High functioning issues and recovering

[Sunfl0wer]

I wonder if others with more higher functioning partners or pw more traits vs official diagnosis can relate... .

I feel that for me, things were especially confusing in the beginning.

The red flags literally were not waving around.  My ex and I are from opposite cultures and much of what I look back on and try to find the red flags, actually can be accurately explained by some cultural and normal range personality differences.

It really, honestly, wasn't until we moved in together that  began to surface.  Looking back, without FOG, and with clearer eyes, the dysfunctional dynamics only surfaced clear enough for anyone to see about 4-6 months after living together. (IMO)

Now, this has bothered me greatly and I have pondered on it A LOT.

I have wondered how could I have done things different with 20/20 hindsight?  This is important to ponder as I prefer not to ever have to live with someone for half a year before discovering that a dysfunctional dynamic will ensue.

So I did come up with something that is NOW evident, that was not clear to me that first year together. (Before we moved in)

What is now clear to me is... .

L Our motivations were always different!

I was always motivated by growth.

He was always motivated by judgement.

What I mean is, if we had conflict, I was happy and content to face it, to work together, to build a bond on a shared cooperative effort for growth of us as individuals, and growth for us as a couple together.

Whereas, he was motivated to appear good!  He only worked to resolve things just so I could see he would give effort.  Just so he can tell himself, "see, my exW said I can't work with others, she was wrong." 

Well, as things moved along, and things changed, circumstances and situations happened, the thing that never changed was... .

I was still motivated for growth,

Whereas he was still motivated for judgement.  (Even tho he changed and stopped wanting my approval... .it was still NPD about "being Mr. Good guy."  Always about who was right who was wrong.)

Now that I think of it... .

ALL of his current r/s fit this same theme, every single one.  He has friends at a safe distance and sees them when he is viewed as "good" to them.  (So no one would really notice any PA behaviors)

So my new lesson I think I take from this... .

Is it is not enough to observe a persons actions.

To find out what is truley in their heart, you need to somehow find access to their motivations.

I know many say... .

Listen to their actions, not their words.

However, I now say... .If the person is very high functioning, it is NOT enough to just listen to their actions. 

You need to somehow discover their ultimate motivation!  (Now on to ponder how to discover THIS too!   )

A person can appear to be cooperative, appear to value growth, but if their motivation is to look good in someone's eyes, look good in their own eyes, the actions and behaviors they are showing can be exactly the same as a person who wants a deep committed partnership.  Sometimes there is NO difference in the behaviors!

Does this make sense?  I hope I explained this well enough!

[fromheeltoheal]

I get your point Sunflower, the behaviors are more important than the words, and the motivation for the behaviors is more important than the behaviors themselves.

To me it's about living authentically, and I have plenty of personal experience with this.  If I'm not feeling good about myself, comfortable in my own skin, I'm going to look externally for validation because I'm not able to validate myself in that moment, and in my youth that went on for years.  So I'm going to strive to 'look good' to others to get that validation, and it worked to an extent, but it was hollow because I was acting inauthentically, so the 'me' getting validated wasn't the authentic me, and I'm sure whomever knew that.  It took a long time and a lot of growing up to say to someone "I'm not feeling very good about myself right now", and the folks who can hear that and support me through it without judgement and few and far between.  Such is life, I'm good with it, as long as there's a few.

Anyway, what jumped out at me was your comfort in the relationship and your desire to grow closer, so you would dive headlong into issues, where his discomfort with himself, and therefore the relationship, would motivate his need to 'appear good', which could be a need to external validation or it could be a compensation for 'appearing bad' to himself, or maybe a combo of those.

And of course communication is important.  :)id you ask him what his motivation was for needing to be right?  Or needing to appear good?  :)id you ask him what it would mean is he was wrong or appeared bad?  

Someone's motivations become clear once we get to know them, but even though they're clear we may never discuss it, and that's something I'm personally trying to change.  I have a friend I get in constant debates with, and I have theories as to why, but we haven't had that conversation yet, she's someone I don't see that often and we're not that close, but I still consider her a friend.  So we were having one of our debates, about everything under the sun, and she wasn't backing down that day, extra motivated to be right, and finally I said "you sound like you need to be right", and instead of negating or debating it, she stopped talking entirely.  This is interesting to me and is an opening to something deeper, who knows, but those conversations are definitely a step up from mindless bantering.  :)on't know if that applies to this thread but it came to mind.  

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow!  Thank you!

You make a lot of sense.

It is definitely about being authentic!  It is exactly that!

Hummm... .so now I just need to be able to spot when people are being authentic.  And of course, when they are not.

I think it will help me to ponder how I do with this myself... .

I feel that I am often quite authentic, however, at times when I am nervous, I can honestly say that I am not always and can be guarded, or accidentally people please.  However, it is more typical of me that I do tactfully/politically speak up when it comes to my values even when I know that others have differing views.  I would say that for the most part, I am being authentic at any given moment, however, I do have an occasional bout of public social anxiety that can lead me to accidentally people please

Anyway, what jumped out at me was your comfort in the relationship and your desire to grow closer, so you would dive headlong into issues, where his discomfort with himself, and therefore the relationship, would motivate his need to 'appear good', which could be a need to external validation or it could be a compensation for 'appearing bad' to himself, or maybe a combo of those.

I always am seeking and have always valued personal growth.  I assume that because of this desire force of mine that I would NEED to have a partner that also seeks growth and understanding.  Otherwise, I could "outgrow" my partner?  However, I may need to revisit this made up idea of mine... .idk.

I have felt and do feel that through resolving conflict, arises strength and cooperation, however, this is just my current belief based on my own life's observations.  The strongest and most meaningful relationships that I have had over my lifetime were ones where there was an issue that we worked to overcome and enjoyed the process of that work. (Sometimes the conflict was between us, sometimes not) However, I am also currently at a point now, where I am willing to revisit my long held thoughts and beliefs.

And of course communication is important.  :)id you ask him what his motivation was for needing to be right?  Or needing to appear good?  :)id you ask him what it would mean is he was wrong or appeared bad?  

Yes, I have asked him about being right, he would get angry and disagree.  He would say that it was ME who wants to win, be right vs work together.  If I asked him what it would mean to be wrong, he would simply state that he is ok with that, likely followed by lashing out that I am the one afraid to be wrong, he has no issue with that, or I am just not making sense, he cannot understand my silly questions, to stop messing with him.

I did also try phrasing it not in terms of good vs bad, instead model in my language what I was wanting:

I want us to/I know we can... .Partner up, work together on this and be strong.

He could agree... .(People pleasingly, not actually understanding my meaning)

Or he would go against it... .(Blaming ME for us not partnering and him not needing to be shown a way)

See?  Still a competition.  Still me vs him.  Enmeshed or against.

"you sound like you need to be right", and instead of negating or debating it, she stopped talking entirely.  This is interesting to me and is an opening to something deeper, who knows, but those conversations are definitely a step up from mindless bantering.  :)on't know if that applies to this thread but it came to mind.  

It sounds like she understood your perspective and was stopping to prove you wrong! LOL!  So in her head, she can think: Well, there, see... .I stopped!  I'm not trying to be right!  OMG!

[going places]

I know many say... .

Listen to their actions, not their words.

However, I now say... .If the person is very high functioning, it is NOT enough to just listen to their actions.

You need to somehow discover their ultimate motivation!  (Now on to ponder how to discover THIS too!   cheesy)

A person can appear to be cooperative, appear to value growth, but if their motivation is to look good in someone's eyes, look good in their own eyes, the actions and behaviors they are showing can be exactly the same as a person who wants a deep committed partnership.  Sometimes there is NO difference in the behaviors!

Does this make sense?  I hope I explained this well enough!

If actions speak louder than words, than inaction is deafening.

My ex should get an academy award. His ability to perform on stage is show stopping; but once you got him behind closed doors, where no one else could see or hear... .then the REAL ______ showed up.

However, as he has aged (especially after age 40) his mask tends to 'slip' now and then.

He's been thru 5 jobs in 5 years... .Fired from 1, was told by another to find employment elsewhere (they were too kind) and quit the other 2... .

Everything he did was for show.

It's stunning how many people he had completely fooled... .for years... .