Lying and Dissociation

[jhkbuzz]

Trying to understand something:  I've seen some senior members refer to lying as 'dissociation' - can someone explain the connection to me? I think my understanding of dissociation may be less than 100%... .

[vortex of confusion]

This is my take on the topic. A lot of times they don't realize that they are lying because they have disconnected from themselves and reality. To me or you, it seems like an obvious lie because it is nothing close to reality. They already have a reality that is broken. So, as a result, they lie a lot. The only thing is that, to them, it isn't lying. they are being truthful and honest. The lying comes about as a result of being disconnected or dissociated.

[eeks]

This is my take on the topic. A lot of times they don't realize that they are lying because they have disconnected from themselves and reality. To me or you, it seems like an obvious lie because it is nothing close to reality. They already have a reality that is broken. So, as a result, they lie a lot. The only thing is that, to them, it isn't lying. they are being truthful and honest. The lying comes about as a result of being disconnected or dissociated.

That makes sense, VoC.  I posted this months ago www.dianepooleheller.com/2015/01/video-4/ and I'm not sure how many people saw it, but I found it really helpful to understand BPD, and I think it meshes with what you've said. 

For example, if a pwBPD says "it's all your fault", maybe they truly do not see that they did or said things that contributed to the situation, because they have dissociated from it? 

My sense is that on some level, they do know, but the prospect of acknowledging responsibility is so terrifying because... .that opens up the floodgates of unbearable emotions from past traumas.

Maybe, clinging to a lie was their only way of staying safe and having a coherent sense of self as "good" as a child in interaction with their parents, as the therapist in the video explains to "hang onto what table scraps of love" were available in their FOO.

[Blimblam]

I see it play out a couple of ways.  

The first that they have found yhr validstion to rewrite history and have projected the acts they are ashamed of into the split black ex attachments. In this case they believe it to be true because it is consistant with the narrative they perceive as reality.  

Another way is the self image they have created with two different attachment/narratives are inconsistent with each other so they feel like they have to lie to avoid rejection and abamdonment.  

[jhkbuzz]

I guess I'm thinking about the lying in connection with her affair partners... .the dissociation that was probably occurring at that time. (And not that people WITHOUT BPD don't lie - they do!)

Interestingly enough, at the time she was unfaithful, her daughter had stumbled upon evidence that her boyfriend of 2 years had been unfaithful - and she was devastated.  She had also turned to her mother and I, at different times, for advice.

I later asked my ex how she managed to do that (while she was cheating herself).  I don't remember how she answered exactly, but I remember walking away thinking that she had compartmentalized.

I had seen her dissociate often during our r/s - just sort of "go away" or shut down when emotionally overwhelmed - but I never connected this type of behavior to lying - I didn't think there was a relationship.

[once removed]

i mainly only have visuals and experience and what ive read.

i assume, or perhaps you havent heard, of the partner who, when confronted with cheating, confronted with evidence, even video of cheating, they deny it. i dont think thats "lying" per se. the thing to remember is that feelings=fact.

my ex was angry and hurt by something id said. i kept trying to explain what i said is not at all what i meant. i validated her feelings and then got a little bit tired of the revisionist history and blame. i corrected her account with my own. sure i was biased, but i mean i laid out a timeline. her reply was "thats not what happened, but whatever." i dont think this is lying either.

i cant even remember the details, but my ex lied about some scenario she dreamed up, and raged at me based on this imagined scenario. i discovered she had lied, and when confronted she was ashamed and admitted that she lied. of course there was no real explanation of why, but there was no denial either. i think this is lying.

cheating/affairs can cause shame. i dont need to tell you how a pwBPD might react to that. but its also important to remember they may be dissociating DURING the act. ever seen one of those videos of a person on ambien interacting with whoever took the video, then watching themselves and not being able to remember it? thats actually blacking out, as opposed to dissociation, but it gives some insight into what dissociation can look like. its a mental blacking out.

but alas, i am not an expert, and frankly i dont know a ton about dissociation. just trying to offer some examples of what i think is lying vs dissociation.

[Sunfl0wer]

Interesting... .

This reminds me of my ex and his ability to "justify" behavior vs lying.

He would be mad at me, pull away, and during his "pull away" time which consisted of ST for a week or more at a time... .it was as though he considered himself removed from the r/s, unaccountable, in a sort of r/s limbo.  I know that if I did something un r/s like during this time, he'd rage and accuse.  If he behaved un r/s like during this time... .well his answer was that "We were not really committed at that time."

I wonder when justifying and creating intentional delusions end and lying begins?