Adventures in Therapy w/BPDm

[CL]

Hi All,

I posted here a few times awhile back about trying to run a business with my BPDm.   

I stopped posting and only lurked occasionally after I got her into therapy because reading all the stories that were so similar to my own was just too depressing.  Validating for sure, and very worthwhile don't get me wrong, it was just really hard to hear and to deal with the reality that my mom is mentally ill.  The diagnosis was brand new to me then.

So, here's what's happened so far if anybody is interested in the therapy experiences:

It's coming up on a year that she's been going to "work on our communication".  Things have been up and down and sideways and the only thing that has been consistent is the inconsistency.    In the sessions she has either been in complete denial all breezy, "hi! everything is fine!" "I don't know what HER problem is!" meaning me, of course.  Or she has been a fragile sobbing wreck  "I just have to accept that my DAUGHTER wants NOTHING to doo withh meeeee"  and on occasion the angry "I will NOT be DISRESPECTED!" pops out but not very often, not in front of the T.   She has tried to control the sessions too, for example she will say to the T "Excuse me, what is the point of this? why are we talking about this?  I really don't see the point of going over this again" 

We've made some progress, like she doesn't scream and rage at me in front of the employees as much.  It used to be weekly, now its like once every 3 months.   I guess that's something. 

The thing that brought me back to this board is the latest development.  We had a session that was going nowhere about 3 weeks ago, she was in denial mode, and the therapist said "I don't know what to do here anymore.  Nothing seems to be working, and I have tried all the things I would normally try.  Let me think about it, and see what I come up with.  CL, you and I need to have a solo session in 2 weeks" 

That solo session happened this past week and she told me that at this point she feels my mom needs to be pushed harder but that she doesn't feel that it will be well recieved coming from her.  If she starts to push harder right now, because of the way the therapy has developed, my mom will think that the T has taken my side, or will feel that the T has turned on her, and that's the end of that.  So she recommended another T that she feels will be more blunt with my mom than she feels she can be right now. 

She also told me that my mom is the most severe BPD she has ever seen.  Yikes. 

So... .yeah.  Any thoughts?   I also don't mind answering any therapy questions if anybody has any.

CL

[Kwamina]

Hi CL

We've made some progress, like she doesn't scream and rage at me in front of the employees as much.  It used to be weekly, now its like once every 3 months.   I guess that's something.  

Well yeah, that is something I guess. Do you feel like she has cut back on the screaming and raging because she truly understands and acknowledges that this is inappropriate behavior? At what moments does she still behave like this?

The thing that brought me back to this board is the latest development.  We had a session that was going nowhere about 3 weeks ago, she was in denial mode, and the therapist said "I don't know what to do here anymore.

What was she in denial about exactly? Something specific or her BPD diagnosis in general?

She also told me that my mom is the most severe BPD she has ever seen.  Yikes.  

Has your T elaborated on why she feels this ways about your mother? In what ways does she feel your mother is her most severe BPD case ever?

I am glad you have the help of a therapist to guide you through all of this. Dealing with a BPD mom isn't easy and it can really help to have a support network. That's why I'm also very glad you've come back here for some support. Take care

[Only Child]

wow, I give you respect for trying conjunct therapy w/your BPD mom.  My therapist warned me that this would be nearly impossible.  I didn't believe my T., but the things you are saying are completely everything that my T. warned me about--the bit about feeling like the T. was not on her side, and then trying to manipulate the situation and always make you look like the "bad guy".  I would suggest that the therapy be separate.  Your mom might not respond well to it (therapy has done nothing for my BPD mom), but at least you can get your own healing and composure around this very difficult dynamic of not only being the child, but a business partner.  I wish you luck and strength

[Only Child]

When you're therapist says you're mother is in "denial", I know exactly what the T. means: it means she simply cannot get any objectivity whatsoever on her dysfunctional and provocative behavior.  My T. also said my mom was a very bad BPD case.  "Worst I've ever seen" is exaggerating -- it's important that the T. understands BPD and has worked with it

[CL]

Do you feel like she has cut back on the screaming and raging because she truly understands and acknowledges that this is inappropriate behavior?

She doesn't understand it or acknowledge it at all.  She is in an abusive relationship with my dad (he is a verbally and mentally abusive bully.  And an alcoholic)  What she responded to was when the therapist pointed out that screaming at me made me feel like she feels when my dad screams at her.  That was what she responded to, but she still says all the time that I (along with anybody else who gets offened by her) am just "too sensitive".

At what moments does she still behave like this?

Under any stress at all or when she is suffering from one of her bi-weekly migraines.  The migraines have been going on for years and years.  She will not see a doctor.  That frustrates me so badly but I've kind of given up there. 

What was she in denial about exactly? Something specific or her BPD diagnosis in general?

This. This is an absolutely perfect description by Only Child.

When you're therapist says you're mother is in "denial", I know exactly what the T. means: it means she simply cannot get any objectivity whatsoever on her dysfunctional and provocative behavior.

She is unaware of her diagnosis.  For quite a few reasons the therapist says it will do more harm than good to tell her at this stage.  She still thinks the problem is everybody else.  The reason we go to sessions together is because she is not seeking help and the only way to get her to go is because she thinks we are working on our "communication problems"  that are mainly my fault, in her eyes.  This may be a hopeless situation, I know.  My T says that 1. she has to recognize that there is a problem.  2. she has to be willing to accept that she is part of the problem.  And then 3. she has to be willing to work on the problem.  She is barely, just barely, maybe, just maybe at 1. 

The T said she can maybe lead her to step 1, but will not be able to get her to step 2.

The T did tell me something that has be majorly enlightening though.  My mom has a victim mentality.  That much I knew already but she said my mom rapidly swings between 2 poles and is never in the middle.  She has no balance whatsoever.  For example:  She has to be in COMPLETE control or she is the victim.  If she can't control and boss every aspect, then you are against her and hate her and why does she even bother just go ahead and do whatever you want.  That was a real lightbulb moment for me.  It's been going on all my life but I never saw it that clearly until it was spelled out like that. 

No wonder this isn't working, huh?   

[Leaving]

Wow, I'm surprised you can work with her at all!  

I don't have much time to write at the moment but I wanted to share a bit of business experience and warn you.  Maybe it applies, hopefully it doesn't and never will but... .

My NPD/BPD mother had a business for many years.  Her partner realized something was 'off' and quit shortly after and my mother owned and operated it from that point. The business was a disaster and she accrued so much debt and had to get money from her mother all the time to pay the debt. I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars.  My mother was too emotional to run a business and way too immature.  She would barter with people, had no inventory control, every employee she had was dysfunctional as well as her codependent dysfunctional customers. She wouldn't charge people if she liked them, would buy her employees expensive things that she had no business buying ( cars, school books, medical bills, insurance) and on the flip side,  there were complaints that she hated children in her store and was rude and snotty. My mother's business plan was to attract attention and only do business with people that 'loved' her and NEEDED her.  

That all or nothing kind of thinking... .you love me or you hate me... .will make your life a living hell.  You can't operate a business with a partner who thinks like that.  Trying to manage that kind of person in a business environment will consume all your emotional and financial resources and you could end up emotionally broken and broke.  

My NPD/BPD husband and I currently own a business that has been obliterated by him for the same exact reasons.  I am in a heap of financial devastation and will probably never recover.  My accountant warned me a few years ago about staying in business with my husband and told me about another one of his customers who had the same issues with a destructive and irresponsible husband/partner.  I heard everything he said and I wanted out but I was too entrenched in the business and I had no job so,  I stayed and tried my best to fix everything and keep up with the daily struggle to communicate, struggle to get him on the same page, to follow procedures, etc... . It has worn me out but my warning to you is about the financial devastation.  The emotional stuff can be dealt with and you can heal from those wounds  but once your finances are destroyed, so is your security, independence, entire well-being and your future.  

[educator]

I commend you for going to therapy for a year and I'm sorry that it is not working out like you had hoped it would.  I have a uBPD/unpd MIL.  DH and I have been to 3 different T's now (1 together for marriage counseling and now we each have our own individual T).  All three have told us his mom is BPD/npd, though they can't diagnose her.  I think it's telling that your T feels your mom is very severe.

My MIL did therapy for 3 years (while we were NC with her).  I was hoping that it would have helped.  I saw some changes, but she has since quite therapy and is back to her old tricks.  I think people with BPD are very hard to work with unless they are open to change.  It sounds like your mom isn't really open to change.

Do you go to T alone?  My DH and I had a huge fight a few weeks ago... .literally almost got separated.  I wanted to go to marriage counseling right away, but the T I called told me she thought I needed to vent to someone without him there.  I followed her advice and it was the best decision ever.  I feel like for the first time, I'm getting the clarity I need to see how my behavior impacts our r/s (and the r/s with my MIL).  I'm realizing that I have co-dependency issues and I'm working through those.  They stem from my DH's drinking in the early part of our r/s.  I've started meditating and I'll probably start going back to Al-Anon.

See... .you can't control a thing your mom does.  You don't cause her to act the way she does, you can't cure it and you certainly can't control it.  I read something this morning that the biggest detriment to our serenity is our determination.  That was a powerful thing for me to read.  My determination to change my DH's decisions or to change my MIL's antics or the control the outcome of her crazy behavior causes ME to lose MY serenity.  See... .I actually have control over how I react to things.  I can detach and walk away.  Maybe it's time to walk away from therapy with your mom and just focus on you.  It seems like she's not going to change.

[CL]

Wow, I'm surprised you can work with her at all!  

I don't have much time to write at the moment but I wanted to share a bit of business experience and warn you.  Maybe it applies, hopefully it doesn't and never will but... .

Yeah... .it applies.  Your words have been on my mind everyday. 

When I first got here I found majorly dysfunctional employees.  That line really struck a nerve.  She also has major issues with billing, clients owed so much I don't see how they will ever catch up and when I started asking them to pay some of them were outraged.  They called her to complain about me and she got on me about how I was offending them because they were "delicate" and not used to that.  They had to be treated a "certain way".  And yet when I comp a mistake or something similar we are "not running a charity!"

My mother's business plan was to attract attention and only do business with people that 'loved' her and NEEDED her. 

My T said that she had a savior complex and had to "save" people to feel good about herself.  She needs to be needed but unfortunately for her that usually translates into an over the top attempt to control everything. 

That all or nothing kind of thinking... .you love me or you hate me... .will make your life a living hell.  You can't operate a business with a partner who thinks like that.  Trying to manage that kind of person in a business environment will consume all your emotional and financial resources and you could end up emotionally broken and broke.

Wow.  This is exactly what I am doing.  Trying to manage her so she causes the least amount of damage.

I heard everything he said and I wanted out but I was too entrenched in the business and I had no job so,  I stayed and tried my best to fix everything and keep up with the daily struggle to communicate, struggle to get him on the same page, to follow procedures, etc... .  It has worn me out but my warning to you is about the financial devastation.

I think I needed to hear this.  I gave up a lot to be here (and moved cross country) so I feel very invested in making it work.  There is a ton of potential in the business, maybe not under the circumstances though.   I really don't have a backup plan lined up, so I'm here like you were I guess, dealing with the daily struggle.  The thing is there IS progress, business has picked up, employees are much better and happier, and if I bail... .the whole thing falls apart again.  I know I can't sacrifice myself and my life for this/her/them, but I don't know how long I can or should keep on with it especially because there IS so much general improvement. 

I think it's telling that your T feels your mom is very severe.

Me too.  I think maybe what she meant by that was my mom is very much in denial.  She had explained to me before (she does a lot of work with BPDs) that she has some clients that are willing to accept a diagnosis and work the treatment, DBT or what have you, and actively work towards a more functional and peaceful life.  But she has some that are resistant to any diagnosis or unwilling to accept that they are causing their own problems, it's like a sliding scale of acceptance and progress.  She told me my mom is the on the extreme end of the unaccepting scale.  My mom is very intelligent, very detrimental to all of her realtionships, and she has been this way her whole life. It's normal to her, I guess.  That makes for a very difficult case... .hence the therapist hand-off, huh?  Haha.

Oh, and FWIW she also said my mom is PTS, too. 

Do you go to T alone?

I started by going alone when I realized I was dealing with something way over my head and recognized that it was starting to take a toll on me. I knew it wasn't me and that I wasn't causing it but I had no idea what the deal was.  The last straw that finally drove me to T was when she screamed at me in the parking lot for HALF AN HOUR because I moved a box.  Seriously.  I had moved it from a table top to a shelf that was only two feet away.   I was just standing there like... .whhaaa?  This is lunatic behavior I need a professional.  I had never heard of BPD until I started therapy. 

Also, I have not called the new recommended therapist yet.  I'm stalling. 

[Leaving]

Wow, I'm surprised you can work with her at all!  

I don't have much time to write at the moment but I wanted to share a bit of business experience and warn you.  Maybe it applies, hopefully it doesn't and never will but... .

Yeah... .it applies.  Your words have been on my mind everyday. 

When I first got here I found majorly dysfunctional employees.  That line really struck a nerve.  She also has major issues with billing, clients owed so much I don't see how they will ever catch up and when I started asking them to pay some of them were outraged.  They called her to complain about me and she got on me about how I was offending them because they were "delicate" and not used to that.  They had to be treated a "certain way".  And yet when I comp a mistake or something similar we are "not running a charity!"

My mother's business plan was to attract attention and only do business with people that 'loved' her and NEEDED her. 

My T said that she had a savior complex and had to "save" people to feel good about herself.  She needs to be needed but unfortunately for her that usually translates into an over the top attempt to control everything. 

That all or nothing kind of thinking... .you love me or you hate me... .will make your life a living hell.  You can't operate a business with a partner who thinks like that.  Trying to manage that kind of person in a business environment will consume all your emotional and financial resources and you could end up emotionally broken and broke.

Wow.  This is exactly what I am doing.  Trying to manage her so she causes the least amount of damage.

I heard everything he said and I wanted out but I was too entrenched in the business and I had no job so,  I stayed and tried my best to fix everything and keep up with the daily struggle to communicate, struggle to get him on the same page, to follow procedures, etc... .  It has worn me out but my warning to you is about the financial devastation.

I think I needed to hear this.  I gave up a lot to be here (and moved cross country) so I feel very invested in making it work.  There is a ton of potential in the business, maybe not under the circumstances though.   I really don't have a backup plan lined up, so I'm here like you were I guess, dealing with the daily struggle.  The thing is there IS progress, business has picked up, employees are much better and happier, and if I bail... .the whole thing falls apart again.  I know I can't sacrifice myself and my life for this/her/them, but I don't know how long I can or should keep on with it especially because there IS so much general improvement. 

I think it's telling that your T feels your mom is very severe.

Me too.  I think maybe what she meant by that was my mom is very much in denial.  She had explained to me before (she does a lot of work with BPDs) that she has some clients that are willing to accept a diagnosis and work the treatment, DBT or what have you, and actively work towards a more functional and peaceful life.  But she has some that are resistant to any diagnosis or unwilling to accept that they are causing their own problems, it's like a sliding scale of acceptance and progress.  She told me my mom is the on the extreme end of the unaccepting scale.  My mom is very intelligent, very detrimental to all of her realtionships, and she has been this way her whole life. It's normal to her, I guess.  That makes for a very difficult case... .hence the therapist hand-off, huh?  Haha.

Oh, and FWIW she also said my mom is PTS, too. 

Do you go to T alone?

I started by going alone when I realized I was dealing with something way over my head and recognized that it was starting to take a toll on me. I knew it wasn't me and that I wasn't causing it but I had no idea what the deal was.  The last straw that finally drove me to T was when she screamed at me in the parking lot for HALF AN HOUR because I moved a box.  Seriously.  I had moved it from a table top to a shelf that was only two feet away.   I was just standing there like... .whhaaa?  This is lunatic behavior I need a professional.  I had never heard of BPD until I started therapy. 

Also, I have not called the new recommended therapist yet.  I'm stalling. 

Oh gosh, I really don't know if I'm being too harsh and presumptuous when I say that you need to quit deluding yourself into believing that things are getting better.  I believe you when you say that things are improving because they would here too but you need to literally keep a calendar with notes about improvements, when they occur, setbacks, etc... .so that you have a real time visual record of how things really are progressing as well as the drama stuff.  The longer you keep managing the upsets, the more tolerant you will become and the more invested you will become. You're already afraid to leave and the business fail.  Listen to  your words closely because what I'm hearing is that YOU are the business. Your mother is just your child.  Can you find daycare for her?  Sorry!  that was a joke.   Is there any way for you to get your mother out of it?  Can you buy her out?  Just think about it and plan on it even if it never happens.  Start saving.

Just be smart and very wise.   

[Kwamina]

Hi again CL

The T did tell me something that has be majorly enlightening though.  My mom has a victim mentality.  That much I knew already but she said my mom rapidly swings between 2 poles and is never in the middle.  She has no balance whatsoever.  For example:  She has to be in COMPLETE control or she is the victim.  If she can't control and boss every aspect, then you are against her and hate her and why does she even bother just go ahead and do whatever you want.  That was a real lightbulb moment for me.  It's been going on all my life but I never saw it that clearly until it was spelled out like that.  

I find this interesting. Perhaps you'll find an article we have here insightful about the so-called Karpman triangle, also known as the drama or victim triangle. Here's a short excerpt:

Whether we know it, or not, most of us react to life as victims. Whenever we refuse to take responsibility for ourselves, we are unconsciously choosing to react as victim. This inevitably creates feelings of anger, fear, guilt or inadequacy and leaves us feeling betrayed, or taken advantage of by others.

If you're interested in reading more, you can find the entire article here: The Three Faces of Victim

She had explained to me before (she does a lot of work with BPDs) that she has some clients that are willing to accept a diagnosis and work the treatment, DBT or what have you, and actively work towards a more functional and peaceful life.  But she has some that are resistant to any diagnosis or unwilling to accept that they are causing their own problems, it's like a sliding scale of acceptance and progress.  She told me my mom is the on the extreme end of the unaccepting scale.

It's very unfortunate that your mother seems unwilling or unable to acknowledge her role in what's going on. There are indeed people with BPD who've learned to better manage their difficult thoughts and emotions and by doing so have improved their behavior. However, for this to happen it's crucial that the person acknowledges that there is something wrong with her/his behavior and fully commits on working on the issues. This unfortunately doesn't seem to be the case with your mother and this indeed really does complicate things.

I gave up a lot to be here (and moved cross country) so I feel very invested in making it work.  There is a ton of potential in the business, maybe not under the circumstances though.   I really don't have a backup plan lined up, so I'm here like you were I guess, dealing with the daily struggle.  The thing is there IS progress, business has picked up, employees are much better and happier, and if I bail... .the whole thing falls apart again.  I know I can't sacrifice myself and my life for this/her/them, but I don't know how long I can or should keep on with it especially because there IS so much general improvement.

No matter what you decide to do, a question that might help you is are you really staying there because you want to for you or is it more because of your mother? And if you really do want to stay for you, do you feel like it's possible to do so in a way that doesn't take such a toll on your own well-being?

Also, I have not called the new recommended therapist yet.  I'm stalling.

Why do you think you are 'stalling' as you put it and haven't called the new therapist yet? Do you perhaps feel like making this call would make it more real that your mother is a severe case? Or are you perhaps concerned about how your mother would react to a new therapist? An idea might be to make a first call just to get some more information and make inquiries which might help you in your decision process.

[bethanny]

I remember when my depression became so frequent I went to my first therapist. I was living with my parents after college.  I had no money. My mother was helping me pay for it. When I came back from my first session my mother was at the front door and demanded in a snarl "What did he say about me?"  There was no interest in if the session had made me feel better since I was such a psychological mess who was having trouble functioning.  My mother was so clearly enraged.

Actually I was so Stockholm Syndromed by her that if I had brought her up to the T I presented her as a victim of my Dad's alcoholism and I wasn't close to ending my denial of how she terrified me.  

But that moment at the door was another terrifying moment of irrational malice ambushing me. Like another personality from her mother role.  And my good girl self went into freeze mode with her. Fight, flight or freeze, I could not flee her since I lived there but I did freeze each time. I also knew communication was futile and would encourage more vilification.

After years of 12 step meetings and having "tough love" recommended I rallied it up a decade later and faced my mother who was outraged I said no to an implied order.  She refused to listen to any explanation of why it served my needs not to service hers at that point and it brought a new decade long estrangement in which she played my victim to our mutual social and family network and was very convincing i had gone crazy mean. I assumed after her tantrum there would be a reconciliation.  But I had been wrong.

I think I discovered then -- or rather as more and more time passed -- that tough love doesn't work on the "paranoia" of the uBPD.  There was letter contact over the decade. My mother responded to brief and non-exploratory letters but when I tried to assert or explain or be honest she would shoot back a scaldingly angry letter and I felt so horrified and frustrated and more time would pass. She wanted total and unconditional surrender.  For me never to disappoint or inconvenience her and her will ever again.

I thought the threat of loss of our relationship itself would be leverage to get her to explore our relationship and do conflict resolution and put it on an adult to adult level, but there was no budging on her part.  It horrified me.  

I thought all my years of sacrifice and accessibility had been appreciated but it was like it NEVER happened in her eyes.  And to continue with her even more obedience would be required.  All or nothing terms that was eroding my spirit and my identity more and more.  

She was willing to put everything on the table to gamble to get me to bend to her will.  Even my relationships with the rest of the family.  She was ruthless in rallying sympathy and assassinating my character.  She was willing to use everything and anything to try to control me.  

I understood then why I had been so terrified of her all those years.  I had disrespected myself for being so timid with my mother.  But my intuitive wariness not to cross her -- I rationalized my terror as my pitying and wanting to just help poor her made nasty at times from stress from my father's alcoholism -- had been right on.  

And she became so easily and completely paranoid over ANY inconvenience to her anticipated plans.  

When they talk about infants needing "object constancy" that is what the uBPD also needs.  When that is messed with the horrifying level of distress and rage comes out and a conviction that the one disappointing her is a TOTAL ENEMY and there seems no memory of any bond that ever existed.  As if evil you had simply been tricking her all those years.

Unconditional love and acceptance ... .she was not capable of that.  And it hurts to recognize that.  She appreciated affinity if I played my obedient role. When I didn't I was pushed out of the plane with no parachute it felt.