Can there ever truly be trust?

[DearBFF]

I'm wondering if there can ever truly be trust in a BPD relationship/friendship?  How/when does one get to the point where you trust them?

It just seems that even if they don't mean to hurt you... .

if they feel too claustrophobic one day and push you away

if they decide they want a break and decide to go radio silent for a while

if they get mad and say things they don't mean and can't take back

if they become overwhelmed by things going on in their life that they drop the ball on everything

if they forget to reach out at important times like anniversaries and birthdays

then how can you trust them again?

I love my BFF, I know I without a doubt want her in my life, but trust is just something I do not have with her.  I don't know how you an have trust with someone who has BPD (especially when they don't know that they probably have it, and are not in treatment for it).  If they love you one minute and hate you the next how do you trust?  Do you get to a point (especially those in therapy I guess who are working on it) where they finally see what they are doing, how they are hurting those around them, and when they do it again you talk about it?  So instead of them pushing you away, or going radio silent, or saying mean things, or dropping the ball, or not reaching out... .they will talk about it?

That just seems so foreign to me right now, I just don't see it... .

Thanks ahead of time!

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[formflier]

Great question... .

if they feel too claustrophobic one day and push you away

if they decide they want a break and decide to go radio silent for a while

if they get mad and say things they don't mean and can't take back

if they become overwhelmed by things going on in their life that they drop the ball on everything

if they forget to reach out at important times like anniversaries and birthdays

So... .these are all behaviors... .and at their core... .they have nothing to do with you (us... .the nons).  It has everything to do with what is going on inside the pwBPD traits. 

There needs to be a healthy dose of RA (radical acceptance) that a pwBPD is going to be this way... .

There needs to be a calibration of what you "trust" a pwBPD with.  l

If you "trust" a pwBPD that they will never forget... .or act out... .on an important day... .anniversary... .birthday... .etc etc... .that doesn't seem like a good plan... .in my experience. 

Once I accepted that my wife could get a little weird on anniversaries... .and I needed to be ready and not shocked... .it lessened the tension... .she was able to return to baseline sooner... .and anniversaries and big days have gone better.  This last mothers day was essentially drama free.  I saw a little steam let off a day or two before and after... .but I kept moving along... .and was an observer... .not a participant.

then how can you trust them again?

Well... .you just need to do it... .(I can be a bit simplistic sometimes... .) 

Trusting and loving can be dangerous... .in any r/s... .because you are putting your heart out there.  Your heart will get dings and dents in it... .that is part of life.  pwBPD seem to try and put bigger ones in ... .be ready... .deflect the attempts vice fight them.

Final thought:  Once you consistently apply tools... .and you can see that they really do improve the r/s... .that will give you hope.  Hope will give you energy and power to put your heart out there again and trust... .

FF

[an0ught]

Hi DearBFF,

the way I think of trust is in relation to boundaries.

I have boundaries that are protected - there is a watch-tower and there are protection measures in place. These keep unruly elements at bay.

When I trust someone that person is allowed inside a boundary - less watched and defense against abuse is harder. There are benefits to letting other people get closer and there are risks to it.

It you see boundaries as a b&w matter - there is one boundary and it is thick - you got a problem then with trusting. If you see boundaries are concentric rings like an onion extending some limited trust is possible. Certain people are allowed inside certain boundaries. The people that are more unruly have more limited rights.

[DearBFF]

formflier

I've come to understand/realize that stuff isn't about me to an extent, but then I get stuck sometimes where she is mad at me.  So while I can get that it has nothing to do with me, for instance she is projecting onto me her unresolved anger issues towards her mother, she is still mad AT me; not talking to me, snapping at me, etc.  I can avoid the snapping/etc or just brush it off.  The shutting me out completely when I usually don't even know what I did is much harder to deal with.  For instance we just had a good week of interaction, one visit in person (during which she was still mad over something it turns out I didn't actually do) but she did give me a hug when I left, and then a few texts and phone calls.  Then she makes a facebook post that she has a new phone number and asks anyone who wants it to send her a private message.  I did... .days ago, even sent her a snapchat since she said she sometimes doesn't get private messages, followed up with an email because at least I know she checks those almost every day.  Then days go by and nothing... .I talk to a mutual friend who has her new number and can't believe I, her supposed best friend, doesn't have it yet.  Things like are so frustrating I want to bang my head against wall sometimes, , because I want to give her the benefit of the doubt but at the same time it seems that more than likely she has decided she is mad at me over something else (I'm not even going to ask) and was punishing me by not giving me the new number.

As for radical acceptance... .my acceptance is HUGE, .  So much so anyone who knows me can never figure out why I am still her friend when all they see is her treating me like crap.  Most don't know about the possible BPD and I can't tell most of them because it might get back to her.  So I've accepted this as part of who she is but in some instances it is very hard to deal with.  The thing is when we are together, it's fine, even when she is snappy and annoying I deal.  When we barely interact though that's the hardest, especially for my daughter who just wants to play with her best friend, BFF's daughter and doesn't understand why sometimes she doesn't answer the phone and she can't just go play with her.

For trust... .I have definitely realized someone with BPD has things you can trust them with and things you can't.  I really don't know what the things you can trust them with are yet though.  So far because of her use of weed to numb her pain she is no longer allowed to watch my daughter by herself unless she is in public, nor drive her anywhere in her car (since that's where she has been keeping the weed lately).  This is a boundary hubby and I had to make with no exceptions.  For instance my daughter's birthday is coming up though and I am terrified to make plans for our girls to get together because I don't now if I can trust that it will happen and I don't want to let my daughter down.  If it came down to it I'd probably end up having to call her ex-husband who would probably be more than willing to let me pick up my daughter's best friend, but this would infuriate BFF as a betrayal even though it has nothing to do with her and I would be putting the girls first which she can't seem to do right now.

Feedback welcome!     Thanks!

an0ught

Since I have barely gotten to talk to her, basically just got back on speaking terms with her after a month long shut out, I haven't been able to have a boundaries talk with her.  Is it better to have it outright, or just make them up as you go?  The one about my daughter I just called her the next day and said I need to tell you this and laid down the law; she was hurt but did not argue.

I think other than that one I'd only have 2 other boundaries and I think she'll handle both very badly... .

#1 No longer giving into interrogations.  (I totally get this is the paranoid part of the BPD by the way I'm just not sure how to handle it.)

She has a tendency to ask me questions about people I talk to that she knows... ."What did they say?  What did they say about me?  What did you say?"  Then it ends up in a fight because she gets mad at what they said (something very mundane of course with no ill intent meant), or she gets mad at me that I said something I shouldn't (like discussed a fun night out with a mutual friend, things I didn't know were suddenly supposed to be a secret).  The thing is I hate this when it happens, I feel like crap like I'm tattling on the other party or like it's no win for me because it really doesn't matter what I say, she's mad at it and if she misunderstands and I correct her then she's mad at something else.  Now this is coming back to bite me in the butt as I was friends with a coworker of hers and now it sounds like she interrogates that ex-coworker about things we discussed months ago and BFF gets mad at me over them now.  The interesting thing is I'd guess if I turned it on her and asked her about every conversation she's had with someone about me and for details on what they said she'd probably clam right up and say it was none of my business, but if I say that I think she'd just get upset and then think it was because I did something wrong and not talk to me anyway.

Advice on this much appreciated!

#2 Walking away from yelling/raging for both our sakes.  (Again I know this is typical BPD, but leaving seems to make her more mad as does sitting quietly.  I have use SET just recently with good results but she wasn't in full rage just annoyed.)

She gets mad and says a ton of hurtful stuff (I know not to take personally, but it still smarts a bit), and I believe she also dissociates during because she doesn't remember later if I bring up something she said.  In the rage she literally banged her chest and was spraying spit she was so pissed off.  I'm hoping she'd get this one at least, since no one wins in the end with her crying and angry and me crying and hurt.  Not sure how to get away without upsetting her more though.  Last time I said "I love you" as she drove away yelling "get out of my life" and when she heard me she got angry and yelled at me to not say I love you.  I thought that was detaching with love... .So not really sure how to handle this.

I'd love to add a #3 no cutting off contact and/or girls get to still hang out, but that isn't just about me that's more like an agreement/compromise and not a boundary so I don't know how I could get something like this in place.


Thanks again to you both!

I really appreciate it!

p.s. an0ught, I love your idea about the defensive line so to speak of boundaries.  Great thing to keep in mind! 

[Notwendy]

Can there be trust? I think you know your friend's values. With my mother for instance, I know she has lied as well as told other people things I have told her in confidence. I can not trust her with these things. If she tells me something and I need to know the truth, I can cross check her story with someone reliable. I don't share things with her that are confidential.

However, my mother is basically ethical with the big things. I know she might snoop in my house for information about me- like read a letter if I leave it out, but I know she won't steal. She obeys the law. She tries to do the right thing most of the time.

She is basically a good person, with some mental health issues and this is very different from being an evil person with bad intent. Also, she is at her worst with people who are the most intimate with her, but this is because she feels most vulnerable.

My mother has a life long BFF, and there are instances where she is mad at her, won't speak to her. Sometimes she will speak about this friend critically and it sounds like she is talking about herself! Her friend does not have BPD, but the faults that my mother gets irked about with this friend are the ones she sees in herself.

Somehow her friend has learned that this is just who my mom is. I think it is much more fun to be my mother's friend than her child! She can be a fun loving and interesting person, much of the time. Many of her friends say nice things to me about her.

I think her BFF just knows her so well that when she is painted black, she knows mom will come around. These women have been friends for decades. I really think the key to this is that they do care about each other, the friend doesn't take the moods seriously and while it is up and down, I don't think the friend makes much of it.

If the relationship were truly destructive, abusive or toxic, the friendship would not have lasted. I also think it is easier for mom to be friends than in a more intimate relationship. They have their own lives too, don't live with each other and so if they are on a break, it isn't as devastating as in a romantic relationship. I think they have come to care about and accept each other for who they are- not perfect people, but then, who is?

[DearBFF]

Thank you for your response and good question.  That's a really tough one for me to answer... .the problem is that I know what my friend wants her values to be, not what they truly would be in the heat of the moment if that makes any sense.

As for confidential, I've seen her spill the beans about that kind of thing more than once so if I ever had something (I'm a pretty wide open person actually working on boundaries myself) so I never have anything I feel I need to hide.  If say my husband told me something that needed to be private and he asked me not to spread it around, she would be the last one I told if I told anyone.

As for snooping... .I don't know honestly, as she hasn't been to my house in months.  Although I will say at times she has gotten ahold of my phone she has read through my text messages which didn't bother me at the time, but now I would have a real problem with it as sometimes I have a conversation by text about her with a friend or my husband when I'm asking for support or a reality check.  So yes, hmm I wouldn't want her to stumble upon that.  I may start locking my phone when I will be hanging out with her and not give her the code, that seems safe but I am pretty sure she will go for it and have a hissy fit when I don't give it to her.  She will probably accuse me of having something to hide instead of just being respectful of me wanting to respect not just mine but other people's private conversations on my phone.

As for stealing... .I don't think so, again I know she wants to be a person who doesn't steal, but I cannot say for sure she wouldn't because under the right circumstances I wouldn't be surprised if she would.

As for obeying the law... .Well as mentioned above she smokes pot which is illegal in our state, plus I have personally seen her smoke and then get in her car and drive away (once even after a 6 pack of beer as well), all of which would be breaking the law.

I would say she tries to do the right thing most of the time as long is the right thing is what makes her feel good.  Okay that sounds really harsh, but I don't think I can say better than that I feel like that's where she is right now.  She hurts a lot of people with her actions, but I know it is not her intention (probably most if not all of the time), and that her being unaware of it is not selfishness it is the fact that she truly is so overwhelmed with her own emotions she doesn't take the time to see the hurt she causes.

It's hard for me to come up with a baseline because I honestly don't even know where to set it.  I can try to set it for the person I know she wants to be... .Puts her daughter first, keeps her word, not yell, be a good employee, etc, but that'd just be setting myself up for disappointment.  I always give her the benefit of the doubt and remind myself that even when she hurts someone she probably had the best of intentions for herself, because she doesn't yet have the capacity to think about the best of everyone in most situations.  Yet, I am always aware that there is a 50/50 chance she will let me or someone else down, it's probably more but at any given time there is a handful she will come through for and a handful she'll let down repeatedly so it probably evens out.

Standing back and looking at her behavior compared who I feel she wants to be smoking pot is not putting her daughter first as she is going through a divorce and that's the kind of thing she could lose her over, but to her smoking is the only thing that keeps her level (honestly I disagree as I notice she instead seems detached and overly paranoid).  Keeping her word is relative as to whether or not she is "committed" (as she calls) it to whatever she gave her word for; if she is she shows up if she isn't she doesn't, but the person she gave it to doesn't know how she truly feels and usually she doesn't until the last minute either.  As for not yelling, I've seen a huge improvement in this (possibly because she is almost not speaking to me right now so not much chance to yell), but when she loses her cool because she's bottled it up for too long she explodes into a rage; and usually dissociates in addition later not remember most of what she said.  Being a good employee is a tough one as she is a very hard worker, although I've realized this is partly due to trying to escape the BPD because by becoming a workaholic she has less time to be alone with her thoughts/emotions.  She focuses on her job and then can't focus on her life spinning out of control.  Yet, she was smoking weed at the last job, drinking the beer there as well, after which she'd operate machinery and ride horses putting both herself and others at risk, then after having enough of her boss she raged at her until she was fired.  So basically they loved her until they couldn't stand her anymore.

Since you have known your mother all of your life perhaps you have a better understanding of how to figure out her values, I have known my friend less than a year.  I could guess, but I honestly could not choose anything I wouldn't doubt her on.  I could ask her, but either she'd lie or she'd really truly believe what she was saying but it would be the best case scenario "I value x, y, z... ." and leave out the "if it's a Tuesday, in leap year, and it hasn't rained that day" .  In other words she's very hard to predict, but even though I see the best case scenario it's usually closer to the worst case scenario.

What you say about your mom having a lifelong BFF sounds just like my BFF as well.  She gets mad at me for something and then I see her do the exact thing... .

She used to get mad at me for talking to people about my day, about what we did that weekend/etc, and if I said her name she said I was gossiping (or in her words "talking ___", then I'd see her go off with another co-worker about her boss, or rip apart another trainer she didn't like, or tarnish the reputation of a wonderful woman she loves by spilling the beans about her affair.  (To be completely honest I saw instances things I said could have been out of line and I've changed that, the thing is I still say too much for her and she still gets mad at me over things.)

Most recently the incident when she didn't talk to me for a month and I just found out it was because she thought I told a coworker a lie about her.  Her mother posted a facebook message on her status after I commented on one of her photos about not needing backstabbers in their lives, and this while she wasn't talking to me so I can only guess that she was telling people that I was spreading lies about her.  So she was mad and not speaking to me for spreading lies, I did not and while she thought I did she was telling people lies about me telling.  Basically doing exactly what she was mad at me for.  (I do not lie especially to people I love, but I have noticed sometimes I may lie by omission or be dishonest such as take a discount that is given by accident.  I plan on remedying this in the future.  However, I never speak untruths about anyone and if I speak something I've misunderstood as fact that I later find out isn't, I immediately correct it and apologize for the misunderstanding.)

Out of curiosity does your mother go for long periods not talking to her best friend?  If there is a special day like a birthday does your mom still call to wish her happy birthday or does the friend just understand she can't expect that from your mom?

I completely have begun to understand this is part of who she is and accept it, even hanging out with her while she is in a mood (still mad over the thing I didn't actually do) and snapping at me about silly things.  I brush it off and let it go immediately, but it's hard when it comes to my daughter as she doesn't understand yet she hasn't done anything wrong and sometimes cries when she gets snapped at.  Also, with her being in and out of our lives my daughter doesn't understand why she can't see her best friend (my BFF's daughter) and her aunt (which is what she calls BFF) because I've been painted black.

Any advice on how to explain this to her?  (I try to say it's not her fault and quietly whisper to her she did nothing wrong and it's ok thankfully avoiding a crying episode this last time as BFF was at her new job at a barn and the girls are not allowed to cry around the horses or she completely loses it!)

As far as romantic partners/family you are living with vs friends... .Right now she is practically living with new boyfriend which is when she started pushing me away... .one week it was "how did I live without you, you take care of me" the next I could barely get in touch with her.  Well I could go either way with him on my predictions... .Either he's a repeat of ex-husband which would be awful since she is rushing to divorce him so she can marry the new one and pop out a baby so she can be a stay at home mom.  Or he is genuinely a nice guy but their relationship is co-dependent and neither of them could probably live life very well on their own.  I believe a possible repeat of ex because he seems very protective (which seems nice at first, until the controlling comes out), yet I've seen jealousy, and he's even reprimanded a friend of hers on a facebook comment he felt was not positive enough while she was having a hard day.  I believe possibly co-dependent as his last relationship was barely over a week before he called her and the woman lived with him for a year while they'd been together only about a year; and she was an alcoholic which he apparently never knew so he seems to like to fix/take care of people.  Also, BFF has made the comment "We just always assume we are going to do everything together!"  BFF jumped from husband, to me, to boyfriend and whenever husband was cheating she had a new BFF on the side all to help support her; it's like she can't do it alone.  The thing is my understanding is that co-dependent might work for BPD because they'll never leave each other, and if you have ever read the Borderline Mothers book he sounds like a huntsman type who puts her needs above his.  Her first husband was abusive most likely a frog-prince, and probably a narcissist, undiagnosed.

When you were a child did your mother's BPD ever effect any of your friendships?  Did she ever paint a friend's mom/dad black and then you weren't allowed to play with them?  If there was a special even like a birthday were you allowed to go?

This is especially hard for me around special days as the last blow up was on the 8 month anniversary of us knowing one another, and this month is 9 months, not sure if she'll even be talking to me then.  We used to always do something together or at least call/text when I'm not painted black.  Also, next month is our birthdays, ALL of our birthdays.  July 15th is me, July 17th is my daughter, and July 19th is BFF's... .for the first year we were planning to have a party (or at least a fun outing) with our daughter as she's never had a friend to invite before (we had friends before who basically didn't show up when we invited them to things so we never planned anything big and just did a small family party, usually just us).  Now she can invite her BFF and her aunt, but if I'm black I don't think I can count on her coming.  I could probably call her soon to be ex-husband who would probably have no problem with me picking up the little one for a few hours so she can hang out with my daughter, but BFF would see this as a major betrayal and probably paint me black forever as she would most likely find that unforgivable.  Even though I would truly just be putting the girls first.

I had never thought of it that way, values... .I know what mine are after honestly stepping back and looking at some of her behavior and discovering I had some of it in me and I went, no that is not something I want to do any longer.  Then figuring out how to work on it.  We aren't perfect, the thing is she has this sort of impossible ideal of what I should be based on the initial saintly/angel that she believed me to be, and that's not who I am.  I make mistakes, we all do, but when she paints me black to her they weren't mistakes she seems to think/feel that I purposely set out to cause her harm.  I can't seem to discuss it with her very easily as the one thing I would say to a nonBPD would be, "Remember that time you said this and you hurt me?  Was your intention to hurt me by saying it?"  Their response would be no, they are sorry, it was a mistake... .bingo, case and point back to my behavior that upset them and we have a winner.  With her that wouldn't go over well because she'd just get stuck on me bringing up a past hurt and turn into punitive parent mode, "Of course I hurt you!  I always hurt people, why are you even my friend?  You'd be better off without me!"  Not the best idea... .which doesn't leave me much.

Thinking about it... .there is one thing I trust (it's really hard sometimes and I have bad days where any normal person would say to themselves "I'm a complete idiot for believing this), I believe she does love me.  When I saw her in person last she said "I get under her skin" which to me means even though she's standing there fuming as she says that it's because she cares.  If she didn't care not only would I have not been standing there that day she wouldn't have probably ever talked to me again.  It's just hard when you don't feel it, as much as I tell myself she doesn't mean it, the things she says/does still smart a little.  At least if I could talk to her about the BPD issues, then we could have a "you're painting me black" conversation or "please stop the mother transference now" but maybe that's unrealistic.  She is undiagnosed although i plan to talk to her about it because she has asked why she is this way and why she does the things she does so I think she may respond well to it provided I'm not painting black at the time.  By the way if she turns the tables on me saying I have it, I can come back with yep probably do a bit because while I may never have had the full 5/9 to be diagnosed I'm pretty sure I've had each of the symptoms at one point or another and I have a few left.  I just know how to deal with them now... .I'm 32, she is 23!  I got married at 22... .11-22 basically SUCKED, marriage helped a bit, but I'd say the first 5 years or so of our marriage was a HUGE roller coaster! LOL... .so I can be like, yep been there, done that! 

Open to all thoughts and ideas and thank you so much for your response!

[Notwendy]

It's hard to know how my mother interacted with her peers when I was a child because young children are not very aware of their parents' friendships. I would say my mother's friendships lasted somewhat like other peoples'. Sometimes friends grow apart, move on, or people move. Some are close friendships and some are not. Sometimes we need to know when to move on from friends and when the friendship is lasting. Unlike marriages, friendships are not necessarily a lifetime commitment.

Some people are just toxic. If a friendship is causing much difficulty and I find myself upset a lot of the time, then I have to question whether I want to be in this friendship. I have both ended friendships that felt uncomfortable to me as well as had people decide to move on from me. It is hurtful, but I believed it is for the best. Some of my friendships have been circumstantial- like the other mothers on a sports team, but when my kid left the team I didn't see them as often.

With pw BPD, I think we have to assess how much the behaviors affect the friendship. Some people are drama queens all the time, some mainly at home. My parents were concerned with keeping mom's issues secret, so most of her issues were played out at home. How much time does one spend with the friend?  24/7 with mom is different than going out to dinner and to the movies with her. Who else is with you? As my parents got older, they socialized in couples and so the husbands were there too which seemed to be a stable situation.

What are you needing from the friendship? For me, my family is my first priority and I accept that in my friends, so sometimes we just don't see each other or talk often, but when we do, we can pick up without baggage. I have friends that I can lean on and vice versa. I don't have expectations that we remember special days, or have rituals like that, but we do share some good times. For me, personally, I don't want a friendship that has drama, or someone too emotionally needy- but my friends and I are supportive of each other.

I think my mother's issues were played out most strongly at home. She has gone through times where she didn't speak to her friend. It didn't last too long. She has not done  much destructiveness- such a spreading lies or breaking up other friendships with this friend. I have to consider this friend's boundaries too.

I probably tolerated a lot more from my mother than my friend did, as clearly I didn't have a lot of choice as a kid. We don't get to choose our families- but we do get to choose our friends. This is something you can consider- why you are attached to this friend and how much is it worth tolerating her behaviors.

[DearBFF]

How much time does one spend with the friend?

Who else is with you?

What are you needing from the friendship?

why you are attached to this friend and how much is it worth tolerating her behaviors.

I don't spend much time with her now at all.  She works now 7 days a week and boyfriend/daughter come first, which of course I understand and respect.  We used to spend a lot of time together, especially in the beginning and so did our daughters.  In the beginning they were with us all the time, and then we spent more time without them but at her work.  Now she works elsewhere closer to her home so she is never up near where we live and never visits.  I would love to have more good times, we enjoy each other's company and have shared interests.  Also, our connection was/is very deep and we have never found exact same thing with someone else.  It also means a lot to me for her to be a surrogate aunt to my daughter and me to hers, and I value their love for each other and their relationship greatly.  Her behaviors now that I understand me do not effect me nearly as much as they used to.  Right now I'm only dealing with the constant cut off of communication, upsetting mostly where the girls are concerned as my daughter is always asking why she can't go hang out with her friend and see her aunt.  In person I am now used to her snapping and shrug it off, I don't take it personally even if she is seething in anger, I just remind myself I don't have to feel the same way that it is her anger not mine and if I have talked it out with her and apologized for anything on my part I may feel was a mistake I let it go.  I respect the fact that she can't and she will remain seething I just don't let it bother me.  She has always said "Everyone leaves" a typical BPD phrase I believe, but I have no intention of doing so.  When I give my word and connect with someone and love them unconditionally I mean it.  So she leaves, but I stay and I keep in contact even if she doesn't respond.  I still think of her and her daughter, and my daughter and I still buy them silly treats like their favorite candies and we put aside bags of hand me down clothes and books to give them next we see them.  We all used to say we were like family and I meant it, it is not something I just stop feeling.

In the past I had a similar friend I was close to, in the same fashion we had a connection, I loved her like family and at one point she became afraid feeling I was too much (as most do) and she pushed me away and cut off all contact.  Then years later I saw her on facebook and had never stopped thinking about or loving her.  I reached out and she wad delighted and apologized for pushing me away.  We are still friends to this day and she even invited my husband, our daughter, and I to her wedding even though we hadn't seen each other in almost a decade.