show that you understand the seriousness of that to the courts by asking for primary custody. They will trust you when you say she's dangerous -- but only if you are consistent in that belief. That means you say things like, "I am so encouraged that my wife remains in custody. It's a promising sign, and I hope that the kids will see improvements once she has adhered to the therapy for years. Until she has made major changes in her behavior, I ask the court for primary physical and sole legal custody in the best interests of the kids. In 2 or 3 years we can revisit how she is doing, but until then it is safest for the kids if I am their legal guardian."

In other words, you're the adult, you see the potential for change, but you are cautious, guarded, and have a proposed solution that focuses on the kids.

[justaboutdone]

Livednlearned thank you for your insightful post. We have a GAL appointed to us and she definitely gets what is going on. The amount of documentation I have is incredible from anything I have ever heard or read. Her behavior was horrible.  She was just short of hurting the kids physically but she did hurt them tremendously in their heads with what they heard and witnessed.  Their will be a lot of undoing in the next couple years if I can help it.  But I have been extremely honest and more than honest thru the whole process.  I figure if they heard a lie or embellishment just once from me then it could kill my credibility thru the process. However, part of me being extremely honest was telling them that I do not believe she would hurt the kids. She loves them despite her illness. I also said that the therapy is not working and I worry not in the next year but after when nobody is in our lives peeling the layers back like they are right now. My concern for the kids is not right now but in the future. She is spending an incredible amount of effort to make herself look good and put on her public persona. I would say in the past 70% of her anger was directed at me and 30% the kids. I just think the GAL, CPS, lawyers, legal system all believe that her therapy will fix her problem and she will be good. She is already showing a lot of good behavior. I do have some very damaging behavior documented that I have shared. Most of that is in the form of her trying to alienate me and family from the kids and make everything extremely difficult. The part that also makes me doubt me getting custody is everyone involved is a woman. It is extremely weird that I am the only male involved in my whole divorce and I do feel their are a lot of people involved. While I don't believe a professional would allow that to enter their decision making, I am a little skeptical. I don't mean to offend anyone on the board here when I say that. It just continually enters my mind that the woman always gets the kids unless she is a drug attic or beating them.  I apologize again if these thoughts are too honest.   I appreciate any advice on my thoughts.

I listened to Splitting 3 times and clung to every word. I am reading stop walking on eggshells now but wish I had read it years ago. I have read divorce poison also. Fortunately, our co-parenting therapist is more familiar with Bill Eddy than I am. She has personally consulted with him. In fact she recommended that I read Splitting and Stop walking on eggshells. I was extremely impressed and told her that she is the first person I have met who has even heard of him.  I will be curious to learn more about her experience and advice on how to cope in my situation.

[livednlearned]

Hi justaboutdone,

It's pretty commonly understood here that there is a gender bias in the court system, so you can speak freely here about your perceptions and many will understand. I got curious enough to look into it, and found some studies that are interesting. More women do get primary physical custody, but more women ask for it. Of the men who ask for primary physical custody, about half get it. The studies only applied to five states, and they were conducted according to different research parameters.

It just points out that while there does appear to be a gender bias, it might be that lawyers and dads are caving in to that bias. For example, just because very few dads get primary physical custody in your county doesn't mean you should never ask. That's why we encourage you to ask for what you think is best.

About your wife not hurting the kids. You are treating physical abuse as the worst abuse, when studies show that verbal/emotional/psychological abuse can be far more damaging. That's why I say you need a custody order that you can grow into. I did the same thing in the beginning of my divorce, it's common. The truth is that you don't know what your wife is capable of -- it doesn't matter whether you think she will or won't physically abuse them. What matters is that you're even wondering. That's a sign you're in the red zone with a parent who has serious issues. Let the experts decide. You are concerned enough based on what you have witnessed, and your sole goal is to stop the bleeding so your kids can grow up with a fighting chance at psychological and emotional resilience. Your ex will make that unbelievably hard for you because whatever the court decides, you have to color inside those lines. Anytime you think you need more, you have to go back to court, which is expensive, stressful, and judges don't like to change the status quo.

Sorry for the lecture.   You have to be assertive now -- that's different than aggressive. If you have the volume of documentation you have, and third-party professionals who see things for what they really are, you have some serious advantages. Don't be afraid to voice your concerns, and it's ok to hold your cards close. A lot of us here have big issues with guilt. Let go of that if you can. This is the fight of your life and you can't be worried about people liking you to the point you give the farm away.

[ForeverDad]

Yes, there is often an unwritten, unspoken gender bias in many aspects of custody and parenting schedules.  Often the policies procedures and even the way they're written typically benefit one gender.  For example, historically it has been the husband who went off to work and the mother cared for the children.  My custody evaluator told me that 50% of his recommendation or the court's actions would be influenced by the parenting time history.  That sinks many of us relatively normal fathers.  In my own case, my then newly-separated spouse was facing trial in another court for Threat of DV.  Because my ex had made counter allegations over in family court, CPS got involved and stood up stating they had "no concerns" about me.  Yet the magistrate had one final question before he made a temp order, "What are your work schedules?"

I had a two year divorce, the last step before the trial was scheduled was a Settlement Conference in my lawyer's conference room.  I recall beforehand, while in my lawyer's office, her lawyer came in, sat down and started talking, just the 3 of us.  One of the things he said was that he himself was divorced and he had alternate weekends (same as what I had then during the temporary order).  He suggested that as something to agree with.  I said, "Sure, sounds good to me but I don't think Ms FD wants alternate weekends."   He was quiet after that.

By the way, that was one of the few times in my life where I had a wonderful answer at the right time.  I savored the moment.

By the way, the settlement conference failed within about 5 minutes or so.  She half-rose, clawing her fingers at me, saying, "I'll scratch your eyes out if you try to get custody!"  So much for court-ordered settlement conference.

However it is not always that the issue is about gender.  Another major factor is that the professionals are impacted by the intense emotional warfare used by the disordered spouses.  The overwhelming Blaming and Blame-Shifting is so intense, it is hard for them not to think, "Where there is so much smoke surely there has to be a fire."  Yes, even our female members here have had very difficult struggles to salvage their parenting.

It's almost like the court and professionals dance around the disordered parent, treating them with kid gloves.  Perhaps there is a reason.  I know that was the case at least once with me, my ex filed a grievance against my county sheriff's female investigator who was tasked with looking into my ex's failed attempt to get an Amber Alert put out on me in September 2006.  Professionals want to avoid being the focus of complaints at all costs.

Just a year ago at the end of 2013, some EIGHT YEARS after our separation, a magistrate noted that my ex had a continuing pattern of 'disparagement of Father' and 'denigration of Father' yet was "willing to give Mother one more try" and ordered that ex keep her equal parenting time for the summers.  So, though my ex's parenting time was reduced, why did I get 22% time in the beginning (and extending for well over 2 years) when nothing was seen wrong with me but ex with consistently poor behaviors after many years and periodically reductions now has come down to 25% time during the school year, 50% time during the summer and an overall average of 30.3% time for the year?  What I got with a few moment's thought years ago was much less than what my ex has after years of poor behaviors and the magistrates' soul searching.

Don't get me wrong.  Your case does appear to have vastly more proactive professionals involved than I had, I expect your outcome to be more favorable than mine.  I lived for over two years with alternate weekends before we settled for equal time.  You already have equal time and the professionals are clearly leaning toward having you take the lead in custody and probably parenting going forward.  Yes, they'll be reluctant to stop your spouse's contact with the children, but at this point you're way ahead of the typical curve for fathers.  So don't 'gift' it away due to being timid, being overly fair, or being overly whatever.

And beware of making decisions based on "but she loves the children".  Consider the entire picture.  Balance "she loves them" against the devastating effects of her years of poor behaviors.  When seen from that perspective, "but she loves the children" is a lame excuse to wimp out of standing up for what is best for your children.

[scraps66]

My $.02 from my experience which began 8/2008. 

Similar, my ex did not push back much on shared parenting.  My belief is that she knew she would have a stiff fight if she baulked at shared parenting.  BUT, the parenting since has been anything but shared.  She operates as if she has full custody.  She also knows that the few times I have used court intervention the consequences and enforcement of orders has been minimal if not non-existent. 

Take it for what it's worth, if I had it to do over, I'd file for full custody and let the chips fall where they may.  This would have gotten everything out in the open.  Primarily ex's mental state of mind which has been a struggle to present in court.  A CE would have been ordered if I filed this way and there would have been no way of ex getting out of a full psych eval which would have undoubtedly indicated tot he court that she is a huge risk to our children.

Fastforward seven years into our custody arrangement, she's got a better life than mine.  Or, at least she makes it appear that way, but we have an S10 that has significant emotional issues and I fear BPD.  Like her mother.   

[justaboutdone]

About your wife not hurting the kids. You are treating physical abuse as the worst abuse, when studies show that verbal/emotional/psychological abuse can be far more damaging. That's why I say you need a custody order that you can grow into. I did the same thing in the beginning of my divorce, it's common. The truth is that you don't know what your wife is capable of -- it doesn't matter whether you think she will or won't physically abuse them. What matters is that you're even wondering. That's a sign you're in the red zone with a parent who has serious issues. Let the experts decide.

I agree that the verbal and emotional abuse is worse.  She has raged and destroyed so many things to unimaginable yelling at our kids while they are crying and throwing up and she is still raging at them.  The amount of horrific incidents were incredible.  All of this starting when they were both very young.  When our son was about 5 years old, he got raging angry and starting using every swear word that she ever said all at once.  I was so shocked and all at once I quickly realized the horrific trauma that he had endured.  The guilt that I kept him in this and exposed for so long was enormous to say the least. 

Don't be afraid to voice your concerns, and it's ok to hold your cards close. A lot of us here have big issues with guilt.

I am curious what you mean by hold my cards close?  Keep them close and away not show them to who?

[livednlearned]

Don't be afraid to voice your concerns, and it's ok to hold your cards close. A lot of us here have big issues with guilt.

I am curious what you mean by hold my cards close?  Keep them close and away not show them to who?

You mentioned that you are honest almost to a fault, like telling the GAL that you didn't think your wife would harm the kids. That detail can be shared with a therapist, or with us here. The GAL is part of the family law system, and that system is not stacked in your favor. There is no need to share that with the GAL, because it helps your wife. And unfortunately, when there is an active custody battle, helping your wife can often mean exposing your kids to bad custody arrangement. They need you, desperately.

As unfortunate as it is, family law court is designed to be adversarial. There is a time and a place and certain people where you can express yourself openly. Hold your cards close when it comes to court. It's a chess game, and there are strategies, and the normal rules of engagement that guide your day-to-day life do not work in family law court.

Is your wife likely to harm your kids? The truth is, you don't know. Past behaviors give you tremendous cause for concern.

In family law court, there is no justice. There is only losing more or less. You want to be the person who loses less, so that you kids have a fighting chance at emotional resiliency.

[justaboutdone]

It's almost like the court and professionals dance around the disordered parent, treating them with kid gloves.  Perhaps there is a reason. 

I don't understand the dancing either.  They are timid about being proactive with her and routinely give her the benefit of the doubt.  Every time she has lied, I proactively respond with factual information against her lie.  The professionals then witness and acknowledge her lie but don't call her out on it.  Seriously though, if someone tells you just one lie let alone numerous, can you believe anything that comes out of their mouth anymore?  In life in general, if you are lied to by someone on the street just once don't you feel a complete distrust for anything that comes out of their mouth anymore?  Well unfortunately they still listen to and believe the words coming out of her mouth and I have to go in with fact to dispute her claims.  Thank goodness for my third job of logging and recording everything between us.

[justaboutdone]

In family law court, there is no justice. There is only losing more or less. You want to be the person who loses less, so that you kids have a fighting chance at emotional resiliency.

Wow, that might just sum it up the best I have heard yet about the legal side of a divorce!  I was trying to be as honest as possible with the GAL.  I have consistently reiterated my stance that I am seeking custody even though our temporary orders are shared parenting.  On my visit with the GAL I consulted my attorney but was given very little advice on how to interact with the GAL other than I should just be very honest about everything with the GAL and share everything I have with her.  That is the full extent of the coaching from her I received.  I guess I thought that I would receive more coaching from her.  The latest advice from my attorney is that we might have to order psychological tests.  I guess it just seems really difficult to predict where the GAL is sitting on her recommendation with us at this point.

[ForeverDad]

I believe family courts do not want to call anyone out on lies, they and children's services instead use courtspeak such as neutral 'unsubstantiated'.  Sometimes you'll get 'unfounded' but I've never heard my court say my ex 'lied'.  Instead one decision said a certain claim was 'not credible'.

Why won't they act more strongly?  I think part of it has to do with the concept that if they come down firmly then the reporter (accuser) may be less willing to come forward next time.  My ex has made numerous allegations, some worthy of orange jump suits for me if believed.  I've concluded it's as though they're cautiously saying, "But maybe the 20th one might have some truth in it."

What would psychological tests accomplish?  Would it include the professional's conclusion on how it would impact the children?  Would the professionals do anything with it?  In many places a Custody Evaluation includes Psych Evaluation tests but goes a step further and connects that to the impact on the parenting.  Administering a few tests (MMPI-2 is excellent) is helpful but the results need to be integrated with recommendations after multiple sessions with each parent and the children.  That's why CE is more expensive than PE.

[livednlearned]

Courts don't want to be up in a family's business any more than necessary. If I wasn't married to someone with a mental illness, I would fully support that! While I do resent having to be the person who enforces the court order, I try to remember that the court is trying to give me as much autonomy as possible in a situation where I need them to have my back. When I think about the civil liberties that courts are trying to balance, it helps me have some patience. I just wish courts understood mental illness better.

A few years ago in my county, a man received a bad custody eval, and drove to his kids' school and shot their mother point blank in the face while she was parked waiting to pick them up. A year after that, a mom who lost custody kidnapped her kids. I was in the same courtroom as a man who got an unfavorable ruling and then drove to the nearest shopping mall and whipped out his gun threatening to kill everyone. My lawyer said this is why judges try to give everyone a chance to be heard -- essentially validating the aggrieved person to lessen the feeling that there are winners and losers.

It's complicated. 

[justaboutdone]

A few years ago in my county, a man received a bad custody eval, and drove to his kids' school and shot their mother point blank in the face while she was parked waiting to pick them up. A year after that, a mom who lost custody kidnapped her kids. I was in the same courtroom as a man who got an unfavorable ruling and then drove to the nearest shopping mall and whipped out his gun threatening to kill everyone. My lawyer said this is why judges try to give everyone a chance to be heard -- essentially validating the aggrieved person to lessen the feeling that there are winners and losers.

One of the death threats my wife made was that she would drive the kids off a cliff if I got custody.  How can someone predict their behaviors or in my case be prepared?

[justaboutdone]

What would psychological tests accomplish?  Would it include the professional's conclusion on how it would impact the children?  Would the professionals do anything with it?  In many places a Custody Evaluation includes Psych Evaluation tests but goes a step further and connects that to the impact on the parenting.  Administering a few tests (MMPI-2 is excellent) is helpful but the results need to be integrated with recommendations after multiple sessions with each parent and the children.  That's why CE is more expensive than PE.

I have a friend in a similar situation as me in the same county but a different lawyer.  His lawyer advised him they will do a psychological evaluation and if it comes back BPD diagnosis then that would almost automatically paint custody for him.  Ever heard of this from anyone on here?

[ForeverDad]

In my county they avoid making a diagnosis like the Plague.  My lawyer told me not to "play doctor".  Instead they looked (a little) at the behaviors.  We were ordered to do psych evals when we separated and disclose them to the other lawyers but that was before I filed for divorce.  My eval was done by a grad student from the local university, was one page and concluded I suffered from Anxiety.  I could have told them that, surely I did.  StbEx?  I never heard whether she took her eval, a couple months later the TPO cases against each other were dismissed and that was that.

I recall the CE telling me in the first session, "Parenting time history means 50%, I'm not here to diagnose anyone, I'm just here to recommend about custody and parenting."  Fortunately the CE was excellent and wrote a good custody evaluation, summarizing that "Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can."

[scraps66]

Court ordered both me and exuBPDNPDhistrionincantisocial... .w to get a psychological.  A year and several trips to court for contempt and motion to enforce, produced a bogus PE for my ex.  A crazy judge (or one with the help of my unethical lawyer) produced an order that did not specify using the Dr. I used - a well respected forensic psychologist.

My PE and the report was thorough and documented a statement that, "the results show that Mr. Scraps shows no signs or pathology or mental issues that would affect parenting."  Good to have.

My ex's report, inappropriately states, "Ms. ExScraps is a good mother."  Not so good to have - for me.

I still have in the back of my stubborn head that it would be "nice" to have a credible PE in my back pocket that I could use or reference at any time. 

I still don't have that PE, but I still think how valuable it would be.  I am just this am considering an e-mail to my L about how to go back and revisit this as we are currently in disagreement about our S10s behavior and a recommendation to move him to a new school that has better support for his behavior.  Of course ex says that he doesn't have significant issues, the school hasn't handled him properly - for four years now, and I just want to "do the opposite of what she wishes." Insert projection here.

In a round about way, if you feel it is worthwhile to get a PE, do it and have it done PROPERLY. 

[GaGrl]

A few years ago in my county, a man received a bad custody eval, and drove to his kids' school and shot their mother point blank in the face while she was parked waiting to pick them up. A year after that, a mom who lost custody kidnapped her kids. I was in the same courtroom as a man who got an unfavorable ruling and then drove to the nearest shopping mall and whipped out his gun threatening to kill everyone. My lawyer said this is why judges try to give everyone a chance to be heard -- essentially validating the aggrieved person to lessen the feeling that there are winners and losers.

One of the death threats my wife made was that she would drive the kids off a cliff if I got custody.  How can someone predict their behaviors or in my case be prepared?

This hits a nerve.  My DH told me he stayed with his then-uNPD/BPD wife for many years following a conversation he held with her regarding the possibility of separating.  Her replay was ," If you leave me, I'll burn down the house with the children in it."

And he believed her.  His assessment was that she was capabile of disreulating to the degree she could do this.

I don't know how you predict or assess what could happen, but there needs to be some kind of safeguard in there for the extinction bursts.

[catnap]

Good advice being posted.  Something to consider is that the percentages of acting out against you vs the children may shift when you are no longer available to be the "target". 

Do take an assertive approach as liveandlearned suggested.  Due to Mom's threats to harm the children and other bad behaviors what about asking for sole custody and Mom gets professionally supervised visits until the case can be revisited to evaluate Mom's progress in therapy? 

Even though everyone involved in your case is female might actually be in your favor--females tend to be more perceptive to other female's bad behavior.

My son successfully won sole custody of his then 7 month old daughter and his ex got professionally supervised visitation (she had to pay for) in a county where it is extremely rare for the father to even get primary custody.  Your documentation sounds very thorough about her bad behaviors with the children. 

A little bit of information on professionally supervised visitation--the visiting parent is monitored during their visit and if the  rules are not followed (like the Mom bashing the father) the visit is immediately terminated.  They file reports with the court and your attorney. 

[momtara]

Just re-read the beginning of this, and Forever dad's initial posts should be finable somewhere on this site - they're great! I can really relate to this: "Beware of self-sabotaging feelings like overly fair, overly thoughtful, overly nice, overly whatever"

I have spent thousands of dollars and gone through hell over wanting to be fair and nice to my ex. Of course, I do have to remember what it must feel like to only have your own kids three overnights a month, and to be out of their life due to a mental illness. But he can't take care of them beyond a certain period, and the bottom line is that it's better if they're not with him most of the time.

[momtara]

I've read more and seen that she threatened the kids' lives. There are not always warnings when a parent will hurt someone, but I would take any overt threat seriously. There is usually a threat at some point before someone hurts their kids. I asked our old parent coordinator, a forensic psychologist, about whether she'd ever had a case where the ex hurt the kids. She said she had never had a case where it was a surprise. This was a relief in one sense and not another.

She may just be threatening you. People say angry and desperate things when faced with loss. But I wouldn't brush it aside completely.