It's getting to be that time

[Depression = 72% of members]

So I have written about my partner being willing to look at BPD and DBT after her big test. Well, the test is coming up very soon. The time leading up to this test has been some of the worst times we have had. She is so stressed out. I have tried so hard to not add any stress to her life but if you listened to her you would think that all I do is think of ways to stress her out on purpose.  She has gotten mad a me at least once per day and raged every few days.

But... .she always apologizes and says she knows she has been mean.  Today she apologized for everything that has happened during this time.  I do appreciate the apologies because it lets me know that she is aware of what she is doing. Now more than ever I believe that she is aware of it and wants to do something about it. She has mentioned her meanness and her anger to her new sponsor and has brought it up to me a few times.

Even so, every time she is mean or rages, I think about leaving. I ask myself why would I even want to stay one more day? I guess what has kept me staying is knowing that the day is coming soon, that we will talk about her BPD and treatment options.  It has been 9 years so I think we should at least try this.

Between now and that day is the test and our anniversary vacation. I hope to just have a nice vacation, without talking about anything heavy. We have agreed to that.  When we get back I want to talk to her about getting treatment. I also want to talk to her about money.

I am feeling very nervous about it. I expect some pushback from her. I know things won't change overnight. I know that I don't want to continue to live the way we have. I need to set boundaries around her behavior and her getting treatment. I need to set boundaries around money.

On the one hand, I am hopeful that things can get better. On the other hand, it may not get better enough for me to want to stay and I need to figure out at what point that may be. 

[bluejeans]

So I have written about my partner being willing to look at BPD and DBT after her big test. Well, the test is coming up very soon. The time leading up to this test has been some of the worst times we have had. She is so stressed out. I have tried so hard to not add any stress to her life but if you listened to her you would think that all I do is think of ways to stress her out on purpose.  She has gotten mad a me at least once per day and raged every few days.

But... .she always apologizes and says she knows she has been mean.  Today she apologized for everything that has happened during this time.  I do appreciate the apologies because it lets me know that she is aware of what she is doing. Now more than ever I believe that she is aware of it and wants to do something about it. She has mentioned her meanness and her anger to her new sponsor and has brought it up to me a few times.

Even so, every time she is mean or rages, I think about leaving. I ask myself why would I even want to stay one more day? I guess what has kept me staying is knowing that the day is coming soon, that we will talk about her BPD and treatment options.  It has been 9 years so I think we should at least try this.

Between now and that day is the test and our anniversary vacation. I hope to just have a nice vacation, without talking about anything heavy. We have agreed to that.  When we get back I want to talk to her about getting treatment. I also want to talk to her about money.

I am feeling very nervous about it. I expect some pushback from her. I know things won't change overnight. I know that I don't want to continue to live the way we have. I need to set boundaries around her behavior and her getting treatment. I need to set boundaries around money.

On the one hand, I am hopeful that things can get better. On the other hand, it may not get better enough for me to want to stay and I need to figure out at what point that may be. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Thread]

I need to figure out at what point that may be. 

If someone can answer this that would be great.

Bluejeans:

I am in a similar situation. 5 years, just realized what's going on about 9 months now. He will be getting a profession evaluation with in the next few months (3-4 month wait at the DBT center).

But I'm struggling. I've had a therapist since we've been dating/married, on and off antianxiety and antidepressants, (off before we met, off during a year separation)

Don't know what to do as well. In a bind.

[babyducks]

I would recommend a book.

Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0


It might help define that point.

[Thread]

Thank you babyducks!

[bluejeans]

I will check out that book. Thanks

[bluejeans]

I skimmed the sample pages of the pdf of the book.   I read "You may be someone with a higher-than- normal sense of empathy or compassion". That's me! A lot of what I skimmed made sense. I got the kindle version and will read it tonight.  There are always new things to learn. Tomorrow I meet up with my partner for our vacation. It may be great, it may not. I will try to not make it worse. 

[babyducks]

hey bluejeans,

here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

waiting for your partner to 'be ready' to talk about BPD and DBT and 'be ready' to do something about it seems like a iffy proposition to me.   kinda like putting your eggs all in one basket and then handing the basket to the fox, even if I am sort of mixing up my metaphors.

let me explain why.  I was just over on Fian's thread about his wife finding out he thinks she might be BPD.  There is some good thoughts over there.  One of the re-occurring themes is how hard it is to diagnosis BPD.  Also how difficult it is for therapy to be effective.   DBT is not a magic bullet.

My partner just 'graduated' after nine years of therapy.  Yup.  9.   Which included 2 years of DBT.   Our r/s is much better.   She functions quite well.   However like a diabetic on insulin who reacts to sugar, she is still highly sensitive with extremely intense emotions.    Our relationship is a daily, sometimes hourly series of negotiations.

I have a role in that.   And a responsibility in that.   After all I am 100% responsible for my 50% of the relationship.   I needed to change also. 

In Fian's thread MaybeSo said,

That's why eyes on your own paper is such a good idea. No matter what.  Cause YOU are the only person you can change.  That's why good marriage counseling is not about labeling whose the bigger jerk or who is more sick.   There is a reason why two people 'choose' each other.  We  typically don't pair up with someone who is either way below or way above our own level of emotional intelligence and differentiation. 

Yeah.  True.  Let's face it.   There is a reason why we choose these relationships.   

What I found to be true for me is that when my relationship was in crisis it was easy to focus on the grievous behaviors.   And to engage in a lot of blame.   And a lot of magical thinking.  If only.

What I also found to be true was as I turned my focus an me, and became more calm and centered, less reactive,  less judgmental, the turmoil in my r/s began to ebb.   

I really liked Fjelstad's book because it helped me understand MY role.  And why I felt so compelled to stay in this r/s.   And what I can understand I can modify.

I would encourage you to really manage your expectations when it comes to therapy, DBT and your partner.  I believe you can make a difference in your r/s regardless of what she does or doesn't do.

just my two cents.

'ducks

[Thread]

I like to say it should be 100/100, two wholes joining in a life together.

I understand working on oneself is important, however if you take a broken individual with a less broken one most likely that person who is broken will try to pull the other down.  And typically the other person either becomes pulled down or strengthens to the point of looking for someone who is also strong. My marriage counseling I'm in attempts to pull both individuals up to healthy and strong so that one isn't pulling the other down. Again, yes it takes two, but it also takes two people resolving to get help.  If only one part of the marriage is creating growth and maturing the balance of that relationship will be uneven.

BPD is an emotionally abusive situation.  How can you tell a person who let's say is being physically abused, you need to work on you.  How is that right? Yes, its you need to work on you in order to leave, especially if the abuser refuses help, working on their-self, or even admitting to having a problem. So how does it become work on you and the situation in the BPD relationship will improve? I don't understand that advice.

I often notice my H BPD is great when I'm down, when I'm sick, or hurting in a mental or physical way... .but when I'm strong, working hard, having moments of success, or even just hanging out with my girlfriends and enjoying people other than him, I am confronted with jealousy, rage, irritation, belittling, mocking, put-downs, etc. So I cope, I throw myself into my work, I throw myself into my art... .hanging out with friends increases negative behavior and sad to say I rarely do it to avoid days or weeks of "other issues." - but I think I'm well aware of where its stemming from - his insecurities that I have care and love and happiness outside of him.

I am not trying to argue, but just make sense of when people say "what are you doing wrong?" Or just work on yourself and your marriage will get better.  In my personal opinion and experience it does not get better if the behaviors of the significant other doesn't stop or increases... .my BPD H will throw food down angrily and then say its "because you did it first." He will yell profanity at me and do the same "because you did it first."  I don't understand how me asking him not to splash me while cleaning dishes becomes, "You are trying to show me how to wash a dish. You are calling me retarded. I'm going to kill myself."

How, can I ask is that my fault? Or me, not working on me?

Being part of a BPD relationship or marriage is much more complex then regular ones.

[babyducks]

Hi Hanging. 

Great post.   Thanks for putting that out there.

A couple of thoughts. 

BPD is an emotionally abusive situation.  How can you tell a person who let's say is being physically abused, you need to work on you.  How is that right? Yes, its you need to work on you in order to leave, especially if the abuser refuses help, working on their-self, or even admitting to having a problem. So how does it become work on you and the situation in the BPD relationship will improve? I don't understand that advice.

First, physical abuse is never okay.  The paramount thing with physical abuse is safety.  That's not the situation bluejeans is describing.

You are right in what you posted,  it does take two people resolving to get help.  I completely agree with you.  What my experience has been pretty much mirrors what is written over in the right hand column under take the pledge when I took a leadership role in committing to creating a stable relationship by changing what I could, my reactions, the relationship started to change.   When I worked on myself, to identify and establish boundaries, and then enforce those boundaries through difficult times, eventually my partner learned to stop at those boundaries.

I know this is hard to fathom, especially since we have all heard It's All Your Fault screamed at us in some fashion.   And you are right being in a BPD relationship is more complicated than being in a regular one.  It's hard to hear we should take a look at ourselves and change.   It sounds to much like what we have been accused of over and over.

The other way to look at this is there are two people in the r/s, one who suffers from disordered thinking and emotional dysregulation and one who doesn't.   The person most likely to have the biggest impact on changing the relationship is the one who isn't disordered.

I am not trying to argue, but just make sense of when people say "what are you doing wrong?" Or just work on yourself and your marriage will get better.  In my personal opinion and experience it does not get better if the behaviors of the significant other doesn't stop or increases... .my BPD H will throw food down angrily and then say its "because you did it first." He will yell profanity at me and do the same "because you did it first."  I don't understand how me asking him not to splash me while cleaning dishes becomes, "You are trying to show me how to wash a dish. You are calling me retarded. I'm going to kill myself."

How, can I ask is that my fault? Or me, not working on me?

I am really sorry that you went through that.   What you describe is horrible.  It must have felt awful. 

I don't think you did anything wrong.  and I don't think that anything is you described is your fault.

I do believe that there are tools, skills, methods of communication that can make the situations you describe less violate, and less painful.  That's what I am suggesting bluejeans focus on. 

I believe they work because they have worked for me and my partner.   Maybe it will make more sense if I use an example.   One of the very first boundary I established was no swearing.   My partner didn't like it.   Called me a girl scout.   and a lot of other not too flattering things.   I said yeah maybe I am a girl scout but I won't be cussed at, I actually don't like swearing at all so if you feel the need to curse I will just leave and go for a walk.   She thought that was absolutely stupid and I was the dumbest thing since the beginning of time.   She tested the boundary a couple of times and I enforced it.   Took a while but now she doesn't swear around me at all.   She does still call me a girl scout and I am fine with that.  I think it's a reasonable trade off.  So for me that one worked.

yes that is a simple example.   

everyone's situation is different, everyone's perspective unique.   for me the more I learned, the more I worked at understanding the dynamics of my r/s the more I could see my role in it.

'ducks

[Thread]

@babyducks

It's very well thought out and clearly a successful method. I know your advise was not an accusation or attack.

I'm losing my own hope in my own situation especially when the other half is in denial. Sorry that was a bit intense, weekly episodes and ripples have had a toll on my mind, body and spirit. I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel right now.

It's gets tiring hearing advise not so much from my therapists but my friends and family who don't get what my daily life is... .They say just focus on you. I'm constantly focusing on the way I say things or how I am coming across or which battle to have, or what may set him off that I am on the brink of crazy-ville myself.

I suppose I am defensice when people give the advise of check yourself. Because it does feel like what I hear everyday from my h BPD- everything is my fault

[an0ught]

Hi Hanging,

It's gets tiring hearing advise not so much from my therapists but my friends and family who don't get what my daily life is... .They say just focus on you. I'm constantly focusing on the way I say things or how I am coming across or which battle to have, or what may set him off that I am on the brink of crazy-ville myself.

I suppose I am defensice when people give the advise of check yourself. Because it does feel like what I hear everyday from my h BPD- everything is my fault

to get it out of the way: "focus on yourself". And now for another program:

Judging constantly ourselves based on self imposed, 3rd party imposed or acquired during growing up standards is eroding your self esteem. Do not judge yourself so harshly and as importantly - since it is connected - do not judge others harshly. Adopt a bit a - going with the flow - perceiving - balanced stance.

The way to deal with unwanted 3rd party input: Avoid it (boundaries) or validate it (just understand what they say). Don't judge them, don't argue them. They got their points and that is fine. ... .Their business   What you want is minimize the impact on your thinking (unless they truly speak sense and you will find that out during validation). You also want to sooth your inner critic who is constantly undermining your self esteem - so avoid judgmental positions and b&w thinking in general.

So focus on yourself - don't listen to them   The state you are in is that you are exhausted and depressed   and you are working on improving your situation  . It would be surprising if you would not feel the way you do and on this board there are quite a few others in similar situations. Live in the now, leave judgment of the past and visit detailed planning for the future only when you feel up to it. Focus on the skills you use in the moment you use it. In the end you only affect the reality through what you do in the moment you do it.

Because it does feel like what I hear everyday from my h BPD- everything is my fault

Often these projections give us a good clue what to validate: Fear, guilt etc... .

[Thread]

  Thank you Anought definitely in the hole of depression

[bluejeans]

I am finding the book mentioned above to be very helpful albeit depressing somewhat because I am having to look at my part... .I am definitely a caretaker and I have liked to think of myself as a "good person".  I have always been pleased with myself that I am never mean to my partner, never yell or act out. I think I have only yelled 3 times in 9 years and that was to tell her to stop yelling at me. I haven't said anything that I regret or need to apologize for. Because of this I have thought that she is the only one who needs to change. Despite going to CODA, it really didn't sink in until I started reading this book (still not through it yet - hope there is a happy ending ). I am looking to see how I can set boundaries. Babyducks, your boundary about swearing got me thinking about that - my partner swears at me a lot (in texts and emails mostly) and that would be a good place to start. It also got me thinking that there are a lot of I know there are others that I could set up - I essentially have none. 

My partner is backpedaling about getting a BPD diagnosis - big surprise! She wants me to meet with her T on Thursday so I can listen to a professional. Remember this is the one who says she doesn't have BPD. I am willing to go. I would like some ideas about how to approach this appointment please.

In the meantime, I am going to work on writing up the boundaries that I would like to create so my life is better. Writing it down helps me process it. Any suggestions on this would be greatly appreciated as well.

[babyducks]

hi bluejeans,

welcome back from vacation.  I hope it was enjoyable.   

I think you can be a caretaker and be a good person.  The two are not mutually exclusive.    All of us process information and feelings in some way/shape/form.   It's neither good or bad, it just is.    We just got 'wired' from childhood to be caretakers.   

I think what becomes a problem is when our way of processing, our tendency to care take, to be responsible, to fix gets paired with a person who processes life with huge emotional intensity.   We tend to want to fix the lows, recoil from the rage, and get wounded from the blame.    It's the danged no personal boundaries thing.

I actually kind of like being a caretaker,   especially when I can switch it more to a care giver role and know when to stop.   That's been a bit of a trick to figure out but now I think I mostly have it.

As to the Thursday appointment with her T, a couple of thoughts.   First, do you know what the purpose of the session is?   Other than you listening to a professional?   Is there a topic?   If the entire universe is on the agenda I, myself, would be a little nervous.    Second if this were me I would be very careful how I approached this session.   Her T's job is to advocate and support your partner.   The therapist has minimal obligation to you, as the SO.   

I am wondering how important you feel it is to have a diagnosis that you and your partner can agree on?   I know around here they say concentrate on behaviors and actions and not words and labels.   For me that's proven to be effective.  I don't care so much what we call it as long as we can work on making it better.

You've been around here enough to know that blame, shame, and guilt are like kryptonite for pwBPD.   I would feel remiss if I didn't mention that this could be a blame shifting tactic for your partner.   Some version of "I don't have a problem. you have a problem".   Hopefully her T has enough smarts going on to not allow that to occur in the session.   Still that would be the worst case scenario to prepare for.   I'd suggest you script a response that offers you an exit with dignity if something happens that just boggles your mind.   Something like "I never expected to hear anything like XYZ tonight.   I am going to need time to think about it.   Right now I am going to step out and allow you to finish your session."   And then beat feet out the door.

The best case scenario is that she owns up to treating you like #$% and makes a commitment to bettering the r/s.   And I would carefully script a prepared response to that too.   Again to carefully avoid the blame, shame, guilt, fault thing which gets so ugly so quick.

The likelihood is that it will probably fall in between the two extremes.   I would suggest you think about what rules you would like to establish with the T to keep the session on track.   Do you want to just listen?   Are there topics/subjects that are off the table?   In which case "I prefer to not discuss that tonight." is handy.

I would stay way the #$%^ away from the she said/it's her fault stuff, and try to spin things to "I can see there are problems.   I would like things to be better."   All in your own words of course.

If the topic is all about your partner's diagnosis, then I think you listen with an open mind, ask pertinent questions and reserve judgment.   Not every T has it right, and not every T has it wrong.

As to boundaries, I think better while writing things out than while speaking.   The suggestion I have there is start small and start mild.   Don't immediately dive into the deep end of the pool.  Pick one thing that is important enough that you can be CONSISTENT about it.   That's the key.   Ya gotta be CONSISTENT.   Even when she tries to sneak one by you.     With the swearing thing,  I didn't start with the I will take a walk if you swear at me, I started with, I don't like it when you swear at me, could you not use that language when talking to me.   Did that for a while.  Then did the I really don't want to continue this conversation when you cuss at me. But every time she swore at me I stopped the conversation.   Then I did, I'm really bothered that you are cursing at me I'm going for a walk, I will see you later.   And finally she stopped.   I think if I had immediately gone to taking a walk, it would have backfired.   Maybe that was unique to my situation.   But oddly enough when she stopped she stopped cold and hasn't done it again.

good luck and let us know how you make out okay?

'ducks

[bluejeans]

As to the Thursday appointment with her T, a couple of thoughts.   First, do you know what the purpose of the session is?   Other than you listening to a professional?   Is there a topic?   If the entire universe is on the agenda I, myself, would be a little nervous.    Second if this were me I would be very careful how I approached this session.   Her T's job is to advocate and support your partner.   The therapist has minimal obligation to you, as the SO.   

I am wondering how important you feel it is to have a diagnosis that you and your partner can agree on?   I know around here they say concentrate on behaviors and actions and not words and labels.   For me that's proven to be effective.  I don't care so much what we call it as long as we can work on making it better.

Some version of "I don't have a problem. you have a problem".   

Lots of good insight. Thanks babyducks.

The purpose of me going to her T with her, I believe, is for her to prove me wrong about the fact that I think she has BPD. If you recall, she said that she would seriously look into it and was open to seeing if she could get some help. I was hopeful. Now it looks like she isn't open to it. She said today "how would you like it if I tried to diagnose you, look you up in the DSM manual... .". I responded by saying that it would be alright with me (and it is). Prior to this I had told her that I was on her side, love her, looking for ways to help, found DBT to be a way to help, etc.

I understand concentrating on behaviors and actions - I find it helpful to have the diagnosis. Perhaps it is not needed but my logical mind says - figure out diagnosis, figure out actions to take based on the diagnosis. If she decides to get treatment without the diagnosis that would be fine but it seems to me that she needs to know what she is working on. As I have said before, she has been to a T and P her whole adult life. She works hard on herself. Maybe if she had a better idea on what to work on, it may help.

[bluejeans]

   

I'd suggest you script a response

Since the appointment could go a number of ways, I will write up some responses.That will be a big help to me.

[babyducks]

Hi bluejeans,

I am no expert.   I only know what I have observed from being at this for a while.   And it seems to be that diagnosis in mental health issues is a real crap shoot.   Behaviors can wax and wane.   And people's interpretations of behaviors can vary considerably.   And there is a lot of overlap and comingling of traits.   My partner's official diagnosis is bipolar 1.   She knows all about borderline personality disorder and hates the term.  So I don't use it.   Every so often, very rarely she will just touch on "other issues"  and "family of origin" issues which is the BPD stuff.   I can sense it's very difficult and very upsetting for her to even go near the topic.   

She doesn't know I come here and I don't think I would ever tell her.   My thoughts and my postings here are my intellectual property.   Every so often it feels weird that we aren't on the same page about this but as time has passed I've grown more comfortable with it.   I do look for common ground we can agree on about things that concern our relationship.   Her mental health is her business to care for.   I can support, I can suggest, I can voice an opinion, but ultimately it's her job to care for her health. 

She said today "how would you like it if I tried to diagnose you, look you up in the DSM manual... .".

If that is where she is with this, you might want to think about also scripting a validating response, since you have a little bit of time before Thursday.   Validation doesn't mean you agree with her, only that you acknowledge the emotions she has around any given item.   It's a skill that takes practice.    maybe this one will help

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=221022.0

I understand the logical mind thing.   Many of us have it.   A kind of see the problem, fix the problem approach to life.   That's not how a pwBPD works though,  they filter everything through their very large and very intense emotions.   If I said to my partner I think you have BPD and DBT will help you she would freak out and frankly never forgive me.   Because it implies in some way that she is broken and she has huge issues around shame and negative self talk.

I think you are going to be very well prepared for this session on Thursday.  Chances are if your partner has seen this T for a while the T has to have some clue what's going on with her.    And the T should keep control of the session so it remains productive and positive.   

good luck

'ducks

[babyducks]

Since the appointment could go a number of ways, I will write up some responses.That will be a big help to me.

bluejeans?

How did the appointment turn out?

'ducks

[bluejeans]

I want to write just a little since I am not sure I can adequately articulate what is going on. There has been so much circular reasoning... .I can't make any sense of it all other than it is the same old thing. She lost her job on Monday. We had therapy on Thursday. I would say it did not go well. She rages in therapy. One good thing is that she did get up to take a break for a few minutes so that was progress. Her therapist did say that she does have BPD traits. Later that night she told me she fired her T because of that. I said that she had told her that before... .but I guess she can't remember that. Then she tells me in a text that she is willing to see someone about BPD. But only once and if it turns out she doesn't have it I am to never mention it again ever.  I have someone in mind in town that I will recommend to her.

She raged at me this morning. I left for awhile. I am worn out. I am moving my focus to me, away from her issues. I know that is what this board has been saying all along. I don't know what the future will bring but I will work on myself. I am getting a lot out of the book mentioned previously in this thread.

[bluejeans]

One more thing, it may appear to be progress that she is open to seeing someone regarding BPD but it hasn't happened yet and I expect a lot of back and forth about it. My plan is to email her the contact information (she wants me to find someone) and then let it go. No expectations.

[babyducks]

Shheeesh,  you really have it going on.     

I am glad to hear you got through the therapy session okay.   It makes a great deal of sense that you would be worn out. 

I think you are wise to expect a lot of back and forth about the old therapist, the new therapist and diagnosis.  It appears that she is investing a lot of energy in "proving" you and the various and sundry therapists wrong.   I think for now it's a good choice to let it go, and not provide her a counter part to argue against.  Based on past evidence/past behavior she hasn't really settled on a therapist/diagnosis and it doesn't look like she will.

Hey ! She raged and you left !      Good for you.   As much as it probably stunk to do that I hope you gave yourself credit for changing things and doing things differently.   Way to go.

Hang in there.   Keep posting.   Keep writing, even if you don't share it here.   You are doing the right things.