Validating without reinforcing cognitive distortions?

[rg1976]

I have noticed a trend. I seem to be failing at validating my partner. I would like to improve my validation of her.

Many times throughout the day I am presented with genuine thoughts and feelings by my partner.

I recognize and understand that this is really how she thinks and feels, but it is difficult to validate the feelings without feeling as if I am reinforcing the distorted view of reality on which these thoughts and feelings are based.

This is particularly difficult when I am faced with a thought or feeling which is her interpretation of something she believes about my thoughts or actions.

I will re-read the validation tools. I am wondering if anyone can share some helpful experiences regarding validating a particularly distorted viewpoint.

The only thing that I manage to find helpful would be something like this:

Her: You didn't immediately smile at me as soon as I came home, so that means you are angry. I hate when you are angry at me. Why don't you leave and go find someone else who will make you happy?

Me: Hi. I'm glad you are home. I'm sorry you feel that I am angry. I don't feel angry. You can always ask me how I feel and I will tell you. What can I do to show you I'm not angry?

Her: I don't want to talk about feelings.

Me: Okay.

I go back and forth between thinking I have to behave a certain way in order to not trigger her and being fed up with walking on egg shells and telling her that I am frustrated because I feel as if I am not being considered at all.

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[takingandsending]

Hi rg1976. 

It's true that you do not want to validate the invalid expressions of your partner. So, in your example

Her: You didn't immediately smile at me as soon as I came home, so that means you are angry. I hate when you are angry at me. Why don't you leave and go find someone else who will make you happy?

the invalid is "so that means you are angry ... ."  Definitely don't fall into the trap of apologizing or otherwise invalidating the invalid expression. As you noted, it reinforces the disordered thinking (and it gives your power away).

The valid is that she is upset because you didn't smile at her when she came home. The valid is that she feels hurt that you don't express your like/love of her in an immediate and reassuring way.

While it's natural to contradict her with your truth

Me: Hi. I'm glad you are home.

that is actually invalidating her experience. It is your truth. Better to save that for the last part of SET, otherwise it can be too close to JADEing.

Other than that, your example SET is well laid out. Sometimes, my uBPDw responds with not wanting to delve into her feelings as well, but it is usually when my empathy is not very high. Sometimes, if you don't have the energy for it, it's okay to take a break, just validate her experience. That seems to be the main thing that my wife needs/craves the most. So my small tweak to your example is:

Her: You didn't immediately smile at me as soon as I came home, so that means you are angry. I hate when you are angry at me. Why don't you leave and go find someone else who will make you happy?

Me: Oh, I can see how upset you are. I would be upset, too, if I felt that you didn't acknowledge me when I came home. You are important to me; I care about you. I am happy you are home.

I am learning not to admit fault when I have done nothing. Validate, let her know I care, and let go of it. If my wife wants to persist with her hurt, I let her know my boundaries, let her know I will be back at such and such time and typically leave. It takes about 20-30 minutes for the brain to release the upset.

[ColdEthyl]

Hello,  rg1976! Great question!

I've recently ran into this a few times, and like takingandsending pointed out, mostly it's just how to say something. After the fact, I try to think of ways I could have said differently to validate their feeling, without backing up the flawed logic behind it.

When my H asks me if I agree with him on something I don't... .I struggle between lying to avoid an argument (If I disagree with his view point, it's always a fight because he sees that as invalidating) or just saying nothing. It's really tough when we were both at a place, and his recollection is so different than mine. I'm never sure if he thinks he remembered it that way, or if he reaaaaaaaaally just sees stuff different. :/

" I'm sorry you feel that I am angry." Doesn't really work as validating. I learned that one the hard way, too. Just last night I used that and it went over as well as one might think. H was looking for chili to put on his hot dog, and I had it in a bowl in the microwave. He sits down without any chili and I said to him "Honey, chili is in the microwave if you were looking for it" Then he starts ranting about how dumb of a place that is... .I said well you could have asked me and I would have told you... .it dives into how "stupid" that place is and why... .it's NEVER there! (I've left items like that in the microwave before. He eats dinner a few hours later than us.) And I said "I'm sorry you couldn't find the chili" in an attempt to validate but once I heard the words leave my mouth I knew they were the wrong ones.

/sigh

HOW we say things is so so so important to a pwBPD.

[Holding On]

I definitely struggle with this exact thing. I also struggle with coming up with words that don't sound snarky or sarcastic or patronizing. so while I sit there trying to come up with the right words he's getting angrier and angrier.

[vortex of confusion]

My husband is really good/bad about commenting on my feelings based on my facial expressions.

One of the things that I have done is use a bit of humor. I have been known to say hang on a second and then turn my head a bit or run my hand over my face and come back with the most goofy grin or face I can muster and then say, "Is this better?" Sometimes, it makes him laugh and then he forgets that he thought I was mad/sad/whatever. And there are other times when it irritates him.

Sometimes, I can't find the right words so I resort to a little bit of lighthearted humor that isn't snarky or sarcastic. It is more playful than anything. Another thought is "What would happen if you grabbed her up and kissed and something like would I kiss you like that if I were angry with you?"

Throwing some possible ideas out there for those times when short on words.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My w & I went to a marriage weekend a few years ago.  The one thing that came out of the weekend was you can't express any feelings when you begin a sentence "I feel that you... ."

If she's still somewhat rational I can just reply "I feel that you isn't a feeling"... .A couple times she's even asked me to explain why I said that... .So I explained "I'm feeling unattractive today"  is expressing a feeling, "I feel you don't find me attractive" is a judgement about what I'm thinking.  We've read through the "High Conflict Couple" so she's aware of the concept & need for validation. 

Again, if she still hasn't gotten too emotional she'll try and express it as a feeling... .usually just talking in sentence fragments that leave out I'm the implied subject... .So it's like a high school English class where I'll parse what she said, try to validate any feelings and explicitly point out that I'm not going to validate things that are false, like I don't find her attractive.

[vauet595ej]

I have a little twist on the validating your partner.

My BPD wife was discussing and issue with her daughter and I noticed her daughter was using a cognitive distortion to build her case.

I realized that and expressed my opinion in an attempt to get some clarity around the subject.

My wife was not interested in my opinion and stated "Those are her feelings and I must validate them".

I honestly did not know how to respond so I let it go.

She was so consumed in validating her daughters feelings she was unable to bring in the reality of what her daughter was feeling.

That seems like a dangerous path that will in the end foster cognitive distortions from her daughter. As an a adult I feel as though

I should be the adult and bring clarity to the situation. I'm not sure how to approach this one. Her daughter shows no signs of BPD but in this

example she was letting her emotions overrule reality.

[believer55]

My uhwBPD is a classic for coming home and letting me know I have not greeted him the way he wanted and therefore I have done something to let him down. My headspace is such that I just can't pander to him anymore. It is almost nightly - even last night when I had excruciating pain in my shoulder while cooking dinner for the six of us all he could focus on was asking me if I missed him. I just threw the SET out the window and told him how selfish he was. As you can imagine I am now set for trouble... .

[ColdEthyl]

My uhwBPD is a classic for coming home and letting me know I have not greeted him the way he wanted and therefore I have done something to let him down. My headspace is such that I just can't pander to him anymore. It is almost nightly - even last night when I had excruciating pain in my shoulder while cooking dinner for the six of us all he could focus on was asking me if I missed him. I just threw the SET out the window and told him how selfish he was. As you can imagine I am now set for trouble... .

There was a period of time where my H was upset that when I came home for work I didn't drop everything, sit next to him and talk... .with a smile on my face. If I came home upset from a bad day, he was mad. If I came home and got out of my work clothes right away, he would get mad. If I started dinner or chores right when I got in... .he was mad.

After 6 months or so of that we came to an agreement. He gets 15 minutes. I come home... .smile on my face and sit with him. Then, I go do what I need to do.

My H explained when he wasn't dysregulating that he misses me all day, so when I come home he just wants my attention. My coming in, whirlwinding around, complaining about work affect him badly. I understand that... .the way pwBPD are... .negative emotions wash over them easily.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

After 6 months or so of that we came to an agreement. He gets 15 minutes. I come home... .smile on my face and sit with him. Then, I go do what I need to do.

This is still a work in progress for me... .Back in MC she expressed she needs time to "connect" when I get home, so most days I make sure I chat with her first thing when I get home.

But now she escalates it.  I'm only doing it because she asked, not because I want to and of course "all couples" connect when they get home, so since I don't want to on my own then we must figure out what's wrong... .

It's some sort of BPD Transitive Property at work... .

[ColdEthyl]

It is. Think of it like this... .they have abandonment issues. While we are gone... .I bet they often sit there and think about what we are doing all day. Sometimes, they probably sit there thinking we are talking to other people and just not caring about them at all. So, when we come home, they want us to fawn over them. Think of it like a bucket. While we are gone... .their bucket gets less and less full. When we get home, they want us to fill it up again.

[takingandsending]

IsIt,

I get a similar response from my uBPDw. I think though, ColdEthyl points out something I missed. It took her and her husband 6 months to iron this out. I tend to give up in frustration long before that point. If it's consistent, and you can ride out the bumps of dysregulation at the outset, I am hearing that this can get better.

I think I will revisit my approach and give this a try. Problem for me is that I have two young children who are really excited to see me and then my one adult child wife who is not really excited to see me but has a lot of unloading or venting she needs to do (based on feelings=facts). I have a tough time telling my little kids to wait so that I can help my adult kid get her more pressing needs met. Admittedly, their expressions of joy to see me fill me up more than my wife's expressions of unhappiness. But I am glad to hear that this might actually get better. It is one of the worst times of day for both my wife and me.

[ColdEthyl]

IsIt,

I get a similar response from my uBPDw. I think though, ColdEthyl points out something I missed. It took her and her husband 6 months to iron this out. I tend to give up in frustration long before that point. If it's consistent, and you can ride out the bumps of dysregulation at the outset, I am hearing that this can get better.

I think I will revisit my approach and give this a try. Problem for me is that I have two young children who are really excited to see me and then my one adult child wife who is not really excited to see me but has a lot of unloading or venting she needs to do (based on feelings=facts). I have a tough time telling my little kids to wait so that I can help my adult kid get her more pressing needs met. Admittedly, their expressions of joy to see me fill me up more than my wife's expressions of unhappiness. But I am glad to hear that this might actually get better. It is one of the worst times of day for both my wife and me.

*nods* Things can absolutely get better. It took me a few months to get him to talk about why he was acting like that... .plus I was still learning about BPD at the time. I have children, too so I know what you mean about it being hard. My H and I compromised. He get his 15 minutes, then I attend to the children if they need me. When I walk in the door if my children are excited or have something they want to share... .I stop and listen, remark on what they have said, and if they want to go over something or anything, I tell them give me 30 minutes. That way, I can give my H the time he needs, get undressed and prepare for what the kiddos want.

[Stalwart]

I think the trick that I’ve found works best is the understanding that these same “fears of being angry” are the demons that plaque my wife’s insecurities on a constant basis. I truly believe that inside there is a deep seated disbelieve that she could be loved and so she is always in conflict with that self-loathing and terror that it brings her.

Knowing that gives me the opportunity to be proactive on these issues and it saves the dysregulation that occurs when you aren’t. Yup, when she gets home I gather the dogs and we all go greet her, the dogs tails are all wagging and I tell her that I’m glad she’s there – I’ve missed her. It takes two minutes to step up and recognize someone who really truly needs that recognition when she enters the home for the night because it will already be in her mind and working on her fears about what the evening will be. No better way to offset those same fears then a greeting, a hug and kiss and maybe even a “Do you want a specialty coffee?” It’s about having someone believing that when you are talking to them they are the only thing in your focus and world at that moment, that you’re there engaged in a positive way and truly happy she is there.

My wife wakes every morning absolutely consumed with the fear of the day. Her first words if I don’t way lay the situation is “Are you mad?” or “Did I do something wrong – you’re mad”. It’s just her nature to assume that it will be difficult. Again I’ve learned to be proactive and every morning I roll over, kiss her forehead and say “I love you babe” It sets the tone for her inner thinking as she wakes up and heads off the demons of self-doubt or self-blame or that it’s going to be a bad day because of the initial anxiety she wakes to.

Two of the most very simple things to accomplish that makes such a huge difference in her perception and quells her fears. Time well spent and I’ve come to really enjoy the routine knowing just how much it’s accomplished in helping the situation.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have a little twist on the validating your partner.

My BPD wife was discussing and issue with her daughter and I noticed her daughter was using a cognitive distortion to build her case.

I realized that and expressed my opinion in an attempt to get some clarity around the subject.

My wife was not interested in my opinion and stated "Those are her feelings and I must validate them".

I honestly did not know how to respond so I let it go.

She was so consumed in validating her daughters feelings she was unable to bring in the reality of what her daughter was feeling.

That seems like a dangerous path that will in the end foster cognitive distortions from her daughter. As an a adult I feel as though

I should be the adult and bring clarity to the situation. I'm not sure how to approach this one. Her daughter shows no signs of BPD but in this

example she was letting her emotions overrule reality.

My expwuN/BPD and his exw with uBPD did this to their D9-16.  In my opinion, they have unfortunately now created a budding narcissist of her. 

Amount other things... .

She seriously would invent "medicines" by mixing chemicals and ingredients... .at 12!  And dad would swallow them in her "game" and he would praise her for her efforts!  I told him it was necessary and appropriate that he teach her real life skills about consumption of medicines, herbs, chemicals and not treat real life like some 3yr olds tea party of drinking air!  I tried to instill this in her... .told her that she needs to always allow the person consuming... .awareness of ingredients... .and that was just the beginning of my chat.  He flipped out and consoled her for being so loving to him to concoct something!  (She wasn't even upset by my talk, but tried to listen and respect it... .but he triangulated... .and "rescued her" from me always)

Any feedback I gave him re this... .led to him verbally attacking me and him overcompensating by over "validating" her even MORE!

Since he was predominantly with NPD traits vs BPD traits, overly enmeshed with D, saw her as the all good extension of himself... .any criticism or perceived criticism to her... .was heard by him as a severe narcissistic injury.

It drove me Insane!