codependent because of 15-yrs with BPD spouse--how to regain normalcy?

[shehitme]

Married to a BPD+HPD for 15 years, separated 21 months ago, divorced for 5 months now.

I definitely sacrificed too much of myself to keep the marriage together as long as it lasted. I've wound up reading a bit about codependency and being an "enabler," -- half of those symptoms make me think: That's ME.

But when I think of my identity, self-worth and self-esteem, I know that I am not looking for too much external validation. I've seen what that looks like in someone I dated. That's NOT ME.

So I think I'm exhibiting SOME codependency traits, and I'm wondering if this is natural after surviving 15 years with a BPD+HPD. Survival tactics and codependency overlap... .a lot.

How long will it take to be "normal" again? Anyone have experience with what I'm going through? The ex- is continuing to make life difficult and we have a teenage child, so I can't just avoid contact altogether.

... .and this is weird: the EX cannot and will not ever look at me at any of the kid exchanges. Is that typical?

I have this conundrum of whether to date or not at this point. If I try to avoid talking about my past and all the EX put me through, I think I'm shoving 90% of who I am, because the destruction (financial, emotional and reputational) that the EX brought on me and my teenage child still consumes me from time to time.  (Oh, I've tried therapy. I'm better off unloading my frustrations on some of my close friends that can take it.)

After having one woman break up with me because (she said) we weren't "soulfully connected." What I interpret that to mean is that I am shallow. Well, given I'm shoving 90% of who I am right now, no duh!

So with the next woman I've started seeing, I'm not holding back, at least not completely. I'm not sharing my belief that the EX was BPD or any of the really cray cray stuff, but I'm not shoving my feelings and that past entirely, either.

ADVICE?

[sbr1050]

I am very interested in this also.  I feel I handle myself perfectly on dates when it comes to discussing "The Ex!" (and I am EXTREMELY critical of myself).    But I feel like you - I feel like I am not really be truthful about who I am.  But, in my case, I go out with someone a few times, have a great time (and it appears they are too) and they just drop off. 

[shehitme]

I've had the same experiences dating online, where they just drop off after 2-3 dates with no explanation.

I intended to date to really get to know people, and at my age, 49, I thought the people I would be meeting would appreciate that perspective. It's not like we're in high school expecting that our hearts will go pitter patter and we'll "know" "true love".

I think my experience with the BPD has left me an un-believer in the "true love" category, and I'm more interested in finding (1) sane and (2) compatible, then "feelings" will follow as we learn more on the 4th, 5th and 15-20 dates(?). Then, barring RED FLAGS I might begin to trust said "feelings".

So I think the ones that fall off after the 2nd or 3rd dates are perpetually online looking for the "ONE" they think is going to show up.

[once removed]

hey shehitme  

i didnt neatly line up with what i read about codependency either. interestingly though, when i desperately described my relationship to a friend, before i knew anything about BPD, my friend told me id been in a codependent relationship. i still dont fully accept the label, but i accept the traits. in doing so ive also realized if you change the wording or situation around a little bit, it fits a bit better. for example, my self esteem is and always has been pretty intact and strong. my self efficacy on the other hand is another issue. subsequently i can see where that played a role in my relationship. and btw, low self efficacy can look a lot like low self esteem and vice versa. the codependent label is very useful if it fits you. recovery from the relationship and into better ones doesnt look much different regardless.

"I'm wondering if this is natural after surviving 15 years with a BPD+HPD"

whats natural is grieving and fifteen years is very tough regardless of BPD or not  

"How long will it take to be "normal" again?"

id start by asking what feeling normal means to you. i know it more or less means "not like this". but what is normalcy for you? what is your history with regard to feeling normal?

"... .and this is weird: the EX cannot and will not ever look at me at any of the kid exchanges. Is that typical?"

it may or may not have any given thing to do with BPD. if the person is BPD, it could be shame, it could be splitting/object constancy issues. if not, it could be anything. frankly, if so, it could be anything.

"I have this conundrum of whether to date or not at this point. If I try to avoid talking about my past and all the EX put me through, I think I'm shoving 90% of who I am, because the destruction (financial, emotional and reputational) that the EX brought on me and my teenage child still consumes me from time to time.  (Oh, I've tried therapy. I'm better off unloading my frustrations on some of my close friends that can take it.)"

validating and acknowledging and committing to your own recovery are not shoving any part of yourself. it is giving yourself time to grieve and recover. that is not to suggest dating cant or wont play a role in your recovery. the question to ask is what role and why. when i dated again i felt like i had something to prove. partly if not largely to myself. it did not go well, is all i proved. but on the flip side, the next time i experience a healthy relationship, wont i have proved something? what im illustrating here is that there is no right or wrong answer in general. it is unique to the individual. you should check your motives and be aware of them, but theres no one who can really tell you that theyre right or wrong.

what troubles me though is:

"So with the next woman I've started seeing, I'm not holding back, at least not completely. I'm not sharing my belief that the EX was BPD or any of the really cray cray stuff, but I'm not shoving my feelings and that past entirely, either.

ADVICE?"

yes. why were you telling a woman youd started seeing about this chaotic relationship youve been in? to be frank thats kind of advertising baggage. a healthy person is significantly less likely to respond to it positively. and what do you mean youre not disclosing a personality disorder of someone who is an ex to you and a stranger to her, but youre "not shoving your feelings and that past entirely either"? i think the question you need to ask yourself is: are you looking for a rescuer?

[UndauntedDad]

shehitme,

reading your post was very familiar (good name), except you are farther along than me; I'm still married to my wife 14 yrs but decided I'm leaving.

WRT to codependency label, I totally agree.  My T felt I really only expressed co-D traits toward my wife, survival tactics as you put it.  My family and co-workers don't generally induce or see any co-D behaviors.  I feel like there is a category of codependency which is completely compensatory, in response to one other person.  Remove that person (or their behavior) and the codependent behaviors may wane.

Having said that, I'm grateful for the label, since once 2 therapists and a friend labeled me co-dependent, I researched it, accepted that some parts fit, and then asked,  WHY am I co-dependent--there are no chemical dependencies, what would induce me to act like that?

That research led me to learn about BPD, and led me here.

Advice about dating, I'm not there yet but survived the past year with help from close friends I made recently.  Some of the closeness came from the fact that I slowly realized these friends had had exposure to alcoholism, depression, emotional abuse, and yes, even BPD.  It wasn't the first conversation topic, but sometimes people refer to things obliquely and you hear the "dog whistle" of experience.  I bonded with these people, and eventually shared a few details of my past, and gained tons of support in return.  To me, these friendships demonstrated "mutual dependency" which was so much more rewarding than my marriage.  I hope to eventually reach the same intimacy in dating--there are more damaged people out there than you think, not everyone has it all together but also not all laundry needs airing right away.

and to OnceRemoved, good advice, absolutely, but "a healthy person is significantly less likely to respond... ." well, who really wants (or expects) a healthy person after all the drama we've been through?  Sounds boring 

[once removed]

undaunted dad, i agree with you. and in some part im not sure i should have made the distinction between unhealthy vs healthy. "a given person" would be more accurate.

[enlighten me]

I also agree that we may not be co dependant as a norm but in a BPD relationship we are manipulated and brain washed into being co dependant.

I like my own space I havent dated or even been bothered about dating since splitting with my ex. Yes i like to help people but thats not a bad thing. The danger with post co dependant relationships is over compensating. We can end up swinging the other way and become selfish and withdrawn.

After a long term relationship its hard to know what normal is. We get triggered by little things that would make our exs blow up but a normal person wouldnt think twice about. One day I may meet someone and the only way I can see it working is to be honest. If they understand and accept what youve been through then they can guide you back to what is normal.

[shehitme]

I blame some of my "new" behaviors on "projective identification."

I never really understood "projection" until learning about BPD and the role projection plays. Then I looked at some of my own reaction to the BPD and saw behaviors I knew were never really me.  That's when I understood "projective identification."  Looking back to specific issues, sometimes it was a bit conscious--like an attitude of I'll show her--sometimes not.

All in all, it's just more that I need to let go to get back to "normal".

With my BPD, and I'm sure this is common, I had to cope throughout the relationship by learning ways to NOT communicate any form of disappointment, for fear that she would twist my words into criticism. Now I have to reestablish "normal" communications. Like maybe one day I'll be able to say words in the kitchen like "I think that needs more salt" without wondering if I'll sound like a monster! Does this sound familiar to you?

[LimboFL]

I am five months out and have essentially given up (for now) the chase of dating.

When I made some minor effort to engage in that endeavor, a couple of months ago, I realized that I am just not ready. In part, because I believe that I want it too much, after being essentially starved of reciprocal affection and the support one should expect, for four years. I ran with the idea that if only I could find that new love, this would be the fastest way to forget my ex and expedite my recovery. I actually believe this to still be true, however, unfortunately I believe that as with dogs who can smell fear, people can also sense when someone has a preoccupation and is still weighted down by something fairly deep inside. This, of course, is amplified if you actually share this with a date.

There is another negative that we, who have lived in very long relationships (I was with my ex wife for 20 years, then within six months in the relationship with my ex BPD, for four), suffer from. The belief that being completely open about yourself is the path to success in the dating world, especially in the beginning. In our search for a new partner, we want and expect full disclosure. We have been in such long relationships that we are able to look far deeper than the warts of another and expect the same from them. We want any possible new relationship to start on the right footing of truth and sincerity and that doing so requires divulging it all, in as non challant a way as possible. We want them to accept our faults and what we have been through because we know that we will accept theirs, that very little can shock us into not having the endurance to explore further and beyond the baggage.

Unfortunately, none of this works, at least not in the world of online dating nor is it really a good way to start in any dating circumstance. It is all too real and too deep. Ultimately, it is the way the dating world should work. The idea that one should lay everything out on the table, up front, so that it's out of the way, no secrets, nothing hidden. Sadly, it doesn't work that way. First, we forget that because of what we have been through, we have become very accustom to the idea of sharing our experience but more importantly receiving a response and validation from friends, family, people on this board, therapists etc. So we think it's completely normal. It isn't! People who have not been through what we have might have expressed sadness and confusion for lost love etc, but conversations never go as deeply as ours have, because our wounds go beyond a broken heart and deep into our psyches. I have said it before, when my ex wife and I divorced, after 20 years, while of course devastating, it wasn't the same mental catastrophe as the loss I have felt losing my exBPDgf. I wasn't online searching for answers to explain all of the craziness that I had been through. It was heartbreaking, friends and family offered comfort, sadness etc but it was the end, full stop. Not the same as with my exBPD.

Another way we do need to look at this is what explaining that we stayed in an abusive relationship for as long as we did says about us, to any new potential partner. We believe that it tells the world that we are compassionate, loving to the point where we will be there in the worst of times, etc etc. All of this is true but it doesn't translate properly out there. The only time it will is you happen to find someone with the same experience. Otherwise, anyone else will immediate wonder what was wrong with us for allowing ourselves to stay in such a relationship, not to mention the fact that as it pertains to mental illness far too many aren't prepared for the idea and ridiculously think of mental illness as though it is a transmittable disease. Maybe I am the only one, but while deeply empathetic, one does tend to look at someone who has lost a partner to death of is currently in the midst of losing a partner to cancer. The human mind has a tendency to just look differently at these poor souls. This is how people view us, if we share too much too quickly, about either the relationship with a disordered person or anything relating to anything that is real or negative.

The final problem is that most if not all of us are on this site because we love being in a relationship and have been in long term relationships, most of our lives and crave for that again. We want to fast track the bull___ first few dates process and get straight to the meat. We are beyond the games, the courting silliness that is "be mysterious etc." It's nonsense and we know it. Sadly, though, we do have to play the game. We have to seem happy and fancy free, which is not so wrong for the other side to want, because maybe they too just want to move forward and forget the past. All of us really just want to be happy again, and starting things of by expressing what are ultimately stressful and dark experiences does not really lend itself to happy beginnings.

I know that I am not really expressing myself properly and there is so much more that I could add to what I have written but I have to get on with the day or I will just spend the rest of it here trying to get some very complicated thoughts out of my head.

The bottom line is that, ultimately, success in finding a new partner will more than likely only come when the relationship with our exBPD is no longer something that we feel the need to share, at least not up front. When a new person meets us, they should meet the unburdened new and improved version of us. For as much as we crave love and believe that the answers lie in just finding that new love, ultimately it can't happen if we are still thinking about the old love. This is why 90% of rebound relationships don't last. I am not one who believes that I to spend the next year finding the issues that exist in me, even though I know that I have baggage, but after a false start in the dating scene, I have realized that I do need to be rid of the last relationship, to have exorcised it and fully regained my confidence, which can only be achieved by being alone for a while. The fringe benefit is that the less I now want to jump into a new relationship, the more attractive I am becoming. The less we yearn and appreciate that we can live with just ourselves, the further we get in the process necessary to attract the partner we crave.

As a last thought, I think it is critical for us to appreciate that just because we might be attracted to someone and vice versa it doesn't mean that they are right for us or vice versa. Sometimes, no matter how attracted to someone we are, it just isn't the right fit. The truth is that it will likely take us a whole slew of tries before we find the person who truly fits with us. We can and will find new partners. While, when I am ready, I will get back to online dating, there is also a part of me that believes that it might just happen organically, when the time is right. It will be easier and free of the anguish that comes with the whole cold call online dating scene. I will just be out, not looking and she will bump into me and things will move forward without all of the nonsense.

Hopefully, I have made some sense in all of my blatherings.

[shehitme]

LimboFL,

Your heartfelt response is hardly "blathering" 

If I could pay a therapist to share as much insight as you have I would still be in therapy. I have heard the words "what do you think?" far too many times from their sort.

You nailed my perspective when you said... ."We believe that it tells the world that we are compassionate, loving to the point where we will be there in the worst of times, etc etc" ... .and ... ."We want to fast track the bull... .first few dates process and get straight to the meat."

At 18 months out, and having had a few relationships already, I think I'm beyond the "rebound" zone, but I definitely still feel I crave being in a relationship, and I question if/why that is wrong.