How to stay loving...

[Ceruleanblue]

The thing that keeps running through my mind today is: How do you keep loving your spouse when they are often really, really unlovable? This is really troubling me.

I did pretty good at it for four years, but since he kicked my son out, and put me in a position to "choose", I'm finding it so hard to not let resentment creep in. This is the only time I just don't seem able to write it off as his disorder. I feel this was thought out, and deliberate.

Plus, I feel I'm constantly being "tested" by him to see just how much I'll take. I know that is the dynamics of BPD, and other PD disorders probably, but the constant "push/pull" is ridiculous. I have trouble understanding how such a professional man can be seemingly high functioning at work(with slips), then be the complete opposite at home. I want when he gives everyone else! Benefit of the doubt, kindness, interest, attention, and respect.

I'm doing better setting boundaries, but now he just thinks that means I'll "compromise"(and before he was diagnosed, I was such a proponent of compromise). He used to never compromise, ever, it always had to be ME giving him exactly what he wanted, and NOW he wants to "compromise", which is really just his way around my boundary.

How do you stay in love and loving in the face of all they throw at us? Plus, it's hard not picking up on some of their behaviors, and I have to constantly be on guard against not being passive aggressive and such(I actually did it a few times just so he'd see what it felt like... .as an object lesson, but he seems incapable of making that connection, even when it's pointed out). How do you constantly be under fire, and still maintain the love?

This is killing me today. Ugh!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[takingandsending]

Hello Cerulean,

That's a really good question, and you already know part of the answer.

I'm finding it so hard to not let resentment creep in. This is the only time I just don't seem able to write it off as his disorder. I feel this was thought out, and deliberate.

I am really sorry about this situation with your son. I know that I have my lowest moments of respect and love for my wife when she competes with my two young sons for getting her way. It triggers all kinds of things in me.

So, resentment is one of my litmus tests of how I am doing. If I am resenting my wife, it tells me that I am not taking care of myself and am expecting her to, which isn't going to happen with BPD. One of the unfortunate things that we can do in these RS's is to shut ourselves down, close off to love (including self-love) and allow resentment to grow. Can you see any ways that you can better maintain your boundaries when you see them as self-love? Do you really agree with compromising on loving yourself? - might be another way of asking this question. In the end, I think that you have to address this hurt with your husband. Do you feel as if you betrayed what you believed in to accommodate him?

Again, I am so sorry for this rough day you are having. It does help to look at your external environment and see/recall the things that open your heart, heal your hurts. Is there anything that you can do for yourself today to take a time out from the situation and just sit with something beautiful? Wishing you a happier turn to the day. 

[Ceruleanblue]

TakingandSending: I think I have been doing a pretty good job of taking care of me, and goodness knows, I really don't expect him to meet my needs. I just know that that is not going to happen. The ONLY way he still manages to disappoint me is when he does something outside his norm. He disappointed me this week by not doing his "norm" on Mother's Day, but he's since tried to make it up to me.

The one thing being involved with BPDh, and someone worse before him has taught me is to live in the NOW, and enjoy something each day, and to look out for me and my needs, because I need to be my own best friend(because he simply can't or won't).

I have talked to BPDh about how hurt I was about being put in an impossible position. I thought because so much of his identity is tied up with being a Dad, and his biggest fear is losing his kids, that he'd never, ever put me in that position. I should have known better, because BPD is nothing if not unfair, and has huge double standards. Trying to talk to BPDh about it just makes him upset, so maybe next week I'll try to address is in marriage therapy. Our therapists view is that our marriage comes first, which is what I've been telling BPDh all along, but that was prior to him makes ME choose.  I never put him in a position to choose, even when his kids disrespected me to my fact and he didn't stand up for me.

I want to keep loving him, but this has been a major obstacle, because my son is precious to me. I think there might be a jealously factor I never questioned before? And BPDh has a weird thing with young girls, his and mine. Not like he's a pedophile, but he's weird with his own, and my daughter, and everyone has noticed, his family and mine.

[vortex of confusion]

I want to keep loving him, but this has been a major obstacle, because my son is precious to me. I think there might be a jealously factor I never questioned before? And BPDh has a weird thing with young girls, his and mine. Not like he's a pedophile, but he's weird with his own, and my daughter, and everyone has noticed, his family and mine.

Would it help you to give yourself permission to NOT love him?

That isn't a rhetorical question either. I spent a lot of time fretting over the fact that I don't have those warm fuzzy, loving feelings towards my husband. He has done some pretty crappy things to me. I felt like a really bad person because I felt so guilty for having such negative feelings about this person that I am supposed to love. I had read so many people share stuff about their spouses and include something like, "Oh, I know it is bad but I just love him so much." I didn't have those "I love him so much feelings." I was having, "I hate him so much and I can't believe he put me in a position to have to make that kind of decision." It was cathartic to allow myself to think and feel those ugly feelings without trying to tell myself why I should feel loving towards him. My husband did a horrible thing. Your husband did a horrible thing. Don't try to diminish it.

So, I let myself feel all of that stuff. I still don't know if I have those loving feelings towards my husband. But, what I do know is that I have made a choice to stay with him. I try to make sure that my actions are loving and caring and that I am not doing anything to destroy or sabatoge the relationship. Will those loving feelings ever return? I have no clue. I don't really care at this point. I am choosing to stay for the kids.

What are your reasons for choosing to stay? If you revisit that question, maybe you can find an answer somewhere in there.

[Ceruleanblue]

VOC:

I think I'll try your suggestion. I definitely do let myself feel upset over the position he put me in, but I try not to let in consume me either. I try to hate the behavior and not the man, but it's hard sometimes.

I do love him, but it's more of a conscious choice, way separate from when I "fell in love with him"(you know, the fake him he presented prior to marrying him). For a while, I was bitter and feeling duped, which technically, I was, but I eventually let that go after reading so many similar stories. I mean, they do it for self preservation, most likely. I mean, how many people would choose to marry someone that acted full on BPD? Some do, but I wouldn't have had I had prior knowledge of how he can be.

We don't have kids together, and in fact, his grown kids have caused immense trouble in our marriage, and mine have not, yet one of mine was the targeted one. It's so unfair. I think you are right, that I just need to stop feeling guilty for feeling bad.

I do treat him the way I'd love to be treated, and I'm careful to not let my hurt from his making me choose ruin the momentum we have going currently. I choose to stay because I do think we have a lot going for us, and I don't want to start over. Plus, I don't think there are as many people as determined, who have such a high threshold for enduring, and I fear he'd just end up old and alone, or going from one relationship to the next. I think with the right support, he is working on this.

I think my radical acceptance is part of what actually made him seek out help. He knew I'd love and accept him as is, but for his own sake, I wanted him to get help, and he started to want it too. He's doing way better than I ever thought he could do.

[Loosestrife]

Perhaps it's okay to love him but not like him at times. I gave a difficult mother and that's how I sometimes describe my relationship with her.

[Notwendy]

I think I have redefined my idea about "love". Growing up in a dysfunctional family, I wonder if that feeling of "love" that I recognized was not really an emotionally healthy kind of love, but some sort of codependency.

Yet, I loved- in the only way I knew love- my H heart and soul when I married him and hung in there while being painted black for years, until one day I found myself with depression. He was fine, could have cared less.

I have no idea why, at one point, my H came around and wanted me back to the loving marriage we had. I fell for it, then, when he raged again, I became quite confused. By then, in therapy over parents/marriage, I decided that love, or what I think love is, doesn't hurt and I did not have to love anyone who was abusive to me.

I think things are better because I don't love in that self effacing self sacrificing love that I had for him, but I would have kept on loving him like that if he had not fallen out of love with me, which he did. It confused me why he didn't leave me then. I think to truly come to a point of "love" I will have to get over that, and I am not sure that is entirely possible. However, I can feel a multitude of things such as gratitude for his dedication to us, his work ethic, being a good father, and a good husband in the best way he can. I have found that he needs way more emotional space than I do- that trying to get close to him emotionally didn't work well. Given his space, he is more comfortable, and we do better. I can honor our marriage. Love to me is acting according to my own ethical standards- to treat others with respect and dignity,love unconditionally,  but this now included myself.  Maybe the key was not loving too much ( to my own self destruction) but loving less, and letting us both be who we are.

And to Ceruleanblue- I think you are struggling with the choice your H put you in- your child or him. I know that your T is saying that the marriage comes first. I think that is the idea, and it is everything that I read about. I don't think it is healthy for kids to feel as if they run the show and their parents are fractured. Where choosing the child over the marriage becomes unhealthy is when one parent bonds with the child in a fractured marriage in a triangulation/emotional incest situation.

The marriage comes first, but in a healthy marriage both parents are invested in the kids' welfare as well as each other's well being. I have a hard time imagining that a loving parent would make the other parent choose between them and their child, because it would not be in the interest of his/her own child or spouse to do so. What you have here is a step parent who doesn't have the same investment in your child's welfare as you do. You were placed in a difficult situation and I don't know if there is an ideal solution to that. One one hand it isn't good for your son to live in a home where he isn't wanted by one parent, and on the other hand, I know you are missing him.

I pay close attention to when I am feeling resentment as it is a key to when I am being co-dependent and when I am giving in a way that makes me feel sad. If you are feeling resentment, it isn't something you need to ignore.

[formflier]

 

Boy... .this post has a lot to work through.

Biggest part... .is... .what is love?  Sure it's a feeling... .but it's also a choice.

Many of us have FOO issues... .and our "love feelings"... .might not be what most of the world says they should be.  That doesn't mean the feelings are invalid... .but if we ignore this part of it... .chances of personal growth... .chances of lessening conflict in our r/s go way down.

Love is also a choice.  It's a choice to stay... .it's a choice to forgive... .it's a choice to act in a loving way (to the best of our ability)... .when we don't feel like acting in a loving way.

Then... .there is a question of "tough love"... .that concept seems to be for those of us that could be enablers.  Sometimes the most loving thing is to not help.

I also think loving ourselves is part of this... .forgiving ourselves is as well.

Many times we have made decisions or done things that we think we "had to do... ." and as we emerge from the FOG of BPD land... .we realize we really had choices and wish we had made different ones.

The past can't be changed... .the pain we feel from past bad choices can either hold us down... .enslave us to the past.  Or... .they can give us strength to make better choices in the future.

I hope this isn't too much of a ramble... .big topic... .lots her to unpack. 

Thanks for starting this topic!

FF

[takingandsending]

We don't have kids together, and in fact, his grown kids have caused immense trouble in our marriage, and mine have not, yet one of mine was the targeted one. It's so unfair. I think you are right, that I just need to stop feeling guilty for feeling bad.

Hi Ceruleanblue. Did your husband cross a boundary here? Just as an outsider looking in, it appears that some part of you, some very central part of you, was transgressed, was minimized and was not protected. That type of hurt does not go away or get better until we do something about it (acknowledge, accept that this is here, and act to improve or remedy if we can). Radical acceptance does not mean accepting the reduction or minimization of our selves by our partners. What would make the pain that you feel change? Is it understanding? Is it having more time with your son? Whatever it is, I hope that you do it.

It takes a lot of strength and courage to be in these relationships - strength to stay open to the possibilities of the positive aspects of our partners, courage to be our selves within the onslaught of a partner that fears that we have a self in the first place.

[Stalwart]

Hey Ceruleanblue: I feel for the questioning that you have and it's so evident that most of us have lived and some still do live questioning this issue of being able to love, remain in love, reconstitute that feeling or simply cope with a realization that perhaps to stay redefining what love is to them in their relationships. It really is such a difficult questions and problems from the past and living with them in our minds and hearts only complicate this more.

Is "my sons" that was 'kicked out' also his son? I have found protecting my older children from a past marriage and myself to be one of the most difficult and impeding problems of our past. It is just cruel to be put in the middle of and so personally damaging. I don't know what fuelled the problem in your situation,  but I so hope you've kept in touch with your son.

To me, particularly in my past experiences and even to some degree today (now that things are not as dysregulated), I've always found that having a really well-developed sense of empathy is everything to understanding and confirming the reasons why I stay in love. Not to be confused with pity. I refer to the following list in moments when I'm bewildered.

If there is one thing on a level of personal growth I can positively attribute to being a spouse of someone with this disorder it would definitely be truly learning EMPATHY and in every situation I face with people today I'm grateful for having taken the untold hours to truly consider what other's lives are, so that I can relate to them on a better standing. I’ve come to personal understanding that EMPATHY is one of the most difficult attributes to learn and most important attributes a person can master.

Although I know this isn’t going to lessen the problems of your past it might just help you in those darker moments of questioning your own motives and reasoning’s in the future. The only one thing I can say for certain personally is in my moments of questioning it grounds me to the reality of the challenges I’ve chosen to face and improve.

1.   Adults shamed as children are afraid of vulnerability and fear of exposure of the self.

2. Adults shamed as children may suffer extreme shyness, embarrassment and feelings of being inferior to others. They don't believe they make mistakes. Instead they believe they are mistakes.

3. Adults shamed as children fear intimacy and tend to avoid real commitment in relationships. These adults frequently express the feeling that one foot is out of the door prepared to run.

4. Adults shamed as children may appear either grandiose and self-centered or seem selfless.

5. Adults shamed as children feel that, "No matter what I do, it won't make a difference; I am and always will be worthless and unlovable."

6. Adults shamed as children frequently feel defensive when even a minor negative feedback is given. They suffer feelings of severe humiliation if forced to look at mistakes or imperfections.

7. Adults shamed as children frequently blame others before they can be blamed.

8. Adults shamed as children may suffer from debilitating guilt These individuals apologize constantly. They assume responsibility for the behavior of those around them.

9. Adults shamed as children feel like outsiders. They feel a pervasive sense of loneliness throughout their lives, even when surrounded with those who love and care.

10. Adults shamed as children project their beliefs about themselves onto others. They engage in mind-reading that is not in their favor, consistently feeling judged by others.

11. Adults shamed as children often feel ugly, flawed and imperfect. These feelings regarding self may lead to focus on clothing and make-up in an attempt to hide flaws in personal appearance and self.

12. Adults shamed as children often feel angry and judgmental towards the qualities in others that they feel ashamed of in themselves. This can lead to shaming others.

13. Adults shamed as children often feel controlled from the outside as well as from within. Normal spontaneous expression is blocked.

14. Adults shamed as children feel they must do things perfectly or not at all. This internalized belief frequently leads to performance anxiety and procrastination.

15. Adults shamed as children experience depression.

16. Adults shamed as children block their feelings of shame through compulsive behaviors like workaholis, eating disorders, shopping, substance abuse, list-making or gambling.

17. Adults shamed as children lie to themselves and others.

18. Adults shamed as children often have caseloads rather than friendships.

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.

20. Adults shamed as children have little sense of emotional boundaries. They feel constantly violated by others. They frequently build false boundaries through walls, rage, pleasing or isolation.

21. Adults shamed as children are stuck in dependency or counter-dependency.

Just food for thought Ceruleanblue and hope this finds you in a better place than when you posted.

[Notwendy]

Great post- a lot of this could be my H who I think was brutally shamed as a child. Very sad. I was shamed too to some extent so I can have empathy. I think it helps when we understand how much pain they feel from this

Thanks again for a great post.

[Stalwart]

Hey Notwendy thanks. I truly believe that the most important thing any of our spouses can hope from any of us who support them is understanding. They've been misunderstood all their lives by others and felt that, as well as paid the high prices all their lives for it.

If it isn't about the love, than why do we stay?

[vortex of confusion]

Very sad. I was shamed too to some extent so I can have empathy. I think it helps when we understand how much pain they feel from this

What about the alternative? What about acknowledging our own pain?

Yes, our partners feel pain and shame and all sorts of overwhelming feelings. What about the pain that I, as a partner feel, when my spouse does things that are painful and hurtful? I find that I am better able to keep my actions loving when I can acknowledge my own pain without getting so caught up in what it is that my partner is or isn't feeling. I think focusing on his pain keeps me in a place where I feel stuck. Focusing on his pain feels like an attempt to intellectualize my pain so that I don't have to feel it.

Number 19 on the list that Stalwart posted stuck out:

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.

It stuck out because isn't that what a lot of us do in order to stay in a relationship that continues to cause us pain. What would happen if I stopped intellectualizing the pain and started feeling it? What would happen if I let myself think and feel things like, "My husband's behavior is unacceptable. Putting me in the position to make that kind of decision hurt me to the core."

[Notwendy]

People who are hurting can hurt others. I don't think people in as much pain as some pw BPD are can help anyone else really. Vortex, you asked about us- me? I knew at a very young age that I could not expect the kind of love or support that a child needs from a parent. I was parentified as soon as I was old enough to help out and I distinctly recall the time I realized that I was mentally more mature than my mother.

If my H is triggered and feels shame, all he can do at the moment is lash out. If I trigger him at that moment I become a threatening menace ( ironically though since I am much smaller than he is) but he sees me as some kind of monster of a person out to get him. I know who that person is, and I become, in his mind, his critical menacing father. That father could not give love because he too was raised by a woman who was cold to him. ( at least I thought she was by the time I met her)

We can't heal our spouses' wounds, even with all the love in the world. I know that because even though my H had a warm loving wife in his arms, the voice he heard when I spoke was the one in his head. I can't get that voice out of him.

However, I can ask others to help me- my therapist and my sponsor. I didn't want to pass on the cycle of criticism and abuse that my mother endured, and I knew it was up to me to do this.

I feel like a 12 step evangelist here, but one of the roles of a sponsor is unconditional love- some of it tough love. You tell them all this stuff about you, and they help you. Pretty amazing, but the main goal is self love and undoing the shame, or at least recognizing it. I know when I am shame triggered, and I literally feel like a small child and I want to hide somewhere. But now I can see it for what it is and not feel like it is because of someone else, and I also don't have to believe it.

[vortex of confusion]

People who are hurting can hurt others. I don't think people in as much pain as some pw BPD are can help anyone else really. Vortex, you asked about us- me? I knew at a very young age that I could not expect the kind of love or support that a child needs from a parent. I was parentified as soon as I was old enough to help out and I distinctly recall the time I realized that I was mentally more mature than my mother.

I am not talking about asking our partners to help us. I am not looking to my partner for anything because I know that would be futile. I have memories of my grandmother telling me that I had to be the adult when it came to interacting with my mother as a kid.

What I am talking about is giving myself the space to feel whatever it is that I am feeling without dismissing it so that I can be somebody else's caretaker. I am way more loving towards everyone when I get to feel my feelings without dismissing them by saying things like, "Oh, but my husband's feelings are so much worse than mine." or "I have to be the adult because I am more mentally mature." I am way more loving when I am not all caught up in what other people are thinking or feeling or doing.

I am able to separate how I feel about somebody from my actions. I can feel angry at my husband and feel hurt to the core without being a jerk to my husband. I can maintain the loving actions without getting caught up in how he is feeling. But, I can only do that when other people aren't telling me stuff like, "But what about how your husband feels?" or "What about how your mother feels?" If they are entitled to their feelings, I am entitled to mine. Just because I am upset with somebody doesn't mean that I am going to treat them poorly. It is all about separating fact from feeling. The fact is that I am married to my husband and have 4 kids with him. I choose to continue to be married to him. The fact is that I am going to find ways to act in loving ways. The feeling is that I am angry as heck with him for some of the things that he has done. The feeling is that there are times when he disgusts me. Those feelings don't override the facts of the situation.

[Notwendy]

In my experience, Vortex, I had to take the space to feel. Nobody in my world would give it to me.

It's not easy when there are children at home. I am a mom too. It seemed that I took the time when they were in school to get things done. It is very hard to make the time for just me. But I had to learn to do it.

It's hard to feel your own feelings when in the middle of a house of demanding people. I felt guilty taking time for me when so many others were needing it or demanding it. But I have to try to do it and I hope you can find some time for you too, to just sit and think.

Also, I don't read the empathy and love part as putting someone else's feelings before mine. That empathy and love is for us- first. Then we can give some.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Is there a difference in getting to have your own feelings... .and deciding what to do with those feelings?  Action that you take because you feel a certain way... .

Is that where you are going with this? 

FF

[vortex of confusion]

VOC,

Is there a difference in getting to have your own feelings... .and deciding what to do with those feelings?  Action that you take because you feel a certain way... .

Is that where you are going with this? 

I get to have my feelings.

I get to decide what to do about my feelings.

I get to choose how to act. I can choose to act in loving ways even if I don't have loving feelings.

I have the power to make decisions in my life. I don't necessarily buy into the notion that I have to accept that I am powerless. The more powerless somebody tells me that I am, the worse I feel. In my opinion, emphasizing a person's lack of power over his/her own actions contributes to learned helplessness. I may not be able to choose my feelings but I sure as heck get to choose how I respond to those feelings.

[Notwendy]

VOC, you mentioned in another post that you were starting the 12 steps, and I'm not here to convince you or anyone else of them. Some people really dislike them. Others find that they worked for them.

There is a distinction between helpless and powerless. We are not helpless, nor powerless over a lot of things. We can own our own feelings and choose our actions.

By considering powerlessness, the 12 steps aims to break the denial of the addict who is self deceiving and believes that he or she is in control of the addiction " I can quit any time". Until the addict hits bottom or feels enough pain from the addiction/consequences, he or she will take the payoff of the addiction. For the enabler (co-dependent) it is harder to see the problem, but the reality is, that both think they are in control of their lives when in actuality, they are anything but in control and dealing with the chaos of their situation. We are powerless over the choices and feelings of others, but we are not helpless and can make choices about how we respond.

I was mad as a hornet when our T suggested that I was the one who needed to change. What about him? Well, in general, one partner is the projector, the other feels things. This is simplistic, but I was the one with the emotional pain. My H was not feeling his uncomfortable feelings since he was projecting them at me. The one who hurts the most emotionally is the one who is most motivated to change. That would be the enabler if the addict has not hit emotional bottom when the enabler has.One thing enablers do is keep their partner from getting the motivation to change by enabling them.

I'd been married for a long time and tried everything. I felt powerless because I had tried everything I knew to make changes in my marriage and none of them were working. I was willing to try something different. This didn't mean I was helpless as I took action to do what my T suggested, and I made choices.  But just accepting the steps as truth without applying them to your own situation, studying them and working at it, they are just ideas, like anything else.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC, you mentioned in another post that you were starting the 12 steps, and I'm not here to convince you or anyone else of them. Some people really dislike them. Others find that they worked for them.

The 12 step program does not work for me. I quit.

There is a distinction between helpless and powerless. We are not helpless, nor powerless over a lot of things. We can own our own feelings and choose our actions.

I am not here to argue. Ceruleanblue asked how to stay loving. I have been sharing what has worked for me. I have no desire to argue about powerless or helpless.

Have you read about battered women's syndrome? Or learned helplessness? Or other symptoms associated with experiencing a major trauma?

I stay loving by refusing to give up my personal power. I stay loving by focusing on MY feelings and MY actions. I stay loving by reminding myself that being in a relationship with my husband is MY choice. I feel like putting too much emphasis on how my husband is feeling is pretty much feeding the machine of codepency and enabling. What reason does a spouse have to change if I am constantly thinking about him and his feelings? If people are telling me, "What about him? What about how horrible he must have it?" aren't they pretty much feeding the enabling/copedependency/rescuing/whatever?

By considering powerlessness, the 12 steps aims to break the denial of the addict who is self deceiving and believes that he or she is in control of the addiction " I can quit any time". Until the addict hits bottom or feels enough pain from the addiction/consequences, he or she will take the payoff of the addiction. For the enabler (co-dependent) it is harder to see the problem, but the reality is, that both think they are in control of their lives when in actuality, they are anything but in control and dealing with the chaos of their situation. We are powerless over the choices and feelings of others, but we are not helpless and can make choices about how we respond.

This is what I am hearing: Anybody that refuses to admit that he/she is an enabler/codependent is in denial and continues to have problems because they think they have some kind of control.

One thing enablers do is keep their partner from getting the motivation to change by enabling them.

I don't fit that model. I have tried all sorts of thing to motivate my husband to change. I have tried to set boundaries. The only thing that I didn't do was divorce him. But, I suppose that even that behavior can be turned around and seen as enabling. Is there anything that a spouse can do that isn't considered enabling?

[Notwendy]

I'm not arguing with you either VOC. We're all here adding suggestions about "loving". Your point of view stands as valid as anyone else's.

I don't think the suggestion of empathy means focusing on the partner's feelings more than our own. I think the first step to being loving is to be loving and empathetic to ourselves. Then, hopefully we can also be that for others.

I agree with you that it is important to be focused on our own feelings.

How is a spouse not an enabler? I don't know. I just know that I was and had to change some of the things I was doing, but I was also doing a lot of things that I didn't have to change. I think it is an individual thing. I needed help to sort out my part.

[formflier]

  Is there anything that a spouse can do that isn't considered enabling?

I think there are lots of things... .in fact most things... .

My general perception is that "enabling" is tossed around way to liberally.

If I know my partner is an alcoholic... .and I got buy alcohol for them... .that is enabling.

If I know my partner is an alcoholic and they buy alcohol and I fail to confront them... .stop them... .IMO... .that is NOT enabling.

I don't think someone else's bad behavior requires us to do certain things to avoid a enabling label.

Now... .do I think it would be good to confront them... .sure... .

To me... .enabling means actively helping them.

OK... .I may be off on a bit of a tangent here... .just wanted to put my two cents in.

An... .VOC... .I'm not remembering anything in your posts that would remotely lead me to think that you are enabling your hubby's bad behavior.

My remembrance is that he seems to be taking some steps in the right direction... .and you are being loving and generous with time and space to let him work on this... .vice constantly nagging... .pestering... .poking with cattle prod... .

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

VOC:

I wasn't sure if your question in regards to battered women's syndrome, an learned helplessness was directed at me, or someone else. I certainly don't feel like a battered woman, or like I've learned helplessness from all this. Some days I might feel anxiety, or almost like I could have a slight case of PTSD(mostly joking), but all in all, I actually feel like dealing with all this has made ME much stronger.

I've had to become stronger, and learn a lot of things I didn't have to know in my FOO. I simply didn't grow up with vast degrees of dysfunction, so I had lots of researching and reading to do. Plus, lots of trial and error to see what works and what doesn't.

For now, I choose to love him as a conscious choice and decision, but for the first time I'm really struggling since this thing with my son. I was made to "choose", something I never mad him do. I understand living with step kids can be challenging, and my son isn't perfect, but he targeted one of my kids out. My son is 16, and kids that age aren't perfect. He gets good grades though, picks good friends and has never given me any trouble. I'm just so sad, and this has made me question if years down the road I'll resent BPDh really badly for this.

I am trying so hard to stay loving. I definitely am not going to give up personal power to him. I care about MY feelings, even if he doesn't. I have to take special care of ME and MY feelings, just because he doesn't.

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure if your question in regards to battered women's syndrome, an learned helplessness was directed at me, or someone else. I certainly don't feel like a battered woman, or like I've learned helplessness from all this. Some days I might feel anxiety, or almost like I could have a slight case of PTSD(mostly joking), but all in all, I actually feel like dealing with all this has made ME much stronger.

I've had to become stronger, and learn a lot of things I didn't have to know in my FOO. I simply didn't grow up with vast degrees of dysfunction, so I had lots of researching and reading to do. Plus, lots of trial and error to see what works and what doesn't.

I was throwing questions out there for anybody reading. 

I recently started reading a book that deals with spouses of sex addicts. I am not sure that part is relevant. One of the things that it has done for me is pointed out that it is quite common for people (therapists, self help groups, etc.) to label somebody as codependent when what is really going on is a normal response to a traumatic event.

It is amazing to see some of the symptoms of codependency placed next to symptoms of trauma. The deciding factor as to which category it is falls down to what my motivations are. I have had a lot of people try to tell me that my behaviors indicate that I am trying to control my husband. I am NOT a controlling person. Never have been. Never will be. I have had people in real life tell me that I need to be MORE controlling, not less.

One of the things was pointed out to me in this book and by a lady that I am working with is that sometimes, it isn't about controlling. It is about surviving. And, when placed in a situation that nobody should ever be put in, it messes with your mind. Being asked to choose between your son and your husband is a traumatic thing. No matter what you chose, you were kind of screwed. The reality is that a healthy person probably would have never put you into that kind of situation in the first place.

[Ceruleanblue]

VOC:

I agree with everything you say. It was a classic double blind, you are correct, either way, I was screwed. So, I chose to make the best of what I had. I am fighting for our marriage, and I go see my son quite often. I just went today, in fact. This means a commute for me, but BPDh of course, has given up his commute. He made his life easier, and mine harder. Typical.

I too have been given such conflicting advice, that it's sometimes hard to know which way is up. And I totally, totally agree that some things might present as codependent, but in actuality might not be. I've probably done a lot of things that are codependent, but in many cases, it was easier to go along than suffer the BPD consequences. Sad, but by giving in at times is just easier, if it's something I'm not that invested in. I choose to save my battles for things that really matter. For me, according to what you say, my motivation is SELF care(avoiding a BPD episode with BPDh), so I'd interpret that to be not really codependent. Like you stated, it's more survival and having peace.

And I agree that a healthy person would not have made me choose, and I'm hoping at some point his DBT therapist addresses this, and if not you can be sure we'll be addressing it in marriage therapy. It's done, and not discussing it might be easier, but I don't want resentment to fester in me, and our marriage therapist seems to be making headway so I'll let him address why this was not cool.

Our marriage therapist has finally gotten BPDh to see that his grown kids have an "all or nothing" mentality. His words. I sat there thinking: how BPD is that?

At this point, I think my feelings and reactions have been pretty normal for the situation my BPDh put me in, in regards to dealing with his kids, and the recent event with my son.

I think being loving can be a choice. I choose to love him, because clearly he has not earned my love by most of his actions. It's interesting to hear how other people view love, and how you've all chosen to address this issue. I'm glad I'm not the only one wondering how to keep loving my spouse.

[an0ught]

For me the loving got a lot easier once boundaries were back in place. I found it surprising and while I think it is counter-intuitive at least for me it makes sense looking back. I think it is hard in an enmeshed relationship to love - things are too muddled to get a clear feel for the other and for ourselves. There is fuzzyness between love and attachment. I think when enmeshed the often positive tension between us - intellectually and intimately - suffered. I often think restoring love is impossible, restoring respect is and with it love can grow back.

[Notwendy]

I just wanted to make it clear that I was using the term co-dependent in the context that it was aimed at me, not anybody else. There are many reasons for people's behaviors. Also, I don't maintain that one method fits everyone. I put what I felt worked for me out there in the case that it might help someone else, but others are free to make their own choices.

I also shared that my initial reaction to the idea was being angry and upset, thinking it was quite unfair that this focus was on me, not the people in my life who I felt were far more difficult to deal with. But at the time, I had hit an emotional bottom, tried all I could think of, and so, ran out of my own ideas.

There have been several opinions posted here, all valuable. Often I read other posts and it makes me think of things in different ways.

[Indiegrl]

Ceruleanblue,

I would like to share something our family councelor said to us, when my undiagnosed ex-boyfriend discussed the issue of us moving together. (We live in different cities). Even though I really wanted us to share adress, I had great difficulties even at the idea of moving my kids again: The divorce from their father left them with losing not only him, but also us moving to another city (where my family network is at great help). Because my kids have gone through this process before, I feel very hesitant to do it again. I was open on the fact that this is my trauma, and that I would need time, much time, to handle it in a constructive way.

This situation made the discussion about a future moving toghether very difficult. He pressed and accused me of not being active enough, of not sharing my thoughts and plans with him, of almost "sabotaging" the project. I tried to tell him that the pressure he was putting me under felt almost unbearable, that I was not able to say "when" we would move to his city, cause this is a matter of my emotions maturing, and that it had to take the time necessary, that one couldn't "jump" over it, one has to go through it.

Okey, the family councelor said this:

"Based on my thirty years of experience, I will tell you this: If one partner puts the other in the dilemma of choosing between the the role of being a good parent and the role of being a good partner, the partner-role is doomed to loose. This act of making someone choose, pressuring a partner to put their partners best interest before the interests of your own child, that is jeopardizing the entire relationship. Because nothing is stronger than a persons drive to be a good parent, and the pressure put on you to supress that part of you in order to be "a good partner", is devastating."

In other words: The resentment is unavoidable, so to speak, in this case.

I told my ex that I needed to feel his empathy on my deep-rooted concern over moving my children from everything known and dear to them for the second time in their life. That I needed that feeling from him as a part in my process to reach the goal: To be able to move without full-blown anxiety and lurking resentment towards him. He told me simply that if he had the full custody for his children, he would move them to my city for us to be together.

This one made me quiet then, but in retrospect: He would never ever do that! He is superprotective of his own children, no way he would have moved them, I simply cannot believe he would ever be able to do that. So it was easy for him to say, because it was not relevant!

My ex had a thing he always "drilled" on the kids (both mine and his): That it's not allowed to say "It's unfair!". This was made with humor and laughter, but it very effectively ruled out the option to point out: This is not fair. In retrospect, I start to realize that there might have been many sets of double standards in this relationship.

Take care 

[formflier]

 

Ceruleanblue,

That you feel resentment from this... .IMO... .is entirely appropriate.

What you do with that feeling... .may or may not be healthy.

I've done some reading... .and listened to some things that reinforce that bad feelings are a warning light... .and warning system... .calling you to tend to a certain area of your life.

So... .with that in mind... .has there been enough tending (by you) to this area? 

Also... .one other thought is that it may be helpful to think through who had choices... .and what choices they made.  Try to remember that while others may influence choices... .ultimately everyone is responsible for their own choices.

In this situation... .you husband certainly had choices.

You had choices... .

Your son had choices

Am I missing anyone that was part of... .or influenced the decision about your son's living arrangements?

Also... .is this choice permanent?  Is there a compromise?  Just thinking outloud here... .

FF

[takingandsending]

That you feel resentment from this... .IMO... .is entirely appropriate.

What you do with that feeling... .may or may not be healthy.

I've done some reading... .and listened to some things that reinforce that bad feelings are a warning light... .and warning system... .calling you to tend to a certain area of your life.

So... .with that in mind... .has there been enough tending (by you) to this area? 

Hi C-blue. This is also what I was trying to contribute. I have so much respect for you and the posters on this board. This is just tough stuff. And, for me, just as indiegirl posted, my kids come first. It is a trigger item for me because I, too, have received pressure from my spouse to choose her over my sons, which I will never do.

the family councelor said this:

"Based on my thirty years of experience, I will tell you this: If one partner puts the other in the dilemma of choosing between the the role of being a good parent and the role of being a good partner, the partner-role is doomed to loose. This act of making someone choose, pressuring a partner to put their partners best interest before the interests of your own child, that is jeopardizing the entire relationship. Because nothing is stronger than a persons drive to be a good parent, and the pressure put on you to supress that part of you in order to be "a good partner", is devastating."

That's why I asked you if this action of your H transgressed something to central to who you are, to what you believe in that makes you you. And as an0ught says, if that is the case, things might improve with revisiting your boundaries.

For me the loving got a lot easier once boundaries were back in place. I found it surprising and while I think it is counter-intuitive at least for me it makes sense looking back. I think it is hard in an enmeshed relationship to love - things are too muddled to get a clear feel for the other and for ourselves. There is fuzzyness between love and attachment. I think when enmeshed the often positive tension between us - intellectually and intimately - suffered. I often think restoring love is impossible, restoring respect is and with it love can grow back.

This is the route that I have been taking with my wife. It hasn't restored the love I once felt for her, but it is allowing positive regard for her to return, for me to stay just a little bit more open to the potential of positive within her. But I no longer accept aggressive, abusive language or minimization of the kids' feelings or beings. And, while all the things that Stalwart posted really are true and many apply to my wife, I did not shame her, and I will no longer carry the responsibility for her shame. I feel for her. I am sorry that she suffers, but I will not accept her trying to alleviate her suffering by causing those who love her to suffer.

I hope that you enjoy your time with your son, and be as honest in your feelings with him as you can be.