Just had my first discussion wih my 12 yo daughter about her mom's BPD.

[DrA]

Gosh, I just had my first discussion with my 12 yo (very mature) daughter about Mom's BPD.  Super mixed feelings about it.  Wanted her to know all of the rage wasn't about her, but was about Mom's stuff.  Also I feel guilty because I think I wanted someone beside me to know that this is hard.  I want her to know that this is not the model of a great relationship.  And to not go into her own relationships thinking yelling and screaming and name calling is normal. Finally, I wanted her to know in the moment that mom might have a valid concern when she is raging (an unclean room or a bad grade) but the way she is handling it is wrong.  So it was important for my daughter to not just dismiss the concern as invalid because the delivery of the concern was so bad.  Finally, I wanted her to know that Mom is not bad, she just has this as a difficulty as we all have our own difficulties. 

     In some ways, I am super glad I had the conversation with her about it, in other ways I feel like I just hit her with a firehose of information.  Yikes.  Now to talk to her 14 yo brother who seems to internalize everything anyone says including Mom's rages.  Any thoughts on whether this was a good idea, and other ideas on teaching kids about his. 

     Forgot to add, I also wanted to label it so my daughter could go do a little researh herself on the topic.   

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[Lastbreath]

I am now realizing my wife symptoms are BPD.  I have 2 daughters at home. (18 & 15)  This is just my opinion based on my situation.  I have chose to teach my daughters healthy ways of interacting with their mother, just as I have always done.  I teach them to learn what it is that their mother is concerned about is real but her delivery is wrong and can be hurtful.  I will not share the diagnosis of BPD, especially if it was not offered by a doctor.  I can just visualize the fireworks that would occur in my home.  This, to me, is like setting land mines for yourself.  Kids talk, they need to talk.  This is the information age, Facebook, etc.  I'd be afraid the information I shared in an attempt to help my daughter better understand would come out in the worst way at the worst time.  You're daughter is 12.  She is not hormonal yet.  My wife knows how and what buttons to push with everyone in our family.  Thru puberty your daughter may get a little defiant, and stand up for herself to your wife.  I wouldn't want this mentioned in a fit of rage and hurt.  Sometimes I can not control myself I get so upset.  Or what if your daughter thinks she's going to help you both and share some information with mom while mom is in a loving nurturing moment only to explode.  My wife does this constantly.  She makes you think you can share your thoughts and feelings only to twist what you say and make it all your fault and all about her.  So I would not put myself, my daughter or my wife in this position.  This has the potential to be very combustible.  I'm exhausted being the peace keeper.  I would be afraid.  But you know your situation much better than I.  Best of luck to you my friend.

[Cmjo]

well done, I wonder what your daughter replied to what you said. I have tried to tell my kids S11 and D13, in the last two years since I suspected, its only a few months since my exBPDh was actually diagnosed. But they are not willing to talk about it. maybe they know how upset it makes me, so of course why should they have information that might be hurtful to them. Their Dad can be so lovely, they are confused. But I think the word bad behaviour has sunk in, or Daddy is in a bad mood. and they know its not normal. But they would so like to be normal and me living apart from their Dad is still hurting them.

Its really good that you have started to explain that this is not the model of a great relationship, its so important. I am sure they will work that one out anyway, but you reinforcing it could help them to choose between a good relationship and bad in the future. And their understanding how to handle the BPD parent better could help tthem throughout life too, there will be other difficult people to handle along the way... .

[vortex of confusion]

I think it is really important to talk to kids about what they are experiencing. Whether or not it has a label is irrelevant to me. Using the validation tools is helpful when talking to kids about this stuff. For years, I invalidated their experiences with dad because I didn't want them to think bad of him. It was shortsighted on my part.

What I have done is started talking to them about how frustrating it is to deal with dad. Sometimes, he can be fun and loving and wonderful. Other times, he can be a jerk. He doesn't seem to know balance though. He has lightened up and has taken some of the silliness too far. One of our daughters commented that he was being too silly one day. Instead of toning it down, he said, "I can always go back to being grumpy." UGH! Why isn't there a middle ground? I talked to my daughter about how it is very frustrating and makes it difficult to deal with dad.

And, I can help by helping them to navigate the waters between what is a valid request like "put your dishes in the sink". It is sometimes difficult find the validity in what is being said when it is being yelled or said in ways that are not okay. It is much easier to do when the kids know that it isn't them. Sure, kids get defiant at times but that is no excuse for an adult to be a jerk. The more information kids have, the easier it is for them to navigate the waters.

[Lastbreath]

I totally agree with Vortex of confusion.  Sorry, Dr a.  In my knee-jerk response to your first post I let my worries run a muck and I totally neglected to mention the positive aspects of your actions.  I think your kids are lucky to have such a brave, insightful, caring father.  It's great that you spend time talking with them and validating their feelings.  You are helping them become adults that will understand.  You are helping them to break the chains and not have this repeated in their lives.  I know it is not easy.  I often pray for the knowledge to handle every situation wisely.  I am sure that, like me, you don't want your kids to carry any emotional scars from growing up in a home with BPD.  It's a very nice thing you did for your children.  Keep up the good work

[DrA]

Yes, Vortex of Confusion and Last Breath.  I assure you I have had many many second thoughts about talking to my daughter about my wife's BPD.  That same day in fact, my daughter and wife had been squabbling about the dogs bad manners, and my daughter then confronted my wife in front of my wife's parents about my wife's anger.  Yikes.  I was terrified that BPD was going to be brought up even though I had expressly warned my daughter that was a very bad idea to do that.  Luckily she didn't bring it up, but boy did it give me a scare. 

I try to imagine that it may not be a terrible thing to have it out in the open that this is something we all know and are trying to deal with.  But I worry that is in a fantasy world as I am not sure my wife will ever come to accept that diagnosis.  When I brought it up with her the first time, she got really angry and let me know how offended she was, turning it back on me for being a jerk husband to tell her that. 

I tried to deflate it by saying I have issues too like ocd and that is ok.  We are all working on something.  She again turned it back on me saying that OCD is a much friendlier diagnosis painting me again as the martyr with crazed lunatic BPD as a wife.  While I certainly can agree with some of that (people generally view BPD as worse than many other diagnoses), I also believe firmly that we are all working on something.  Anyway, still trying to figure out if I should continue having this conversation with the other kids (I have 6 total).   

[vortex of confusion]

I tried to deflate it by saying I have issues too like ocd and that is ok.  We are all working on something.  She again turned it back on me saying that OCD is a much friendlier diagnosis painting me again as the martyr with crazed lunatic BPD as a wife.  While I certainly can agree with some of that (people generally view BPD as worse than many other diagnoses), I also believe firmly that we are all working on something.  Anyway, still trying to figure out if I should continue having this conversation with the other kids (I have 6 total).   

A couple of thoughts. . .

Why does it matter whether or not there is a diagnosis or a label? She is right. OCD is a much friendlier label. If there is a diagnosis of a personality disorder, could it impact a job or other stuff like that? Is it possible to work on stuff without a label?

I am not sure how to explain this. I think that there should be a conversation with the other kids. The conversation probably shouldn't include labels like BPD. It would probably be best to talk about it from the angle of "I see you having trouble with how mom acts." Or something like that. It is about giving the kids age appropriate tools to protect themselves. If mom hits, get away and call you or 911. If mom rages, come get me or go hide in your room. Kids need to learn that it is okay to set boundaries within reason.

Also, I think kids are all too often left out of the equation. Mom rages or acts like a jerk or does whatever it is that she does and the impact on the kids is overlooked. I don't know if that is the case for you. I know that happened here. The kids tend to be disrespectful towards dad no matter what. They were more disrespectful before I talked to them and validated the fact that dad is a pain in the butt to deal with at times. A whole lot of stuff can be discussed, validated, and kids can be empowered without ever giving a label for the overall group of behaviors.

[takingandsending]

VOC,

I really like your last post. "If mom rages, come and get me or go hide in your room." Somehow, kids who are much smaller than their adult parents need some type of tool for enforcing boundaries that won't increase the emotional upset or place them in danger. That's a really good one. Thank you. 

DrA,

I think at this point, you have to accept what you have done and go with it. It's not really reasonable to expect your daughter to keep the BPD secret, and it doesn't sound as if you have done so with your wife. Maybe, it's best to sort out how you feel about your wife's illness - what does it mean to you, about you and about her? I am still trying to sort out that exact quagmire, myself. But, I have been sharing with my S9 a few bits of information, like "Mom has a hard time knowing what to do with big emotions. We all have a hard time with that, but it is not okay to take them out on anyone else." or "When mom is angry, it's okay that she feels that way, and it doesn't mean that you have to do something about it." or when he is flared up himself, "Give yourself space to feel what you are feeling before you say anything." We read a book how anger or bad feelings are like a fire that require adding more thoughts or bad feelings to keep them burning. I let him know that his mom has a hard time not adding more thoughts to the fire, but that he can choose a different way. Mostly, though, it is about how I act in the confrontations. That's where I keep stumbling and falling and getting up and trying to walk the talk to show both my sons that you can maintain who you are, even when someone is upset with you. You are doing good work. Keep reading the Lessons to the right and keep posting. I am hoping that by implementing some of the tools, your wife can begin to regulate a little better. Can't control it, but we can support it by taking care of ourselves and not feeding the fire.

[DrA]

So I am really torn over this issue.  I think back to 14 years ago when I was really struggling with OCD.  I had no idea that was what it was.  I had been to therapy and my T had actually told me I was having so much guilt and anxiety because I had done something wrong.  It was not until years later, while I was sitting in a class learning to be a therapist that we had a whole class about OCD that it hit me like a bolt of lightning.  I finally did not feel completely alone and crazy anymore.  I couldn't believe there were other people struggling with this, and that I could even go read about it and help others struggling with this thing?  Wow.  It was a huge revelation. 

So on the one hand labels can be awfully dark and depressing.  They can make someone seem waaaaaay worse than they are.  For example, my wife is for sure BPD.  She rages and calls the kids names, I walk on egg shells around her etc.  But really it sounds like she is on the more mild end.  She does no self harm, only mildly talks about suicide, but quickly assures people she isn't really, she impulsively spends $20 but never impulsively buys new cars or has sex with people.  To me she is probably a 4 on the scale of 1-10.  But I think the label means a 10 to most people that hear the label. 

However, on the positive side, labels help you understand you are not alone or crazy in imagining these problems, there is treatment for this, oh, and here is what you can do for this specific problem.  In my opinion that is why we are on this site instead of the cranky spouse website. We have a spouse that is struggling specifically with BPD and these other people get it.  I also think it helps to humanize people.  You are not a complete jerk who calls children names for no reason.  You actually have  a disorder that makes it really hard to keep your cool when you are stressed. 

Thus, I am not sure if telling the label to the kids is helpful or not.   

[takingandsending]

DrA

There was an attempt to re-label it emotional dysregulation disorder. Have you considered just calling it difficulty regulating emotions? Accurate and less frightening than borderline personality.

[vortex of confusion]

Thus, I am not sure if telling the label to the kids is helpful or not.   

If the kids were old enough to do their own research and understand that it isn't a good idea to tell mom, "You are borderline" or any other slip that might happen with kids, then the label might be helpful. Whenever talking to kids about stuff, it is a good idea to keep it age appropriate. Is a young kid going to understand borderline personality disorder or is a young kid more likely to understand something like "Mom has a difficult time with self control" or something like that. Make it so that the kid can relate to a certain degree. Kids throw fits and have a difficult time with self control. Something like, "You know how we have talked about not acting like a jerk to your siblings when they make you mad. Well, mom has trouble with not being a jerk too. She has a problem that makes it difficult for her to control those things."

Also, what is your purpose for telling the kids? Is it to empower them? Is it to make your wife look bad? Is it to help them be more compassionate towards mom? Is it to help them not take things so personal? Is it to validate their struggles in dealing with mom?

It is really important to make sure that your purpose for telling them is positive. And make sure that they don't feel responsible for mom. I suspect that you may need to approach it with each kid slightly different. Some kids scare easy. Is a big label like borderline personality disorder going to scare a kid? To a kid, that might sound a bit scary. Really think about the individual personality of each of the kids and approach it accordingly.

[DrA]

I agree completely that my 6yo does not need to hear the label Borderline Personality Disorder.  However the older siblings in some ways I feel an obligation to tell them.  Why?  I have zero desire to make Mom look bad.  I love her dearly.  My biggest fears are that they will think less of her or that she will find out we are talking about her and feel betrayed.  However, I do want them to know what they are dealing with and that it is not really about them.  I've got a 14 yo that currently hits himself in the head and says he is stupid when he is in trouble. I only have one guess where he got that idea.  I could just tell him Mom has trouble handling stress but that is not nearly as convincing as the diagnosis he can look up and read about himself.  See, he has grown up in a house where when Dad complains about mom being a Bully it is quickly shut down with ":)ad is just too sensitive.  In the real world, people do this."  So currently if dad says mom has a hard time with stress and it is not about you when she does that, my son can easily dismiss this as dad just being too sensitive.  He said, she said at its finest.  But if he knows this thing is official and it is happening to other people it becomes more valid.  It is like group therapy.  If one crazy therapist says you are depressed, you might not be.  But if 12 people all see that you are depressed, it is much harder to deny. 

[vortex of confusion]

However the older siblings in some ways I feel an obligation to tell them. 

Do you think they are old enough to send a link with information about BPD? I have given my oldest daughter (13 almost 14) enough information for her to do some research on her own. It is interesting that words like 'trigger' and 'projection' are now in her vocabulary. And we have talked about my family history as well as dad's family history. I feel like I am trying to give her a bigger context so that she doesn't think that dad is a bad person.

See, he has grown up in a house where when Dad complains about mom being a Bully it is quickly shut down with ":)ad is just too sensitive.  In the real world, people do this."  So currently if dad says mom has a hard time with stress and it is not about you when she does that, my son can easily dismiss this as dad just being too sensitive. 

Once you open up the lines of communication about this stuff, the kids might surprise you. The other night, my oldest was telling ME that dad is a bully. And we had a nice long discussion about it.

He said, she said at its finest.  But if he knows this thing is official and it is happening to other people it becomes more valid.  It is like group therapy.  If one crazy therapist says you are depressed, you might not be.  But if 12 people all see that you are depressed, it is much harder to deny. 

I think that is one of the best things that has come of me opening up discussions with my kids about dad. They have all seen it. It is kind of difficult to deny. However, until I opened up the lines of communication, it was kind of like the elephant in the room. By working with the kids on their reactions and giving them better tools to deal with stuff, I think it might be inadvertently helping him too. I have approached it as "As a family, we all need to work on blah, blah, blah." My oldest does the same thing that your 14 year old does and I feel like approaching the behavior as a family seems to be doing some good for everyone.