We are still going to the doctor, and still getting that pill. Even if it's mental ED

[Depression = 72% of members]

VoC,

When I was at my lowest point a couple of years ago, I talked to some guys online. They would give me ideas. I know they must have thought that I was lying or exaggerating or something because I had tried everything that they suggested and then some. I will never forget some of the guys' responses. One or two of them were, "I'd give a left nut to have a wife like you." I don't know how many guys said that my husband must be gay to get the attention that I give him and STILL not act interested or be able to perform.

Yep I know it. I've heard the same things before also.

This sounds to me like your H has a problem with direct requests and also expressing his sexual feelings- like he has some shame associated with them. His avoiding the topic to me is because he is feeling uncomfortable- but that is his issue not about you.

When we talked he said sex has always been weird and awkward for him. He talked about how his ex-wife was aggressive and he liked it because he isn't aggressive. I think... .though... .he's not thinking about the fact he was married to his first wife in his 20s. So, perhaps now... .that aggressiveness is just making him nervous.

And that's what I told him. I try to be aggressive... .I try sexting... .I try things he says but this is how he reacts. With fear. I mean it... .in person he sometimes looks like I'm going to hurt him.

[ColdEthyl]

VoC,

When I was at my lowest point a couple of years ago, I talked to some guys online. They would give me ideas. I know they must have thought that I was lying or exaggerating or something because I had tried everything that they suggested and then some. I will never forget some of the guys' responses. One or two of them were, "I'd give a left nut to have a wife like you." I don't know how many guys said that my husband must be gay to get the attention that I give him and STILL not act interested or be able to perform.

Yep I know it. I've heard the same things before also.

This sounds to me like your H has a problem with direct requests and also expressing his sexual feelings- like he has some shame associated with them. His avoiding the topic to me is because he is feeling uncomfortable- but that is his issue not about you.

When we talked he said sex has always been weird and awkward for him. He talked about how his ex-wife was aggressive and he liked it because he isn't aggressive. I think... .though... .he's not thinking about the fact he was married to his first wife in his 20s. So, perhaps now... .that aggressiveness is just making him nervous.

And that's what I told him. I try to be aggressive... .I try sexting... .I try things he says but this is how he reacts. With fear. I mean it... .in person he sometimes looks like I'm going to hurt him.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[an0ught]

Just to help me better to understand here

... .that aggressiveness is just making him nervous.

And that's what I told him. I try to be aggressive... .

That you are trying to be aggressive or you validated that he is anxious?

[ColdEthyl]

Just to help me better to understand here

... .that aggressiveness is just making him nervous.

And that's what I told him. I try to be aggressive... .

That you are trying to be aggressive or you validated that he is anxious?

When we had our big talk, I told him when I try to be aggressive/sext/whatever he tells me he needs me to do, he reacts anxiously. He said he never has done that, give him an example. I provided one, then that's when he said sex has always been weird for him.

[an0ught]

Hmm,

fear is a big thing for pwBPD and also for ED. He got that problem squared. Have you tried validating insecurity and sharing your own insecurities?

[ColdEthyl]

Yep for years. This last talk was the first time he expressed his fears, which is a good step in the right direction, though.

[Ceruleanblue]

Glad to have seen this thread. My BPDh has had low testosterone for years, and when we first met he told me about his ED. It's funny, he told me all about his ED, but he hid his anger and crazy mood swings, go figure. Now that he's diagnosed, I'm thinking there is a correlation between the ED and his BPD? Everything is seen through the BPD filter it seems.

When we were separated, but working on getting back together, he dropped the bomb that he wanted to get into BDSM, have sex with an Asian woman, and have a threesome. I researched and we did some BDSM together, but he quickly lost interest. He confessed that while we were separated, he sought out the girl he'd dated before me(he'd never told me she was a dominatrix), and he slept with her several times. I will not do a threesome, and he says he's over his Asian fetish, but who knows. One thing I do know is that he gets off by hurting me during sex, so I was not shocked about the BDSM as much as the other stuff. I always knew he could get off when he hurt me, so I stopped letting him know when he was hurting me.

His ED has never been a huge problem, but I think his mindset sure is. I don't enjoy being hurt during sex, and he with holds sex because he's angry. He's also regularly pretty sexually selfish. I'd never encountered that before. As soon as we started having sex, I noticed it, and addressed it with him. He went on and on about how much he'd wanted to pleasure his ex, and he had books and CD's still in his bedroom, so I was baffled as to why he didn't care like that with me? I've come to the conclusion that he's just sexually selfish at times, as he's pretty narcissistic, and he's probably resentful that I won't let him hurt me during sex(or let on that he sometimes still does)... .

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one dealing with BPD, and ED.

[ColdEthyl]

Wow blue, you sure have had a lot to deal with  I'm glad mine isn't out of anger... .but it is fear.

I came home to him have drank a pint of whiskey, and still had a little. He talked about everything under the sun for about an hour, and passed out. I am eating s'mores pop tarts and watching scrubs on Netflix.

I need to figure out how to handle his amount of anxiety and fear.

[Panda39]

Is your husband taking any medications that could cause ED as a side effect?  This could be part of the problem, his age could be a factor, alcohol can be a factor... .I guess what I'm trying to say is be sure to have possible physical issues/causes also checked don't just assume that his issue is just psychological it could be something else or it could be a combination of things.

Viagra works very nicely for my SO... .he has a vision side effect everything takes on a pink cast for a little while. 

[Notwendy]

Cold Ethyl. I am so sorry this is what you came home to. 

I know this would feel hurtful, but it isn't about you, but his fears.

[vortex of confusion]

Viagra works very nicely for my SO... .he has a vision side effect everything takes on a pink cast for a little while. 

I have a question. I don't know if you or anybody else will have an answer. Viagra makes their equipment work without fail. Does that somehow impact the ability for the partner to get more pleasure?

The equipment working isn't going to remove the selfishness and lack of attention to me. I am speaking from experience as when we first experimented with opening up our marriage, his equipment started working again. Almost out of the blue. We did it 7 times one day and almost every time was pretty much wham, bam, without the thank you ma'am. I won't lie. It was a lot of fun. The problem was that I didn't get any release any of those times because every time was so quick. I am wondering if I should start a new thread about that. Not sure how to even broach the topic.

[Notwendy]

There are studies that have shown that Viagra helps with premature ejaculation, but I don't know how much the mental/emotional/motivation factors in the men made a difference. Viagra doesn't change emotions and personality traits. Someone only focusing on himself is going to do that with or without Viagra.

As we all know, it isn't just about equipment, otherwise we would all be happy with something mechanical: works all the time, any time. Sexual satisfaction is also emotional. I think a loving healthy mutual physical relationship would remain that way, even during times of equipment malfunction. Viagra can help the equipment, and it can also restore confidence/reduce anxiety, but I don't think it changes personality traits.

[Surg_Bear]

A guy that is being cuckolded is being cheated on. There for a while he could only get excited if I went and saw another guy and then came home and told him about it.

My husband doesn't want it to be pretend role playing. It only works if it is real. Role playing that he is a repair guy and stuff like that doesn't work.

One year, I sent him off to take the kids to grandma's house. We set up the scenario so that when he got back he would knock on the door like he was there to fix something. I greeted him dressed all sexy and did the whole propositioning thing. My attempts fell flat and nothing worked. Like Jessica84 said earlier in the thread, you end up sitting there checking emails in a sexy outfit. I don't feel like it is lack of effort on my part. If anybody is not taking things seriously, it is my husband.

Hmm... .DW is always making suggestions we go to Vegas, hire a hooker and have a threesome, and makes a hobby out of selecting women from town, mothers of classmates of our kids, etc, that I could "do". I've always taken this as somewhat bad-taste humor from her, but your post makes me wonder... .

Anyway, as a 50-ish male, I have to say that your H should absolutely NOT be taking care of his needs himself. Even though he may not realize, this will totally screw up how his brain processes arousal and condition him to be aroused from Internet sources rather than his spouse. One way or another he needs to stop that activity. One suggestion might be that you make an agreement that you participate in that side of his romantic life, initially, then transition over time to ultimately the external stimuli are removed? Don't know enough about your situation to know if this is practical (his issues do seem to be all mental in nature if the "master of his own domain" thing is working for him).

Doesn't this statement assume that vaginal penetration is the ONLY sexual behavior "permissible" for a man to have an orgasm?

If most women can't have an orgasm with vaginal penetration, they aren't considered broken.  Why is a man?

Masturbation is THE sex a man has been doing since his awakening.

Masturbation is the sex a man has been doing since his awakening.

Actually, masturbation starts in very young childhood- years before the awakening- in most human beings.

I find advice that suggests this activity be stopped in favor of another activity is short sighted.  A person's masturbation is that person's PRIMARY sexual behavior.  Sexual maturity and health comes when other activities, involving another human being are added, and the sex acts are shared.

Can you be present during his masturbation?

Can you share in his masturbation?

Could you consider that intimate enough to be "sex" ? 

If you could truly be present in his masturbation, and he yours, and there was no vaginal penetration, would that be sex?

A person with BPD is emotionally immature, and so therefore, MANY with BPD are sexually immature.  The most immature sexual behavior is masturbation- we all do it even before there is the capacity to orgasm (The awakening).  We are kidding ourselves if we think we will EVER have an emotionally mature relationship with our SO wBPD, right?  It is not going to happen.  We get what we get.  Maybe it is the same with sex?

Maybe, mutual masturbation is the best we get?

I don't know, but I do know that it is normal and healthy to masturbate.  To say that a man being unable to function within the definition of sex being vaginal penetration until orgasm because he masturbates, seems to miss the fact that healthy sex is BOTH.  Vaginal penetration cannot and should not be viewed as the mature "replacement" for masturbation in a sexual healthy adult.  Vaginal penetration can and should be viewed as one of many mature "additions" to masturbation in a sexual healthy adult.

I think that most of us believe, mistakenly, that vaginal penetration is the ONLY healthy sexual activity for adults.  That is just not true.

Can we do more to share in our partner's whole spectrum of sexual activity?  What would that look like?  Could we consider it "sex"?  Physical intimacy? Rewarding / Fulfilling?

I do not live in a sexually healthy relationship.  I am trying to stay in a monogamous heterosexual relationship that views sex as forbidden.  Talking about sex is forbidden.  My masturbation, even, is forbidden.  I would welcome company in my masturbation activity, and would easily consider that more sexually rewarding and intimate than doing it alone.

What we see as "withholding" may not be withholding at all- that behavior we wish would be shared- may not be a comfortable activity that our partner is even capable of.  Sex (vaginal penetration until male orgasm) is not part of a 3 year old's experience, and emotionally, our BPD's internal emotional lives seem to be fixated at toddlers level.  They may just not be capable of enjoying and fully participating in this activity, as a emotionally mature, giving / considerate / thoughtful adult.

When a person with BPD does engage in mature sexual activity (vaginal penetration until male orgasm), they are still emotionally stunted and not experiencing the behavior as we "non's" experience it.  It is a behavior being used by an emotional 3 year old, to get something an emotional 3 year old wants (avoid abandonment, to control the partner, etc).  We cannot expect that the BPD turns off during sex.  It just can't.

I don't know... .

I just wish I was married to some of the women who are posting here, I guess.

Take care of yourself today-

Surg_Bear

[Notwendy]

Surg- bear brings up an interesting point- emotional maturity and sex. If an adult was to have sex with a young child, it would be considered abuse. I think we all know that when children are sexually abused, they have emotional trauma, shame,guilt, and other issues. Some pwBPD may have been abused sexually as children.

If someone with BPD has arrested development, is their experience of sex somewhat traumatic to them? They may like the physical aspect, but where are they emotionally? They may understand that sex is something that can attract a partner, but once in a relationship, how do the emotions play in? I can recall when my parents told me the facts of life when I was a kid. My girl friends and I thought that was the grossest thing ever. Boys were gross! Do our partners feel that way sometimes- yet they also are in adult bodies with mature sex drives- which may lead to a lot of ambivalent and confusing emotions.

In my 12 step group, we discuss the concept of religious abuse ( as separate from religion) and members have been subjected to this. It is when abusive families use religion abusively. Many religions have something to say about sex and masturbation. Many consider sex to be desirable in a marriage, but still can have different ideas about it. In religious abuse, children could be subjected to twisted interpretations of this and shamed for their sexual desires, masturbation, their bodies, told sex is dirty or bad. Many of us, and also our partners, can carry these issues into relationships.

Although ED can be an issue on it's own, in a healthy relationship it may not have as much of an impact as it does when there are problems in the relationship.

[an0ught]

Let me throw in another angle while we are talking about emotional maturity and boundaries.

We get very deeply involved in our partners - more than it is healthy. Our relationship is enmeshed with few boundaries. Some of us are even pushed into the role of real care-takers and parents.

How can there be sexual tension and spark if there are no boundaries? If there is no respect?

I remember sexuality in my relationship shifted a lot when boundaries came back.

[Notwendy]

Confidence too.

With boundaries I am less affected by other's opinions and feelings. I can tell when they are not about me, and so I do not take them as personally. With better boundaries, my H feels more comfortable around me too.

Sex could also bring up fear of engulfment. My H's family ( and mine ) are pretty enmeshed and I think dysfunctional couples are too. The push pull dynamics can be at play with both desire for, and repulsion, with sex.

Caretaking affects desire. My H wanted a lot of caretaking- cooking for him, doing the things his mother did for him, but when I did, he tended to be mean to me. He may like what his mother did for him, but he doesn't want to have sex with his mother. I also didn't feel attraction to someone who I was treating like a kid. Co-dependency helped me see the distinction between caretaking and simply doing nice things for someone. They can even be the same action- like cooking dinner, but where before I was doing it so he would not be angry ( co-dependency) I can do it without that fear. I can also say if I don't want to cook if I don't and we can order in or go out. ( as budget allows) Before I would fear saying that.

Boundaries have made a difference in our overall relationship, so hopefully it will make a difference in intimacy as well. This has been some recent progress and so it needs more time to tell.

[vortex of confusion]

Doesn't this statement assume that vaginal penetration is the ONLY sexual behavior "permissible" for a man to have an orgasm?

I am not sure what statement it is that is being referenced. In my situation, I have tried all sorts of different situations and scenarios. I can pleasure my husband to orgasm in a lot of different ways. It isn't about what is or isn't permissible. I want to have a shared sexual experience with my husband where my needs are given as much consideration as his needs. I have tried all sorts of things.

If most women can't have an orgasm with vaginal penetration, they aren't considered broken.  Why is a man?

I am not sure how this is relevant. If a woman couldn't get excited by her husband no matter what he did, then there is a problem. It isn't about penetration or not. It is about the sum total of a situation where a wife has tried all sorts of things to help her husband. In the process, her needs have been ignored. I understand that it is ultimately her fault because she didn't speak up correctly or didn't have proper boundaries or didn't do something correctly.

Actually, masturbation starts in very young childhood- years before the awakening- in most human beings.

And if a man has spent his entire life being told that masturbation is evil and sinful, then he is going to feel a lot of guilt and shame. If a man is routinely told that he must confess when he masturbates, that isn't going to lead to good things when he is an adult. No matter how natural and normal I think masturbation is, that isn't going to take away the shame that my husband feels about masturbation. My husband cannot participate in mutual masturbation. We tried it a few times and he was horrified. I could tell by the look on his face that he was completely disgusted by it.

I find advice that suggests this activity be stopped in favor of another activity is short sighted.  A person's masturbation is that person's PRIMARY sexual behavior.  Sexual maturity and health comes when other activities, involving another human being are added, and the sex acts are shared.

Nope, it isn't short sighted in my opinion. If masturbation is a person's primary sexual behavior, then why get in a relationship at all. Why not just go f**k yourself regularly and forget that anybody else exists? I never asked my husband to stop masturbating all together. All I asked was for him to slow down or knock it off long enough for the two of us to have sex that is mutually satisfying. He couldn't/wouldn't have sex with me because he had already taken care of things for himself. Is it selfish to occasionally want to have enjoyable sex with your spouse?

To say that a man being unable to function within the definition of sex being vaginal penetration until orgasm because he masturbates, seems to miss the fact that healthy sex is BOTH.  Vaginal penetration cannot and should not be viewed as the mature "replacement" for masturbation in a sexual healthy adult.  Vaginal penetration can and should be viewed as one of many mature "additions" to masturbation in a sexual healthy adult.

How would you view masturbating in the bathroom at work because you can't control your urges? How would you view masturbating every chance you got? How would you view choosing to masturbate instead of being sexual with a spouse. I am not talking about JUST penetrative sex either. I am talking about sexual situations where my husband realizes that I exist and seems to have some level of concern/care/interest in my level of satisfaction.

Can we do more to share in our partner's whole spectrum of sexual activity?  What would that look like?  Could we consider it "sex"?  Physical intimacy? Rewarding / Fulfilling?

I am not sure that I could do any more to share in his spectrum of sexual activity/interests. We tried an open marriage. He said he was bisexual and wanted to try things with a man but was afraid. Guess what, I arranged a threesome for him so he could try things out with another guy with me there. He was too afraid to do it otherwise. I get really, really exhausted with the claim that somehow I am not doing something right. After all, if a woman has done everything "right", surely the man will respond.

[Notwendy]

Vortex, I think you have done as much as anyone could do to have a good physical relationship with your H. I think at some level he has to know this, and appreciate the effort. I hope this gets better for you.

I think it is tragic for young people to be shamed for what happens physiologically with their bodies at puberty. Puberty prepares them for reproduction long before they are able to be functioning adults in society. We all know that sex isn't just for that, but biology dictates their hormones exactly for that. As much as I value religion for giving us an ethical basis for life- we aren't animals and we should hopefully not behave like animals in heat- going too far and making kids feel that the normal function of their bodies is evil and sinful is setting them up for a lot of self shame.

There is a place for shame- we could feel shame if we hurt someone or stole something, but the deep shameful self hatred that is learned in some dysfunctional families is a serious issue.

[SweetCharlotte]

I'm sorry I have only read the first two pages and most recent two posts, but they're all fascinating.

I'm one of the 20-25% of women who climax regularly from intercourse alone. Not that it is a great thing—it has made me more likely to become obsessed and/or bonded with partners who aren't good for me.

My uBPDh still doesn't reach orgasm more than half the time. It doesn't make me feel unattractive because he usually has no problem with initial arousal. The train gets lost in the tunnel. Taking some Viagra (he chews off the edge of a pill because it's so expensive) increases his chances of finishing but it's not a guarantee.

I tell him to "surrender" as a joke, because the inability to climax is like his refusal to give in to me totally. He denies me that extra intimacy of seeing him lose control. Often he tells me that it is not so important that he finish each time, but when he doesn't, it means that he will want to try again the very next time we are alone. If I'm satisfied, I feel like "I'm good" for another day or two. So it becomes a way of both prolonging and postponing intimacy.

[vortex of confusion]

There is a place for shame- we could feel shame if we hurt someone or stole something, but the deep shameful self hatred that is learned in some dysfunctional families is a serious issue.

Until recently, my husband didn't even realize that there was dysfunctional stuff going on in his family. He grew up going to private schools and his family was well respected in the community. His parents went to all of his games and, from the outside, looked perfectly normal.

I was sexually abused as a child and my husband wasn't. The difference is that I was never shamed about sex and he was. He was beat over the head with the idea that masturbation is a sin. He was beat over the head with the idea that every sperm is sacred. A man receiving a BJ is considered an mortal sin in his religion. In his religion, the only place that a man's seed belongs is inside his wife's nether regions. I have done extensive reading about his religion's views on sex. When he wanted to strictly follow his religion, I respected that and did not encourage him to do anything that would violate that. When he decided to abandon his religion and wanted to experiment more, I supported that as well. I have know for a long time that nothing that I do will erase that deep seated shame and self hatred that he has for himself.

I brought up the idea of the blue pill and he isn't interested in it. He doesn't think that it would help because it won't address the underlying psychological issues that he says he has. It would probably give him more reasons to feel bad/guilty/shame/etc.

[Jessica84]

I never bring up the blue pill. It scares me. His father died at a young age of a heart attack, and he is already past that age of when his father passed. I've heard of the effects these can have on the heart and worry he is already one cheeseburger away from one himself. I'd rather deal with a sexually-frustrated man... .than bury a satisfied one. :'(

[Panda39]

Another issue at play could be fear that the Viagra won't work.

[ColdEthyl]

@Surg_Bear

You bring up really good points... .points I did not consider until after my H opened up to me. He is emotionally immature and traumatized by his childhood. For me, the first few years of our sex life had no issues at all, it wasn't until things got 'serious' for us, that's when the issues arose.

Taking that into consideration, for awhile I thought it was me. He lost interest... .the excitement for him was gone, but it wasn't for me. I missed my husband, I still do.

Now, I can see it's fear and anxiety. He's afraid of not living up to some standard he set for himself. In his mind... .like everything else in his life... .he expects things to go A... .B... .C. If they don't, it's chaos for him. Simple things like not finding a certain frying pan in the cupboard where he expects it to be will throw him off... .how could I expect something like this not to affect him poorly?

In reference to the masturbation reference... .that's the part that has bothered him the most. He cannot finish by himself, either. Now... .the same stuff is still going through his head IE he's thinking wow... .I better finish... .it's not going to happen etc etc So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy... .something our pwBPD are really really good at.

What I am hoping is with the pill, we can take the fear of not finishing/staying hard off of the table. If we can do that... .maybe we can work on the rest of it together.

My husband is not a selfish lover. I am lucky in that aspect. I am sorry, VoC that it is like that for you. If I ask, my H will take care of me sexually. But I miss the intimacy from before. Maybe it was never real... .maybe it will not come back. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If we try everything and he can't do it... .well then he can't do it. I won't expect him to do something he physically can't do, but I do expect him to try to work on things with me. So far, he's doing that.

He apologized last night about Friday. He said my sexting made him nervous... .he thought he would like it but he doesn't. He put pressure on himself to perform, and it just spiraled. I told him he never has to do anything that makes him uncomfortable. We will work on things slowly together, and let's not worry about it until after the doctor's visit.

The fact he's talking to me about this makes me feel 1,000 times better.

[ColdEthyl]

Another issue at play could be fear that the Viagra won't work.

Correct, Panda. His anxiety and fear are the biggest players in this, and those guys will tell you anything to freak you out.

[ColdEthyl]

Quick update... .we have an appointment this Thursday. It's probably just going to be an intake appointment, and it will take them 6-8 weeks or so after that to get the auths from Indian Health and get his testing and such done, but it's a start. I hope like hell he doesn't try to flake out.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .