Controlling with kindness

[Notwendy]

This topic was brought up in another thread, and it is something to discuss. When are we being kind, and when are we being co-dependent?

This is a concept that I struggled with, especially in a relationship because I think one should err on the side of kindness. Sometimes we are in a bad mood or not feeling like it, but we do things for the sake of the relationship. Sometimes we do things out of obligation- like send that relative's kid a graduation card- because-well it is the right thing to do at the time, even if we are not close to that family.

We do things to reciprocate a kindness, and then we do things out of genuine giving.

But we also do things we really do not want to do- to keep our partners from raging. This is controlling their emotions. For years I cooked dinner and said yes to sex, because I knew that the evening would be peaceful. Sometimes though, doing the very same thing was being genuine. How do we know?

I check in with my feelings- the key is how much I resent doing it. When I was "keeping the peace" I was also resentful. Still, sometimes it is better to err in that direction.

I found that the more resentful I am, the more dishonest  I am being in a relationship- because I am doing something with the motive of controlling the other person. Any thoughts?

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[Daniell85]

ok, I am new here.

Right now my long term boyfriend is giving me silent treatment after a fight he started two weeks ago. I became very upset because in his arsenal of fighting, he likes to block me on social sites, refuse to answer emails, telephone. We are long distance, and have Skype. So atm, he is sitting on Skype, popping in and out, refusing to talk, refusing to acknowledge me. The rest of the time he is randomly blocking me there, or hiding his presence under the status of "offline".

I have no idea what he is doing, really, except I feel pretty messed with. After a couple of days of what I now understand as me having an existential burst ( trying to talk to him on Skype, getting ignore, me getting seriously upset and having meltdowns), I have gone quiet. A couple of kind comments to him last Monday, Wednesday, have yielded nothing.

So I am saying nothing. I am pretty upset. I resent the heck out of him for what I currently am thinking is mean, ugly, manipulative stupidity. I want to kick him from Skype, I want to tell him all over again, using a lot of cuss words, what I am feeling and thinking about what he is choosing to do.

But, I read here, and a couple of people here... told me that when a disordered person is giving silent treatment, or are upset in the way HE gets upset, it's because they can't handle their own emotions. Then I feel bad for him. And I don't want to make it worse. At the same time, he's probably done this to me about 30 times in the last 4 years. And he's done some other really painful things. All of which were for his own enjoyment, but were really destructive to me.

I am having a really hard time right now handling my own feelings. And he appears to be off somewhere hanging out with other people and having a good time. While I am sat here miserable and hurt and mad trying to do a dozen things to distract myself. Just to keep from lashing out at him and making it worse.

Maybe I understand what you are saying. If I were genuinely in a place of believing that this behavior he is doing is truly not personal, that somehow it's all my fault, and that he is simply doing it to try and hurt me... .I could probably get on with things under the idea that when he calms down, I can be more effective than I have been. Compassion for the person who has hurt me more than anyone in my life ever has.

I am not there. I really want to kick him from Skype. If I do, though, I am scared he will be gone for real.    I feel controlled and like I am controlling, when a lot of the time, I just want this over and him GONE.

Then I don't.

Sorry for my mixed up posting.

[Notwendy]

One of the underlying emotions towards " controlling with kindness" is fear. Our fear- and fear of abandonment keeps us hooked in these relationships.

This is the staying board, but IMHO for us choosing to stay, but wanting change in the relationship- we have to accept the risk that our partner may choose to leave us or stay if we change. Actually, in any relationship one or the other can choose this. This is scary, but it is a fact that relationships can continue or end, depending on the choices of the other person.


I agree that the ST is because a person can not manage his/her emotions, but I do not have sympathy for the ST, nor do I want to be the recipient of it. Patricia Evans' book on verbal abuse defines this as a form of abuse, and I agree with her. It was the favorite MO of my mother and also my H. As a kid, I felt tortured by this, and as a spouse I did too. Why did my H do it? I don't know why, but I do know that it worked. It worked because I would raise the bar on affection, contact, plead with him and this put him in control and reinforced his reasons to do it. It was punitive.

This pattern was very hard for me to get a grip on myself with. Since it was a punishment used on me as a kid, my emotional response to it was huge. I knew that this was a key to why it worked so well with me. I could not change my H or my mom, but I could disempower this by not reacting to it. It took a long time to learn not to react. I had a  lot of help from a co-dependency sponsor to do this, but the incidences of ST have gone down a lot since, well, they don't work. If someone is doing it, that is their problem and I can ignore it.

I don't know why your BF is doing this form of ST, but it must work for him.

[waverider]

it can be likened to feeding the snake. The snake responds, but it gets big and stronger, and eventually more dangerous.

Sometimes we are trying to project kindness taking the principle of "doing to others as you have them do unto you" to extremes in an attempt to make them kinder.

The question you need to ask yourself is how does this make me feel. Rewarded? Worthwhile? Safer? Martyr like? Resentful? Unappreciated? Angry? Owed?

[foggydew]

hmmm... .kindness... .yes, I agree in my life there have often been things I have done although I really didn't want to, but they were not out of kindness. Calculation more like. Sex so that I could get some sleep. Comforting husband so he didn't rage too much. All for my own ends, not kindnesss. But  we eventually formed a good relationship. Now my husband is dead, so those things aren't applicable any more.

But what is applicable is a poem my grandmother gave me.

I have to live with myself, and so

I want to be fit for myself to know... .

I don't want to stand in the setting sun

And hate myself for the things I've done. (Edgar Guest)

I am kind for me. It is one of my values. One I have no intention of changing, for anyone.

[Notwendy]

I agree that we can uphold our values. That Golden Rule is a good one. Sometimes this means taking the higher road in a conflict.

But we have to look at "taking the higher road" and "kindness" critically. Sure, in every couple "taking it for the team" in sex happens sometimes because sometimes we are not in the mood, but we are willing, and that is OK. But when we say yes, when we mean no- and do something for the purpose of controlling a rage, are we really being kind, taking the high road- or are we being self- serving, buying peace for ourselves?

Sometimes the Golden Rule can mean letting the person grow- to be responsible for their own emotions and not rely on us to do it for them. We are all familiar with the concept of "tough love" with kids and it is hard as a parent to say no and watch them tantrum. But we know this is important to teach them to manage themselves.

Sometimes kindness is really enabling. It is actually not good for our partners. It is not kindness at all.

Do unto others can include doing what is best for them, not for us, and that is to not enable them, even if this means they accuse us of being the bad guy.

[Daniell85]

I've bought a lot of peace in this relationship. Essentially if I don't, boyfriend rages and gives silent treatment. If he is really upset, he blocks, discards AND gives silent treatment. He does this universally to everyone.

I don't think being kind to him is changing his base level of self hatred and rage at the world. I don't know what would help him for real at all.

[Notwendy]

I like Waverider's analogy to a snake.

Being kind to someone with the intention of making them kinder is not always effective. If that person is kind too, then there is some reciprocity.

IMHO, an aspect of co-dependency is to do something with the intent to change, control, or modify- someone else's behavior. This may not work, and also results in us feeling trapped and resentful.

Daniell85- your BF is raging, giving you the ST, because this works for him. If you can let him be with his own bad feelings, not contact him when he is giving you the ST and going about your business without him, he will either have to learn new behaviors or find someone else that the ST works on. As long at the ST works for him, he has no motivation to do something different. Only when you stop doing things to calm his behavior and keep the peace will he be faced with his own feelings, as he feel better when he has someone to sooth them for him.

[Daniell85]

thank you for your comments, notwendy, I literally feel I have no choice but to handle the situation as you suggested. He can go months and months this way. I feel very anxious.

[Notwendy]

Well, if he can go for months, then so can you. The ST is his choice. You don't have to participate in this.

He may try to hook you back into this, contact you, and so on, yet you can decide on your own what you want to do based on your feelings and wishes, not what he does.

It helped me to get support during the ST for my own feelings and anxiety. If you have not so far, consider getting your own support, therapy, to help you with your anxiety.

This may be what is enabling him to keep you hooked in this push pull thing. You may find that you have some clarity about the situation by getting support from an objective therapist.

[Daniell85]

He doesn't want me. I doubt he will come back around. He did this last year (2014) in the spring and 4 months later, I called him. He answered, and we started talking again. It's always been me who reaches out.

I feel very low, and I think maybe I never really mattered. Probably as you advised, I need to work with a therapist to manage how this hits me.

[Surg_Bear]

I have a real problem with this issue, but I believe it is one that may just be semantics.

What is is the difference between co-dependent and interdependent?

Can pure altruism ever exist (outside of giving one's life for another)?  The way I see it, altruism always provides the "giver" some sense of something positive for engaging in the giving.  So there is only one true selfless act- dying for someone.  If some agent says one of the _Bear family must die.  If I allow myself to be chosen to die, instead of my children, this is a true act of altruism.  If I give $500,000 to bpdfamily.com; my donation might benefit thousands of people (There's no way I could actually afford to do this, but I have donated, BTW) but I GET something out of it.  I feel good about the giving.

[Only marginally related to the topic:  Have you all given to BPD family.com?  Does this website help you?  Can you give back?  Please do.  For whatever your reasons.  This place is helping me, and I am sure it is helping you.  Give what you can today.  Give more, when you can tomorrow.]

I find the whole co-dependency model of human relationships to be pathologizing of people.  Is there room for true dependence on another human being, if we all are enablers to our loved ones?

What if my spouse had MS and was confined to a wheelchair and something fell out of his reach?  If I was nearby, I would think nothing of picking it up for him.  He is unable, I am able, therefore it is right to do it.  I pick it up- he feels better, and so do I.  I get the concept that perhaps the dropping might be intentional- to eliminate a pathological fear of abandonment, and to unduly and unfairly control me by expecting me to pick it up, to "prove" that I will not abandon.  I also get that I may have a pathological need to pick it up because this was a survival strategy when I was a little boy, and it was all I could do to survive an inhumane and horribly abusive childhood.  Both of these instances are pathological reasons for entering a situation where a receiver receives from a giver (and a giver gives to a receiver).

But... .what if the thing that is dropped is the Ventilator tubing?  What if the dropped thing is essential for life?  What if tough love would result in death? 

Would it ever be OK in that situation to say, no, the reason your breathing tube is on the ground is because you are controlling me into providing a display of non-abandonment?  Enjoy your last breaths, you oxygen addicted MF.  My co-dependency ends today.

What if the breathing tube keeps falling on the ground because of some uncontrollable manifestation of the disease process itself? It the situation any different?

I don't know the answers to these questions, and I am definitely NOT trying to be a a-hole here.

The BPD sufferer has an illness.  This illness manifests in very predictable and generalizable behaviors, meaning the symptoms and traits that most, if not all, BPD sufferers manifest are very likely out of their control.  The reason they rage, the reason they manipulate, the reason they abuse, is because of an incurable illness.  It is treatable, but there has never been a scientific study that has shown a effective CURE.  Therefore, we must accept that if not already in full bloom and active in the moment, there will always be some manifestation of BPD lurking behind every single moment.

If an act of kindness can serve to minimize the chance that the BPD Monster will rear its ugly head, then, co-dependent or interdependent, or neither; why not just be kind?

It's OK, in my book, to do an act of kindness for someone you love, or even someone you don't, because kindness is a human virtue.

The co-dependency thing, along with BPD sufferer accountability, are two big issues with which I struggle.  In the moment- in the heat of the battle (speaking figuratively and literally)- there is often no time to decide how best to act- gut instinct, and following guidelines / lessons for managing all things BPD, are the only ways to be present, and authentic. 

If we look back at our behaviors, we can always find co-dependency features in all of our relationships because, after all, we are struggling with maintaining a relationship with a significant other who cannot, by virtue of the BPD illness, ever truly meet us half way in a purely interdependent, emotionally mature way of relating. 

It is my opinion that the only way to exclude ALL co-dependency in a relationship with a person suffering BPD is to leave the relationship.  The best we can do, is to minimize the co-dependency to those few things that, if sacrificed, would lead to implosion / explosion of the bond, and destruction of the relationship.

Again, these are my opinions, and are not intended to be offensive or hurtful to anyone.

Surg_Bear

[sweetheart]

Hi all,

So, for me there was a long long time when I was controlling our relationship with kindness because I believed this was the right thing to do and I felt ok about my actions. I could justify them to myself because I was a nice person. What I failed to consider was the impact this controlling kindness was having on my husband. It seriously limited his ability to live his life in a way that was about what he wanted, and it nearly destroyed our marriage.

I acted from a place of superiority and also from a place where I believe I knew better because I wasn't the mentally ill one. So my choices for our family were more valid than his. He acquiesced to my controlling kindness for a long time, I believe out of genuine love for me and our son, but then he started to seriously and dangerously dysregulate as a way I believe of trying to let me know that I was emotionally killing him, suffocating and controlling him all from a place of kindness. When he accused me of being controlling I dismissed his accusations with indifference.

When I think back to this time, I think about the Einsteins definition of madness "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I was the crazy one. My h had no other coherent way of getting me to stop controlling him in this way but to dysregulate.

It wasn't until I found this forum that I began to look at me ( not my husband ) and my actions and started to take responsibility for my role in the chaos.

It took me ages to accept that being kind, reasonable, nice, sane doesn't give me the moral high ground in our marriage, I thought it did.

I can still be those things but not if they are about trying to control another persons life.

Was there a happy ending for us ? Not in the traditional sense there wasn't, but our relationship is much more honest. My husbands illness is still unstable, but there is less conflict between us.

I am now much more aware of how my issues around power and control were concealed inside kindness and love because of my own insecurities around rejection,abandonment and ultimately being on my own. 

[vortex of confusion]

What is is the difference between co-dependent and interdependent?

I have had this same question. I think co-dependent is doing things with the expectation that you will receive something in return even though the other person has persistently shown that he/she is not going to reciprocate. Interdependence is two people helping each other out without any kind of expectation. It is a two way street.

Recently, I had another thought about this. I think co-dependence comes from some of the overly romanticized notions about relationships. The one that comes to mind most is the idea of "You complete me." It is seeking completion and wholeness in a relationship rather than seeking it for yourself outside of the relationship as an individual. Over the weekend, my husband said that he feels like I complete him. I told him, "I don't want to complete you. I want you to be a complete individual with or without me. I want us to compliment each other and be unique individuals whether we are together or not."

I find the whole co-dependency model of human relationships to be pathologizing of people.  Is there room for true dependence on another human being, if we all are enablers to our loved ones?

I agree with you on this and have had a difficult time articulating it. It wasn't until I started working with a trauma coach that I was able to figure out my discomfort with the idea of immediately labeling some behaviors as codependent. Some of the things that have happened in my marriage have been traumatic. In traumatic situations, people don't usually know how to immediately respond. A lot of my responses weren't codependent as much as they were me responding in ways that helped me to feel safer. It was more out of self preservation. It was finding the path of least resistance so that I could cope with situations that were NOT normal.  to a receiver).

I don't know the answers to these questions, and I am definitely NOT trying to be a a-hole here.

I think the important thing is to check in with yourself. Can you handle these sorts of things? If you know that the person is going to keep dropping the tube, are YOU okay with picking it up? It doesn't matter what the reason is. There are times when I think too much emphasis is placed on the other person's motives. I am getting to a point where I don't care about the other person's motives or intentions. I am trying to look more at: "Can I handle this? Do I really want to do this? How is this impacting ME?" If you realize that you can't handle picking the tube up, then it is important to recognize that and find somebody that CAN pick up the tube.

An example in my life is my husband's sex addiction. For the longest time, I tried to help him with that without checking in with myself. As a result, I was resentful and angry. Once I checked in with myself, I realized that I couldn't deal with it. I told him to find somebody else to help him with it. I can stand by him but somebody else needs to worry about the tube because that is too much for me to handle. Because I have stepped away from that issue, I am able to be kinder in other areas because I am not fretting over as much. Trying to help him with something that was beyond my abilities and resources was not being kind to either of us.

If an act of kindness can serve to minimize the chance that the BPD Monster will rear its ugly head, then, co-dependent or interdependent, or neither; why not just be kind?

Here is the thing, kindness may or may not prevent the BPD monster. In some cases, it can aggravate the situation. I have had my husband ask me, "Why are you so nice to me? I don't deserve it." At one time, I tried to tell him that I didn't feel important or special to him. He turned it around on me so I started telling him all of the things that I do for him. He turned it around on me and said, "But you are nice to everyone." (This was before I found these forums.) He was using my kindness against me. So, I try not to be kind to ward off bad behaviors. I have tried to take my husband and his problems out of the equation completely.

The co-dependency thing, along with BPD sufferer accountability, are two big issues with which I struggle.  In the moment- in the heat of the battle (speaking figuratively and literally)- there is often no time to decide how best to act- gut instinct, and following guidelines / lessons for managing all things BPD, are the only ways to be present, and authentic. 

I am going to disagree with this. I try not to think in terms of BPD or mental illness. The stuff in a lot of the lessons is good for all people. They are great communication skills that can be applied in all areas of life. If you are interacting with somebody and are reacting, then it might be a good idea to learn to NOT react and give yourself time to think. Slow things down a bit so that you DO have more time to speak more deliberately and intentionally.

[Notwendy]

What is is the difference between co-dependent and interdependent?


This was not a topic I could comprehend well intellectually. I was willing to give it a try though. I was fed up with the dynamics in my marriage, and also with my relationship with my parents and my mother's FOO. Our MC suggested I join 12 step groups for co-dependency, so I did, and got a sponsor. I have tried a few different groups- they are not all the same in terms of people, chemistry, but the steps are similar.

One of the hardest concept to grasp was the idea of "emotional sobriety" and the addiction model for co-dependency. I don't use drugs, no gambling, no porn, not a shoppaholic so I could not see myself as being addicted to something. Looking at the idea that co-dependency was an addiction to people made no sense to me until I recognized that the feeling I had after our emotional blowouts at night felt a lot like the very few hangovers I had experienced. I had been "drinking" emotionally for years, and didn't know it.

After a lot of work, I realized one day that my mother really didn't trigger me much, my H's comments bothered me less. I resisted the urge to get into emotional discussions- it was really hard not to at first, until I realized I was trying to get a "fix" as was my H when he was baiting me. It was a slow slow process. Then, the crazy night arguments stopped, because I was no longer starting them or participating in them. And no more "hangovers". This was emotional sobriety. Not that I don't relapse, but when I do, I know what it is.

Do I still do nice things for people- sure, but without feeling the emotional toxicity of the relationship somehow. I can't explain why. Altruism doesn't make you feel anxious, sad, distressed -but co-dependency does.

[Daniell85]

that's eye opening about the co dependency being an addiction. My father was a raging alcoholic. His father, too. My boyfriend's dad was too. And his grandfather.

I never thought of it that way. I never have gone to any AA meetings or really explored it. I rarely drink. Sometimes I over eat.

[Notwendy]

My mom has BPD and she drank for most of my childhood. This is one reason I hardly ever did, as I thought that would be a way to avoid being like her.

So finding myself sitting in a 12 step meeting with other people with addiction, some of them alcoholics was a strange feeling. Co dependency was hard to recognize in myself and others, because, it was all I ever knew growing up. I had no other experiences. One of the groups that I have found helpful is the ACOA- adult child of alcoholics and also dysfunction as the families with a disordered person have similar patterns.

The history of AA began with and for alcoholics. However they found that when the alcoholics tried to get sober, they faced an other issue- the spouses were actually hindering their recovery. In this era, it was mostly wives, who all appeared to be loving, caring and supportive but they were actually enabling. For the alcoholics to recover, they had to deal with the enablers, so Alanon was started. Since the 12 steps seemed to help different addiction-enabler models the concept has expanded. It is not without its critics, but it helped me, and it seems others, which is why there are so many groups. None of this is for profit- the groups use civic centers, churches, for donated space. They take collections to purchase books and also give donations to the organizations that let them use the space, but nobody gets paid for this so there isn't a financial motive to get people to participate.

ACOA deals with the issues of being raised in a family with alcoholics/dysfunction and enablers/codependents.

[maxsterling]

Interesting topic, thanks for bringing this out.

I've gone to al-anon meetings for awhile now, and have always had issue with the term "co-dependent".  There are just so many flavors to the situations that we are in, so many differences in our pasts, that pasting a label of "codependent" on ourselves sometimes feels like a way of accepting blame for obviously wrong behavior by someone else.  Same with "controlling" or  "control freak".

On the very basic human level, one could argue that all of our behaviors can be interpreted as "controlling" because for survival we want to have some control over our outcomes.  And because we live in a society, our most basic behaviors can be interpreted as "controlling" - voting, the way we drive, the things we buy, the way we act, are all attempts at controlling not just ourselves, but our societal environment. 

Some forms of "control" aren't a bad thing.  Being kind is not a bad thing.  Now, if I am being kind instead of ripping someone's head off, well ripping someone's head off is not good, either, but I'm not being genuine to myself.  When I read the stories on here, I more often see loving people who are kind in general, who have through whatever means wound up in a situation with a pwBPD who frustrates us because our natural kindness is not reciprocated. 

I think in most cases, few of us are trying to "control" the pwBPD by being kind.  But I think there are many cases where we aren't genuine, and choose the "kind" approach because that is who we are and know an  "unkind" approach will not help the situation.

Regarding my personal situation, I feel "stuck" right now, not because I want to be kind to avoid a rage (or at least most of the time), but because I emotionally feel that taking other actions are "unkind" and I have a very difficult time intentionally being unkind to anyone. 

[123Phoebe]

Regarding my personal situation, I feel "stuck" right now, not because I want to be kind to avoid a rage (or at least most of the time), but because I emotionally feel that taking other actions are "unkind" and I have a very difficult time intentionally being unkind to anyone. 

Oftentimes what happens using this philosophy is that we become very unkind to ourselves and then look out!  Because once we've worn ourselves down we're of no good use to anybody.  Horrors, when we're used to being "useful".  There is so much to it.

Take care of yourself!

[Notwendy]

We don't "get" it Max, because we can't see it.  Kindness and co-dependency don't feel different because we can not see the difference- it is so much a part of us that it seems natural and normal. Who doesn't want to be kind? Kindness is a good thing... .in general.

But if being kind is a good thing- why are so many of us here depressed, stressed, losing ourselves in our relationships? Well, we can say it is because we are with people with BPD, or at least traits, but why did we choose these people, why did they choose us?

I had the same issues with co-dependency. I had heard people say this to me before, but I didn't get it at all. I thought I was just being a nice kind person. But as Phoeobe says, I was not being kind to myself.

The difference between going to meetings and working with a sponsor is huge, and while going to meetings is a good thing, the actual change in our behavior and thinking requires a lot of work on our part with someone who is not going to just be supportive but will call us out on our stuff.

My sponsor set a great example of "tough love". If I was hurting, she didn't say " there there let me give you a hug, he's a jerk"  She made me face my own emotional pain- while not leaving me to feel all alone in it. She could see the dysfunctional thinking in me because she knew what it was. She turned my complaints back on me, like a mirror but with love and not blame, like someone with BPD did. Did I get upset with her sometimes? Yes, but I knew she was doing me good.

There's a difference between kindness, co-dependency, being a jerk-ripping off someone's head and tough love. The group can give you support, which is good. But a sponsor who can tough love you through actual change is a gift IMHO.

[SurfNTurf]

Okay I'll jump in with  my 2cents... .

When I'm kind, I am genuinely kind, and I do it from a nursing perspective. the uPDhusband can be a real turd - as can some of my sick patients - but you can never go wrong with kindness.

I don't believe kindness is the same thing as meeting a spouse partway - as in having sex when you don't always feel like it, or doing something for them when you might rather be doing something else. That to me is just taking one for the team.

I will be kind, b/c I was raised it's the right thing to do.

In some instances, it is becoming easier to let him stew in his own juice and not bite on his bait. For example, I've been trying, nicely, to get him to commit to a date to complete some home projects. Last night we had a conversation about this, and I mentioned 'we' could do somethings together to facilitate completion. He got snarky and said "well I do things around here, WE don't do things around here."  Which meant, I don't do anything around here.

I really wanted to punch him in the face.

But instead I didn't pick up the bait. I already know I bring home the bacon, cook it up in a pan, was the pan after,  do the laundry, change the beds, clean the cat box, scoop after the dog, water the garden, sweep the patio, blow off the driveway, fill the car with gas, pick up the dry cleaning, can the tomatoes, make pickles and jams, and am working on a quilt for HIS daughter/my step-daughter. So his snark is just that; snark.

I kindly reminded myself he has a mental health condition. I can't fix that. I didn't cause it. I don't have to take his bait. And in that way, I was also kind to him.