more on my dillema - and my healing

[Notwendy]

You cabs also choose to sleep with your wife and resume the physical side of your marriage.

But I thought the sleeping arrangement was an agreed on boundary. Boundaries can be tested. This is where it is hard to enforce them. You probably miss sleeping with her too. But when you break a boundary it makes your boundaries weaker. It's like telling a kid they can't have a cookie and then letting them have one. This could make it harder to enforce your boundaries.

Your other choice was to uphold the sleeping arrangement and sleep at a friends.

I'm not trying to pick at you here. This is you and your wife. But if you wish to sleep with her, don't make this a boundary.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

Or I could have slept on the sofa, or spread a pad on the floor in the adjacent room.  I didn't think of this as a boundary thing, at the time.  I thought of it actually as a safety thing - given the mood of the moment I actually saw *less* of a chance of dysregulating and verbally or physically attacking me if I was in the same room as her.  Something about me being willing to sleep on the floor in the other room just to be away from her I felt would trigger an outburst.   

[Cat Familiar]

Or I could have slept on the sofa, or spread a pad on the floor in the adjacent room.  I didn't think of this as a boundary thing, at the time.  I thought of it actually as a safety thing - given the mood of the moment I actually saw *less* of a chance of dysregulating and verbally or physically attacking me if I was in the same room as her.  Something about me being willing to sleep on the floor in the other room just to be away from her I felt would trigger an outburst.   

If you look at it from her perspective, now everything is back to "normal."

You are choosing your response by calculating what is less likely to lead to her dysregulating.

Sum total of what all of this teaches her is that she can repeatedly physically assault you and you carry on as though nothing happened.

I know it's a ridiculously difficult position for you to be in. It seems like you are waiting for the next assault in order to serve the OOP.

You would like her to express remorse for her behavior and she hasn't.

What do you imagine is going to change?

[maxsterling]

What do you imagine is going to change?

Nothing.  Right now for me is to take things day-to day and hour by hour, and focus on my own safety and mental health.  I've long since learned that my behavior or boundaries have little to do with her behavior or could serve as any incentive for her to change.  It never has.  Not with me, not with previous partners, not with previous friends... .  So me sleeping in the same bed with her really tells her nothing about it being okay to hit me, or that things are back to normal.  I don't think she is capable of learning in this manner right now.  She's already learned that screaming at me and making threats of death leads to me calling police, yet she still does this behavior. 

At most, this past incident taught her that being reliant upon me is not a good life path for her.  Good.  She's back to thinking about working again.  I think this is healthy for her own healing - not the working, but the idea that she owns her own destiny. 

[Notwendy]

You made a choice that worked for you in the moment. From how I see it, most of our decisions in these relationships have short term payoffs and long term ones. The short term ones are doing the same thing we have always done because it works in the moment. The long term ones take hard work and endurance, for if we enforce a boundary, we are likely to be facing their resistance, a rage, extinction burst or some really terrible behavior. However, since a long term payoff is doing something different, not the same thing, it is likely to result in change in some way, at least in us.

The problem is us. They are going to do what they do and we don't have a lot of control over that, but we can choose what we do. Can we hold on to ourselves in the face of their rage? That's a tough thing to do. Sometimes we just can't and that is OK too. If we choose to try it, it is work in progress, sometimes we can do it ,sometimes not, but with practice holding on to ourselves ( and support from a counselor,group, sponsor) we can get better at it.

You made a choice to manage a potential dysregulation in her. Yes, it kept you safe but it also was something you did to manage her- and her behavior is her responsibility. If you had made the choice to not do this, then what could have happened? Well she might have raged and possibly been of harm to you or herself. Then what? You could call 911 again. She might have gotten help, or faced the consequences of her behavior.

I sometimes take the short term payoff too. Sometimes I will give in to something just to avoid a rage. I choose this because I know I am just not up to dealing with it. But each time I do this, I also know I am selling out on what I really want which is change, not the same thing. Being able to hold on to myself in the face of raging is very hard for me, but with practice I have gotten better at it.

If I bring something to your attention Max, it is because I do it in support and with respect that you are in charge of the course of your choices.

We have all been in your shoes one way or another- facing a choice that we either try to keep things peaceful at the moment, or another choice and face a rage. Sometimes it is a work in progress. You are beginning to stand up for yourself. We aren't going to do it perfectly all the time. But I commend you for the steps you are taking to take care of yourself whatever you decide about your r/s.

[Grey Kitty]

I thought of it actually as a safety thing - given the mood of the moment I actually saw *less* of a chance of dysregulating and verbally or physically attacking me if I was in the same room as her.

Warning bells are going off here, max. Just like Notwendy said... .

Here's my take:

1. You were afraid of dysregulation if you stuck to your boundary.

2. You thought that the situation was safe based on her mood at the time.

I don't know how much you were motivated by the fear, and how much by the judgement. I do know that it makes a huge difference for you, which you were doing.

I know that when I let fear of her actions be the primary figure in my decisions, it wasn't good for me.

Please accept that she will continue to dysregulate, probably with full blown suicide attempts, hospitalization, and assaulting you again.

You cannot cause this. You cannot prevent this. Your actions may be involved in triggering it, but when she's building up steam... .she's gonna blow, no matter what you do.

When you realize that you have almost no power over whether this happens or not... .you stop letting the fear of it control you... .and your life improves.

It is for you to say how much the fear influenced your decision, not me... .and figure out how you will cope with it in the future.

Hang in there, and keep putting YOUR safety first.

[maxsterling]

After MC yesterday, an al-anon meeting, and hanging out with my sponsor a bit, I came home, and insisted on sleeping in the other room on the floor.  Actually, it was quite comfortable

My conclusions?  I'm now wishing I had served that OOP last Saturday.  And before that, I am wishing I had pressed charges for assault the night of her suicide attempt.  I decided I have been enabling her behavior, and need to have a firm boundary of "no illegal activity in my house".

MC session mostly went bad.  With her list of demands and making this all about her.  So basically, I see my choices as 1) walk on eggshells trying to meet all her demands, and continue to be abuses 2) end the r/s.  I don't see any middle ground here anymore.  One of her demands was that she never see my friends (the ones that I stayed with a few days) again.  Sorry, not going to happen.  Another demand was that neither of us ever use birth control again.  Sorry, not going to happen.  And if I tired to enforce a boundary "no illegal activity in my house or I call police", that's the end of the r/s too.

So for the next few days, at least, I am going to lay low and put my safety first.  W has 3 job interviews today.  Then I decide whether to get the paperwork for divorce in order, or just serve the OOP.  I think I will wait until at least after group therapy on Monday to decide.  W seem upset that I am going to that, too, and I can't wait for that to be one of her demands, that I not go to group therapy.

Just don't see too many options here. 

[GaGrl]

So your W has firmly stated that she intends to:

1)  Control access to your friends.

2)  Control your use of birth control.

3)  Control your ability to protect yourself against violence in your house.

She is very clear on HER boundaries, and they are incompatible with your boundaries.

And today is Thursday, and you want to wait until Monday evening to make a decision on what to do next.

That gives your W over 4 full days to dysregulate over any of the above issues, or over stress related to finding a job.

What is your assessment of her ability to make it to Monday evening without a rage episode?

[formflier]

  And if I tired to enforce a boundary "no illegal activity in my house or I call police", that's the end of the r/s too.

Max,

Can you clarify this?

Did you tell her about your boundary and she said no... .or did she say that she would not tolerate such a boundary if you tried to enforce it?

Wow... .hang in there.


My impression is you are having good though processes... .you are evaluating the past... .figuring out things you could do better... .and working that into your future plans.

To me... .this seems good... .this seems "right track".

Please clarify what I asked about... .then I may have some more thoughts...

FF

[Verbena]

I'm just speechless that she could make those demands after everything that has happened.   She is really testing you to see how far she can push you now.  

Anything could happen before Monday.  A physical assault is a certainty in my opinion.  

Please be careful.

 

[sweetheart]

Why are you waiting max, what purpose does it serve ?

[Notwendy]

Max, I would like to see you address these expectations clearly, as if you were speaking to your wife. In the moment of a dysregulation, one can lose clarity while dealing with the drama. I think these episodes cause us to question our own feelings since it is hard to focus on us, while we are focused on them.

You may wish to also keep a copy for yourself, to read so you can hold on to yourself. You don't need to respond to your wife about these requests. In fact, it may be wiser not to. By doing this, you are talking to yourself. Telling yourself what you wish to do. Holding your boundaries is something you do for you. This is in a way, a message to yourself about what those boundaries are.


So your W has firmly stated that she intends to:

1)  Control access to your friends.


2)  Control your use of birth control.

This is a most revealing request. Well you know darn well that she plans to have sex with you if this is on her mind and she's not going to use birth control and she's going to probably have a fit if you even try to use a condom, rip it off, put holes in it.

What do you plan to do about this?

3)  Control your ability to protect yourself against violence in your house.


A clearly written response to this can help you get clarity. Why write it here? Because there are a lot of wise and objective readers here who can be your editors and advisers with your responses.

[formflier]

  She is really testing you to see how far she can push you now.  

Remember... .there is a "childlike" or teenager like quality to many BPD traits... like they didn't grown into adulthood.

Teenagers push boundaries... .and... in reality... they are happier... .more secure when parents push back (IMO)... .enforce rules.

I see a similar dynamic here... .even if she doesn't consciously think think this way... .the has found a boundary... and is seeing if it is real... .

Here is the question... .thing to be prepared for... .

Is this the height of the extinction burst... .or... .is this somewhere in the middle.

FF

[maxsterling]

Good things to think about.

Why wait till Monday?

Again, I see no future in this r/s in the status/quo.  But monday?  Let's see:

1) I feel fairly safe right now.  I think she has plans for all of Saturday, and I have plans for all of tonight.  

2)  My #1 goal right now is taking care of myself in the RIGHT NOW.  I've got some work stress right now that I need to focus on, so the least energy I can devote to the r/s issues, the better.

3)  Monday is my first group therapy.  Somehow I am feeling going to that will help me heal and regroup and find my center.  Again, I think my health depends on me focusing on me right now, not on the r/s or the end of the r/s.

I don't see another assault or major dysregulation coming in the next few days.  

As for my boundary - in hindsight I could have stood up for myself more in MC yesterday when she said that if I called the police on her again she was filing for divorce.  I instead thought this was one of these boundaries that is best not stated.  I could have responded, "That's fine.  If you assault me again, I will be happy to sign the paperwork."

[Notwendy]

IMHO, I don't think it is necessary to talk about your boundaries with her. I think that whatever you say will go into her dysredulated thinking as something else.

Boundaries are really only enforced through actions, not words, discussions, arguments. She doesn't need to hear that you will call 911 if she dysregulates, but if this is your boundary, then you need to act on it if she does.

There is no need to discuss or debate birth control if you are not sleeping with her. If there is a boundary about that- and you sleep in your own room with the door locked, then birth control is not an issue.

The only need for birth control is if the two of you are having sex. You decide your part in that- and you will need to protect your boundary about that, because it is pretty clear that she won't respect that boundary.

Or the other ones... .

This part is about you, not her.

[Verbena]

You have all the ingredients for a perfect storm, Max, and you are directly in its path.  Just my opinion, but you are less safe now than ever. 

[maxsterling]

Wendy, regarding your point 1-3 above, here is my feeling:

I will continue to hang out with these friends.  I may even invite them to our house.  Up to her how she wants to participate.

Regarding sex, I am allowed to say NO.  

Regarding violence - I simply call police and have the protection order served.

My feeling is that I have control over these issues.  

[Cat Familiar]

Max,

I hope you take many of our comments in the spirit of trying to protect you from further violence or emotional suffering. I wish someone had said some of these things to me when I was with my first husband; it would have saved me from years of anguish.

I recently saw my best friend from college and she confessed that she really disliked my first husband (before we were married). I asked her why she didn't say anything and she replied, "It wouldn't have made any difference."

I told her, "Yes it would have. He glommed onto me and I really wasn't that into him, but I thought it was fate and I just went along with it."

If someone whose opinion I valued had taken me aside and told me what they really thought of him, I would have been much more likely to have ended it sooner. As it was, I did end it fairly early and he moved out of state, but then he moved back and convinced me to return with him.

Had I had someone else's overview of him, there would have been no way that I ever would have re-entered that mess. There was someone, a rather obnoxious guy that knew him and made a derogatory comment about him that was spot-on. But because he didn't have much credibility with me, I didn't take it as seriously as I would have if it had come from a friend. But I do remember exactly what he said many years later and he was absolutely right.

So please, given that your wife has been violent to you repeatedly, consider staying with your friends this weekend. Undoubtedly she knows something is up, so please watch your back.

[Notwendy]

It may or may not make a difference, but I think we say what we say because we believe it to be true. If I was to say " yes, you are out of danger" it would be a lie because I don't believe it.  However, I still have to respect that Max will decide according to what he believes.

One thing living with people with BPD was that I had to really do things that made me uncomfortable. I see where Max is erring on the side of kindness. I also am uncomfortable enforcing boundaries strongly. I didn't feel I had to do it, and if we are dealing with someone who also has good boundaries and respects boundaries, we don't need to.

However, with people like my mother, and sometimes my H, who do not have good regard for interpersonal boundaries, I had to develop stronger ones because they test every boundary and they would run over my "niceness". Also to be "nice" to my mother - in her terms- was to enable her. That, in the long run, is not in her best interest.

Control is a hard thing to achieve in the face of their rages. For some people, we can say "no" and they will say OK, but not with someone with BPD. When my friend is over, we don't have to hide items like letters because she doesn't snoop and read them. However, my mother will go around the house looking for personal things like letters or bank statements and read them. We can say don't do this but it doesn't work. She either rages and denies it, and she keeps doing it. We learned that- a) she does not come over  or b) we lock our personal items up. We can not have the same boundaries with mom that we have with a friend we trust.


So back to Max's statements:

I will continue to hang out with these friends.  I may even invite them to our house.  Up to her how she wants to participate.

Are you prepared for the possible rage and scene she will cause when you invite them over?

Regarding sex, I am allowed to say NO.  

No to what? To sleeping in the same room? No to sleeping in the same bed? No when you wake up with her naked on top of you? When do you say no exactly? I get that you are allowed to say no, but when can you say no and also deal with the consequences- raging, and more.

This is a fuzzy boundary. We all know that two people in the same bed are more likely to have sex than when they sleep in different rooms.  You know that at a certain point of togetherness things go in that direction. It isn't our place to tell you where to draw the line, but I don't see a firm boundary here.

Regarding violence - I simply call police and have the protection order served.

If you mean this, then do it, because I think there is likely to be a next time.




Is your suitcase packed by the door?

You have a good plan in theory, but what are your plans for what she could do in response to you standing by your boundaries?

I know you have a lot going on and need to take care of yourself, but knowing your boundaries well is going to help you take care of yourself.

[formflier]

As for my boundary - in hindsight I could have stood up for myself more in MC yesterday when she said that if I called the police on her again she was filing for divorce.  I instead thought this was one of these boundaries that is best not stated.  I could have responded, "That's fine.  If you assault me again, I will be happy to sign the paperwork."

I think you did the right thing... .adding things to this would have been an argument.

She is trying threats... and is frustrated they don't work... .

Don't do the same... just take action... .much more effective... and gets the point across...

FF

[Grey Kitty]

  good job on the boundaries you are sticking to. And also on recognizing that you only need to act to enforce them; no need to notify her about them (again) or debate them with her.

BTW, if she made those demands, no seeing friends, no BC, etc in MC and the MC didn't object to anything... .I would say that your MC is 99.95% useless!   


Max, you were asked "why wait" and I was wondering the same. I read your answers.

#3 about focusing on yourself and your healing, not the r/s or ending it seems like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

It doesn't do much good to heal a cut when you are still there with the person holding the knife about to give you a new cut any minute.

You need to feel safe before you can heal from what this relationship has done to you. Your feeling that a full dysregulation or assault isn't likely tomorrow because she has plans to be out most of the day is NOT the same thing as being safe.

Your optimistic postings here sound kinda like "I don't expect the other shoe to drop for a few days".

Hang in there, man!

[formflier]

 

BTW, if she made those demands, no seeing friends, no BC, etc in MC and the MC didn't object to anything... .I would say that your MC is 99.95% useless!   

Yeah... .I'm wondering about this too. 

Can you describe how the MC tries to "rein her in"?  Or does he... (or she... can't remember)

That would have been a great time for a "help me understand why I shouldn't... .xyz"... .

Might... .might... have gotten somewhere deeper... .but I doubt it.

FF

[GaGrl]

 proClaiming in here also about that MC... .wow.

If the MC heard those 3 conditions and didn't call your wife on being out of line, what good is he/she?

[Notwendy]

Just an idea, but one reason the MC may not have said much was to let her talk so as to see the whole picture. Saying anything to her may have resulted in her shutting down or raging. However, treading lightly on her may have created a sense of safety for her to actually speak up and reveal more of her agenda.

Therapists are aware that pwBPD can lie in therapy and they have been fooled by them. One concern I have along with her not calling the wife out on these demands was the MC discussing trying for a baby. This would make me think that she has been won over by the wife's side of the story and is not really advocating for Max at this point.

I am not a marital T, but I think the objection is to not take sides. It would be disturbing if the MC was siding with the wife turning MC into a possible triangulation.

It may not be a total loss as some marital T may be better than none, but Max can have his eyes wide open in this one. Trust your gut Max.

My guess is that trying to change MC at this time might not go over well, especially if the wife feels this T is on her side, and could be suspicious of a new one and assume that one is on Max's side. Max can stay aware that this MC may not be advocating for him, however, he can have advocates and advice from his support group, and personal T, DV counselor,  and consider that they have his best interest in mind when he hears their advice.

[maxsterling]

Thanks for all the comments, everyone.

Still sleeping in the other room.  Still being "kind", but not giving up too much.

Interestingly, she had 3 job interviews yesterday.  She was offered 1 job.  I did not hear any lines about chronic pain, feeling incapable, etc.   I was supportive as I could be, and congratulated her.

As for the comment about healing while I am still here- I understand that.  I don't have a bag packed, but I am considering buying a lock set and keeping it in the trunk of my car. Reason for no bag is that if it get to the point of me needing to sleep elsewhere again, I simply have the order served, and she will have to pack a bag.  The locks are for changing once she is gone.

My feeling about still being in this (for now) is less like a cut that won't heal when the knife is still present, but analogy of trying to swim across a large lake, and finding a small island to hang out on and catch my breath before the final swim.  As I told my T yesterday, her "demands" in MC basically make the r/s dead.  I see that as impossible conditions, and to move past that would require something impossible out of her. 

[maxsterling]

Wow.  She's starting with the same old crap via text message today.  And here I was thinking the ice had somewhat thawed.   Somehow, she's got it in her mind that I am trying to control her again.  I think it has to do with being offered a job, and her thinking that I have somehow forced her to work or am somehow controlling her career.  I've mostly ignored the messages.  I think she is at T now, but I think it wise to keep a careful eye on this.

[Notwendy]

I have heard it said that the best predictor of behavior is old behavior. Nothing has changed for your wife. It looks to me like you are considering some actions to protect and take care of yourself. Good for you.

But your wife has a tool box of behaviors that she uses because they work for her- raging, dysregulating, suicide threats, all have kept you in fear and doing things to manage this and keep the peace. Now, if you withdraw your caretaking behaviors- which you seem to be doing- she is first going to pull out the tools that worked in the past- the same old cr*p that she does- as you say it.

However, you, by getting support from T , your group, and the DV adviser and taking steps to take care of yourself, upholding your boudaries and standing firm in the face of her dysregulations are learning new tools.

[maxsterling]

Thanks, wendy.  I of course am immediately triggered by her behavior this morning.  Good thing is she has T.  And then plans for this afternoon.  Another good thing is that last weekend when this went on, I mostly ignored it, and she calmed on her own.  I'm just soo tempted to react here, and just be done with it all, ASAP.  It's a slow day at work.  I think I will take a loong walk right now, clear my head, and leave my phone at my desk.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Maxterling, I've been following your threads and just wanted to send you a big "hang in there!". You're doing really great with this.

[formflier]

 

In a dysfunctional way... .she is right.

You are trying to control... .that she doesn't have complete control.  To her... .she is right.

Just remember that...

You are doing the right thing... .

FF