my dillema for tonight

[maxsterling]

This is more of an undecided topic, but you folks here know me best.   My head is back and forth - serve her tomorrow am, or try one more counseling session at noon?

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[Verbena]

One more counseling session with the two of you?  If so, I would be inclined to go to the session with her, (and by "with her" I mean you meet her there) but not in the hopes of it fixing anything.  I would use the counseling session as a neutral place with a witness present to let her know that you will be taking action to stop both the verbal and physical abuse you have endured. 

That could mean you will ask her to move out and seek help on her own, or it could mean that you tell her you see no other option except divorce, or it could mean that you ask for a trial separation, or it could mean that you tell her you have an Order of Protection against her that will be served shortly. 

Whatever you do, do not let her talk you into returning home with her there.  Another assault is an almost certainty if you do.  Or worse.   

[GaGrl]

Could you serve at the end of the session if it is contentious?

[maxsterling]

It has to be served by police.   If it went real south, i could call 911.   Atm i am leaning to trying counseling so long as she agrees.  Any abuse via text email or phone tonight, and i serve tomorrow am.

[Cat Familiar]

What would be your intent in attending a counseling session? Are you hoping to give her another chance? Or would it be a neutral space where you could tell her how her behavior has impacted you? Are you planning on serving her soon or would that be up in the air depending upon how the session went?

[Cat Familiar]

Years ago I paid the marshall to serve a subpoena on a civil matter. Apparently they tried a few times and never were able to complete the service, so it never was received. Is she likely to evade it if they try to serve her?

[Verbena]

My feeling is that she is going to put on quite a show and try to suck you back in.  Please don't fall for it. 

[maxsterling]

What would be your intent in attending a counseling session? Are you hoping to give her another chance? Or would it be a neutral space where you could tell her how her behavior has impacted you? Are you planning on serving her soon or would that be up in the air depending upon how the session went?

I really don't know.  I am back and forth on this.  But my gut tells me the session will not go well.  The nice guy in me wants to give her a chance, not just in the r/s, but if she wants to part amicably or take a break without going through the OOP.  I think that's probably a pipe dream.

MC didn't even call me back tonight.  That frustrates me.  W gave me all kinds of threatening texts and screaming voicemails saying she was not going to go unless I would "admit my part in it" She knocked it off by about 3pm, and after that my phone was quiet.

I called the social worker again, she said she can get me into a men's group therapy for DV starting this Monday.  She also stressed my safety, and stressed that it is probably in my best interest to just serve the OOP soon.  I told the social worker that my guess is W will immediately try to contact me after the order is served, and she said that is likely, and I should call police and report that violation.  That would then be a misdemeanor, a large fine, and possibly jail time.

This is where I am having a hard time.  A few weekends ago we had a mostly fun camping trip.  And now we are down to this.  Yes, she has always landed on her feet.  But really?  In my mind, she hasn't, and she's just damn lucky she has made it to 39.  An OOP = I think she would find someone else to take her in, somehow.  But as low functioning as she has been,I truly believe this would determine the rest of her life is spent crashing with relatives, working occasionally, or living in group homes, just like her mother. 

Not that that is my problem or should influence my decision about my own safety, but it does make me feel quite sad.

[sweetheart]

One more MC means nothing to your wife other than a platform for her to blame you for what has happened. You already know this she has already started blaming you in her messages to you.

I understand feeling sad about this happening and wanting to hold on to happy memories, but from your time on this board max the happy times sound very few. What has become more evident is the steady escalation of serious instability which has now become violent.

All the professionals you have been in contact with have given you very sound advice based on their experience and the legal board has echoed the same. The reason they are telling you to serve the OOP, is because they know that a clear indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour. They also know that once a SO has crossed a boundary into physical violence it is very unlikely to stop unless protective measures are put in place.

I can hear you are worried about your wife, but it is worth noting that with all this going on, whilst you have not been there, she has been managing ok, being in contact with others meeting her own needs. What is important for you to do at the moment is look after your own needs by  putting yourself first.

[waverider]

Dont combine serving with a session, or anything else. It needs to be separate issue carefully chosen. Otherwise you are in danger of a knee jerk reaction based on the mood of the moment

The consequence of serving is longer lasting and should not be influenced by a potential reaction.

Are you still not sure, and are fishing for a provocation, to have the decision forced from you?

Big picture actions should be based on big picture decisions.

It is likely that what is said in the now has no real impact on the long term, its just words.

[formflier]

It is likely that what is said in the now has no real impact on the long term, its just words.

And... .don't pay attention to words... .pay attention to actions.

My only caveat to that... .is that the use of words to "blow up your phone"... .and the abusive stuff... .means that she is somewhat dysregulated (which unfortunately is normal for her)

I've got more advice for next post... .but this struck me as critical... .

Stay strong Max... .!

 

FF

[formflier]

 

Max,

Tough spot to be in... .you are an awesome... .standup guy for trying to hard... .  I like that.   You are a can do guy!

Go to one more counseling session... .with a gameplan 

This is the toughest of the two options (IMO)... .because it exposes you to the chance for her to push your buttons.  Go look in mirror... .think... .if you see nice max going to the counseling session.  Have her served and stay out of it

If centered... .boundary loving Max can go to the session... .there is a chance for something productive to come of this.

No guarantees.

If you go to session... .your only goal is to have her hear 1 message... .I'm assuming you have 50-60 minutes in session.

Tweak out this message in writing.

"Wife, the future of my participation in the r/s depends on your dealing with DV and behaviors that go along with it (I would shy away from saying a disease "caused it)." 

"I can't make this choice for you.  I need to know which choice you will ACT on... ."

Leave it at that... .hopefully the MC will keep redirecting the conversation back to an answer.  If she wants to act on it... .the discuss what that looks like.

Boundary:  I would not discuss any of "your fault" for DV.  Zero discussion.  I would not argue and say ... .or claim that you are not at fault.  That is getting off message.

"The future of my participation in the r/s... .(get back on message)"

Assure her that you are willing and able to participate in any and all discussions about ANY issues she has... .AFTER professionals assure you that she has dealt with DV issues.  (don't get sucked into debating treatment options... .you both know this will be long process)

I'll hush for now... .with a final though.  If it goes well... .she will need a place to stay.  My hope is hospitalization... .but... .you guys can't be together until professionals assure you that she is complying and they recommend it.

 

Hope this advice helps... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

My advice is that you really need to choose a path, and take at least a few more steps down it. The paths I see for you:

1. Walk away from your marriage and your wife. Protect yourself. Let her find her own support network and team, but you can't be that person for her, at least until you personally are safe.

2. Keep working on your marriage, working on boundaries, and that includes keeping enough physical distance to be safe, and being in contact with her when you are grounded and centered and she isn't dysregulated.

I think if you try to do both, neither one will go well. (For example telling her T about your plans, which got back to her... .I advised against that because I figured that her T was legally and ethically obligated to look out for your wife's interests and NOT YOURS.)

However I don't believe that taking a week's walk down either path will prevent you from trying the other one again. So while I'm encouraging you to decide, I still believe you have room to change your mind.

There is also path #3... .go away for a while (or send her away for a while, if you want to be more sure you keep your house safe) to take care of yourself, get your head straight, get away from your wife... .and allow yourself some time to make the decision. Call it an emergency separation, as opposed to a therapeutic separation, which is possible on path #2.

[Grey Kitty]

The consequence of serving is longer lasting and should not be influenced by a potential reaction.

... .

Big picture actions should be based on big picture decisions.

I just want to second this comment and add one other to it:

If you serve her the OOP... .and later go back with her... .and then this starts happening all over again... .you will be in the same situation, except for one thing--your credibility with the law enforcement system is now much worse. You asked for protection from her, then went back to her, breaking the order yourself.

If you can keep yourself safe at the same time you allow yourself some space to think about this big choice, before it is forced on you, you are more likely to make the right choice for yourself the first time.

[Notwendy]

 "men's group therapy for DV starting this Monday."

Whatever you decide, IMHO, I would urge you to do this.

As to your ambivalence, I can understand this. I watched my father cycle through this many times. However, in his day, he was isolated with his issues, nobody to talk to about this.

It isn't good to parentify a child, but once I became older, that's the way it was in the house, because I "outgrew" my mother emotionally at some point. Every once in a while, Dad would get to the point where he'd had enough, and speak to me about it. But he couldn't stand to see mom hurt, and he didn't go through with it. Eventually, I learned that getting into this conversation was being part of the dysfunctional triangle.

My mother blamed me for all of their relationship issues. I was convinced that when I left for college, they would be fine. Things did seem to get better after the kids left home, because we were no longer a challenge to their world. Yet Dad got more and more isolated with her- living in a world designed by her feelings- and without someone else who knew about it to talk to. It should not have been me, but I wish he'd had someone.

Watching this was when I knew I had to take action, and I got into counseling to try to make sense of all of this. I think this is why it is called FOG- cloudy and unclear. People here have given you great advice, but nobody can decide for you. A support group can be a source of objectivity and support no matter what you decide.

[maxsterling]

all great thoughts.  I didn't sleep well.  I'm up, it's a beautiful morning, I'm thin asking of a walk.  Then an al-anon meeting.  I've got a page open on my browser defining what "assault" and "domestic violence" mean in my state.  She's clearly committed crimes against me.  Should I go to counseling with her today, that needs to be my sole focus.  I can't stay in this r/s unless she is willing to seek help for those clearly criminal behaviors:

1) hitting/physical injury

2) destroying property

3) threatening to destroy property

4) threatening to injure

5) Threatening words used to intimidate

6) Harassment by phone

As I lay right now, I don't see a MC session focusing on that going well, at all.  She WILL blame shift.  I am hoping the MC will call me back this morning. If so, I tell MC my intent is to see if she feels we can stay on that topic. And I will also pay attention to my phone this morning, to see if W is sounding threatening or sounding remorseful. If I don't think the above is possible (staying on topic in MC session), there is no reason for me to go and be abused all over again.  I will go to my alanon meeting, then walk across to the police station and have OOP served.  

[formflier]

 

Max,

I hear/see a "resoluteness" about you now.

This is good.

Go to counseling today.

The only way you get abused in counseling... .is if you allow it.

If you are willing to serve the OOP... .I would hope you are willing to enforce a no abuse boundary in counseling... .or anywhere... .for that matter.

Tactically speaking though:  MC is a chance to communicate with professional help.  It may not work.  If she starts to abuse... .warn and stop talking... .let MC take the lead in trying to calm.  I'm not saying you have to sit through an entire session of her blathering... .if she does.  

But... .the goal is communication... .so... .you may need to take a 5 minute break to let MC have a chance to calm her.

Or... .she may dysreg and leave.

Personal note:  I've never walked out on counseling... .my wife has.  Several times.  That is how I found out about BPD... .after she stormed out... .I stayed... .and asked MC what I was dealing with.  BPD was the answer... .

That being said... .I've never had a session long abuse ... .it's been abusive for 5... .maybe 10 minutes... .but counselor was able to get it under control... .or my wife left.

FF

[Notwendy]

Max what are your feelings? What do you want?

IMHO, making a decision based on your wife's behaviors is putting the decision in her hands. I will do this if you do that... .

The issue isn't about one session of MC, a moment in time, but the pattern. How your wife behaves over time, not an hour. Someone who is volatile is capable of being calm for a while and then enraged.

This is a cycle- a cycle of blowing up, then being really really sorry and sweet for a while- sometimes it is 5 minutes, sometimes longer. However, none of this is something you can control or with conditions. Mental illness is mental illness.

IMHO, it's the total package or not. The good times come with the rest of it. You mentioned that you can't understand this after a nice camping trip. Well that was the nice time, but that was one part of the whole.

She could be perfectly fine in MC or not. but one hour of MC is only a tiny fraction of the whole of the time spent with her.

IMHO, the bigger picture is the whole of it.

[GaGrl]

Max, be very clear that the OOP means you will not see her, speak with her, have any type of contact with her for one year and perhaps longer.  Are you ready for that? If not, that may guide how your day plays out. If you are ready, you are ready.

May your angels be on your shoulder today, my friend.

[Verbena]

I think notwendy nailed it.  It's about the pattern of behavior and the big picture, not how she may behave during one counseling session. 

From reading your posts over a long period of time, it seems your life revolves around going from one counseling or therapy session to another, none of which has helped her signficantly, and dealing with one dysregulation after another. The big picture is that she is very, very sick and getting worse.   

I posted last night that I thought your wife might put on a show during the counseling session today and try to suck you back in.  I actually kind of doubt that now given that she has left you "screaming voicemails" saying you need to admit your "part in it."  If she needs to make you feel that you caused her to hit you and verbally abuse you, then she is a long way from where she needs to be.

 

[formflier]

 

She may try to put on a "show" today... .either way... .to suck you in... .or push you away.

Ignore both... .use the professional's help to communicate what you need/want to communicate to your wife.

Then... .watch her actions... .over a long period of time... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

If you're ready to serve the OOP, you will know from the depth of your entire being.

My ex-husband cycled from abuse to normal behavior over and over and I kept getting sucked back into the relationship. It was hard to consider a permanent split because of shared assets and a business. He would apologize for the violence, but then later it was my fault because I had set him off. I wavered for years until one day there was a defining moment and I knew with absolute certainty that I was done. I've never regretted for a minute that choice, but I have regretted waiting so long to make that decision.

[maxsterling]

I woke up this morning after a mostly restless sleep, took a shower, looked in the mirror, and saw another bruise - deep purple - from Wednesday night.  At that point, my mind was mostly made up.  I decided I would go to an Alanon meeting, pray, share about it, ask for help.  I stood up and said I am a victim of domestic violence.  I feel that took courage.  As I left, I tried calling the MC one more time.  I have not heard back from her in 3 days, and once again had to leave a voicemail.  I told MC that to cancel the noon meeting, that I was going to serve an OOP, because I could not see where any good would come out of one more session, only more abuse and blame.  I then called my dad, let him know what was going on, and he said he suspected this, and supported my decision.

I then called police.   They said I needed to be somewhere in the vicinity of my wife, but I was a few miles away.   They instructed me to go to near where she is, park at a local store, and call the police from there.  So, I drove by the house to the shopping center across the street, but my wife's car was not there.  I waited.  It was getting to be only an hour before the scheduled MC session, and then the MC called.  I talked to MC and said exactly the same thing again.  I am not willing to sit through another hour of abuse.  MC said she would call W and let her know the session was off.  W immediately texted me, said she was prepared to go to MC and asked why I called it off.  I replied that I felt it would be pointless to go if she is wanting me to accept blame for domestic violence, and that I need her to get specific help for DV if this r/s is to continue.  I expected her to explode, but she didn't.  So I agreed to meet her at MC, thinking that if she takes the abusive blame route at MC, I can call police from there. 

I was sure to get to MC first, talked to MC, said that I refuse to sit an listen to blame, and said the session needs to be under control.  When W showed up, MC actually set some good ground rules of no details and no blaming.  MC actually did an OK job of keeping things on topic.  W actually listened to me when I said that I feared her, and feared the violence, and that i was seeking trauma therapy.  Of course, W tried playing victim herself, still tried accusing me of being controlling by calling police on her, but MC was better about getting things back on topic this time. 

In the end, I am still staying with friends for two more nights.  Then we agreed to sleep in separate bedrooms for awhile.  W said she had nowhere else to go... .more later.

[formflier]

 

On top of all the DV issues... .the phone call hassles with MC must have been really frustrating.

I am glad you got in the same room... .with a professional.  Sounds like you were able to say what you had to say.

So... .how do you feel?  Now that you have said it... .and it seems she has heard it. 

Very different from details about what to do... .bedrooms... .where to go... .etc etc.

FF

[maxsterling]

Not sure how I feel. Half is saying I wish she was home earlier so I could have served the order and this was all over.  The other half is "wait and see".  Notice no "half" is saying "things are gonna be okay". 

I'm glad MC went mostly okay today.  But wary that it's just one day.  In other words, odds are probably greater than 90% I will be dealing with DV again within a month. 

Good news is that this arrangement means W wants freedom to take care of herself.  GOOD!

But thinking later - I am thinking I have a crappy MC.  CLEARLY by every metric on DV, I am a victim, and by every statistic I am likely to face more harm.  Yes, I am aware of that, have been told that, and know I can do something about that.  But I do feel a little shocked that this MC has never once called me or pulled me aside and told it to me straight up... .    I'm not so much thinking about myself, but of other patients who are DV victims.  Is there a responsibility to therapists to recognize obvious signs of abuse and offer lines of support?

On top of all the DV issues... .the phone call hassles with MC must have been really frustrating.

I am glad you got in the same room... .with a professional.  Sounds like you were able to say what you had to say.

So... .how do you feel?  Now that you have said it... .and it seems she has heard it. 

Very different from details about what to do... .bedrooms... .where to go... .etc etc.

FF

[sweetheart]

Your MC T is only duty bound to report something if one of her patients is at risk of imminent harm or death. So to report it she would have to believe your life or your wife's is in danger, these are fairly standard guidelines.

It is also worth saying that it is her professional responsibility to recommend discontinuing MC whilst there is active DV. It is her duty to keep you both safe and acknowledge that the sessions can become triggers in themselves for your w, increasing the risks and that then endangers you. Has she done this ? If she hasn't I would suggest you instigate this yourself, you both have separate T's.

[sweetheart]

Hi max wanted to link this to my post but couldn't edit so anyway here it is

www.ocadsv.org/sites/default/files/aic_couples-counseling-not-recommended-dv.pdf

[formflier]

  The other half is "wait and see".  Notice no "half" is saying "things are gonna be okay". 

Max,

This seems very healthy and grounded to me.  It's not about what she said today... .you want to "see" what she does.

Very... .very good.

[formflier]

  In other words, odds are probably greater than 90% I will be dealing with DV again within a month. 

Where are you going to put your boundary lines?

Not just for DV... .but for abusive behavior... .

Am I correct when I suggest that the abusive behavior starts with talk (blaming) of some sort?

You have clearly communicated that you are in fear and taking steps to protect yourself.  Now is the time to make big adjustments... .and be consistent about that.

She may act shocked... .but really... .my guess it what is coming through is a fear of loosing control over you. 

Sounds like you have a day or so to think this through.

FF

[Notwendy]

I woke up this morning after a mostly restless sleep, took a shower, looked in the mirror, and saw another bruise - deep purple - from Wednesday night.  At that point, my mind was mostly made up.  I decided I would go to an Alanon meeting, pray, share about it, ask for help.  I stood up and said I am a victim of domestic violence.  I feel that took courage.  As I left, I tried calling the MC one more time.  I have not heard back from her in 3 days, and once again had to leave a voicemail.  I told MC that to cancel the noon meeting, that I was going to serve an OOP, because I could not see where any good would come out of one more session, only more abuse and blame.  I then called my dad, let him know what was going on, and he said he suspected this, and supported my decision.




Max, I commend you for speaking the truth to others and reaching out for help. This is a huge step. Denial is thick. When things are good in the r/s, we can tend to slip back into thinking "well they are not so bad".

Regardless of what decision you arrive at, telling the truth, asking for help, is a first step to not lying to yourself and others about your situation.

Ultimately, I think this is our own undoing- abandoning ourselves, our reality, our boundaries- when we are not honest. There is no shame in asking for help and I am glad you are doing it. It takes a lot of support to stay or leave in these situations. Perhaps even more support is needed if the decision is to leave, because it is venturing into a new situation.