When are we supposed to be honest?

[K1313]

I'm wondering about honesty with the BPD folks in our lives. One of my siblings recently called our BPDmother and spoke his piece. I heard about it because she threatened suicide over it to my other sibling who called me worried when he couldn't reach her the following day. At first I was kind of annoyed with the sibling who spoke his truth - what's the point? she's incapable of changing. it just hurts her and creates more conflict all around etc - but, if I'm being honest, I'm also pretty jealous. I'd love to speak my mind to our mother. I don't do it for a host of reasons - her being in very poor health, her being seemingly incapable of meaningful change, some FOG that I'm still working through and so on.

However, there have been a few times lately where she's asked fairly direct or pointed questions where I have not given truthful responses. I haven't flat out lied but I've definitely bent the truth like a pretzel in order to avoid the inevitable 3-5 hour long phone saga that would follow. Or even if she doesn't make a thing out of the truth then and there, at some point whether it be a day, weeks, months or years, she will find a way to bring it up in the most unexpected and hurtful way. She will take whatever glimmer of truth she's found and twist it into a weapon to be used for maximum impact. It would be impressive if it wasn't so devastating. So I dodge her fairly direct questions and then I feel really awful because I feel that I've been dishonest (honesty is hugely important to me).

When she last came down she stayed in a hotel and I went out of my way not to bring her to the house. After she asked why and if I felt like she was critical of my home... .Yes. You comment on the cats, the cat hair and the litterboxes (no matter how deeply and recently they were cleaned), you comment on how poorly cleaned my kitchen is (I went so far once as to hire a maid come clean mere hours before my mother came over. She walked in, looked around and told me I should hire a maid to clean my home.), spend hours complaining about the neighbors and their mess, search my closet for clothes you've given me to see if I still have them and interrogate me about how often I wear them and on and on. Yes you're critical and yes we don't want you in the house.

I didn't say any of that though. I dodged because I didn't want the hours long fight and I could already hear her rebuttal to each thing I would say because we've had variations of this fight my whole life. I don't believe that honesty is always the best policy (it almost always is but only almost) but when it comes to my mother I feel like I have to steer so far away from honesty that I'm not even on the same planet as it. This honesty issue is becoming something of an issue in and of itself due to my husband.

To sum up: he hates my mother and would be happiest if neither of us ever saw or spoke to her again. He would never dream of asking me to cut her off but he doesn't deny that my doing so would make him very happy. We are currently getting ready to sell our house and move and he has indicated a preference for her not to have our address or to come to our new home. Honestly, that sounds wonderful to me (even as I feel guilt for admitting it). Left to my own devices, yes, I would probably back down and let her have my address and see my house because I'd be too cowardly to say otherwise. But when my husband comes into play - I love him and he has shown me a level of unconditional love that I only dreamed of and I would willingly step into the fray for him. He has outright said that he would rather she knew that he doesn't like her - that he would be relieved and happy for that to be out in the open.

So I guess I wonder... .the next time this comes up - "[Your husband] likes me, doesn't he?" or "Is there a reason you don't want me to see your house?" - do I just tell the truth? It feels cruel to me to say "yes, my husband does not like you and is uncomfortable with you being in our home" even though it is true. That would hurt anyone let alone someone with BPD who lives in fear of rejection. But I'm also approaching the point where my husband has repeatedly expressed a desire to say how he feels (I want to stress that he has never pressed the issue and has been extremely understanding and supportive of me) and I keep asking him not to so as to spare me the drama from her but at a certain point, isn't that unfair to him?

P.S. I'm sorry my posts are always so long. It's hard to talk about your BPD person without one issue connecting into the next. Explaining BPD situations is like living inside a celtic knot... .one thread connects to another and that to another until everything is so tied together you can't really separate it.

[educator]

I don't have a pd parent, but I have a uBPD/unpd MIL.  I've been with DH for 12 years now.  In that 12 years I have learned the less information she has, the better.  MIL wants to meet with me to discuss the 3 1/2 years we were NC with her and she didn't see our DD's.  She wanted to have an 'honest' conversation.  There is no honest conversation with her though.

What would your mom do if you told her your DH didn't like her?  What would she do if you said she wasn't allowed at your house?  Would it make matters any better?  Would you feel better getting it off your chest or would the drama that ensued be worse for you then the release of finally telling her the truth? 

I've screamed at my MIL on two occasions because she was lying and I screamed the truth.  It did nothing but make me look out of control.  Then, I had to apologize for yelling.  And... .it did no good.  She didn't believe my truth, all she believes are her lies.  What would happen if your mom knew your DH didn't like her?  What would she do?  Threaten suicide again?

I don't do it for a host of reasons - her being in very poor health, her being seemingly incapable of meaningful change, some FOG that I'm still working through and so on.

I think this is key here.  I know my MIL is not going to change.  No matter what I say or do.  I can play nice and she's horrible.  I can be nasty and she's horrible.  So, now, I am VLC with her, probably going NC.  Have you ever tried medium chill on your mom?  That might work... .not sure of the link to it, but it's probably in the tools on here somewhere. 

I know it must be very hard.  My DH's family drives me batty.  I'm normally a very happy person, but the last few weeks I've been a mess because of drama that I've allowed myself to get dragged into.  Doesn't seem like your sibling who spoke their piece did much good though.

[Naughty Nibbler]

HI K1313:

I've only been around here for a few weeks.  Everyone here is helpful.  I'd have to say that the interaction at BP Central really makes my therapy sessions more productive.

So sorry for what you are going through with your mom!  My problem is with my uBPDs.  Having a supportive husband has to be a lifesaver for you.

I'm in the exploration stages of BPD.  I found an interesting technique mentioned in a post yesterday:  "Medium Chill".  Here is a link to one post about it:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=114204.0  If you use the search feature on this website, and enter "Medium Chill", you can find some variations and examples of how some have used it and how successful it was for them.

There are a lot of tools to discover and try.  I'm thinking that some of us will find that some tools are perfect for our situation and our BPD, while other tools might not be suited for our BPD (but would be helpful tools to use with others).  Perhaps the Medium Chill would suit your husband as a tool to use.

Sounds like there could be an advantage in NOT sharing your new address with your mother.  One word of caution,  after you have been at a certain location for awhile,  it is common to be able to Google someone's name and town and find enough information to end up with an exact address.  At least that is the situation in California and the availability of public records.  Aside from free webites, there are Lots of websites out there these days saying they can do a background check on someone for a fee.

I'm not trying to alarm you about your address.  Just thought you should be aware, in case you weren't familiar with some search tools out there.

I'd NOT make it easier for mom to find out your new address.  Might be strategic to keep with your current plan when you agree to have mom stay at a hotel in some neighboring town and you visit on neutral turf. Keep it about not wanting her to be subjected to your animals and type of housekeeping. 

I'm early into identifying my sister as uBPDs, but the truth isn't working with  my sister.  In her mind, I'm crazy and something is wrong with me.  When I've tried to mention unacceptable behavior, like ranting, calling me names and telling me everything she hates about me, I just get "you aren't perfect".  I'm far from perfect, but I'm not ranting, calling her names and verbally attacking her.

How far away can you move?

BPD is so complicated for many of us, so long posts then to be common.

Naughty

[K1313]

Thanks for your replies Educator and Naughty Nibbler.

You both mention Medium Chill. I've read about this before and read about it again at your suggestion. I think it works better for my husband. No pun intended but Medium Chill is thin ice for me. My mother is quick to view it as me being distant or cold and this causes one of two things to happen: either she asks me directly and it spirals into a very emotional phone call on her end that leaves me exhausted (even if I keep calm) OR she starts reaching out to my friends to find out what's going on with me under the guise of being worried about me. Obviously, I find it appalling and inappropriate that she does this to my friends and have worked hard not to let her get to that place.

On the honesty front... .Are there any tips for the best way to handle the following type of interaction?:

BPDmother: When [insert name of his family] visit, how often do they come to your house? How often do you see them when they're there?

Me: Oh... .I don't know. I mean his family is different about that stuff.

BPDmother: What about [insert name of a good friend of mine that she has resentment towards]? Does she stay in a hotel or with you?

Me: Uh... .I dunno... .*frantic attempt to change conversation*

I have a really hard time when she does this. I get really angry because I feel like it is none of her darn business but if I try to say that (in a much nicer way) it actually just makes it worse. It's better to fib a bit and keep her from getting upset.

And I forget who asked but currently we live a 16-hour drive from her. Our move would put us on opposite sides of the country.

[Suzn]

Hi K1313

My mother has done a couple things you've described, though in more of a round about way. Suggesting allowing my animals indoors is "unhealthy" (or dirty) as she sweeps my floors several times a day when she visits. Kills two birds with one stone in essence in relation to your examples.

I've been practicing using the DEARMAN technique and it's helped.

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. - Marsha Linehan, MD published the DEARMAN in 1993 as part of her DBT training manual.

D= Describe the current situation. Tell the person exactly what you are reacting to. Stick to the facts.

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Assume that others cannot read your mind. Don’t expect others to know how hard it is for you to ask directly for what you want.

A= Assert yourself by asking for what you want or saying no clearly. Assume that others cannot read your mind. Don’t expect others to know how hard it is for you to ask directly for what you want.

R= Reinforce the reward to the person ahead of time. Tell the person the positive effects of getting what you want or need. Help the person feel good ahead of time for doing what you want.

M= Mindfully keep your focus on your objectives. Maintain your position. Don’t be distracted.

A= Appear Confident. Use a confident voice tone and physical manner; make good eye contact. No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, retreating, saying “I’m not sure,” etc.

N= Negotiate by being willing to give to get. Offer and ask for alternative solutions to the problem. What am I willing to “settle for” or “give up” in order to gain what I want in the situation?

This has helped me with emotionally distancing myself a bit since I know disordered behaviors have been at play. I remind myself this behavior is in relation to disordered behavior and not to take it personally. I have to add that both of us are disordered, PTSD is a disorder so both of us (my mother and myself since I have been diagnosed with PTSD) are vulnerable to disordered reactions. Nevertheless, this part alone takes practice because it creates anxiety when I didn't know what to say, it made me fidget.

In your example:

BPDmother: When [insert name of his family] visit, how often do they come to your house? How often do you see them when they're there?

Me: Oh... .I don't know. I mean his family is different about that stuff.

BPDmother: What about [insert name of a good friend of mine that she has resentment towards]? Does she stay in a hotel or with you?

Me: Uh... .I dunno... .*frantic attempt to change conversation*

This type of questioning would make me feel like I was being interrogated.

D- Mom when you question me about my H family,

E- I feel like you are interrogating me and it makes me uncomfortable, puts me on edge, distracts from the conversation, (insert what you feel), etc... .

A- I'd like to (insert whatever you are trying do instead, have a nice conversation about positive things going on in her life, go to lunch during one of her visits, etc... .)

R- It makes me happy to know you are... .or we can... .(see each other when you're in town, have positive conversations, etc... .)

M- Sometimes silence works here for me, I wait for her response. I can't read her mind and know what she's going to say so I have to stay mindful and use active listening. I respond to what she says, not what I think she's going to say.

A- I think this works with the M to a certain degree. (i'm still working on this technique myself) This would depend on what is said next. Staying mindful of your boundary (whatever that may be), staying focused and redirecting back to the issue at hand if necessary.

N- You could reiterate your boundary on not wanting to discuss your H's family visits, that it distracts from your conversations or visits with her and those are important to you.

Of course tailoring this technique to any conversation may be helpful for future conversations. What are your thoughts?

I went NC recently as I was back in the FOG, back to my old role in my r/s with my mother so to speak. I needed to regain my bearings, back out of the FOG and have since started taking and making phone calls. I want contact and I want it to be healthier on my side, I can't control her side but I can express how it affects me when needed.

I can totally relate to the guilt of our mothers being older, that's really difficult. Which is why I want to practice my own self control on my reactions to the guilt trips, internal and external.  

Honesty is important to me as well, I want to be able to use these skills to extend my compassion and be capable of speaking my truth at the same time. It's hard work but, for me and in my situation, it's worth it. It gives me confidence to speak my truth and not be so focused on carrying her emotions totally or better said being completely dependent on her being ok to be ok myself. I can be caring without being enmeshed.

[K1313]

I've been practicing using the DEARMAN technique and it's helped.

D.E.A.R.M.A.N. - Marsha Linehan, MD published the DEARMAN in 1993 as part of her DBT training manual.

D= Describe the current situation. Tell the person exactly what you are reacting to. Stick to the facts.

E= Express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Assume that others cannot read your mind. Don’t expect others to know how hard it is for you to ask directly for what you want.

A= Assert yourself by asking for what you want or saying no clearly. Assume that others cannot read your mind. Don’t expect others to know how hard it is for you to ask directly for what you want.

R= Reinforce the reward to the person ahead of time. Tell the person the positive effects of getting what you want or need. Help the person feel good ahead of time for doing what you want.

M= Mindfully keep your focus on your objectives. Maintain your position. Don’t be distracted.

A= Appear Confident. Use a confident voice tone and physical manner; make good eye contact. No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, retreating, saying “I’m not sure,” etc.

N= Negotiate by being willing to give to get. Offer and ask for alternative solutions to the problem. What am I willing to “settle for” or “give up” in order to gain what I want in the situation?

... .

Honesty is important to me as well, I want to be able to use these skills to extend my compassion and be capable of speaking my truth at the same time. It's hard work but, for me and in my situation, it's worth it. It gives me confidence to speak my truth and not be so focused on carrying her emotions totally or better said being completely dependent on her being ok to be ok myself. I can be caring without being enmeshed.

Suzn... .Thanks for your reply. DEARMAN sounds like it might be a good fit for me - it feels more constructive for my situation than medium chill tends to be. It also reminds me of at least one or two conversations with my mother where I've unknowingly done this. There are some areas of it where I can see how I might easily slip into JADE (arguing instead of asserting or explaining instead of simply expressing feelings, etc).

Your comment about caring without being enmeshed... .oh boy. Yep. That's definitely an issue I'm having to work on. Or, more specifically, understanding that her BPD causes these behaviors but not allowing that fact to exonerate her from the responsibility for her actions.