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Topic: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . . (Read 1330 times)
takingandsending
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #30 on:
May 01, 2015, 04:02:06 PM »
Interesting, Leaving. That is the point I was wondering about, namely that loving in absence of having learned self-love is a facade of sorts. Not sure I entirely agree with Osho or the author of the BPD article on co-dependency with respect to the calculated and carefully disguised intent of people who chronically put others ahead of themselves. It's a mixed bag is my best guess.
We enter the world in extreme dependency, and as is the wont of young children, we imbue everything with meaning that relates back to our developing sense of self. At first as infants, nothing is separate from us, the universe revolves around us. Gradually this view shifts to the point that we see ourselves as separate, unique, in relation to others. Deficiencies appear in our world - our parents, our families, our selves. Without security, stability and guidance at those tender times, we fill in the narrative that explains the internal hurts that we experience - we make them about us. Is this ego at work? Yes. Is it parasitic and maleficent? Not so much. Over time, we learn to navigate the waters of human relationship, and the co-dependent soon discovers that self-sacrifice is rewarded and even sometimes praised by virtue of already knowing that anything but self-sacrifice is condemned.
In my FOO, anything that resembled self-interest ahead of self-sacrifice was considered selfish. Where can you go in that paradigm? How can you make sense of that? And was I wrong to conclude that it is better to love others than loving oneself? No one told me to choose this. It wasn't as if I wasn't going to be fed and clothed if I didn't adopt this model. It was more a matter of finding explanations for when loving kindness was taken away from me and what helped to return me into the good graces of love from my parents and siblings. These things very much occupy the minds of children and make the world that they live in bewildering and frightening. It's one reason that the fairy tale stories have such universal appeal to children. Show them some nightmare inducing, terrifying spectacle - they embrace it because they have likely lived some version of it that seemed to them quite as big and real as the fantastical dilemma presented in the story books.
In the end, despite the warnings of Osho, we each get to choose and adopt our own path out of the psychological forest. For me, I believe that enlightenment is the realization of selflessness, inseparable from the apparent self. I believe, as GK states, that as we perfect self-love, our capacity to love others only increases, but that we certainly are not wrong for loving others, and that there likely is never any 100% absence of self-love, as I think that is the essential nature of life.
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waverider
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #31 on:
May 01, 2015, 06:33:44 PM »
Quote from: takingandsending on May 01, 2015, 04:02:06 PM
In the end, despite the warnings of Osho, we each get to choose and adopt our own path out of the psychological forest. For me, I believe that enlightenment is the realization of selflessness, inseparable from the apparent self. I believe, as GK states, that as we perfect self-love, our capacity to love others only increases, but that we certainly are not wrong for loving others, and that there likely is never any 100% absence of self-love, as I think that is the essential nature of life.
Once you can self love in a healthy, as opposed to narcissistic, way, then we can accept ourselves warts an all without guilt. Without guilt or shame we can examine ways to be far more objective and fair in the way we react to others. Even more accepting
Denial, delusions and facades are all defensive tools to prevent our true selves from being exposed as a result of not being proud of who we are.
Once you can have pride in who you are it is like the clouds lift and life becomes far more bright and clear, whatever your lot in life
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waverider
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #32 on:
May 01, 2015, 06:46:44 PM »
Loving yourself and centering yourself provides a benchmark by which you judge what is a healthy way to "love" others. pwBPD often have very little self awareness hence their measure of what is appropriate towards others is often skewed. It can be either nil or over the top almost like trespassing or stalking and generally crossing boundaries.
Endless crossing of other people boundaries causes the intertwining of enabling and codependency. This creates chaos as individual push and then withdraw in response to their own needs, leaving the other is a state of flux, over which they have no control.
Supply and withdraw is the cornerstone of addiction and the negative consequences of it.
The need to rescue others before rescuing ourselves often leads to misguided attempts which can do more harm than good. This is one of the reasons on this site we focus so much in centering ourseleves as the main priority
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Leaving
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #33 on:
May 01, 2015, 07:05:28 PM »
Quote from: takingandsending on May 01, 2015, 04:02:06 PM
Interesting, Leaving. That is the point I was wondering about, namely that loving in absence of having learned self-love is a facade of sorts. Not sure I entirely agree with Osho or the author of the BPD article on co-dependency with respect to the calculated and carefully disguised intent of people who chronically put others ahead of themselves. It's a mixed bag is my best guess.
We enter the world in extreme dependency, and as is the wont of young children, we imbue everything with meaning that relates back to our developing sense of self. At first as infants, nothing is separate from us, the universe revolves around us. Gradually this view shifts to the point that we see ourselves as separate, unique, in relation to others. Deficiencies appear in our world - our parents, our families, our selves. Without security, stability and guidance at those tender times, we fill in the narrative that explains the internal hurts that we experience - we make them about us. Is this ego at work? Yes. Is it parasitic and maleficent? Not so much. Over time, we learn to navigate the waters of human relationship, and the co-dependent soon discovers that self-sacrifice is rewarded and even sometimes praised by virtue of already knowing that anything but self-sacrifice is condemned.
In my FOO, anything that resembled self-interest ahead of self-sacrifice was considered selfish. Where can you go in that paradigm? How can you make sense of that? And was I wrong to conclude that it is better to love others than loving oneself? No one told me to choose this. It wasn't as if I wasn't going to be fed and clothed if I didn't adopt this model. It was more a matter of finding explanations for when loving kindness was taken away from me and what helped to return me into the good graces of love from my parents and siblings. These things very much occupy the minds of children and make the world that they live in bewildering and frightening. It's one reason that the fairy tale stories have such universal appeal to children. Show them some nightmare inducing, terrifying spectacle - they embrace it because they have likely lived some version of it that seemed to them quite as big and real as the fantastical dilemma presented in the story books.
In the end, despite the warnings of Osho, we each get to choose and adopt our own path out of the psychological forest. For me, I believe that enlightenment is the realization of selflessness, inseparable from the apparent self. I believe, as GK states, that as we perfect self-love, our capacity to love others only increases, but that we certainly are not wrong for loving others, and that there likely is never any 100% absence of self-love, as I think that is the essential nature of life.
I guess we need to define love. In our culture, it is rare that a child receive unconditional love which I believe is the root of many of our problems today. Sometimes people express love to people who continually hurt them like how abused children love their parents and then grow up feeling they need to make others love them- that they need to earn self worth in order to receive love from others. The sad thing is that the person never feels worthy enough and is conditioned to believe they must keep working harder to please others.
Sounds like you and I grew up learning love under the same conditions. It was always strange to me and very uncomfortable. Did you feel that way too? I noticed the way other families related and I knew that kind of love was missing in my own home. My friends had siblings and they would always tell each other, ' Love you' as they walked out the door or at the end of phone calls. I wanted to be like them and I spent more time with them than I did with my own family. Everyone in my family appeared to love each other as seen in all the family photographs but those were part of the illusion- a very confusing one for me. To this day, I look at those photographs and every one of them is stained with a dark painful memory of something that had happened just moments before the camera flash. Smile, be happy, don't be bitter, don't dwell on what happened... .just smile.
When we love ourselves, we don't feel the need to do anything to receive love from others because we don't need it. Therefore when we offer it, it is unconditional. Loving everything and being attached to nothing is a difficult paradox for us to grasp because of our emotional and physical needs But, ideally just having the awareness of what our needs are and how they affect our behavior and how we love others can help us achieve that kind of emotional freedom.
The question I ask myself is whether I am acting out of need or desire/want. I want to experience love with someone but I don't need it so I just give it freely from my heart. I want someone to love me who doesn't need my love because their need changes the value of that love by putting conditions on it.
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Crumbling
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #34 on:
May 01, 2015, 08:58:02 PM »
Quote from: waverider on May 01, 2015, 06:46:44 PM
Endless crossing of other people boundaries causes the intertwining of enabling and codependency. This creates chaos as individual push and then withdraw in response to their own needs, leaving the other is a state of flux, over which they have no control.
This is a really good way to think about enabling! And really helps explain why I started to have positive results when I started to set clear boundaries I stuck to. I guess I just never made the connection between the two before. It also helps explain the extinction bursts we see happen when a new boundary is set and enforced.
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #35 on:
May 02, 2015, 04:53:37 PM »
Quote from: Leaving on May 01, 2015, 07:05:28 PM
I guess we need to define love. In our culture, it is rare that a child receive unconditional love which I believe is the root of many of our problems today. Sometimes people express love to people who continually hurt them like how abused children love their parents and then grow up feeling they need to make others love them- that they need to earn self worth in order to receive love from others. The sad thing is that the person never feels worthy enough and is conditioned to believe they must keep working harder to please others.
When I read this, it made me think of the distinction between love as a feeling and love as an action verb. I have been pondering some of the stuff that has been brought up in this thread. I feel self love for myself. I can say that I love myself or feel love for myself. However, I don't know how to have love for myself that takes the form of an action verb. Acting in ways that show self love towards myself has been hampered by those around me telling me that taking care of myself in active ways is selfish.
Excerpt
To this day, I look at those photographs and every one of them is stained with a dark painful memory of something that had happened just moments before the camera flash. Smile, be happy, don't be bitter, don't dwell on what happened... .just smile.
We rarely took family photos growing up. My parents have one family photo on their wall. I think it was taken when I was 8 or 9. I can vividly remember all of the BS that happened surrounding those photos. The day of the photo shoot there was some kind of drama. My oldest sister had this thing about her hair brush. Leaving the house usually involved lots of drama with her ranting and raving about her brush. And then, when the pictures came in, mom spent too much money and dad threw a fit and she had to take a whole bunch of them back. It was crazy.
Excerpt
When we love ourselves, we don't feel the need to do anything to receive love from others because we don't need it.
I have a vague thought related to this. I don't feel like I did things to receive love. I feel like I did things to avoid hatred and to avoid being punished. I didn't really care if I was loved. I just didn't want to be hated. I didn't want to be punished. I didn't want to create drama or be the cause of drama. I didn't want to upset other people because I grew up around people that didn't just get upset. They would rage in very scary ways and I didn't want any part of that. I just wanted peace. I think I feel that way with my husband too. I don't really give a rat's patooty if he loves me. All I want is peace. I would like it if he was a little more thoughtful at times. I realize that is a pipe dream and it does not matter what I do or don't do. None of that is going to impact whether or not he is thoughtful or checked in.
Excerpt
The question I ask myself is whether I am acting out of need or desire/want. I want to experience love with someone but I don't need it so I just give it freely from my heart. I want someone to love me who doesn't need my love because their need changes the value of that love by putting conditions on it.
I think everyone has a need for love. I think the bigger question is whether or not that love needs to be romantic love as you would find in a marriage or romantic partnership. Romance comes and goes in healthy relationships. It is having some kind of regard for each other and some kind of foundation to keep things going when the romance is gone. Even if I don't have that loving feeling towards my husband, I can still do loving actions. Even if I don't respect him, I can have regard for him and treat him well because he is a human being and the father of my children. Whether or not he does that in return is not up to me.
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #36 on:
May 02, 2015, 04:57:32 PM »
Quote from: Crumbling on May 01, 2015, 08:58:02 PM
Quote from: waverider on May 01, 2015, 06:46:44 PM
Endless crossing of other people boundaries causes the intertwining of enabling and codependency. This creates chaos as individual push and then withdraw in response to their own needs, leaving the other is a state of flux, over which they have no control.
This is a really good way to think about enabling! And really helps explain why I started to have positive results when I started to set clear boundaries I stuck to. I guess I just never made the connection between the two before. It also helps explain the extinction bursts we see happen when a new boundary is set and enforced.
I think this also helps me to understand why *I* got so confused and lost my way. He didn't really have any boundaries and my boundaries were repeatedly crossed. I would try to set boundaries and he would nag and badger and pester until I gave in. A lot of times, it felt like being in an interrogation chamber. I pretty much taught him that if he badgered enough, I would give in. It was incessant badgering and nagging. I think I would have had to be super woman or something to have withstood the badgering without giving in. Even the kids aren't as bad as he was there for a while. It created complete and utter chaos because I felt like I had no way to protect myself. And I never really knew from one day to the next how things were going to be. It was completely unpredictable and it fed the beast.
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Grey Kitty
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #37 on:
May 02, 2015, 08:17:13 PM »
Quote from: vortex of confusion on May 02, 2015, 04:53:37 PM
... .made me think of the distinction between love as a feeling and love as an action verb. I have been pondering some of the stuff that has been brought up in this thread. I feel self love for myself. I can say that I love myself or feel love for myself. However, I don't know how to have love for myself that takes the form of an action verb. Acting in ways that show self love towards myself has been hampered by those around me telling me that taking care of myself in active ways is selfish.
Ding, Ding, Ding.
You just found something you were programmed with... .that you could start changing.
Pick one thing you were consistently told was selfish if you did it for yourself... .that would be a way to act with love for yourself... .and start doing it!
Even though you feel like you are being selfish or hear that kind of voice in your head... .
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waverider
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #38 on:
May 03, 2015, 07:14:01 AM »
Self love helps you value your own boundaries as worthy. It makes it easier to think it totally unreasonable to allow them to be crossed, and hence enforcement becomes easier.
It is a good defense against enmeshment.
It all starts in self belief that we have a right to be proud of ourselves. Not for what we have done, but knowing that we are doing our best and working on doing better each day.
Learning the difference between enabling and supporting, we can choose for ourselves which we want to do. We can choose either, that is our choice. It is no choice though if you don't know the difference in the first place
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Cat Familiar
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #39 on:
May 03, 2015, 11:11:48 AM »
Many years ago when I did some counseling after my first marriage ended, my counselor told me "We have to build you a
self
." I too had been manipulated by my mother and told that any self-focus was selfish. She even corrected me as a very young child for saying "I" and I remember a time when I wanted to show her a trick I had mastered on the swing set and she criticized me for needing attention.
For far too many years, the only way I could feel good about myself was through other people's positive regard and I did whatever I could to earn that. Certainly that put me in a very vulnerable and unstable position, especially since my first husband also was a pwBPD.
Another concept I learned from that therapy was the idea of "healthy selfish." Even though I married another pwBPD, I never have lost myself the way I did in my first marriage. It's so common for people to try to manipulate us through calling us selfish. Now when my husband tells me I'm self-centered because I don't want to do something he wants, then I agree with him. I've been successfully inoculated against the fear of selfishness.
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #40 on:
May 03, 2015, 01:41:53 PM »
Quote from: Cat Familiar on May 03, 2015, 11:11:48 AM
Many years ago when I did some counseling after my first marriage ended, my counselor told me "We have to build you a
self
." I too had been manipulated by my mother and told that any self-focus was selfish. She even corrected me as a very young child for saying "I" and I remember a time when I wanted to show her a trick I had mastered on the swing set and she criticized me for needing attention.
I strongly believe that I have a self. I don't need to build it. I have to find ways of being comfortable with expressing that self and honoring that self out loud. It isn't so much that I need approval. It is more that I need to not be criticized and torn down for being me.
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #41 on:
May 03, 2015, 01:54:19 PM »
Quote from: Grey Kitty on May 02, 2015, 08:17:13 PM
You just found something you were programmed with... .that you could start changing.
Pick one thing you were consistently told was selfish if you did it for yourself... .that would be a way to act with love for yourself... .and start doing it!
Even though you feel like you are being selfish or hear that kind of voice in your head... .
I am on it already.
I went out by myself the other day and went shopping and bought myself an outfit that wasn't on clearance. And, I asked him to do the night time parenting over the weekend. I splurged and bought some fondant so I could experiment with it. I baked cupcakes without the kids and played with my fondant. And I bought myself a cake pan that I have been wanting for a while. I feel really silly to get such pleasure out of such small things that I have denied myself for so long.
Yesterday, I was trying to have a discussion with my husband and he was getting snotty. Instead of trying to wade through it and take a chance at things getting worse, I told him, "Look, I want to have a discussion with you but I can't do it when you get snotty with me. This discussion is over." He seemed a bit taken aback but he was cool with it. I felt like I sounded like his mother. I have resisted that for a really long time. I think I am going to have to learn to embrace that to a certain degree because that seems to be the only way that he responds to me setting boundaries.
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Crumbling
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #42 on:
May 04, 2015, 07:08:03 AM »
Yeah, for your shopping spree! Sounds like you had fun! That's so great. Investing in you is never a dumb idea, and is definitely NOT silly! I'm proud of you, V. Keep up the good work.
Quote from: vortex of confusion on May 03, 2015, 01:41:53 PM
I strongly believe that I have a self. I don't need to build it. I have to find ways of being comfortable with expressing that self and honoring that self out loud. It isn't so much that I need approval. It is more that I need to
not be criticized and torn down for being me.
Those words... .'not be criticized and torn down for being me'. That is really important, absolutely! I take it, from my own experience, that it is your H that is the criticizer. Aside from wearing ear plugs whenever he is in the room, how can we get this to stop? I find it really difficult to accept this behavior, so I have set a boundary against it. It has taken total commitment to catching him each and every time he does it and calling the stops to get my H to back off. Some days, it would be constant and non-stop, regardless of my words. When that happens I say, "obviously, you are having difficulty controlling your words today. We need to be in separate places right now, because I can't take the belittling any more than you can make yourself stop doing it." Then I'd give him the choice, "do you want to leave or should I?"
Now, I find that if I do this, he will come back with an apology and acknowledgement (="I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep doing this." This is when we start talking emotions and things that have happened in the short term that may have caused his negative head-space. Like I said, right now, I feel more like a therapist to him than a wife... .hey, but at least I'm not being put down all the time! Sometimes he's too much into the negative head-space for this to pull him out, but that is when he needs to look after himself, and I need to step away. That's my boundary. All we can do is lead the horse to water, right?
You have said so yourself, Vee, you wont let him belittle the girls. So don't accept that he does it to you. That little wounded girl inside of you (the one your mom taught you to ignore) needs to be protected from negative influences just as much as your daughters do. That is self love. That is saying, I'm too special to be spoken to that way, and that's not selfish, that's healthy.
If 'Mom's word is final' in his eyes, than I don't see any reason why you shouldn't play that card. You are doing it to protect the little girl that is you, like a mother should. I'm beginning to understand the 'emotional leader' role, I think a little better. Sometimes I need to be the drill sergeant, sometimes Dr. Crumbsy, sometimes mom, or in my case, being grampy (he really has no respect for his mom, so that doesn't work for me)... .
Here's another simple thing you can to do help yourself feel more respected: When your cold, turn up the heat. When you are hungry, eat. When you need air, go get it. If you need to cry, cry. This is about learning to recognize your own needs. I still do it quite often, ignore those things, because they feel less important than what I'm doing at the time, or whatever. But I am working on this daily now. I am teaching myself to respect myself and my own needs more. If I don't, no one around me will. That's a lesson hard learned!
Do you display things you've made and done around you where you can take pride in them each time they catch your eye? Do you know what your favorite ice cream flavor is, or favorite color, or favorite car, etc.? I got to a point where these things just didn't seem to matter... .but after a discussion at group about the self-love topic, I see where it is important. It's like knowing what your best friend puts in their coffee, it makes them feel appreciated. We can help ourselves feel appreciated, we just need to focus on the things that will take us there. When I get a chance, I will forward this awesome checklist they gave us at group that helped me hone in on the things that
I
was doing that were keeping my self esteem low.
Just to bring it all around to the initial topic, if enabling is rewarding negative behaviours, then letting him get away with belittling you is enabling. If you don't stop it, he will just keep doing it because there is no reason not to.
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #43 on:
May 04, 2015, 10:57:25 AM »
Quote from: Crumbling on May 04, 2015, 07:08:03 AM
Those words... .'not be criticized and torn down for being me'. That is really important, absolutely! I take it, from my own experience, that it is your H that is the criticizer. Aside from wearing ear plugs whenever he is in the room, how can we get this to stop?
I have been thinking about this and I still have a difficult time wrapping my mind around the fact that he paints me white on one hand while invalidating me on the other. I am sure others can relate. I don't think my husband overtly criticizes me. I feel criticized and torn down by some of the passive aggressive behaviors that are barely perceptible. It is the micromessages (subtle nonverbal communication) that gets to me. I am sure that part of the problem is me being overly sensitive. I am working on that. It isn't just my H. My family of origin is great at the subtle digs. I have cut contact with a lot of them but the damage is still there.
Excerpt
I find it really difficult to accept this behavior, so I have set a boundary against it. It has taken total commitment to catching him each and every time he does it and calling the stops to get my H to back off.
If it was just words, it would be easier to set a boundary. With H, it is the tone and attitude. The other day, I was trying to talk to him and he didn't say anything that was outwardly bad. It was the snotty tone that he used. I told him flat out, "I am not going to continue this conversation. You are being snotty with me." It helped.
Excerpt
Now, I find that if I do this, he will come back with an apology and acknowledgement (="I'm sorry, I don't know why I keep doing this." This is when we start talking emotions and things that have happened in the short term that may have caused his negative head-space. Like I said, right now, I feel more like a therapist to him than a wife... .
I refuse to be his therapist. I have stepped away from that role because I spent too many years being his therapist and support person. I don't have it in me any more. If he needs a therapist, he can make an appointment or talk to his sponsor.
Excerpt
You have said so yourself, Vee, you wont let him belittle the girls. So don't accept that he does it to you. That little wounded girl inside of you (the one your mom taught you to ignore) needs to be protected from negative influences just as much as your daughters do. That is self love. That is saying, I'm too special to be spoken to that way, and that's not selfish, that's healthy.
I don't let him belittle me either. Like I said, it isn't the overt stuff that gets to me. That is easy to see and say something about. I have been known to say, "Excuse me, what did you just say?" I have been known to pick a fight (in the past) if he tried to overtly belittle me. I think he learned a long time ago not to do that because I will put him in his place right quick.
Excerpt
Do you display things you've made and done around you where you can take pride in them each time they catch your eye? Do you know what your favorite ice cream flavor is, or favorite color, or favorite car, etc.? I got to a point where these things just didn't seem to matter... .but after a discussion at group about the self-love topic, I see where it is important.
I have a lot of things around my house that I can take pride in. I know what all of my favorites are. I know what my preferences are. I try to balance things out to make sure that everyone in the house gets to enjoy their stuff too. I want my kids to be able to assert themselves as individuals while still respecting each other.
Excerpt
Just to bring it all around to the initial topic, if enabling is rewarding negative behaviours, then letting him get away with belittling you is enabling. If you don't stop it, he will just keep doing it because there is no reason not to.
My concern isn't with belittling. It is more about figuring out what is giving him the space to be his own unique person while I am being my own unique person. It is figuring out what is supporting healthy growth versus enabling bad behaviors and encouraging stagnation.
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #44 on:
May 05, 2015, 01:36:23 PM »
V,
From everything you've written it's clear that your husband is not happy with himself. He may even have a lot of repressed anger ( toward himself) which manifests as PA behaviors. PA people find other people to express the anger that they can't ( usually spouses). My husband used to bait me into conflict until I quit responding. I guess that's also a form of projection where they treat you the way they really feel about themselves.
Bottom line is that anyone who doesn't like themselves has nothing to give back except negativity. He needs to love himself in order to love you.
Your husband needs you whether it's just to have someone to clean up after him or someone to 'beat up'. That's why he tosses you a crumb every so often- keeping you believing that there is hope for your marriage. One day your wonderful and the next few days you're invisible and worthless. I used to say that the only purpose my husband had in our marriage was to make me as miserable as he could. Anytime he was nice to me or did anything nice for me, I paid dearly. And oh how he kept score. One would have thought he was my bitter slave and that I had forced him to make bricks without straw. In reality, I suppose I did. I mean, he didn't have the emotional resources to make happiness and yet, I expected him to.
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #45 on:
May 05, 2015, 05:23:06 PM »
Quote from: Leaving on May 05, 2015, 01:36:23 PM
From everything you've written it's clear that your husband is not happy with himself. He may even have a lot of repressed anger ( toward himself) which manifests as PA behaviors. PA people find other people to express the anger that they can't ( usually spouses). My husband used to bait me into conflict until I quit responding. I guess that's also a form of projection where they treat you the way they really feel about themselves.
Oh no, he is not happy with himself at all. I don't know that he has ever been. And I know that he has always had a lot of anger bubbling just beneath the surface. He had to have a psych eval when he was in college so that he could do something. He said that the psychologist pointed out way back then that he seemed to have a lot of anger that was bubbling just under the surface.
Excerpt
Bottom line is that anyone who doesn't like themselves has nothing to give back except negativity. He needs to love himself in order to love you.
This made me chuckle. I don't even care if he loves me. I have ONE rule in my house and that is don't be a butthole!
Excerpt
Your husband needs you whether it's just to have someone to clean up after him or someone to 'beat up'. That's why he tosses you a crumb every so often- keeping you believing that there is hope for your marriage. One day your wonderful and the next few days you're invisible and worthless. I used to say that the only purpose my husband had in our marriage was to make me as miserable as he could. Anytime he was nice to me or did anything nice for me, I paid dearly. And oh how he kept score. One would have thought he was my bitter slave and that I had forced him to make bricks without straw. In reality, I suppose I did. I mean, he didn't have the emotional resources to make happiness and yet, I expected him to.
My husband can be a jerk but it isn't the in your face kind of jerkiness. I thought I was crazy for thinking that he was a jerk but when he met my now sister in law, he was "nice" but tends to have an air of arrogance/condescension/something that I can't quite put my finger on. I spent a week with her one time and she told me how big of a jerk she thinks my husband is. She did it in a relatively nice way and she has made it clear that she will support whatever I do but she completely sees why I get frustrated.
Yep, he keeps score. I brought something up the other day and he was all, "What about the last two weeks? Haven't I done better?" Um, yes, you have been pretty good the last two weeks. Being "good" for two weeks does not automatically erase everything. And I have to laugh myself silly over this one.
Last night while I was at work, I asked him to mop the floor. There is a story here. At Christmas time, he made such a big deal about us needing a new mop. He wanted to mop the floor. So, I went out and bought a new mop. He never mopped the floor. So, I said something about him mopping the floor and how the new mop hadn't been opened yet. I got home last night and he had to brag about mopping the floor. I didn't look at it too close. I thanked him and went about my business. This morning, I am up and in the kitchen and notice that there are still icky things under the edges of the cabinets. I didn't say anything. When the kids came in, I was all, "Hey look, daddy mopped the kitchen for us." He was at work by this time. This kids actually laughed out loud at the job that he did. I am NOT going to say a word. I know I am not crazy when even the kids make comments about his inability to, I don't know, put his heart/full effort in much of anything.
I don't have much hope for having a traditional marriage with him. I am hoping that we can be nice to each other and be friends and raise our kids together. I think wanting any more than that would be setting myself up for major disappointment.
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waverider
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #46 on:
May 05, 2015, 06:16:21 PM »
When you get the perception people are being disingenuous, and tally keeping the brownie points, it breeds a feeling of being used. It feeds resentment. Which shows. This in return is mirrored back on you and magnified in intensity.
To be able to recognize this and put an abrupt stop to it is important otherwise you get swept away with it. Participating in it enables it and reinforces it as 'normal" behavior.
VOC your boundary simply stated as not being a "butthole' without going into specifics is good, as the only judgement call needed is that you feel that. Too many specific are too many details to have to defend.
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Leaving
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #47 on:
May 06, 2015, 07:23:48 PM »
Quote from: waverider on May 05, 2015, 06:16:21 PM
When you get the perception people are being disingenuous, and tally keeping the brownie points, it breeds a feeling of being used. It feeds resentment. Which shows. This in return is mirrored back on you and magnified in intensity.
To be able to recognize this and put an abrupt stop to it is important otherwise you get swept away with it. Participating in it enables it and reinforces it as 'normal" behavior.
VOC your boundary simply stated as not being a "butthole' without going into specifics is good, as the only judgement call needed is that you feel that. Too many specific are too many details to have to defend.
VERY TRUE. I've had to learn to ignore my husband's passive aggressive behaviors and it's tough to do. He's just like V's husband and every day I live with the residue of his half-done jobs, constant delays, etc... . The more I ignore him, the less he attempts to goad me.
This is still no way to live in a marriage. I'm just trying to keep the peace until I can get out of here for good.
I watched an interesting movie last night called, The Prize Winner of Defiance Ohio and I must say, as depressing as it was at times, it was also enlightening and uplifting. I'm not so sure I could ever be the saint that woman was in her rather abusive marriage but I took away a different perspective on how I will deal with it. BTW, it's based on a true story.
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
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Reply #48 on:
May 06, 2015, 08:26:27 PM »
Quote from: Leaving on May 06, 2015, 07:23:48 PM
VERY TRUE. I've had to learn to ignore my husband's passive aggressive behaviors and it's tough to do. He's just like V's husband and every day I live with the residue of his half-done jobs, constant delays, etc... . The more I ignore him, the less he attempts to goad me.
This is still no way to live in a marriage. I'm just trying to keep the peace until I can get out of here for good.
Now that I have identified the annoying stuff in my husband and have admitted to myself that it is annoying/bothersome, I am also identifying those behaviors in other people and am becoming less and less tolerant. I ended my relationship with my sponsor today because she reminded me to much of my mother and my husband. I want to be surrounded by healthy people. My idea of healthy/normal today is so vastly different than it was a year ago.
Like you, I am trying to keep the peace. I want to give my kids an in tact home for as long as possible. As long as things continue to improve and remain peaceful, I think I will be okay.
Excerpt
I watched an interesting movie last night called, The Prize Winner of Defiance Ohio and I must say, as depressing as it was at times, it was also enlightening and uplifting. I'm not so sure I could ever be the saint that woman was in her rather abusive marriage but I took away a different perspective on how I will deal with it. BTW, it's based on a true story.
Hmmm. . .I will have to look up that movie. I am anything but a saint. I have a mean streak that I have to be careful about. I have found that as long as I am around healthy/normal/decent people, that mean streak stays pretty dormant. It is only when I feel pushed or backed into a corner that I start behaving in ways that I don't like.
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waverider
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #49 on:
May 06, 2015, 08:34:38 PM »
Quote from: vortex of confusion on May 06, 2015, 08:26:27 PM
Now that I have identified the annoying stuff in my husband and have admitted to myself that it is annoying/bothersome, I am also identifying those behaviors in other people and am becoming less and less tolerant. I ended my relationship with my sponsor today because she reminded me to much of my mother and my husband. I want to be surrounded by healthy people. My idea of healthy/normal today is so vastly different than it was a year ago.
This actually is a real problem and why acceptance is necessary as we do start seeing things lurking in almost everyone's shadows. This is because the Disorder's traits are often just exaggerated human behaviors.
You have to ask yourself this may be a trait of a PD, but is it really a problem? We can become phobic about them
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vortex of confusion
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
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Reply #50 on:
May 06, 2015, 08:55:59 PM »
Quote from: waverider on May 06, 2015, 08:34:38 PM
This actually is a real problem and why acceptance is necessary as we do start seeing things lurking in almost everyone's shadows. This is because the Disorder's traits are often just exaggerated human behaviors.
You have to ask yourself this may be a trait of a PD, but is it really a problem? We can become phobic about them
Thanks for the questioning! I have been pondering my relationship with my sponsor for a while. I didn't do anything sudden or willy nilly. In most relationships, it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't think it is PD level. I don't even know that my husband has PD level stuff. I know that the lessons and the questioning that I get here is helping me to have better relationships across the board.
In order to make progress with a sponsor or friend, I need to be able to trust them with personal stuff. One of the things that I haven't done in the past is acknowledged that somebody made me uncomfortable. In the past, I probably would have stuck with my sponsor no matter how uncomfortable I was because I was afraid of hurting her feelings or didn't want to go through the trouble of finding a new sponsor. Or, more importantly, I would dismiss my own feelings. I would have a gut feeling to something and instead of listening to it, I would ignore it or find ways to talk myself out of it.
For me, it is categorizing the types of friends and relationships that I have and what I want out of them. If it is a superficial friendship, then I am not going to be as picky. Where I feel like I got into trouble is that I didn't demand/want (not sure of the right word) more from somebody in a close relationship. It is okay to want more from my spouse than a friend that I keep at a distance. I have this vague feeling that I didn't really think that it was okay to want more out of a relationship.
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Leaving
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
«
Reply #51 on:
May 07, 2015, 09:21:43 AM »
Quote from: vortex of confusion on May 06, 2015, 08:55:59 PM
Quote from: waverider on May 06, 2015, 08:34:38 PM
This actually is a real problem and why acceptance is necessary as we do start seeing things lurking in almost everyone's shadows. This is because the Disorder's traits are often just exaggerated human behaviors.
You have to ask yourself this may be a trait of a PD, but is it really a problem? We can become phobic about them
Thanks for the questioning! I have been pondering my relationship with my sponsor for a while. I didn't do anything sudden or willy nilly. In most relationships, it wouldn't have been a problem. I don't think it is PD level. I don't even know that my husband has PD level stuff. I know that the lessons and the questioning that I get here is helping me to have better relationships across the board.
In order to make progress with a sponsor or friend, I need to be able to trust them with personal stuff. One of the things that I haven't done in the past is acknowledged that somebody made me uncomfortable. In the past, I probably would have stuck with my sponsor no matter how uncomfortable I was because I was afraid of hurting her feelings or didn't want to go through the trouble of finding a new sponsor. Or, more importantly, I would dismiss my own feelings. I would have a gut feeling to something and instead of listening to it, I would ignore it or find ways to talk myself out of it.
For me, it is categorizing the types of friends and relationships that I have and what I want out of them. If it is a superficial friendship, then I am not going to be as picky. Where I feel like I got into trouble is that I didn't demand/want (not sure of the right word) more from somebody in a close relationship. It is okay to want more from my spouse than a friend that I keep at a distance. I have this vague feeling that I didn't really think that it was okay to want more out of a relationship.
I laughed at your comment about how your sponsor reminded you of your mother and husband. I had a similar experience with a counselor last year. I trusted my intuition this time and never went back. I have such an aversion to abnormal behavior and her behavior didn't sit well with me. She was stoned one day on allergy meds, curled up in her blankie and half asleep while I talked. She would occasionally open her eyes , roll them, in response to something I said about my husband. She wasn't dismissing what I said... .she was rolling them in disgust for my husband. That didn't seem very professional to me. I refused to her pay her for that session. Anyway, I'm not talking about the usual personality quirks that people have. I'm actually very easy going. I'm talking about the obvious cues that someone is being passive aggressive/deceptive/coy, self absorbed, lewd, mean, irresponsible in destructive ways.
I meant to tell you in regard to the crumbs your husband left when he mopped that it was good that you didn't say anything to him because I'm sure he left them there as a reason for you to point out his inadequacies. This relates to him seeking that reinforcement that ' he's no good'. You mentioned once something about how he was never worthy in his mother's eyes. Well, that's how my husband grew up and so he does the same thing. It's really difficult not to take their behavior personally given that it is targeted at us but actually, they are not targeting us personally, they are targeting the role that we are assuming in the relationship. I'm the parent and adult and my husband is the man-child. It seems crazy that someone would seek that kind of reinforcement but it's a way to self sabotage and prove that mom or dad was right about them all along.
Has your husband ever gone to any anger management therapy? I've never been to that type of therapy but I think that it can benefit everyone who has difficulty communicating their frustrations in all relationships. My husband doesn't know how to communicate anything negative in a direct and diplomatic way. In fact, he outright lies and says he's fine and happy when he's not. He wasn't allowed to express any opposition or frustration as a child without being beaten or punished in some way. So, he learned to shut up, repress and then covertly punish his parents by doing things to make them suffer in some way. He totaled vehicles ( he's done this to two of my cars), was always late and made his parents wait for him, he would delay doing anything for them that they needed done, dropped out of HS two weeks before graduation, always ' accidentally' forgot to pay a bill or ' accidentally' did this or that, etc... . My husband has more excuses than anyone I've ever known. The worst part- the most dangerous part- of his PA personality is that he will even break the law just to punish me. I'm not talking about anything like robbery. But, he will drive down the wrong side of the road to scare me and he has cut neighbors trees to upset me and he once sprayed herbicide on a neighbor's property line even though he knew it was chemical trespassing and a federal offense which got us in trouble and we almost lost our business license. He also blew leaves early one morning before 7am because I asked him not to and when the neighbor came out, rather pissed, to ask him to stop, he completely ignored the man ( literally, would not acknowledge him at all) and the man called the police.
Have you ever read any blogs or books on passive aggressive behavior? Many years ago our first therapist told me that my husband was PA but I didn't know what it was and she didn't seem to make a big deal of it so I wasn't aware of how damaging it could be to my marriage, financial security and over-all health until it was too late. Everyone is PA at some point in their life... .like at work or in social situations but many people with chronic PA have some other PD hinged to it. My husband is NPD/BPD but it took ten years to get that diagnosis after the PA diagnosis.
If you're husband is as PA as mine, then I know all too well how confusing and frustrating and down right crazy it can feel. Their PA behaviors will become predictable. You'll find yourself anticipating when the next one will occur. I was always wondering if it was a man thing or a ' Norman' thing ( my husband's nickname). I spent years trying to figure out if he was learning disabled, retarded, autistic. But I knew he wasn't because he was capable of doing the right things the right way with others, just not at home with me. He's like two entirely different people. In a way, one is a man the other is a child. Guess which one I live with? This can drive a person crazy and to be coupled with the BPD is just over the top insane at times. Both of my therapists ( I have one at the women's shelter and one in private practice) said that I must be an amazingly strong woman to have dealt with him and his behaviors all these years. I feel more like an idiot actually but, I do know I'm strong and besides, they choose strong partners because they are not. They choose partners who exhibit everything they want to be and then resent the partner for being everything they are not.
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EaglesJuju
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Re: Enabling vs. supporting cont. . .
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Reply #52 on:
May 07, 2015, 09:53:11 AM »
This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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