How to want to have sex

[ZakBPD]

Hi everyone -

I know this is terribly personal, but I don't know where else to get input about this.  My wife and I have been together about 20 years and have had sex about 20 times... .most of those times in the first couple of years before she started misreading things I said and did.  I get anxious at the thought of having sex with her because she gets triggered so often without any warning.  Any time I am not happy about something connected to her, she feels criticized, shamed, and I don't get a chance to get understood.  We haven't slept in the same bed for over a decade because the only places I feel completely safe and peaceful are in my office with the door closed and in my bedroom with the door closed (too anxious to sleep with her in the bed with me).

I would imagine there are other spouses out there in a similar situation.  How do you have sex when the relationship feels tense the majority of the waking hours?

Thanks in advance for any shares... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Wow... .very tough... .

Have you talked to a T about this.  I'm guessing this is a complex enough issue and one filled with personal nuance that it would be hard to effectively work through it online.

My general advice would be to try to up the validation level... .to attempt to decrease the tension.

Is this a topic your wife and you can openly discuss?

FF

[Notwendy]

Is your relationship affectionate in other ways- like cuddling, kissing, hugging?

It happens in many of the relationships here. Intimacy is when people are more vulnerable, and being vulnerable for a pw BPD and their spouse - in time, is very difficult.

When my H painted me black, it felt as if I could do nothing right. He refused to be affectionate with me, and just wanted to get down to business. So, he expected sex, but not loving affection and if I refused sex for any reason, he'd rage.  He says he is attracted to me now, but after years of being criticized, my self esteem in the bedroom had gone to H3ll.

I really like affection, but any affection meant -get down to business. So, if I hugged him, or even acted affectionate and then, didn't get down to business- that would result in a rage. Sometimes, I just like to hug. So, I basically do not flirt or touch him or even act friendly unless I am prepared to do it all. If he even touches me, I get tense because I am not sure if he means it or just wants to get to the main event.

Some guys might ask what's wrong with expecting sex, or at least that's what my H would say, but after years of no romance and just doing it, feeling like a sex provider, being raged at for wanting affection too, it messes with your feelings. Now my H complains that I am not affectionate, but I feel as if that is just ruined now.

Not having sex would be one way to avoid all this, but I think in the long run, it would be very painful in a marriage. No doubt it is painful emotionally to your wife now, although it is hard to tell what is going on with her. I get what you mean about being criticized, as that is what did it for me. How can he expect me to feel desire and be vulnerable after that.

This, to me, was the key to understanding it and also help build my self esteem back: The criticism was a reflection of his feelings of insecurity, not me. I wish I had known that at the time. The strange thing is that he feels he is criticized all the time as so much of what he hears goes down that BPD filter of criticism. Much of what he criticized me for were things he thought I was doing but he was doing himself- witholding affection, being critical.  I was not doing those things but since he thought them, he believed it.

Another part of our miscommunication is not being clear about what he wants, so he might slightly hint, and if I don't pick up on it, then he can feel rejected and I won't even know. Then, if initiate, he can reject me as a payback. That has been hurtful too, but he really sees me as rejecting him. This also led him to misread any sign of affection from me as hey let's do it now, even if all I was doing was a hug. Then I would get accused of misleading him.

I think therapy is helpful - if not just for this issue but to help you with your own self esteem and to deal with the criticism. It is more about her, her insecurities, than you. But from the female side, if I had one wish, it would be to be able to hug, kiss, and be affectionate for the sake of that. Sure, it may lead to something else, but it also stands alone. So, if you have not been affectionate, and being affectionate makes her anxious, maybe just saying you would like to start there, without expectations would be one step in on the path to being closer.

[Hmcbart]

Is your relationship affectionate in other ways- like cuddling, kissing, hugging?

It happens in many of the relationships here. Intimacy is when people are more vulnerable, and being vulnerable for a pw BPD and their spouse - in time, is very difficult.

When my H painted me black, it felt as if I could do nothing right. He refused to be affectionate with me, and just wanted to get down to business. So, he expected sex, but not loving affection and if I refused sex for any reason, he'd rage.  He says he is attracted to me now, but after years of being criticized, my self esteem in the bedroom had gone to H3ll.

I really like affection, but any affection meant -get down to business. So, if I hugged him, or even acted affectionate and then, didn't get down to business- that would result in a rage. Sometimes, I just like to hug. So, I basically do not flirt or touch him or even act friendly unless I am prepared to do it all. If he even touches me, I get tense because I am not sure if he means it or just wants to get to the main event.

You almost described me. But in my case, she wanted the affection and romance but after dealing with being painted black for weeks and months at a time, the window of opportunity for anything other than just business was very small. I would love to cuddle and just hold her but because in her mind I am only doing this to get what I want, she doesn't like to do it.

Also I would have the same mentality as your husband but for different reasons. I would go so long without any affection from her and al my attempts to show her affections were rebuffed. If she did come up and act affectionate, I incorrectly assumes she wanted to have sex. It just made things worse.

Zak, I wish I had advice for you but this is an area I'm still dealing with. It's always one reason after another for her not to have sex. It got really bad last year after MC when I learned that I have a say in the marriage. It just turned out that sex was not the thing I had a say in. I was told that after her trying to do what I want (sex 4 times in 4 months) that I still got mad at her about it.

In MC she agreed to sex every other Friday and never once lived up to what she agreed to. The funny part is she set the time and amount, I just said yes. Needless to say she could go through with it. After some pretty ugly words from both of us, she told me that I had a say in our sex life the same as her.

She said that we can have sex if and when she is in the mood and that's it. The choice she gave me was if I didn't like it, I could leave. She also added in that if I choose that option she would be moving back to Texas with our kids because she would need the support of family.

So that's what counts as a 50/50 choice in my marriage. I have had sex once this year, in March. I really gave up on even trying anymore, its not worth it.

[Notwendy]

I think that dealing with differences in desire are typical issues in a marriage, but the agreements that would work between people who are more emotionally healthy would not go to the extremes that they do here. For instance, having a choice would not include no sex at all, and taking one for the team would happen, but not be the main reason. I think these issues start because, well people are humans. A spouse might be tired, or not feel up to it, and while that may be hurtful to the other partner, he or she can rationalize that hey, things are good in general, he/she is tired today. For my H, any no became a deep seated rejection and a NEVER to him and so he projected that back. I wish I had understood that.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .wow... .  to all in this thread.

I have no idea if I am... .or my r/s is "normal" in this area... .it is what it is... .

It's a Christian based philosophy that says that my body is for my wife and mine is for her... .we are generally together on our religious philosophy so this works out for us.

Mindset wise... .it means I've got to be pretty sick... .bad off to turn her down and and generally she is the same way for me. 

The philosophy that says people should have sex only when they feel like it... .is a bit foreign to me. 

I do identify with being raged at... .and then expected to have sex... .it was a bit weird... .I worked through it.

So... .my hope is that as communication improves and each of you guys start to do more things for the other spouse... .that they will reciprocate and have sex... .because you want to... .

It would be interesting to listen to your spouses explain why they should only have sex when they feel right about it... .hopefully a counselor can guide them out of that thinking.

Last thought:  Notwendy is spot on with the need for women to be touched in a affectionate... .even sexual way... .and have there be no connection to sex... .or the sex be several hours off. 

Not sure how that would be received by either of your wives... .but if it is not received well... .I think I would keep doing it... .and let them explain to MC why they don't want gentle touches... .affectionate touches.  I think there would be lots to validate there.

My personal favorite... .and what I think my wife enjoys is a hug from behind where I kiss back of her neck and usually whisper a compliment... .or something I appreciate about her  (in other threads... .I'm trying to sort out complimenting and validating... .)  Those tend to be quick.

For front hugs... .she seems to enjoy letting those linger.  I remember reading an article that said a hug needed to last longer than 10 seconds... .or something like that... .to cause release of some of hormone... .that relates to bonding.  No idea if that was bunk internet stuff... .or real.  It seems to work for us.

No idea if all of this is TMI... .or rambling.  Hoping it gives some ideas for you guys to approach your wives... .

Women generally need the affection first... .then the sex... .guys tend to need the sex... .and then relax and give affection... .

But... .then when you through in BPD traits... .all sorts of stuff can come up... .

Enough for now... .hope this helps... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Do you guys know your wives love languages?

[Notwendy]

If I had one thing that was helpful it would be to see what what they say about us is a reflection of what is in their heads, not reality. In general, I would not turn down my H much, as FF suggests, because I think it is an important part of marriage, but I had no idea that any turn down would feel disastrous to him.

Your posts gave me a reality check with which to consider my H's accusations and criticisms of me. In our younger years, a few days lapse meant I was accused of "never". Now, at middle age, longer than a week is "never" and once a week is not enough. Yes, guys, you read that right.

I never intentionally withheld from him- but being human, there were times that I was not up to the task for reasons such as nausea of pregnancy or not feeling well. These were temporary lapses in the context of a frequently physical relationship. I had no clue that at the time, these "not now" would be heard as deep rejections and "never" but they were. Even not saying no to him could not correct these feelings. I would not have considered not being intimate in a marriage. He had no reasons to think I would choose "never".

I only wish I knew then what I know now and didn't take it as personally as I did.

[Hmcbart]

This was the topic that caused her to use the victim status and not return to MC. It turned into her feeling pressured by to men to get her to have sex more often. I sat silently when she and the T negotiated to every other Friday thing. When she agreed to it I was very excited. I thought "ok, she final gets that's this is important to our marriage".

I was wrong and it only took a week for me to find out that it wasn't. I admit that I did get angry and rage on my part. I felt that she would never agree to something like this if she wasn't willing to do it.

I know that I shouldn't have but with each Friday that it was supposed to be scheduled and she came up with another reason why I wasn't going to happen I just got more and more bitter.

It did happen 4 times in 4 months. This was 4 years worth of normal for her. But each time I felt more and more like she didn't want to be there. That's not what I want. I want to feel needed as a man by my wife. Her idea of making me feel needed was needing me to take out the trash and get the oil changed in her car (her words exactly).

As far as love language, I think she is speaking Latin and I'm speaking English.

[Notwendy]

I'll add some humor here. The other night we were watching TV and the husband made dinner for his wife. I must have been staring in disbelief, because my H said what are you thinking?

Well, I had a mother who did not do housework or much cooking and my H doesn't either. To be fair, he does a lot of things I don't do. He is also happy to take me out to dinner. But mom didn't cook, so to me, someone cooking dinner for me would be really unusual. So I laughed and said " I think this is porn to me"

Cooking a meal for my H is a huge love language for him. The converse though, is that if I don't, he can feel rejected. I understand the idea of love language, but I think we also have to consider the hidden "rejection" language that we may not be aware of.

[Stalwart]

Wow great conversations and I think most of us here are hard-pressed in one way and for so many different reasons in our relationships.

I can say in mine a few years back (before awareness of the issues of BPD) I went off having sex for two basic reasons. One, I felt she used sex to validate inappropriate actions: If she did something that would upset me or she knew upset me without me saying anything she would want to have sex. It was as though sex would validate or overrule any behavior and I really felt like she was using sex as a tool. Not my thing. There was also the issue of being 'painted black" and who can really perceive want in that situation.

Secondly I felt as though she actually didn't enjoy sex but rather it was a requirement of a relationship and both feeling led to me disconnecting sexually.

It was just too much ' emotional work' and I always felt as though it had to be me to initiate sexual togetherness and who really wants to feel that another person is having a sexual relationship out of felt-necessity rather than want. Dealing with oddities that I was so unaccustomed to in my past relationship was more than difficult.

The disconnect really led to huge problems as she perceived my lack of want as "He's just going to leave me."

Wow the bedroom (or whatever) is really hard at the best of times to negotiate.

I can really relate to formfliers post when he asked if the people here know their partners "love language." I'd like to take it a step farther and ask: Does your partner know yours?

After the problem years back of infidelity and trying to rebuild that was the first book I bought:  "The Five Love Languages", by Gary Chapman.

It really is a very simple read and really informative with regards to an awareness of the differences in our wants. Reading it is a learning experience if you apply it to yourself for understanding. It's even more affective if you can get your spouse engaged in reading it. Communicating about each other's thoughts on it - priceless.

It is a great tool to break the ice on an otherwise difficult conversation for most of us.I understand that's not possible in ever case but hey, leaving it around the house after you've read it can't harm trying to move in a better direction. Remember positive always beget and keeping away from negatives in the conversation is always a better approach.

Easy read and really informative - it's also not so difficult in breaking into a conversation because you can begin the conversation on 'their' take on it rather than your own and play down dysregulation, fear, guilt or motive with your partners thinking.  

[vortex of confusion]

I know this is terribly personal, but I don't know where else to get input about this.  My wife and I have been together about 20 years and have had sex about 20 times... .most of those times in the first couple of years before she started misreading things I said and did.  I get anxious at the thought of having sex with her because she gets triggered so often without any warning.  Any time I am not happy about something connected to her, she feels criticized, shamed, and I don't get a chance to get understood.  We haven't slept in the same bed for over a decade because the only places I feel completely safe and peaceful are in my office with the door closed and in my bedroom with the door closed (too anxious to sleep with her in the bed with me).

I have a couple of questions.

Do you have any idea why she isn't having sex with you? Is it lack of desire on her part? Is it lack of desire on your part?

I can really relate to not getting a chance to feel understood. It is really, really difficult to want to have sex with somebody that makes you feel so tense and upset. If you can't even sleep in the same room with her, it makes sense that you wouldn't have a desire to have sex with her. I haven't slept in the same room as my husband on a consistent basis in years. Instead of focusing on the sexual aspect, would it be possible to try to start smaller than that and maybe see if you could try to sleep in the same bed as her every once in a while? I have a difficult time wanting sex when I can't even sleep in the same bed as my husband. For me, it makes it almost feel like a hook up rather than an intimate act shared between a husband and wife.

Has your wife been to a doctor and gotten checked out? Are either of you attending therapy? My husband is a sex addict and there have been times in our marriage when he couldn't/wouldn't do anything with me sexually and then there were other times when he would use me as a dumpster (at least that is how it felt). My thoughts about sex in marriage are similar to what FF describes. As a wife, I have tried really hard to not withhold sex from my husband. For the longest time, I sucked it up and pretty much let my husband have it as much as he wanted it and then some. For the longest time, I was afraid that if I didn't take care of my husband sexually, then he would act out and revert back to taking care of things for himself without giving me a second thought.

I would imagine there are other spouses out there in a similar situation.  How do you have sex when the relationship feels tense the majority of the waking hours?

The easiest answer is, "You don't." If you don't feel like having sex with somebody that is being abusive towards you, that is perfectly normal. Sex is a very personal and very intimate act. It doesn't make sense to want to be that close to somebody that treats you so bad. My desire comes and goes based on how my husband treats me.

I can really relate to what Notwendy says about being expected to be ready to go whenever my husband wanted it. There for a while, all touch had to lead to sex. I felt very used when things were like that. Right now, I am trying to emphasize non-sexual touching. The more non-sexual touching there is, the more it seems like I am open to the other stuff.

[Stalwart]

Not to get too far off subject I just read NOTWENDY's. I'm evidently your alter ego.

"But mom didn't cook, so to me, someone cooking dinner for me would be really unusual. So I laughed and said " I think this is porn to me"

I love it and I so know how you feel. To be fair, again, my wife was single most of her life and when I met her it was clear she didn't a really couldn't cook. She pulled the "Call Mom and work all day making me a meal thing". I've never struggled so much in my life trying to eat a simple meal of poached salmon and rice while I kept a smile on my face (and fibbed) about how great it was.

Twelve years later I'm the cook. In some ways it saves the local fire department from a lot of calls. I don't mind, most often I find cooking therapeutic when I get in from work and she is appreciative.

Maybe once a year if I'm really busy or unable she'll offer to make a grilled cheese sandwich. It feels like a heaven sent luxury to be fed, even if you do have to say twenty time is twelve minutes how good it is in answer to her questions.  

Funny though the different and so similar lives most of us live. Thanks for the laugh Notwendy. Not most guys idea of porn but it does it for me.  

[Notwendy]

Stalwart.

I don't know what I'd do if he washed the dishes too.  

I think it is valuable to know what what makes someone feel loved is so individual and when dealing with partners who have poor self images, were possibly shamed or abused as children, something that seems minor to us can be felt as a devastating ego crush to them. We also brought our own issues to the relationship, and I know that my FOO wan't the best model for relationships. This isn't to say that we are responsible for their feelings- we are not, nor can we have control of them. We also don't have to tolerate cruel behavior- but it helps me to put this into context. I know that years ago ( I had a lot of nausea with pregnancies) I probably said no to my H, expecting him to see the woman who loved him was turning green with nausea, but once triggered, he heard what he heard.

While FF brings up the idea of sex in marriage as a Christian concept, we,(in the US) as a culture ,also have inherited some Christian puritan ideas that sex is dirty and there is some shame that I think people feel associated with it too. I think for most people, it all is pretty easy when both are in love in the beginning, and the reality of life sets in. Sooner or later, someone is going to say no for a perfectly reasonable reason- not feeling well, exhausted. In a healthy relationship, that might feel hurtful, but not a disaster. With black and white thinking, one time becomes "never". If shame is triggered by that no, the person can feel they did something wrong. Emotional intimacy brings even greater fear of abandonment. I think sex addiction is one way people deal with their fears.

With women, I think the fashion industry has made us feel as if any figure imperfections are to be ashamed of. Add that to being shamed as a child. I think most men don't hold women to standards of photoshopped fashion models, but thanks to media, I think we need extra reassurance.

We didn't deserve it, but it does help me keep ego intact to see the accusations as not being about me as much but coming from these fears. I like FF's idea of getting past the rage. I have a hard time with that. I love VOC's reference to just sucked it up and let him have it... .... .that's about the best description I've heard yet, but that's not a good place to be in either.

[formflier]

 

My wife's language is touch... .by a big margin.  Gift giving is almost nonexistent.

My language is acts of service... .and gift giving is almost non existent.

We do buy things for each other and appreciate it... .but it's not that big a deal.


Hey... .one idea or thought.  So... .there have been a couple times when I had sex... .and ended up feeling used... .but honestly... .don't remember much more than that.

Lots of times the sex was good... .satisfying... .but not explosive (wowzer or whatever the proper term is)

There have been times when I set out to have a wowzer evening... .and most of the times it doesn't happen.  The times when it happens are rarely planned.

Where I'm going with this... .is that I believe frequent sex is a "glue" that holds a r/s together... .soothes things... .

Also... .if partners only want to do it when they are "in the mood... .or when it will be great... ."... .boy... .that just hasn't been my experience.  The awesome times kinda sneak up on you... .

Anyway... .hopefully some of this helps craft a conversation that will help ease partners into more frequent sex.

Last thought for now. 

For someone to agree in counseling that they will do it on Friday's and then constant back out... .can that be anxiety... .not sure?

Would it be better to  have a couple coupons that you can hand over... ."see you in the bedroom in 5 minutes... ."  that kinda thing.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how have a set date that it will happen is bad... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

I don't know what I'd do if he washed the dishes too.  

I laughed myself silly on this one. He washed the dishes for me Mother's day weekend. I was over the moon. . .that is until I went to use the dishes that he washed! Instant reminder of why I don't ask him to do the dishes!

I think it is valuable to know what what makes someone feel loved is so individual and when dealing with partners who have poor self images, were possibly shamed or abused as children, something that seems minor to us can be felt as a devastating ego crush to them.

It is amazing how twisted their thinking sometime is. I will never forget the time we were having a conversation and I told him that I didn't feel special to him. Of course, he turned it around and said that I don't make him feel special. This was before I found out anything about BPD or anything like that. Anyway, I started listing off all of the things that I routinely do to let him know that I love him and that he is special to me. His response was, "But you are nice to everyone." Who would ever think that me being nice to other people would be seen as invalidating to him? How big of a jerk do I need to be to other people to make him feel special? It makes absolutely NO sense to me.

While FF brings up the idea of sex in marriage as a Christian concept, we,(in the US) as a culture ,also have inherited some Christian puritan ideas that sex is dirty and there is some shame that I think people feel associated with it too. I think for most people, it all is pretty easy when both are in love in the beginning, and the reality of life sets in.

This is HUGE and it is something that might be worth exploring further. My husband grew up in a very Catholic home. There was a lot of shame around sex and sexual desires. I am pretty sure that all of that shame is what contributed to his sex addiction. I will never forget his reaction on the first day of our marriage. We went back to my parent's house to get some stuff and he was being all weird. I asked what was up and he was, "Oh man, I am kind of embarrassed. Everybody knows what we have been doing." He was ashamed and weirded out because everybody knew that we had gone to a hotel on our wedding night and had sex. At the time, I didn't think anything of it. I thought it was kind of cute. Now, I see the far reaching implications of this line of thinking.

With women, I think the fashion industry has made us feel as if any figure imperfections are to be ashamed of. Add that to being shamed as a child. I think most men don't hold women to standards of photoshopped fashion models, but thanks to media, I think we need extra reassurance.

And add to all of that the double standards about it being okay for men to like and want sex. The same isn't true for women. If a guy isn't feeling up to having sex, there must be something wrong with him. He is defective. The stereotype is that all men want sex all of the time. Men are quite often portrayed as horn dogs. On the flip side, a woman that likes and enjoys sex is seen as a slut/whore/loose/etc. I have done a lot of reading over the years about this stuff because I felt like there was something wrong with me because I enjoy sex and, most importantly, I wanted to have a regular physical relationship with my husband. I naively thought that one of the purposes of getting married was to be able to enjoy those sorts of things in a safe environment with somebody that I am committed to and love. But, I have had people accuse ME of being a sex addict. I have been accused of all sorts of things when it comes to this area.

I love VOC's reference to just sucked it up and let him have it... .... .that's about the best description I've heard yet, but that's not a good place to be in either.

You have no idea. . .since my husband is a sex addict, there were times that it felt like my life depended on being able to make sure that any and all of his sexual desires were taken care of immediately. Throw some ED in there and mix it up with guilt and shame and it is a nice mix of dysfunction. I could be writhing in pain from cramps and feeling horrible and he would be upset and grumpy. At some point, I found out that he was upset because his first thought was, "What about my needs? How am I going to get what I need if she is in too much pain/on the rag/whatever?"

He used to not worry about that because it used to be such that it didn't matter how good or bad I felt. If I had the use of a hand, he was going to get what he needed/wanted. I stopped that and set some boundaries around what I would and wouldn't do.

[Notwendy]

Avoiding sex might not be about the sex but the emotional baggage connected with it.

At some point long ago, I said an unintentional "no" and it was experienced as an intentional rejection. So his response was to get revenge so I would know how it felt- and so began his rejecting me, not showing interest and affection as way to teach me how it felt.

To me, that came out of nowhere, and so began the cycle of hurt... .along with the imagined hurts on his end that were not based on reality, and the black and white thinking- "WE NEVER have sex ( two days afterwards), keeping schedule of what we "should" be doing and measuring me according to that... .and so on.

I get how a schedule can be problematic, but for some people it works to schedule it in. I wonder if having a 2 Fridays a month can result in more anxiety over the emotional baggage building up to that date that can affect things. I'm with FF about some spontaneous affectionate romantic time together. Also what goes into that Friday date?

If I was anticipating a Friday night romantic time, it might start with a lot of hugs and affection during the week ahead and some kind of plans for that night, even if it was to put the kids to bed early and rent a movie, or something that would include a nice time together that we could look forward to where the sex was part of being together.

[ZakBPD]

Wow... .thanks for all the replies! 

formflier - yes, we are in therapy and talking about this.  I am not sure how much we are going to be able to discuss how I am feeling as she quickly goes to a shame place and anger, but we may be able to make some progress through that.

NotWendy - we hold hands some, but not really.  Some hugging.  Very little kissing.  Nothing passionate from either of us.  About the criticism issue... .I don't so much feel criticized.  It is more the tension, anger, sadness, misinterpretation and retaliation from the shame and criticism she feels is coming from me (based on her childhood stuff).  My self esteem is fine around all this. I just find I don't want to be around it (and in result... .her).  I would rather be alone and that is the opposite of wanting to have sex with someone.  She is more open to being sexual than I am, but also not chomping at the bit.  It is me that is reluctant due to our history of her negativity towards me.

HmcBart - sounds like we are in slightly different places.  I am the one that feels no interest in sex due to be painted black for most of our relationship.

Stalwart - your situation sounds similar to mine, but I can't go through the act and feel connected to someone that reacts to me like she does.  I can do the act, sure, but I will need to be somewhere else mentally.  Thanks for the suggestion on the book.  I will check it out.

Vortex - I think I miscommunicated the situation based on the responses I received.  I am more the one not interested in sex.  Basically, how do I get the interest to be sexual with someone who treats me badly so much of the time to the point that I would rather be alone than spend time with her unless she is in a good place?  And, if she is in a good place, that can change at any time and I am still affected by years of not being heard or understood, being seen as someone I am not, not being able to say what is going on for me because she takes it as criticism and feels shame, being told I don't love her, that I don't care, don't think our relationship is important, etc.  When she is in a good place, she feels the love, values me, knows I value our relationship, etc, but then she gets triggered by something and it is hours, or days until the storm passes and the next ray of sunshine comes in for an unknown period of time.  Okay... .I just read the rest of your response and see that you understand the lack of desire piece.  It is sad to say, but I might feel more interested (sexually) in a hook-up with someone I have a good connection with but don't know very well than I am feeling with my wife.  Don't get me wrong, I love her very much (and that is why I stay)... .but doing things together (projects around the house, going on trips, etc) is often very stressful and not pleasurable.  We are in therapy and the issue of sex recently came up... .hence my fear and anxiety.  I really appreciate your response.  I haven't had desire for her in years.  I find her very attractive... .that isn't it.  It is more what you said about not feeling like having sex with someone who is abusive towards you.  And... .we might have a few days where things go well and I think about the idea of possibly wanting to maybe kiss her and then bam... .another wave hits.

I apprecate all the thoughts here.  It sounds like most couples here are doing the act in one form or another.   It is surprising to me to read that more people in situations like mine aren't having the same issue with a lack of desire from the non-BPD spouse.  How to feel interested in being sexual with someone that reacts to me in non-sexual situations the way she does on a regular basis makes it hard to consider wanting to be in a sexual situation with her.

[Notwendy]

"But you are nice to everyone." Who would ever think that me being nice to other people would be seen as invalidating to him? How big of a jerk do I need to be to other people to make him feel special? It makes absolutely NO sense to me.

I get this too. He doesn't think my being nice and outgoing to him is special because I am that way in general. Also, if I am nice to a friend, he says, "you aren't that nice to me". Heaven help me when I got excited about seeing a guy pal I grew up with who I haven't seen in years (never dated) and he got angry because I am not that excited to see him. Well, if I saw my friend every day too, I would not act like that either. That would be strange. It's all out of context.

"there were times that it felt like my life depended on being able to make sure that any and all of his sexual desires were taken care of immediately. Throw some ED in there and mix it up with guilt and shame and it is a nice mix of dysfunction. I could be writhing in pain from cramps and feeling horrible and he would be upset and grumpy. At some point, I found out that he was upset because his first thought was, "What about my needs? How am I going to get what I need if she is in too much pain/on the rag/whatever?"

Yup, I dealt with this too. Not with addiction, I don't think but some ideas my H had from some porn he saw. The thing is, my H didn't tell me much about what he wanted, but he would get angry at me for not doing it none the less. Somehow I was supposed to read his mind. I know that there can be discussion over the use of porn, but I think it takes a good sense of what reality is to put that into context. In my case, it was used as justification for his feeling of rejection by setting up the expectation that if I really thought he was desirable, I would read his mind and do what he was thinking.  Somehow, me , just being me, was not enough to fulfill his wishes but it was all I had to give him.

[Notwendy]

" And, if she is in a good place, that can change at any time and I am still affected by years of not being heard or understood, being seen as someone I am not, not being able to say what is going on for me because she takes it as criticism and feels shame, being told I don't love her, that I don't care, don't think our relationship is important, etc.  When she is in a good place, she feels the love, values me, knows I value our relationship, etc, but then she gets triggered by something and it is hours, or days until the storm passes and the next ray of sunshine comes in for an unknown period of time.  Okay... .I just read the rest of your response and see that you understand the lack of desire piece.  It is sad to say, but I might feel more interested (sexually) in a hook-up with someone I have a good connection with but don't know very well than I am feeling with my wife.  :)on't get me wrong, I love her very much (and that is why I stay)... .but doing things together (projects around the house, going on trips, etc) is often very stressful and not pleasurable.  We are in therapy and the issue of sex recently came up... .hence my fear and anxiety.  I really appreciate your response.  I haven't had desire for her in years.  I find her very attractive... .that isn't it.  It is more what you said about not feeling like having sex with someone who is abusive towards you.  And... .we might have a few days where things go well and I think about the idea of possibly wanting to maybe kiss her and then bam... .another wave hits."


I will try to respond to this, and I hope you can read through my threads that I too, experienced a loss of desire from taking his statements about me personally. They were not about me!  Look at the reality. I was not rejecting him, we were not "never having sex". I was not refusing to meet his needs. All of it was in his own mind.

If I had known then what I know now, I may have been able to hold on to one iota of confidence and maybe desire, but I bought into his ideas about me. Some of the work I have done on my own boundaries has helped me see what is him and what is me and that his ideas don't have to be true for me.

Your wife seems to want you, and as strange as this seems, you not wanting her does affect her feelings about herself, even if she isn't nice to you all the time, and you have every reason to have a lack of desire. As I write this, I am also talking to myself- for as much as my H hurt me, my loosing passion for him ( even if he caused it) has to affect him.

So what helped me the most is personal T, to improve my own emotional strength as a person. Then, to be blunt, I think it would help if you went through the motions. Something has to break the cycle between you two. Consider if she has the tendency to project, her bad feeling moments come from her feeling bad about herself. It doesn't matter if your wife is pretty. If you don't desire her, she is not going to feel pretty. It felt horrible to not have my H desire me.

If she feels desired, she might reflect that back on to you. So ramp up the affection, and just do it. Even if it takes some fantasy or blue pill to help, someone has to break the standoff.

[ASD]

1st: thank you for bringing this up.

My BPD SO rediscovered her sexuality about two years after undergoing weight loss surgery.  All of a sudden she wanted sex, and a lot of it.  I was still in the mindset that she hates her body, her self and sex is not going to happen so don't even try.  That was my reality for 10+ years. 

I got used to it, and with the additional strains on our relationship from verbal abuse, my stresses at work and the kids I am tired.  I guess I've lost a lot of my sex drive.  She doesn't care.  In a way I suppose I am withholding as a way to get back at her, and I shouldn't.  I need to let go, but I can't.  I am really emotionally hurt and tired.  I don't want more than hugs and kisses: too tired, and don't care.  She wants to act like we're 18 again and dress up, show up at my office to have sex and duck into hotel bathrooms for a quickie.  It ain't happen' and it's causing problems.  Even more problems to add to the already big pile.

I even went to urologist to get my testosterone levels up.  They're up now but I still don't care about sex.  I'd rather DIY - if you know what I mean.  I get what one poster said by feeling more comfortable and safe alone, especially in bed.  This morning she woke me up by basically throwing herself on me and wanting me to be "on" at 6 am on on a school morning.  Now I'm the bad one for not knowing that, and not doing that by mind reading. 

Trust.  I think it's all down to trust.  I don't trust her because, like today, she can be all sweet and nice (almost too much) and then something (today it took too long to put gas in her car) ruins her day and she turns on me and the compliments turn to insults at the flip of a switch.  How can I make myself vulnerable and engage in intimacy if that's a possibility with the next breath?

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex - I think I miscommunicated the situation based on the responses I received.  I am more the one not interested in sex.  Basically, how do I get the interest to be sexual with someone who treats me badly so much of the time to the point that I would rather be alone than spend time with her unless she is in a good place? 

The easy answer is that you don't. It is much easier for a female to rise to the occasion even if she isn't into/feeling it. With guys, it is totally different. If you aren't interested, you aren't interested and that is totally understandable.

And, if she is in a good place, that can change at any time and I am still affected by years of not being heard or understood, being seen as someone I am not, not being able to say what is going on for me because she takes it as criticism and feels shame, being told I don't love her, that I don't care, don't think our relationship is important, etc. 

I can understand this. My husband has never really came out and said some of this stuff directly. He is more like a pouting child. There have been times when he has acted like I am some kind of horrible monster. I won't lie. My husband and I experimented with an open relationship because he had lost interest in me. I found where he was telling another lady that I don't tell him that I love him and that I was just a horrible wife. I was so floored to read that. And to top it off, he was wanting to do things with this woman that he had told me that he wasn't interested in. It was devastating to read that stuff.

Okay... .I just read the rest of your response and see that you understand the lack of desire piece.  It is sad to say, but I might feel more interested (sexually) in a hook-up with someone I have a good connection with but don't know very well than I am feeling with my wife.

Been there, done that. I was definitely more interested in a guy that would talk to me and let me be a fickle woman that got to experience and express a full range of emotions without taking it personally. He would even hold me if I cried, something that my husband doesn't/won't do. It was never really about the sex with the other guy. It was about me wanting and needing somebody to consistently act like I mattered and that I wasn't a complete freak. It was about me wanting and needing somebody to listen to me and validate me. My husband wanted to use the open relationship as an excuse to feed his sexual addiction. I was trying to use it to get some of my unmet needs, like being listened to or valued, met

I find her very attractive... .that isn't it.  It is more what you said about not feeling like having sex with someone who is abusive towards you.  And... .we might have a few days where things go well and I think about the idea of possibly wanting to maybe kiss her and then bam... .another wave hits.

Physical attractiveness is overrated. It is all about the connection for me. It is about feeling safe in the relationship. It is about feeling like the other person cares about you and your feelings. Without that connection, it is very, very difficult to find the desire.

I apprecate all the thoughts here.  It sounds like most couples here are doing the act in one form or another.   It is surprising to me to read that more people in situations like mine aren't having the same issue with a lack of desire from the non-BPD spouse.  How to feel interested in being sexual with someone that reacts to me in non-sexual situations the way she does on a regular basis makes it hard to consider wanting to be in a sexual situation with her.

I have lacked true desire. I put it out of my mind. I treated it like doing the dishes. It wasn't/isn't healthy but that is what it took for me to be able to get things done and keep the peace.

[Notwendy]

I was thinking about the depression aspect here.

Depression will kill any desire, and so will the medications for it.


It is possible that some of the lack of desire is in part, depression from relationship issues.

[ASD]

I apprecate all the thoughts here.  It sounds like most couples here are doing the act in one form or another.   It is surprising to me to read that more people in situations like mine aren't having the same issue with a lack of desire from the non-BPD spouse.  How to feel interested in being sexual with someone that reacts to me in non-sexual situations the way she does on a regular basis makes it hard to consider wanting to be in a sexual situation with her.

I'm the non, and am male.  I feel like a freak because it's me that doesn't want to have sex and she's telling me, as is society, that men are supposed to want to scr3w anything that moves, and I don't.  I don't want to be intimate with her.  How could I?  She says and does hurtful things to me all the time and then expects that I want to be intimate. 

When we are intimate it's demanding too.  I am called selfish, in the act, if I do not initiate oral yet she won't do anything resembling foreplay. 

I am ashamed to say that I prefer to look at certain website and DIY.  Sometimes I do it as a secret way to get back at her or punish her.  Messed up, right?

[LeonVa]

I apprecate all the thoughts here.  It sounds like most couples here are doing the act in one form or another.   It is surprising to me to read that more people in situations like mine aren't having the same issue with a lack of desire from the non-BPD spouse.  How to feel interested in being sexual with someone that reacts to me in non-sexual situations the way she does on a regular basis makes it hard to consider wanting to be in a sexual situation with her.

I'm the non, and am male.  I feel like a freak because it's me that doesn't want to have sex and she's telling me, as is society, that men are supposed to want to scr3w anything that moves, and I don't.  I don't want to be intimate with her.  How could I?  She says and does hurtful things to me all the time and then expects that I want to be intimate.  

When we are intimate it's demanding too.  I am called selfish, in the act, if I do not initiate oral yet she won't do anything resembling foreplay.  

I am ashamed to say that I prefer to look at certain website and DIY.  Sometimes I do it as a secret way to get back at her or punish her.  Messed up, right?

Same situation here.  I told my ex-wife once, if you truly wants me to make you feel 'wanted', you first have to be love-able or at least huggable.   I might want to have sex with anything that moves, but not when it's a grenade and the "move" involves explosion.  

In addition, she always have certain minor episodes a day or two after we had sex.   Instead of getting us closer, it seemed to trigger her and that mades me afraid of having sex with her as I'd eventually have to deal with an episode in a day or two.

I too rather go look at some porn and resolve my physical needs DIY style.   I have a friend who used escort services and he asked me if I'd like to get an escort from time to time, I always resisted as I didn't want to do anything unfaithful during marriage, I really resisted all kinds of temptations, for her, for me, for our marriage.

[Notwendy]

The responses of the guys is very enlightening.

The sad part is that I can see my H feeling just like this. It would not surprise me if he also went to a website to punish me. Porn bothered me because I felt he was holding me to an ideal that a regular human female could not meet, however, just because I didn't like it doesn't mean he can't choose to watch it.

If he did do this to punish me, I really feel he sincerely felt justified to do so, because as the time he rages at me, he feels quite justified to do that too, and that I deserve it, because in that moment in time, he believes I have attacked, berated and rejected him.

It is when he comes out of these dysregulations that he has a glimpse of reality, but he still believes that I have said/done hutrful things to him because saying no, at any time, no matter if we had sex the day before becomes NEVER and a horrible rejection.

For you guys it is real. For my father it was too. I heard enough TMI from my mom to get the picture that things weren't so happy with them in the bedroom. I didn't want to be that wife. I did everything I knew to do to not become that wife.

But to my H, I became that wife- first in his own mind and then, in reality when I couldn't get over the hurt and lost the desire and will to try. Ironic. and very sad.

[ASD]

It's good to know I'm not alone, that there are others with similar situations, I suppose. 

[ASD]

NOTWENDY it is is sad.  Very sad. 

My BPD Wife says she will do anything to be attractive to me, and to please me, and won't reject me.  The problem is her behavior toward me and her actions reject me by killing any vulnerability or intimacy I might feel before it can begin.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Trust.  I think it's all down to trust.  I don't trust her because, like today, she can be all sweet and nice (almost too much) and then something (today it took too long to put gas in her car) ruins her day and she turns on me and the compliments turn to insults at the flip of a switch.  How can I make myself vulnerable and engage in intimacy if that's a possibility with the next breath?

That's the nail right there.

I'm with most of the other guys here. Not much in the desire department and I have normal hormone levels. Even worse is that my SO has made a great deal of progress recovering, yet I feel further from her than ever. Gone are the days of attacking me and threatening to call the police, but the mistrust is still there I guess. I don't feel safe opening up to her. I keep wondering what is wrong with me. Maybe it will get better with time.

She even suggested sex therapy recently. I wasn't really sure how to respond to that. Not that it matters because I doubt there is one anywhere near here that does that. She already drives an hour to see her T for DBT and EMDR. I feel like I can't connect with her anymore and it scares me. Anyone else find a way to overcome this?

[vortex of confusion]

The sad part is that I can see my H feeling just like this. It would not surprise me if he also went to a website to punish me. Porn bothered me because I felt he was holding me to an ideal that a regular human female could not meet, however, just because I didn't like it doesn't mean he can't choose to watch it.

I had a different experience. My husband never made me feel like he was punishing me. I always felt like my husband resorted to porn because I wasn't good enough. I would ask him why he wouldn't wake me up and ask me and he would tell me, "you were sleeping so soundly, I didn't want to bother you." Or, "you were busy and I didn't want to bother you." It seemed to always fall back on the fact that I had done something that made it difficult for him to approach me. I wasn't home. Or, in some cases, he was trying to make my life easier. I never really understood that.

After he lost his job for looking at porn, I talked to his mother about it. I can be pretty ballsy at times. Anyway, when I was talking to his mother about it, she said, "Oh, his dad was the same way. I didn't care because that meant that he left me alone." What I heard (right or wrong) was that there was something wrong with me for actually wanting to have sex with my husband. The underlying tone was that I was the one with the problem.

If he did do this to punish me, I really feel he sincerely felt justified to do so, because as the time he rages at me, he feels quite justified to do that too, and that I deserve it, because in that moment in time, he believes I have attacked, berated and rejected him.

There were times that I wish my husband would have said it was to punish me because that is how it felt. My husband posed it as he was doing me a favor. I could never seem to convince him that I wanted to have sex with him and that he wasn't bothering me. It has been a crazy messed up ride.

I didn't want to be that wife. I did everything I knew to do to not become that wife.

WOW, I have had that thought so many times over the years. I did everything that I could to make sure that I was ready, willing, and able to take care of my husband's wants, needs, desires, fantasies, whatever. My mother was/is a nagging old brood (probably BPD) and she treated my dad horribly. I promised myself that I would do my best to not be like that. I didn't nag. I didn't complain. I cooked his meals. I did all kinds of reading to find ways to get my husband interested. I was under the impression that I was the problem. I had to be the problem. So I set about to fix myself.