Re: So... she sends me a clarification email..while I'm asleep

[vortex of confusion]

"Honey, can you take out the trash"  Request

"Take out the trash"  :)ictatorial.  Especially when you bring all the other elements into it.  "I told you to do this and you didn't... .you love your mother more... .etc etc" The more "other" stuff that goes along with it... .can either lead to it being more dictatorial... .or less.

Would it be more accurate to say that it is more about HOW she is saying it than what she is saying? I know me. If somebody tried to tell me that I needed to say things a certain way or I would be ignored, I would say exactly what they wanted me to say but I would load it with the utmost contempt. I would say, "Honey, can you take out the trash" but I would do it in such a way that it was dictatorial AND pretty much rendered you incapable of disputing it. I make a conscious effort not to do that kind of thing now but I most certainly did it in the past. I think that is what I am trying to communicate. Be really careful here because you can insist that she puts things in the form of a request but that isn't going to change her underlying attitude and it isn't going to change yours either. That is a cycle that my husband and I were in for a while.

I'm not interested in feeding the cycle of her thinking that this is the way to get me to do things.  I also don't want to purposely not do something... .just because she didn't ask right... .(I still don't get PA... .but I think that is a bit PA)

The way that you are describing some things does lead me to think that you are being a bit PA. I am not sure how to explain it though. Aren't you purposely NOT doing things because she didn't ask right?

(question)  If I was planning to mop the floor... .and she dictated to me that I mop it... .so... .I decided to go work on a truck to "show her"... .I think this is PA behavior.  Am I correct.

PA can be even more subtle than that I think. This example is clearly PA.

If I have my day thought out... .a general plan... .and she dictates that I do something... .and I go on about my day and do some things on her dictate plan because I had already thought about them... .I'm not seeing that as PA.

When thinking about your general plan for the day, do you make that plan before or after consulting with her? You are doing the things on her list because you want to do them/had planned to do them. Am I understanding it correctly when I say that you aren't taking her into consideration at all when you decide whether or not to follow her list? If it is on the list, do you find yourself more or less apt to do it?

I think most of my issue is the values thing.  In MC we talked about what traits we each valued... .values.  Her big one was loyalty (no screwing around with other women)... .mine was kindness... .compassion was number 2.

Kindness is something that is at the top of my list as well. I really do get where you are coming from as I have had the thought, "How difficult is it to NOT be an azz?" Even if I hate somebody, I am going to treat them with kindness. I have not been able to find a way to explain kindness to my husband in a way that he gets it. His version of kindness and mine seem to be very different. Could there be a difference in how the two of you define kind? You have kind as your value. She doesn't. You can't make her value kindness. In my opinion, a person that values kindness is going to approach things very differently than somebody that doesn't see that as a high priority.

This is one of many reasons why I think language matters... .communications style matters.

Have the two of you evaluated your differences in communication styles? In your professional life, what do you do to get two people with different communication styles to communicate better?

I look at it this way... .If she is banging her finger with a hammer... .and then trying to blame me for her finger hurting... .I'm not going to accuse her back of anything... .but I'm not going to pick up blame for finger hurt.  I can try to express compassion for her and her hurt... .rather than blame.  But I'm also not going to try and alter my behavior... .in hopes that she stops banging her finger with a hammer.

Aren't you doing a bit of the same? It isn't about blaming. She isn't the best at communicating. If you want her to communicate better and more clearly, then take the lead. Make sure that you are clear as to whether or not you agree or disagree with her. Are you acknowledging that you even heard what she said? If she sends you a to do list, how would feel about responding with something like, "I got your list. I am trying to decide what I will or won't do." I am trying to understand how she is supposed to figure out what it is that you are thinking when you keep pulling the "let's talk" card. This is probably a bit of projection on my part but I have gotten to a point where I am sick and tired of all of the talking. I have told my husband what it is that I want/need. He can do those things or not. I would like to have some kind of clear answer as to whether or not he is going to attempt those things or not.

I may have just gone to lalala land with that example... .but hitting finger with hammer... .and "dictating" what your hubby does and thinking it is a request... .and getting frustrated because you have created an unrealistic expectation... .are supposed to be similar... .

Is your expectation of her realistic? You are expecting her to communicate at your level. You have said yourself that you were a communications major and have dealt with 10s of thousands of people communicating. What makes you think that your expectations of her are realistic?

Nothing... .I would only comment on whether or not their communication process is effective... .or not.  Are they getting messages back and forth... .is the "hearer" hearing what the sender is trying to say.

What is your assessment of the communication process between you and your wife? Did you ever make recommendations on how to improve the process? Or did you keep things to whether or not things were effective?

Like... .what were you missing... .that is intriguing.

I think the thing that I was missing most is the fact that I had a bit of a self righteous attitude with my husband.

I am not the sex addict. He is.

I know how to communicate. He doesn't.

I have all of the answers and he doesn't. Everything would be fine if he would listen to me and follow my lead.

How the heck am I going to hear a single word that he says when my own self righteous attitude is drowning out my ability to come down off of my high horse and say, "Hey, things are effed up beyond belief. I have screwed up. You have screwed up. Let's find a way to make it better." I would love to say that I am perfect. I am not. I have made a lot of mistakes too. Sure, some of the stuff that my husband has done is pretty crappy. Do I want my family or do I want to be right? I don't care who is right or wrong. If I value kindness, then I am going to overlook some things without worrying about it being part of some kind of power play or control tactic.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

FF,

I have a suggestion.

Rather than trying to communicate ways to get your wife to change her communication-style (complicated!), how about coming clean about how it affects you.

Sounds like being told what to do turns you off and it really bothers you.  Can you use SET to communicate this to your wife?

ps: She is allowed to have her own feelings about it, too-- her truth.

[formflier]

Sounds like being told what to do turns you off and it really bothers you.  Can you use SET to communicate this to your w

Yeah... .I'm going to have to clearly address this... .again (it's been a few months)... .I was hoping to wait till MC... .because that is last place we made agreements about this kind of thing. 

We have been doing much better communicating and dealing with things outside of MC... .when her "temp" is down.  I'll get back to VOC's post in a bit.

... .

If she did this all the time... .oddly enough... .I might think more about letting it go... .and not worrying about it... .not saying I would do the things she "tells" me.

There are sometimes glimmers of hope and a much better communication style on things... .that is what I want to reinforce... .and let her see that "results" can be gotten that way

Back in a bit... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

Sounds like being told what to do turns you off and it really bothers you.  Can you use SET to communicate this to your w

Yeah... .I'm going to have to clearly address this... .again (it's been a few months)... .I was hoping to wait till MC... .because that is last place we made agreements about this kind of thing. 

In my experience, when his emotions are running high, "agreements" tend to go out the window, or what might've been agreed upon in one area, pops up in another.  Funny thing about that is that MY emotions rear up in the same way, as do my thoughts... .Haven't we already been through this?  Not this again... .  And I can find myself feeling exhausted, maybe even crabby

There are sometimes glimmers of hope and a much better communication style on things... .that is what I want to reinforce... .and let her see that "results" can be gotten that way

Could it be an unrealistic expectation on my part in thinking that if I say it loud enough and enough times he will get it?  Probably.  I've accepted that I can't fix it; managing his emotions is just completely out of my control.  Shoot, managing my own is hard enough at times!  But, that is where my focus needs to be, on my own side of the street; the things that come up within me when faced with some of his stuff.  I do not want his stuff to become my stuff, meaning tit-for-tat is NOT where it's at, though it's hard to admit I've gone this route, not necessarily consciously either, just due to some bad programming on my part; something that is within my ability to recognize and hopefully change.

We are not in counseling together and I am not his counselor.  Something comes up, I want to feel strong enough within myself to be able to handle it, now... .not later with the help of a 3rd party, someone I'm hoping to help get him to see the light, while validating me in the process.  I'm not poo-poo'ing counseling, but isn't the theory (simplistically) to build up our own internal reservoir, get in touch with ourselves?

Do you see your own T?

Not to get too deep into your personal life, FF... .  From this side of the screen, I'm seeing a couple that is going through some pretty heavy life turnabouts.  Could this be an underlying factor for some of these emotional displays?

[formflier]

Do you see your own T?  Yes... .but he is retiring from the VA... .this is something to work on.  I see myself having a T "handy" for the rest of my life.  So... .I might not be going weekly... .or monthly... .but someone I can check in with... .someone that I have a r/s built with... .that I can work through issues... .as needed. 



Not to get too deep into your personal life, FF... .  From this side of the screen, I'm seeing a couple that is going through some pretty heavy life turnabouts.  Could this be an underlying factor for some of these emotional displays?

Yeah... .my guess... .and only my guess... .is that a majority of this stress is coming from job search... .where will we live... .how much money will we make... .what will life look like for us... .in her head. 

And in mine... .

I am at peace with the situation... .I'm blessed that my finances are set... .enough... .so that food and shelter... .clothes... .the basics... .are not in question... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

I am at peace with the situation... .I'm blessed that my finances are set... .enough... .so that food and shelter... .clothes... .the basics... .are not in question... .

You situation reminds me so much of a friend of mine's, who has her own emotional overload and odd ways of communicating with her husband.  He lost his job.  He's doing other things and financially they're set.  Makes no difference to her.  She honestly feels like "he's not taking care of her and he doesn't care about her".  She's a workhorse and can handle all kinds of things, emotions being bottom on the list. She's scared.  He refuses to validate her concerns, because he's not.  He just cannot understand where she's coming from and she cannot understand where he is.  :)eadlock on this one issue and it's tainting the rest of their marriage.

[Notwendy]

I think Phoebe says it well.

When my mother feels out of control, or scared, she won't necessarily say it. She may not be able to- not be aware of the feeling enough to know what it is. However, this can be demonstrated in her ordering us around and controlling what we do, to the point that it makes no sense. Once she demanded we take the trash out and even followed me out to the yard to instruct me on the exact place I should put the trash bin at the end of the yard to the inch. INCH. Like I was hanging a painting on the wall " There. no. not there. a little to the left, no move it to the right no. I was thinking "this is a freaking trash can" but I knew better than to set her off at that moment so I went along with the exact trash placement.

She has also sent us to the store for soup and raged because the wrong noodles were in it, or we got the wrong brand on Tylenol at the drugstore. Things that would seem irrelevant are topics of focus when mom is upset over something else. And she orders us around like a sergeant at basic training camp.

[formflier]

Would it be more accurate to say that it is more about HOW she is saying it than what she is saying?  

Yes... .that's accurate... .pretty close.  There is a basic difference in asking and telling... .

Aren't you purposely NOT doing things because she didn't ask right?

Not really... .I'm generally going about my business... .the way I had it figured out (not like I have a detailed plan of the day... .more like an order of priorties)... .I'll do this... .and then this... .and then this... . Because that is what I think is most efficient... .practical... .whatever.

For instance... .I did a cursory clean of the bathroom... .but not a deep clean.  She didn't say either way... .but I suppose she was not impressed.  I still couldn't find a toilet brush (it wasn't where she said it was... .)... .so inside of bowl didn't get done.  

The reason I didn't deep clean the room... .was that I've got some paint scraping and wallpaper removing coming up... .(couple days... .when I get to it) and after that is done and room is primed... .I'll give it a real good detail clean.

If... .IF... .she had decided to have a conversation about priorities... .this could have been discussed and perhaps a compromise reached.  She choose not to do that... .so I'll do it the best I know how.

When thinking about your general plan for the day, do you make that plan before or after consulting with her? You are doing the things on her list because you want to do them/had planned to do them. Am I understanding it correctly when I say that you aren't taking her into consideration at all when you decide whether or not to follow her list? If it is on the list, do you find yourself more or less apt to do it?

I usually make comments... .or offer to discuss priorities and that kind of thing.  Lots of time... .no input.  If in pissy mood... .she will tell me what I should have done last week.  It does... .from time to time... .happen that she will give me usable input about what I can do... .then... .(right now)... .the period of time I'm talking about.  But... .that is not normal... .and it is a bit shocking when she does this.

 "How difficult is it to NOT be an azz?" Even if I hate somebody, I am going to treat them with kindness. I have not been able to find a way to explain kindness to my husband in a way that he gets it. His version of kindness and mine seem to be very different. Could there be a difference in how the two of you define kind? You have kind as your value. She doesn't. You can't make her value kindness. In my opinion, a person that values kindness is going to approach things very differently than somebody that doesn't see that as a high priority.

I have very similar thoughts.  We have sat through classes at church... .read books that see... .if you don't feel like being kind... .that is exactly when you should "act" kind.  And hopefully... .usually your heart will follow your actions... .and you will feel better.

Plus... .people that are treated kindly... .usually do kind things in return... .it is a good cycle to be in.

99.9% positive we both define kind the same way.  I think moods or choices overwhelm her... .or cloud her judgement in the moment.

Have the two of you evaluated your differences in communication styles? In your professional life, what do you do to get two people with different communication styles to communicate better?

Professionally... .the burden is on the "sender"... .to send a usable message.  Especially if the "receiver" is actively listening and asking for clarification.

If no clarification is forthcoming... .or heaven forbid there is some retort or other diversion... .then... .the "receiver" gets a pass and the professional advice goes to the sender to send a more usable message... .be more clear... .more precise... .(whatever the issue may be).

She alleges that I act "just exactly" how I am/was in the Navy... .as I do with her.  Nothing further from the truth.  I actually think we would be better if she would follow those Navy rules... .be more precise... .be even I don't do that... .or demand that... .at home.

For instance:  Professionally... .(in the Navy)... .exact formatting of words is demanded... .most of the time... .and in some situations... .all the time.  Nothing else is accepted... .people get sent to the house... .kicked out... .whatever... .if they don't get on board.

When coming aboard the carrier... .a command from the LSO to go to the right... .is ONLY said as "right for lineup"... .if they want you to go to the left... .the only thing they will ever say is "come left"

"right" and "lineup" are only used in that context if you should go right... .so if the radio is bad... .and the only thing I hear is "lineup"... .I still know what to do.  If I only hear "come"... .I turn to the left.

I would never... .ever... .try to institute such a thing at home... .even though I think if everyone got onboard with it... .it would be very effective.

I honestly think that expecting someone that wants to make a request... .to format is as a request... .and not a demand... .is "common courtesy"... .and not something that a "communication specialist" or whatever... .would want... .but general public would be ok with.

Am I on  a soapbox?  

Aren't you doing a bit of the same? It isn't about blaming. She isn't the best at communicating. If you want her to communicate better and more clearly, then take the lead. Make sure that you are clear as to whether or not you agree or disagree with her. Are you acknowledging that you even heard what she said? If she sends you a to do list, how would feel about responding with something like, "I got your list. I am trying to decide what I will or won't do." I am trying to understand how she is supposed to figure out what it is that you are thinking when you keep pulling the "let's talk" card. This is probably a bit of projection on my part but I have gotten to a point where I am sick and tired of all of the talking. I have told my husband what it is that I want/need. He can do those things or not. I would like to have some kind of clear answer as to whether or not he is going to attempt those things or not.

I honestly don't think I'm blaming my wife... .this is where my professional and personal meet.  I know who the "sender" is... .and if the "sender" is at fault (responsible... .whatever) for sending a usable message... .and refuses to do so... .well... .I guess I just shrug my shoulders and go on.

Is your expectation of her realistic? You are expecting her to communicate at your level. You have said yourself that you were a communications major and have dealt with 10s of thousands of people communicating. What makes you think that your expectations of her are realistic?

So... .I think asking a question... .as a question (and not a statement) is a realistic expectation.

I think it would be unrealistic of me to expert her to only use certain words in certain contexts (even though I think it  a great idea... .)  

Oh... .and my only expectation of her when I say... .let's talk... .is that we talk.  I am not going to prejudge what she may say... .although I would hope she would say it respectfully... .not call names... .etc etc.

What is your assessment of the communication process between you and your wife? Did you ever make recommendations on how to improve the process? Or did you keep things to whether or not things were effective?

Yeah... .I've gone there before.  Sometimes she will take it onboard... .but not usually.  Same thing with follow rules and agreements from counseling... .short term compliance.

Usually... .it seems she gets upset that I don't have to do anything different... .so... .something will be added for me to do.  Then... .weeks later... .there is some kind of compliance check... .I've done my stuff... .she hasn't done hers... .KABOOM... .

Actually seems more effective to give lessons... .but not check compliance... .she doesn't loose face that way... .(IMO)


I've made mistakes as well... .I own those... .and move on with life.  For me... .I'm fine with the notion that have less mistakes in the area of communication... .but perhaps more in another area.

It seems to be a big deal to my wife to find an area that I'm better in... .and she is not.  Hard to explain.

So... .if I'm "just as bad"... .she seems more willing to work on stuff... .talk about stuff.

Good discussion... .keep it going... .

FF

[an0ught]

"Honey, can you take out the trash"  Request

"Take out the trash"  :)ictatorial.  Especially when you bring all the other elements into it.  "I told you to do this and you didn't... .you love your mother more... .etc etc" The more "other" stuff that goes along with it... .can either lead to it being more dictatorial... .or less.

I suspect words in the dialog don't really describe the situation accurately. Here is how I perceive similar situations at home:

1) Wife upset.

2) Finds increasingly more fault around her - not clean, not properly cleaned, smudge on the wall, minor chip missing here etc. which are all called out increasingly loud.

3) I'm trying to ignore it (yeah, I know I should validate but then I also want to have a break. Please)

4) Mumbles that she never gets a break (true, she is unable to schedule one), feels invalidate by me not panicing

5) Garbage suddenly needs to be taken out and a request get shouted in my direction.

Now I'm confronted with

- urgent and high priority request

- while I want to have a break and have clearly signaled that

- which is neither urgent nor high priority but

- is designed to exert immediate control over me and is crashing deliberately invalidating into the calmness bubble I crafted around me

If I'm not careful now I'm get an negative emotion dump prepended by reminders that she handles the garbage all the time.


This is not about garbage, this is about emotional transference through invalidation. This is about exerting control over me to better cope with her own emotions.

[formflier]

This is about exerting control over me to better cope with her own emotions.

Yes... .I agree.  Does your wife see or acknowledge the pattern? 

I've had a great couple days... .until... .a couple hours ago.

All of a sudden... .she is telling me my feelings... .when I ask her about her feelings... .trying to find something to validate... .well... .S19 thinks this... .so and so thinks this... .feels this.

After one more redirect where I was looking for her to express something about her... .to me... .I dropped it.

She has spent a couple hours tossing bait... .suggesting I not go to a planned concert tonight... .because "she doesn't want to be with a grumpy person... ."... .yet won't directly say she thinks it will be me. 


I feel nothing on my trigger scale... .so I'm going.

And will try to protect my bubble... .let her keep her stuff... .I offered... .she doesn't want to take any steps to get help or express... .so... .I wish her luck.

FF

[formflier]

is crashing deliberately invalidating into the calmness bubble I crafted around me

I like this line... .this thought.  It describes what I've been trying to do for a while.  I'll own my stuff... .and keep the rest of the stuff... .outside my bubble.

Sure... .I might help here and there... .but for me... .it's about energy conservation... .and that I don't let others suck it out... .without permission.

FF