Codependent/Bpd relationships will never work

[Depression = 72% of members]

Something I came to understand recently.

It's kind of a catch 22 but I belive it separates those who TRULY love their BPD partner vs the ones who are codependently trapped in a feedback loop that never ends.

If you want a healthy relationship with your BPD or at least as healthy as possible, the main aspect that needs to be adressed is your own potential issues.

If you are going to be a stable and supportive partner for someone with BPD you sure as hell better be able to look after yourself first.

Bpd are reactive and very perceptive and they react to your internal issues as much as anything else.  You should never make anyone responsible for your happiness,  especially someone with BPD who struggles daily with depression and other issues.

Radical acceptance is one tool but I believe it must be applied with boundaries.  My firm boundary is no cheating. As for the rest of the symptoms, I have decided that I won't allow them to diminish ME.  I also had to get past the unrealistic expectations I had of her. Every day of her life is a struggle. Sometimes she's in a better place than others.  It's got nothing to do with me. I don't take it personally anymore and expect her to always be happy. She CAN'T.  It's not a reflection on me. If I take it personally and start to get annoyed at her it makes her feel worse and round and round we go.

a bit of support and relaxed state of mind is far better than getting butthurt

Devaluation can be halted in my experience because what is at the core of it is a loss of attraction which is then usually compounded with panic on the part of the non.  When you emotionally destabilize, the BPD follows suit in a much more severe way.

I have learned to halt devaluation by simply stating my expectations.

"I understand that you are upset right now and I feel for you.  I want to continue this relationship but I will not tolerate being disrespected.  Call me when you want to discuss this in a more civil way"

Then she rages, which I don't care about because she's just projecting her internal pain. It's NOT personal.

Then she calms down and apologizes because she realized she did wrong and she RESPECTS my stance.

It's early days in the RS but I'm learning and adapting. BPD relationships can teach you a lot and be very rewarding but only the strong should attempt them.

[Infern0]

Something I came to understand recently.

It's kind of a catch 22 but I belive it separates those who TRULY love their BPD partner vs the ones who are codependently trapped in a feedback loop that never ends.

If you want a healthy relationship with your BPD or at least as healthy as possible, the main aspect that needs to be adressed is your own potential issues.

If you are going to be a stable and supportive partner for someone with BPD you sure as hell better be able to look after yourself first.

Bpd are reactive and very perceptive and they react to your internal issues as much as anything else.  You should never make anyone responsible for your happiness,  especially someone with BPD who struggles daily with depression and other issues.

Radical acceptance is one tool but I believe it must be applied with boundaries.  My firm boundary is no cheating. As for the rest of the symptoms, I have decided that I won't allow them to diminish ME.  I also had to get past the unrealistic expectations I had of her. Every day of her life is a struggle. Sometimes she's in a better place than others.  It's got nothing to do with me. I don't take it personally anymore and expect her to always be happy. She CAN'T.  It's not a reflection on me. If I take it personally and start to get annoyed at her it makes her feel worse and round and round we go.

a bit of support and relaxed state of mind is far better than getting butthurt

Devaluation can be halted in my experience because what is at the core of it is a loss of attraction which is then usually compounded with panic on the part of the non.  When you emotionally destabilize, the BPD follows suit in a much more severe way.

I have learned to halt devaluation by simply stating my expectations.

"I understand that you are upset right now and I feel for you.  I want to continue this relationship but I will not tolerate being disrespected.  Call me when you want to discuss this in a more civil way"

Then she rages, which I don't care about because she's just projecting her internal pain. It's NOT personal.

Then she calms down and apologizes because she realized she did wrong and she RESPECTS my stance.

It's early days in the RS but I'm learning and adapting. BPD relationships can teach you a lot and be very rewarding but only the strong should attempt them.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[patientandclear]

Infern0, you wrote you have a firm boundary about cheating.  Your SO with BPD cheated on her last BF with you, and, if I'd recalling correctly, she drifted away from you on your last "recyle" and at least possibly returned to him in some ill-defined sense.

What are your thoughts about how you are applying or will apply that boundary, that you feel is critical?

Also, my sense from this message is that you feel warmth and affection for her.  But recently you posted about a booty call with her and called her a "fruitcake."  I want to just gently flag that YOUR emotions seem to be swinging wildly about this, and it seems like your views of her are altering based on the stance you want to rationalize.  This may signal that it's wise to slow down.  You may not be a safe partner for her if the stance in this post is so very fresh and you very recently felt quite differently.

Good luck.

[Infern0]

Infern0, you wrote you have a firm boundary about cheating.  Your SO with BPD cheated on her last BF with you, and, if I'd recalling correctly, she drifted away from you on your last "recyle" and at least possibly returned to him in some ill-defined sense.

What are your thoughts about how you are applying or will apply that boundary, that you feel is critical?

Also, my sense from this message is that you feel warmth and affection for her.  But recently you posted about a booty call with her and called her a "fruitcake."  I want to just gently flag that YOUR emotions seem to be swinging wildly about this, and it seems like your views of her are altering based on the stance you want to rationalize.  This may signal that it's wise to slow down.  You may not be a safe partner for her if the stance in this post is so very fresh and you very recently felt quite differently.

Good luck.

Valid criticism.

Yes she cheated with me. When she distanced after recycle 2 she did not go back to my replacement.  It'd be foolish to ignore the fact that she has cheated though.  But hence the boundary.  If we end up in a committed relationship and she cheats it's over.  It's that simple.

As for the fruitcake comment.  It was uncalled for posturing. I see why people may be doubting me. I don't doubt myself so it bears little importance to me.

[vortex of confusion]

It is good to be confident in yourself.

One of the things that I have learned over the years (17) is not to get too confident too fast. Proceed with caution.

I guess it was about a month ago, the my husband and I agreed to be "just friends" that are living together to raise our kids. We were setting up a sort of business arrangement to live in the house together and raise our kids. A couple weeks later, he completely changed his tune and now we are back to trying to be husband and wife. I am confused and hesitant. This is after a whole lot of years of doing pretty close to what you are doing. Things would get bad, we would fight, I would feel pretty hopeless. Something would happen and my husband would go back to being "normal" and then I would get confident and forget about all of the other stuff that happened. Because he seemed so changed and I had done so much work, it all felt really good. Now, I am much more hesitant. Now, I am trying to be careful and make sure that things truly are different and that I am not getting caught up in any kind of magical thinking that somehow this time will be different.

Good luck! None of this easy.

[formflier]

 

Interesting title to the thread.

My first thought is... .it depends on the definition of "work".

Here is the thing... .many nons continue on in a r/s... .doing the "dysfunctional dance"... .but have no idea that anything is wrong.

I was in that category for a while... .so... .it worked for me... .

Then... .I was uncomfortable... .was trying counseling... .but still didn't get the odd behavior.  And... .I wasn't getting the desired result from counseling.  But... .the r/s was still functional... .and I would say worked.

Then... .things went off the rails... .she stomped out of counseling... .and I first heard of BPD and started to understand what I had been part of. 

At that point it no longer worked... .it was too shocking... .too troubling.  Lots of bad stuff went on... .that I now see as a "turning point" in our r/s... .because... .

We are back to something that works.  We are still improving... .still have our moments.  But... .there is a functional... .working relationship.

So... .there is a part to "ignorance is bliss"... .it does work.  For me... .once I understood and I knew something had to change. 

This might be a bit of a ramble... .still drinking first cup of coffee... .   

FF

[ASD]

One of the things that I have learned over the years (17) is not to get too confident too fast. Proceed with caution.

I guess it was about a month ago, the my husband and I agreed to be "just friends" that are living together to raise our kids. We were setting up a sort of business arrangement to live in the house together and raise our kids. A couple weeks later, he completely changed his tune and now we are back to trying to be husband and wife. I am confused and hesitant. This is after a whole lot of years of doing pretty close to what you are doing. Things would get bad, we would fight, I would feel pretty hopeless. Something would happen and my husband would go back to being "normal" and then I would get confident and forget about all of the other stuff that happened. Because he seemed so changed and I had done so much work, it all felt really good. Now, I am much more hesitant. Now, I am trying to be careful and make sure that things truly are different and that I am not getting caught up in any kind of magical thinking that somehow this time will be different.

I completely identify with your statements here!  I let myself forget the craziness, thinking that since today and yesterday were ok, tomorrow will be too.  Then something slaps me in the face to remind me that I live in a storm and I am left reeling.  Like right now.  I have to remember that I haven't done anything wrong and that I have to wait until this rage passes which might be an hour or it could several weeks. 

That sucks! Is that any way to live a life?  I worry that, like today when I can't go home at a normal time, the children will be children and she'll rage on them and their reality will be shaken once again.  That's just not fair.  So what do I do?  Do I break business plans that had been made willingly and agreed to by her so I can make sure they're ok and make it seem that I am giving in to her rage and giving her what she wants: attention (whether it's negative or not)?  No, I have to stand firm.  I worry though.  Am I making a terrible mistake and I should leave and take the children?  The next problem then is, how to make sure I get the kids.  It's too much to bear sometimes.

[apollotech]

"If we end up in a committed relationship and she cheats it's over.  It's that simple."

Infern0,

I have followed your story on these boards for quite awhile. Why do you now think/believe that, going forward, she will not cheat? Just curious about your reasoning here.

[Achaya]

I wonder if people who stay in relationships with pwBPD are motivated in part by an ego need to see themselves as one of the special people who can really handle the pwBPD partner, unlike others (past lovers, other nons involved with similar partners, etc.). People who fit the pleasing, codependent type have narcissistic needs to see themselves as better saviors, lovers, and caretakers. Other people may have an equally compelling image of themselves as the ones who can really handle the destructive behaviors of the pwBPD the way they "should be" handled, with tough boundaries and the strength to withstand all the pwBPD can throw at them.

There is a similar debate in the professional literature regarding the "right" approach to pwBPD, with some advocating "reparenting" and others emphasizing confrontation and limit-setting. My impression is that this debate gets bitter and personal sometimes among the various experts.

I think all of this competitiveness is somehow triggered by the BPD itself. I also think that anyone who gets cocky about having the right answers about how to relate to pwBPD is setting himself/herself up for a serious crash. I think that pwBPD look at this kind of arrogance and see someone who needs to be taken down a few notches. And how well they can do that!

[Infern0]

"If we end up in a committed relationship and she cheats it's over.  It's that simple."

Infern0,

I have followed your story on these boards for quite awhile. Why do you now think/believe that, going forward, she will not cheat? Just curious about your reasoning here.

She might.  Nothing I can do about it but set a firm boundaries and stick to them.

It takes two at the end of the day, all I can do is put my best foot forward and see how it goes.  If she chooses to ruin things that's on her.

I've reached a healthy mental state, I'll give her the best love I can give,  if it's not enough then hey.  I tried.

[Infern0]

I wonder if people who stay in relationships with pwBPD are motivated in part by an ego need to see themselves as one of the special people who can really handle the pwBPD partner, unlike others (past lovers, other nons involved with similar partners, etc.). People who fit the pleasing, codependent type have narcissistic needs to see themselves as better saviors, lovers, and caretakers. Other people may have an equally compelling image of themselves as the ones who can really handle the destructive behaviors of the pwBPD the way they "should be" handled, with tough boundaries and the strength to withstand all the pwBPD can throw at them.

There is a similar debate in the professional literature regarding the "right" approach to pwBPD, with some advocating "reparenting" and others emphasizing confrontation and limit-setting. My impression is that this debate gets bitter and personal sometimes among the various experts.

I think all of this competitiveness is somehow triggered by the BPD itself. I also think that anyone who gets cocky about having the right answers about how to relate to pwBPD is setting himself/herself up for a serious crash. I think that pwBPD look at this kind of arrogance and see someone who needs to be taken down a few notches. And how well they can do that!

Completely disagree with the last paragraph.  I don't think true pwBPD are running some kind of agenda to "bring people down". Sociopath maybe but not BPD.

[myself]

It's still push and pull if it's taking stands, acting out and apologizing.

It may alter pace, but how much/how long will you keep going?

(Depends on what your definition of 'happiness/togetherness' is... .)

[Infern0]

It's still push and pull if it's taking stands, acting out and apologizing.

It may alter pace, but how much/how long will you keep going?

(Depends on what your definition of 'happiness/togetherness' is... .)

Until the bad outweighs the good.

The definition of a good relationship is two people coming together to add to each others lives.

I belive that this is possible with a pwBPD. 

I love many things about my BPD.  Her headstrong nature, her irreverent sense of humor,  her passion,  her kind side. Many things.

There's a lot of negative too, of course.

I'm just saying I belive BPD deserve love as much as anyone else,  and I'm THEORIZING that I'm in a better place to have a Crack at a relationship with her than I have ever been.

But again, we'll see how it goes.  I honestly feel with my new attitude the only thing I have to lose is time.

People who are "overly concerned" might want to check their codependent tendencies.  It's not for you to tell me how to live my life.

[apollotech]

Thanks for your response Infern0. I wish you and your lady all the best. A true success story would surely be welcomed by all.

[Notwendy]

No worries, Inferno. I think we all know that your relationship is truly only a matter between the two of you.

Nobody has to take any advice that was offered on this board or agree with it if it doesn't apply to them,  however, you might want to consider your dismissal of the people who offered advice on this board.  I hope you no longer need to ask for advice here, but if I had any advice, it would be to not burn your bridges here. Still, anything and everything you do is entirely up to you.

[Mustbeabetterway]

One of the things that I have learned over the years (17) is not to get too confident too fast. Proceed with caution.

I guess it was about a month ago, the my husband and I agreed to be "just friends" that are living together to raise our kids. We were setting up a sort of business arrangement to live in the house together and raise our kids. A couple weeks later, he completely changed his tune and now we are back to trying to be husband and wife. I am confused and hesitant. This is after a whole lot of years of doing pretty close to what you are doing. Things would get bad, we would fight, I would feel pretty hopeless. Something would happen and my husband would go back to being "normal" and then I would get confident and forget about all of the other stuff that happened. Because he seemed so changed and I had done so much work, it all felt really good. Now, I am much more hesitant. Now, I am trying to be careful and make sure that things truly are different and that I am not getting caught up in any kind of magical thinking that somehow this time will be different.

I completely identify with your statements here!  I let myself forget the craziness, thinking that since today and yesterday were ok, tomorrow will be too.  Then something slaps me in the face to remind me that I live in a storm and I am left reeling.  Like right now.  I have to remember that I haven't done anything wrong and that I have to wait until this rage passes which might be an hour or it could several weeks. 

That sucks! Is that any way to live a life?  I worry that, like today when I can't go home at a normal time, the children will be children and she'll rage on them and their reality will be shaken once again.  That's just not fair.  So what do I do?  Do I break business plans that had been made willingly and agreed to by her so I can make sure they're ok and make it seem that I am giving in to her rage and giving her what she wants: attention (whether it's negative or not)?  No, I have to stand firm.  I worry though.  Am I making a terrible mistake and I should leave and take the children?  The next problem then is, how to make sure I get the kids.  It's too much to bear sometimes.

I am at the point in my rs the bad outweighs the good.  Like VOC I have lived with the push/pull, trying to forget yesterday and move forward together.  I have been working on myself for a while now.  The insight I have gained has changed me to the point of realization that he will not change,   For a long time, I thought the rs had turned a corner when things went well, but that was denial on my part.  When a person changes themselves, the relationship changes.  That is for sure. 

He is angry at me, our extended family, the neighbors and most of our friends.  It is extremely isolating.  My efforts of creating a happy life for us as a couple have resulted in unhappiness for both.

[formflier]

"If we end up in a committed relationship and she cheats it's over.  It's that simple."

Infern0,

I have followed your story on these boards for quite awhile. Why do you now think/believe that, going forward, she will not cheat? Just curious about your reasoning here.

She might.  Nothing I can do about it but set a firm boundaries and stick to them.

It takes two at the end of the day, all I can do is put my best foot forward and see how it goes.  If she chooses to ruin things that's on her.

I've reached a healthy mental state, I'll give her the best love I can give,  if it's not enough then hey.  I tried.

 

Solid reasoning... .!

FF

[jody452]

I think what we forget or try to hide from ourselves when in a relationship with someone with BPD.
We all read these posts and so far I have not come across one that has been able to have a happy healthy relationship with a person with BPD.

Yet we all sit here and hope we can break that cycle, that we can be the one that beats the odds.

I have only 2 months ago got out of a relationship with a BPD, while it in at many times I wanted out but couldn't leave. She filled a void inside me, she made the inner child in me feel loved and accepted. No one else ever has before, but what I am coming to realize is that no one can. I have to find a way to love myself, to feel like I am enough.

I wonder if all of us left by a BPD have something missing that they filled? Has anyone else thought this or felt it?

MY BPD cheated on me too, and I also said that is one thing i would not accept in a relationship. Yet i did time and time again and I still am now. Even though she has moved on and is sleeping with someone else. I use her BPD as an excuse for what she did so I've set myself up to forgive her should she ever change her mind and come back to me. I've come to the point where I need to realize I am the one with the problem I think deep down all of us know that aspects of our relationships with a BPD aren’t right, yet we hang on and fight to maintain them.

Today is day 1 again of no contact for me. 21 days is the magic number I am trying to reach, so far I haven't been able to make it beyond 10.

To everyone else out there reading these we are not alone, we can do this togther

[Emotions]

Amen Jody! I went 5 day so no contact and broke down today... .I'm thinking of a plan for me might be to send a text saying something like I am thinking of you and I hope you are doing well. I would do this at the same time on the same day once a week. Then I delete it so I can't see if or when she reads it, and I won't expect a response. The goal being to just keep in contact but not completely let go. Thoughts on this anyone? I would focus the other 6.5 days on myself and controlling my mind and thoughts and focusing on what I always wanted to do while I was stuck feeling "controlled" by her emotions. My relationship might be done anyway so this might be a mute point in 6 months, however in the meantime it's my hope to let go, and keep a little light shining for us as well.

[jody452]

Emotions - don't send the text... .nothing good will come from it except you feeling worse. Trust me on this. I've done it many times and each time it sets me back further.

There is an old saying 'if there is a will, there is a way' and if your ex wanted to be with you they would find a way. This is hard for myself to say as I am still hanging onto the hope that she will see the light. That she will want to face her BPD and want to change and want back with me. Not a day goes by that I don't think or want that.

I think the next step for us Emotions is us to accept its over. I'm not there yet, I sit and steer at my phone and email all the time. Hoping she'll write. I do know that I cant text or write to her though, and you need to do the same.

Its ok to hang onto hope for now, but its not ok to keep hurting yourself and by sending that text you are doing just that. You wont get the reply you wont, so please don't send it. Instead send a text to your child self as an adult, what would you say to yourself?

[kc sunshine]

hi infern0 and everyone!

great thread-- thank you. I'm interested in learning more about your ex's rages these days infern0-- are they about the same things that they used to be about or are they about different things? Also do you talk about your previous relationship or do you just leave that be and are starting anew.

Here's hoping things go well-- thanks so much for keeping us posted-- I feel like I've learned so much from your process, so I'm wondering what this chapter will teach.

[Grey Kitty]

Infern0, I think your original title that Codep/BPD r/s can never work has a very good point.

The point I see is that as long as YOU behave in codependent ways, you will let the BPD behavior cause train wreck after train wreck after train wreck.

If you deal with some of your issues, and if you find the strength to take care of yourself first, that changes the relationship.

That's what you described here.

"I understand that you are upset right now and I feel for you.  I want to continue this relationship but I will not tolerate being disrespected.  Call me when you want to discuss this in a more civil way"

Then she rages, which I don't care about because she's just projecting her internal pain. It's NOT personal.

Then she calms down and apologizes because she realized she did wrong and she RESPECTS my stance.

You even got the "bonus" here, that she apologized for her behavior and respects your stance. (aka growth on her part)

If she had refused to "let" you get away, you would have continued to enforce the boundary and keep your distance until the dysregulation passed.

So she didn't have to 'give in', but even if she didn't, the result would have been the same--she didn't get to continue raging at you/blaming you.

And this kind of strength is EXACTLY what it takes to make things better. You've stopped your old codependent behaviors. Things are better. Congratulations!

[kc sunshine]

I've been thinking about this aspect of the conversation, and it gets to a tough question for me-- what is the relationship between BPD and behavior that could be interpreted as cruel. I agree with infern0 that it is not intentional, but I do think it is an aspect of the disease. As I understand it, devaluation isn't just because of a lack of attraction, but rather it is linked to a compulsion to get out of a relationship that is too close (engulfment) while soothing intense fear of abandonment (through devaluation or triangulation). For me I could detach pretty well from the rages but not so well from the devaluations that were leading to the breakups, because I was attached to the relationship.

Another thing I am thinking about is the timeline-- each recycle got shorter and shorter (or me and my BPD ex, it was 9 months, then 6 months, then 3 months). For us, all the really bad behavior always came at the end-- I would have escaped a lot of the cruelty if I had ended things a couple or weeks before she did each time.

Completely disagree with the last paragraph.  I don't think true pwBPD are running some kind of agenda to "bring people down". Sociopath maybe but not BPD.