Standing Firm in Her Storm 3...

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi MaroonLiquid,

in an enmeshed state people think of the other partner as an extension of themselves. This leads to controlling behavior and automatic attribution of emotions - you do what I say and you feel what I feel. In this state people act egocentric and have a hard time seeing the needs of their partner.

I see what you mean here.

The change in behavior you observed in your wife is a very positive sign.

I thought so too!   

She was thinking through this situation not as one but as a team of two that act independently. It is the result of you becoming stronger and taking a stand. Boundaries are very effective in breaking the sense of being able to control the other side. Your hard work on boundaries is paying off 

I agree.  Even though she has had a major dysregulation recently, it was her first one in a long time.  I think she started to change when I told her very calmly that if she divorced me, I couldn't be friends with her.  When she brought up my ex-wife and how we got along, I explained that we have biological children together and that their happiness and stability come first.  I have to believe that truth hit home with her that I can ultimately "walk away" as they aren't mine biologically.  I didn't say that to hurt her, scare her or because I would just walk away, I said it because it's true. 

We had a good weekend together again in the midst of a tragedy/crisis in her family's life as well as a fundraiser for softball.  Friday night, my wife stayed for the first half of the party while I went to my son's tournament semi-final game.  It was awesome as he won and had to play in the championship game on Saturday.  My wife said she would work the first half of the fundraiser so that I could attend his game (again)and thought that was really nice.  He won his game and after the trophy presentation, I showed up for my shift of the fundraiser and she had to leave.  While she was gone, she called in shock as her sister's ex-husband's brother passed away under very tragic and troubling circumstances on Saturday morning.  They had just found out and my wife called me in shock as they have known each other for 25 years.  I validated how hard that must have been for them to deal with and let her talk.  She said her sister was on her way down and needed her to keep the baby while she helped the family deal with the arrangements among other things.  She showed up to help me tear down the fundraiser for the evening and I just continued to let her talk and asked if she needed me to come be with her until her sister got there.  She said no and that she appreciated me trying to be there for her but she had a bunch to do to get ready for her sister.  We agreed that the next morning I would be at her house to take her car with the stuff for the fundraiser and do the first shift.  She came to relieve me so that I could go to softball practice and then afterwards, we met for dinner.  We ate and then went back to her house and put the baby to bed.  We talked for a few minutes and then we were both getting tired.  We hugged and kissed and I left.  She asked me to text when I got home and I did.  All in all it was a good weekend.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[Grey Kitty]

  You sound great, ML.

You are starting to see one of the really wonderful things about boundaries and validation. When done right, they put the responsibility, choices, and consequences exactly where they belong.

The more negative way of stating this is that you aren't participating in the games she used to play... .and she's finding that they don't work very well for her that way and starting to find better ways to interact with you instead.   

[MaroonLiquid]

You sound great, ML.

Thanks, I am doing pretty well.  I believe I've flushed out her "divorce tactic" and therefore she dropped it.  I don't worry much about her motives at all anymore.  I go about my business and live my life now.  If I want to do something, then I do, if not, I don't.  :)on't really feel any guilt about living my life anymore.  

You are starting to see one of the really wonderful things about boundaries and validation. When done right, they put the responsibility, choices, and consequences exactly where they belong.

The more negative way of stating this is that you aren't participating in the games she used to play... .and she's finding that they don't work very well for her that way and starting to find better ways to interact with you instead.  

Last night was a perfect example.  She is keeping her nephew and he is very attached to me and he wanted me to lay down with him to fall asleep.  He fell asleep pretty quickly and my wife fell asleep next to us.  I woke her up gently and told her I would have the kids lock the door behind me when I left.  She said she was getting up in a moment and would see me out.  I waited about 20 minutes and made sure not to bother her and then decided to leave when I figured she was sleeping pretty hard.  Our daughter locked the door behind me and didn't talk to my wife until today around noon.  She has to know that I respect her and love her enough to not wake her up and also that I'm not going to always wait around either.  I respect myself in that area a lot more now as well.  Another thing is I'm not pushing affection much anymore.  I may put my arm around her or hold her hand, and we've kissed a couple of times, but I am letting her have her space and giving myself some too.  I've noticed how she is looking at me the last couple of days of me taking care of her nephew (mom and dad are both deadbeats and my wife's sister has full custody.  The mom is my wife's sister's daughter), almost as if painting me white.  She almost cries when he calls me daddy.  it is really sad.  Still haven't figured out what to do about our anniversary and how to approach it.  I will figure that out in the next day or two... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I was texting my wife this morning and everything was good.  We were talking about her nephew that she is keeping for her sister who is dealing with the family crisis.  I decided to bring up our anniversary.  I said, "I have been thinking about our anniversary on Friday.  Since it looks like you might still have the baby, I was thinking we could get some take-out from the chinese place we love, rent a movie and relax.  How do you feel about that?"  That was a couple of hours ago and she still hasn't responded.

Here was my thought process.  I was trying to be empathetic and show that I was thinking about the fact that she would have the baby and making it easier on her by getting some food I know she loves and still be able to spend time together.  Also, my goal was to minimize any opportunity she has to feel overwhelmed and possibly dysregulate by making the day a "huge deal" or her being worried about the baby being taken care of properly.  I did what I felt was right considering the whole situation, and I won't ask again.  If she doesn't respond to it, I won't feel guilty, "less than", or feel rejected.  It's her issue, I won't beg and it will be her loss.  I will just do something on my own with my kids and celebrate it my own way at that point.  Honestly, I'm fine either way. 

[Grey Kitty]

  You offered something that seems kind and reasonable.

It is one of those high pressure holiday dates that your wife is 97.5% likely to dysregulate over, no matter what you do.

Good luck.   

[MaroonLiquid]

 You offered something that seems kind and reasonable.

It is one of those high pressure holiday dates that your wife is 97.5% likely to dysregulate over, no matter what you do.

Good luck.   

Yeah, and it should be a happy time.

My wife threw me a curveball last night (regarding our anniversary tomorrow) and feel like it could be a positive.  She never answered my text yesterday regarding bringing some takeout over to her house and taking it easy because she would probably still have the baby.  We didn't talk again until she picked our daughter up from practice.  I noticed the baby wasn't with her and I asked where he was.  She said her sister came and got him yesterday afternoon.  She said she texted her yesterday mid morning (I texted her early morning) and told her sister that she needed to come get him because it was starting to become difficult to work (obviously 2 YO need a lot of attention) and wasn't fair to the kids to be responsible to watch him everyday.  I didn't know how to take it.  I took it as a positive that she wanted to spend time with me without the baby, and at the same time, didn't mention my text and therefore had nothing to do with me.  Thoughts?

[Fian]

Not sure, but here are some options off the top of my head:

Option 1 - Don't celebrate the anniversary - she never responded to your text

Option 2 - Keep to the original plan - Bring Chinese to her place

Option 3 - Suggest a more elaborate plan - the excuse of the baby no longer applies

[Grey Kitty]

Don't propose a bigger anniversary plan.

Anything that smells like you offering or asking for commitment from her goes bad. Very bad.

Either bring take out as you suggested earlier, or do nothing.

Expect her to find a way to blame you for something and dysregulate. Be ready to leave quickly and earlier than you planned... .while still hoping for the best and trying to genuinely enjoy and celebrate.

[GaGrl]

I didn't pick up anything in her reasoning about wanting to spend more time with you. It sounded as if the reason was her need to work uninterrupted.

Are you reading more into her statements than is really there?

[MaroonLiquid]

I didn't pick up anything in her reasoning about wanting to spend more time with you. It sounded as if the reason was her need to work uninterrupted.

Are you reading more into her statements than is really there?

Could be.  I guess a part of me was hoping that she was finding a way for us to spend time together.  

Last night I dropped off my daughter after softball and I stayed for a bit and talked with the oldest daughter being in bed with her (I find that so strange and completely unhealthy that the kids are taking turns sleeping with her every night).  I almost feel like it's her only way of keeping me at a safe distance physically and emotionally (like a built in excuse or a game to see if she can make me mad or just say something to know it bothers me).  it doesn't, and I find it weird at their age.  She then said she needed to "get to bed" (which I take as my cue to leave).  The last few days she is being standoffish with the "side hug" and patting me on the back when just three days ago she was giving me an I love you that was unsolicited.     So tired of the push/pull.  When I was leaving, I said "It's almost our anniversary." and she didn't say anything.  This morning I texted very simply and said, "Today being our anniversary, I pray that God would give you joy and the peace that passes all understanding today." with no response.  I won't bring it up again nor will I feel bad for not celebrating it.  I will not chase her, yet I'm sure I will be the bad guy in her mind for us not celebrating.  It must be a miserable existence to live that way.  Not my problem.  I will spend some quality time with my kids and have fun this weekend.  The sad thing is, I'm beginning to feel less and less for her as this stuff continues.  :)on't know how to feel about that development.  Is that being numb or what?  Or am I just not attracted to the unhelathy part of her now that I have been out of it... .

[formflier]

 

I think this is a healthy development for you.  I think what you texted her was very kind... .loving... considerate... .and wise.

She could flip out over it... .or she could be comforted... .that's not your issue.

Maroon,

Your progress amazes me... .keep up the good work... .the hard work.  The fruit of your work is showing.

Don't worry about your feelings... .just feel them.  You are balancing that with healthy decisions.  This has somewhat confused your wife... .(in a good way)... .keep praying... .keep working hard... .let time and God work on her heart.

Praying you have a good day!

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I think this is a healthy development for you.  I think what you texted her was very kind... .loving... considerate... .and wise.

She could flip out over it... .or she could be comforted... .that's not your issue.

Maroon,

Your progress amazes me... .keep up the good work... .the hard work.  The fruit of your work is showing.

Don't worry about your feelings... .just feel them.  You are balancing that with healthy decisions.  This has somewhat confused your wife... .(in a good way)... .keep praying... .keep working hard... .let time and God work on her heart.

Praying you have a good day!

FF

Thanks.  I started to cry when I read this.  I feel stronger and at times discouraged (rarely now though).  It's hard knowing today is our 5th wedding anniversary and I'm treated as almost a stranger.  Doesn't make me mad because I know it's her issue and I can't do much about it except control myself.  Why do you think this is a healthy development and is confusing her?

[formflier]

Why do you think this is a healthy development and is confusing her?

She has been pressing the buttons that used to get you... .and they don't work

She took a bat to one of those buttons (car)... .and that didn't work.

So... .she is now wrestling (in her mind) with this notion that Maroon is not "broken"... .my r/s is dysfunctional... .so... .who is broken? Or something like that... .

Dude... .take time for yourself... .take a look at some pictures of good times.  Grieve... .cry... .feel your emotions.

Pray for the future... .

Remember... .God says yes... .no... .and "not yet" when you ask for things.  Not yet is very frustrating... .but it is an answer...

 

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You are losing interest in the push pull type games she plays. That is very healthy for you.

You don't participate so she doesn't get as much satisfaction from them either. Perhaps she will make healthier choices. Someday.

Hang in there. You are doing so much better.

BTW. You aren't being treated like a stranger. Strangers aren't actively ignored and given the silent treatment. This is how she treats people close to her.

  Do allow yourself to feel whatever comes up.

[MaroonLiquid]

Why do you think this is a healthy development and is confusing her?

She has been pressing the buttons that used to get you... .and they don't work

She took a bat to one of those buttons (car)... .and that didn't work.

So... .she is now wrestling (in her mind) with this notion that Maroon is not "broken"... .my r/s is dysfunctional... .so... .who is broken? Or something like that... .

Dude... .take time for yourself... .take a look at some pictures of good times.  Grieve... .cry... .feel your emotions.

Pray for the future... .

Remember... .God says yes... .no... .and "not yet" when you ask for things.  Not yet is very frustrating... .but it is an answer...

 

FF

I hear you!  I trust God regardless.

You are losing interest in the push pull type games she plays. That is very healthy for you.

You don't participate so she doesn't get as much satisfaction from them either. Perhaps she will make healthier choices. Someday.

Hang in there. You are doing so much better.

BTW. You aren't being treated like a stranger. Strangers aren't actively ignored and given the silent treatment. This is how she treats people close to her.

  Do allow yourself to feel whatever comes up.

I didn't think of her treating people close to her that way.

So this weekend I've had a blast with my kids.  Took them to see Jurassic World and  then we spent the rest of the day scouting at a softball tournament.  I haven't talked to my wife since I texted her about our anniversary.  It's been nice this weekend to not be involved in her disorder.  I love her very much, but I have lost all interest in playing those push/pull games.

[MaroonLiquid]

Sitting here thinking about us not speaking since I texted about our anniversary, I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.  I know it's part of her BPD traits, but still frustrating... .Its ridiculous... .

[formflier]

I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.

Remember... .language matters... .that's an opinion... .not a fact.

And... we'll never know why she did or didn't do something.

Try to keep your thinking a little... "less deep"... .especially about the why.

She wanted to avoid communication with you... .even after you reached out in a very ... loving... caring... compassionate way.

So... rather than deep thinking it...

I'm going to steal a line from Grey Kitty... .believe her... .she doesn't want to communicate... .leave it at that.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.

Remember... .language matters... .that's an opinion... .not a fact.

I understand what you are saying, and have taken what GK's said regarding "treating people close to her that way" to heart.

And... we'll never know why she did or didn't do something.

Try to keep your thinking a little... "less deep"... .especially about the why.

She wanted to avoid communication with you... .even after you reached out in a very ... loving... caring... compassionate way.

So... rather than deep thinking it...

I'm going to steal a line from Grey Kitty... .believe her... .she doesn't want to communicate... .leave it at that.

FF

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I still have trouble with the fact she couldn't find it within herself to not respond.

Remember... .language matters... .that's an opinion... .not a fact.

I understand what you are saying, and have taken what GK's said regarding "treating people close to her that way" to heart.

And... we'll never know why she did or didn't do something.

Try to keep your thinking a little... "less deep"... .especially about the why.

She wanted to avoid communication with you... .even after you reached out in a very ... loving... caring... compassionate way.

So... rather than deep thinking it...

I'm going to steal a line from Grey Kitty... .believe her... .she doesn't want to communicate... .leave it at that.

FF

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

    In the past, I would have started texting and calling to see if she would talk.  I didn't this time.  It almost feels like a tactic to pull me in so she can put all of her emotion she can't deal with on me.  I checked her facebook.  Haven't done that in so long.  She posted a picture that says, "She moved on and I feel sorry for you, because she overlooked your flaws, your temper, your selfishness, your inability to love anyone but yourself.  She could have anyone in the world, but she still chose you every time.  All you are now is a crease in her past, a scar on her chest, a memory that fades faster than a photograph of you in a sealed box, hidden.  Maybe now she will fight for someone who loves her, instead of someone who sucks the life out of her, never satisfied, even with her beating heart in his greedy hands."  

    Geez, why did I check it?     At least I see that she's dysregulating about something.  Not much I can do at the moment... .I shouldn't have checked it.  Now I feel stupid... .   Also, something weird I just realized.  She called my work number, not my cell phone... .Very strange... .

[Grey Kitty]

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

1. What was it about?

No idea... .her stuff.

2. What should you do about it?

Nothing--what you did was good, and stopping there was good.

3. Why do you suddenly feel guilty?

Probably because you are still working on your own fixer/pleaser/caretaker/codependent/whatever tendencies. It is hard to watch somebody have trouble... .and let them deal with it on their own, especially when you have been trained over years to do something for people in situations like this.

First you realize you should stop doing such things, but it feel s unnatural and uncomfortable. Eventually with practice it starts to get easier and feel more 'normal' to you. Be patient with yourself, you are growing and learning

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife just called me pretty upset.  I didn't recognize it at first and may have been invalidating because of it.  She asked me if I received something from the IRS with her name on it and I said not in a while.  She said she would appreciate it if I did to give it to her.  I said I would.  Then I mentioned I sent her a team email and it "bounced back" saying her email was over quota.  She said she is trying to fix it or something to that effect.  I then said, "It sounds like you are upset about something, are you ok?"  She said, "Yeah, I'm fine.  It's mine to worry about and not your business" or something like that and rather curtly.  I said, "Wife, would you like to talk about it?"  She said, "Just please let me know if you receive anything please" and hung up.  We hadn't talked all weekend and she calls like that... .What the heck was that about?  Was she looking for comfort?  Was she trying to see if I was upset?  Should I just let it go?   Why do I feel guilty all of a sudden, or that I could have handled that differently?  ughhh... .

1. What was it about?

My wife just texted me and told me she got hit hard by the IRS today, had to make a payment arrangement and took most of her recent paycheck.  I tried to avoid this with her when the last time she dysregulated and dented my car and wouldn't agree to anything except blame me.  Everytime she dysregulates, something bad happens to her.  I validated how terrible that was to have happen to her.  She is in a rough spot, but not much I can do.  I hate when bad things happen to her.  I do love her and want to protect her, but know I can't right now.  She doesn't realize it (or maybe she does), but financially, we would be much better off if we lived in the same household.  I won't say it though... .

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife just texted me and asked if I could sit down with her and her attorney in the next ten days to finalize the divorce... .I didn't respond... .

[formflier]

 

Hmm... how do you think you should respond?

If attorney's have been hired... .why not let them discuss this?

As in... .let her attorney communicate with yours... .they talk to the clients...

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Hmm... how do you think you should respond?

If attorney's have been hired... .why not let them discuss this?

As in... .let her attorney communicate with yours... .they talk to the clients...

FF

I forgot to put what she texted before that.  First she asked what I was going to pay of her monthly payment to the IRS (keep in mind I have my own) which is ridiculous and why she is mad.  It's about money!  She is triggered and painting me black and she wants company for her misery.  I'm not going to get my attorney involved unless I have to.  It costs me money.  This is just about her trying to trigger me.  This is part of her cycle.  When she gets triggered during a money crisis, than she tries to put it on me and make me her whipping post.  The sad thing is, she is the cause of her own crap by ignoring it.  I won't be her whipping post.

As far as responding, I don't feel I need to.  At first, I was thinking of responding, "The next ten days don't work for me", then I thought about responding, "Fine, lets get this done because I'm tired of your $hit."  Then once I calmed down, I really feel I need to let her sit with her own stuff.

[joshbjoshb]

Maroon, it's my first time reading your post, I believe. I can see you are doing tremendous progress and that's good for you. But it seems to me that you didn't work enough of yourself.

One of the biggest issues for people who live with BPD that they tend to be pleasers and co-dependents. We don't even realize it ourselves, but we kind of wanting our wives to give us self esteem and self image. They, in turn, can't provide it (and actually do the opposite) and we are getting more upset that our needs are not being met.

If you will be a happy person that doesn't need her emotionally, you will be much better off.

Your anniversary, for example, would have been a great time to be together. But guess what my friend, in order to celebrate you need her and she is not here yet. So you offered, and she didn't respond. This is where you had to stop. But you felt bad, you wanted that closeness (maybe you felt that you NEED it) so you kept on pressing the issue. That wasn't a good idea.

You might have to take some time to mourn the wife you wanted to have and you don't have, but in the end of the process you must come out someone that doesn't need his wife to provide his emotional needs. You are strong, independent, and also compassionate towards your suffering spouse (she really does, BTW), but also understanding that she is not very capable of providing you almost any emotional needs.

I know it's sad but it's the truth. Only when you get that, you can start to be happy.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife called me earlier and asked if I had gotten her several text messages since last night.  She wanted to talk IRS debt.  I told her I would call her back as I was asleep.  She said ok.  I'm feeling anxious because I know she is triggered about money and don't want to fall into old traps.  I'm pretty confident from past history that talking to her right now isn't wise.  I am wise enough to not want to fall into old traps.   .  Hate these cycles she goes through.  She can't see the forest for the trees and everything is everyone else's fault.

For the previous poster, I don't look to her for my happiness and haven't in a long while.  A year ago, I did.  Living by myself for a year has helped me a ton.  I work on myself all the time and better for it.  I'm just sick of dealing with her crap at times.  My needs haven't been met in a long while and honestly, I know she is incapable of meeting those at this point.  I have come to terms with it. 

[Fian]

Since the last conversation about money resulted in her taking a bat to your car, it is probably better to talk on the phone.

[MaroonLiquid]

Since the last conversation about money resulted in her taking a bat to your car, it is probably better to talk on the phone.

Well, I talked with her about it over text.  She asked me for money and I validated her being upset about what happened.  I told her considering we pay for two separate households that I have none extra to give her.  She said, "Are you saying you won't help me and the kids at all?".  I asked her in what other ways besides money could I help her?"  She responded with, "Half of what was taken from me.  If I'm reading your texts correctly, do you not plan on doing anything?  Never mind the last text.  Also you need to sit down with me on Friday and work out everything else!"  She started texting and calling repeatedly (left a message about what time she was available on Friday) and I texted back and said, "I'm spending time with ML's son (which I am) and will text you later."  She said, "You need to stop stalling and take care of this today, ML."  I didn't respond. 

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

I have been following. You are right, your wife is triggered over money issues understandably.

If you can continue to validate how worrying this must be for her, whilst saying NO to anything else, this will pass as always.

Perhaps best over the phone because of the car incident last time.

Remember you do not have to explain your NO, it is just that. Your calm and compassionate  approach with her will help her navigate this current crisis.

[Fian]

My personal approach is to give direct answers (which can get me into trouble   ).  In this case, though, I think it might help as she is not respecting your evasive answers.  If your decision is that you won't be helping her financially, then I think it is best to say it, maybe at the end of a SET.  I would personally give a brief explanation as to why (maybe, your finances are separate now, and you are trying to improve your finances too), however I guess that may be viewed as JADEing.  Personally, I would like to know why a person is telling me No.