Another perspective to self-esteem and borderlines.

[peacefulmind]

Hey peaceful,

Thank you for your response. In no way was I questioning the historical part, because it sounds like you and I had similar experiences. i feel like I had a good childhood, full of adventure and learning but both of my parents, although I knew that they loved me, were very distracted with their social lives. I wasn't left sitting in front of a TV while they went off and partied, by any stretch. They just weren't born parents, which in some ways was fine by me. I did my own thing, played hard etc. I don't think I will even know to what extent it effected me. I know that I was a terror in school, which could have just been my personality or a seek for attention, although one has to wonder why anyone would actively seek the kind of attention I got for these misdeeds.

It's likely a mix of the two, but there is just no question that at the time my exBPDgf came into my life I was distraught from a failed marriage where I was discarded and replaced (to some degree deserved in this case, attributed to my neglect and not anything sinister). I was raw and primed to have a love interest who needed me, appreciated me. My exBPDgf wasn't really even my type, albeit beautiful in her own way, just not what I might have fallen for, but I did and hard. Not because of the idealization but because, then in my mid 40's, I thought more about what was important, that while I did need to be attracted to a woman, that there were superficial expectations that weren't as critical to me anymore. She moved WAY to fast for me and I gently feathered the brakes, but I had a woman in difficult straights that I found attractive and that genuinely needed my help. I wanted to feel that sense of worth rebuild after having it squashed so hard.

Despite my childhood issues, in my 20 year relationship that turned into marriage, I was the independent one, not needed to feel needed or wanted. I was the one who, while deeply loving my ex wife, was quite happy living in my own head and being with friends etc. Reflection on that me has me questioning how much my childhood played a role in my last relationship and how much my hurt and desire not to screw up again played a role in my sticking it out with my exBPDgf. I just don't know.

Again, I know that I have underlying childhood issues but why did they not surface in my 20 year relationship with my ex wife? Maybe because she was devoted unconditionally for most of that relationship that I didn't feel threatened? I don't know.

Interesting dialogue!

I get the feeling that your marriage through 20 years was overall a good marriage with a person who reciprocated your love. If so, is that not an essential that is not given in relationships with pwBPD, which also is a hallmark feature of the very disorder? For me, the need for validation is at least partly caused by the inability of my father to ever allow me to feel that I was good at something, and I always had to walk on eggshells around him (not until the later years where it is too late, was I told how proud he was of me). To add to this, my parents were overprotective to the point where I was never allowed the same things and experiences as my fellow friends.

I think, in my humble opinion, that the issues that I've earlier described as being the core problem for myself, surface when the SO is not able to appreciate or reciprocate the care and love I feel I bring to the relationship. That is also why I never felt like trust was something I could fully feel with my ex. I relived my past, having to walk on eggshells, being devalued for things I felt were right and that I was good at. Flashback childhood. Had it been different, had everything been reciprocated and part of a mutual respectful bond to my exBPD (haha... ), I do not think I would've paid it a moment's notice. Follow me? My past would not have become the present so-to-speak, and my low self-worth was what drove me to accept the fact that words and actions never aligned.

[LimboFL]

Peaceful, you do raise an interesting point, as it pertains to what could trigger the resurface of historical wounds. Yes, for the most part, my 20 year marriage was good. She nagged and I did a lot of stupid stuff (youth) but we had a nice home, a child and did all of the normal things that families do.

It is very possible that my exBPD was almost a replica of my Mother, in many ways. Drinking, insulting, but also loving. I could get much deeper into this. There is no question that I was consistently on edge with my ex, like you I never truly trusted her, never truly felt she was in it 100% either. We had a fight one day, where she blasted me for not giving her my finances (in the past) and that she could have fixed a number of my concerns through budgeting etc. My response was "you have had one foot out the door, throughout this entire relationship, I didn't feel your commitment enough to hand over my finances to you" It was an odd statement, I understand and maybe it was just an opportunity to tell her that I didn't trust her. Mind you we were together 4 years.

I also wanted to address something you said to allmessedup, in relation to our giving of ourselves and the boundaries we should set. In my view, the level we should give she be equal to the level of appreciation and reciprocation we receive. By reciprocation I don't mean the return of an equal task of any sort of monetary return, but instead how we are treated. It was a constant anger in me that she could berate me and insult me, after I had done so much for her that day. When someone is good to me, it is the first thing that comes to my mind when I dissaprove of something that they have done. I think "she was so kind and helped me here and there, why am I being so selfish as to nag her for something so minor?" I consistently let annoyances go, not because I was too afraid to confront, but rather because I have matured to the point where I realize that people are flawed and they make mistakes. These little annoyances are so minor in the big scheme of things and something I read also stays engrained in my head, "is it more important to win or to be happy" She was so competitive, even with the smallest thing. Anything, a country's capital, the correct pronunciation of a word. She would call me out for everything and I had to bite my tongue regularly, because I neither wanted to start something nor did I wish to embarrass her.

She also called me out when I tried to do super sweet things, out of total kindness. When she was visiting her dying Mom across the country, I sent over a care package of wine and cheese and other little items. The idea was that it would be a nice reason to get the family together and that in spirit I was there. As soon as she offered me a less than grateful thanks, she essentially ripped into me saying "what is wrong with you, why would you think wine and cheese were a good idea? My mom is sick, she can't drink or eat, Jesus" Same thing when I complete straightened up her disaster closet. I folded all of her underwear, lined up all of her shoes, hung everything up that was on the floor. I just wanted her to come home to a clean and organized closet ( she worked weekends so I wanted it to be a nice surprise) Again a weak thanks and then 10 min later, after she got angry about something so stupid that I can't even remember, she launched into "why did I bloody mess with her closet, she didn't ask me to do it and that I shouldn't have bothered" These were pretty devastating, when one does something out of the goodness of their heart, not looking for gushing thanks but rather just happy to make their partner happy or at least show a tremendous amount of caring. I could have done a hundred better things that night and I could have sent her Mother the requisite flowers which in any event speak of death when I was trying to encourage family unity and even a small treat for Mom. Every one of these events sucked the life out of me and hurt me so deeply.

If a partner shows you genuine appreciation and caring and excuses some of your genuinely stupid moves, then this I believe is what is sufficient to give of ones self completely. I don't believe that, moving forward, I am going to change my view on how far I will go to help my next partner, is she needs it. However, I will slowly back away if I feel like none of it is truly appreciated, that I am not appreciated and that the same kind of allowances I offer my partner are being offered to me. At least I hope. Who knows.

Sorry I poured out a lot that I haven't really shared so part of this post was just a purge. Hopefully some of it made some sense and thanks for listening.

[LimboFL]

Was going to add but decided not to. BPD Fam won't allow a delete.

[Allmessedup]

... .limbo I could have written a majority of your post.

I usually post most often on the PI board but was really intrigued with this whole thread.  My ex too had one of the worst childhood/early adulthood I could ever imagine.  All of her exes treated her like crap too.  This is a major reason that kept me in the relationship as long as I was (almost 5 years).

I also know she loved me too.  And I love her. 

But is not the whole staying and seeing the relationship thru out of guilt either for your past relationship or her traumas she suffered a bit like the whole white knight thing?  Playing he rescuer?

So the question is where did that come from.  That need to rescue? 

Not to hijack this entire thread but I think it comes at least in part from the low self esteem/low self worth topic that originated this thread.    I keep mulling it over in my mind as it's very similar to what I posted today in the PIboard. 

I just can't seem to but the pieces together quite yet... .

Amu

To me, the need to rescue stems from a need to be validated through my actions. In this case, my exBPD has had a rough life, no doubt, and has been treaten unfairly in some occassions (whether any of this is true is something I have started to question though - I suspect my ex to have been a huge part of the victim scenarios that was described to me). For me, to be a part of this complex life and being told that I helped and was a solid rock in the relationship to my ex, embraced my need to feel validated. I don't know if you follow me? I understand the white knight complex, and that it is part of something more than just this, but personally I find it intriguing that the one thing that I craved the most, was manifested in the words of my exBPD, about how I was important and could save her from the problems which persisted in her life. Supporting one's SO is part of any relationship, but what I've learned is, that I should not take other people's problems on as my own. They are, ultimately, their problems. I can support, guide, and advice, but never be drawn into the situations like I allowed myself to be. Had my self-worth been higher, I would've also realized this, because my perception of problematic situations in my ex's life would be entirely different.

Peaceful mind,  I do actually follow you here... that is very much what I did as well... took her problems as my own.  It went above just supporting her for sure.  Why was solving her problems validating to me then I wonder?  Is it saying here... .I can solve the problems for you because you are incapable?  A one up position...   Did it stem from The need to control?  Ie let me fix your problems for you so you can focus your attention on me and give me back the mirroring I had before the problems got in the way?  Or is it more let me make myself invaluable to you so you won't leave me sort of thing.

Honestly I suspect it was a little bit of all of that.  Which I don't really like to look at, but that tells me there is more insight there to be had as well... .

Amu

[peacefulmind]

Peaceful, you do raise an interesting point, as it pertains to what could trigger the resurface of historical wounds. Yes, for the most part, my 20 year marriage was good. She nagged and I did a lot of stupid stuff (youth) but we had a nice home, a child and did all of the normal things that families do.

It is very possible that my exBPD was almost a replica of my Mother, in many ways. Drinking, insulting, but also loving. I could get much deeper into this. There is no question that I was consistently on edge with my ex, like you I never truly trusted her, never truly felt she was in it 100% either. We had a fight one day, where she blasted me for not giving her my finances (in the past) and that she could have fixed a number of my concerns through budgeting etc. My response was "you have had one foot out the door, throughout this entire relationship, I didn't feel your commitment enough to hand over my finances to you" It was an odd statement, I understand and maybe it was just an opportunity to tell her that I didn't trust her. Mind you we were together 4 years.

I also wanted to address something you said to allmessedup, in relation to our giving of ourselves and the boundaries we should set. In my view, the level we should give she be equal to the level of appreciation and reciprocation we receive. By reciprocation I don't mean the return of an equal task of any sort of monetary return, but instead how we are treated. It was a constant anger in me that she could berate me and insult me, after I had done so much for her that day. When someone is good to me, it is the first thing that comes to my mind when I dissaprove of something that they have done. I think "she was so kind and helped me here and there, why am I being so selfish as to nag her for something so minor?" I consistently let annoyances go, not because I was too afraid to confront, but rather because I have matured to the point where I realize that people are flawed and they make mistakes. These little annoyances are so minor in the big scheme of things and something I read also stays engrained in my head, "is it more important to win or to be happy" She was so competitive, even with the smallest thing. Anything, a country's capital, the correct pronunciation of a word. She would call me out for everything and I had to bite my tongue regularly, because I neither wanted to start something nor did I wish to embarrass her.

She also called me out when I tried to do super sweet things, out of total kindness. When she was visiting her dying Mom across the country, I sent over a care package of wine and cheese and other little items. The idea was that it would be a nice reason to get the family together and that in spirit I was there. As soon as she offered me a less than grateful thanks, she essentially ripped into me saying "what is wrong with you, why would you think wine and cheese were a good idea? My mom is sick, she can't drink or eat, Jesus" Same thing when I complete straightened up her disaster closet. I folded all of her underwear, lined up all of her shoes, hung everything up that was on the floor. I just wanted her to come home to a clean and organized closet ( she worked weekends so I wanted it to be a nice surprise) Again a weak thanks and then 10 min later, after she got angry about something so stupid that I can't even remember, she launched into "why did I bloody mess with her closet, she didn't ask me to do it and that I shouldn't have bothered" These were pretty devastating, when one does something out of the goodness of their heart, not looking for gushing thanks but rather just happy to make their partner happy or at least show a tremendous amount of caring. I could have done a hundred better things that night and I could have sent her Mother the requisite flowers which in any event speak of death when I was trying to encourage family unity and even a small treat for Mom. Every one of these events sucked the life out of me and hurt me so deeply.

If a partner shows you genuine appreciation and caring and excuses some of your genuinely stupid moves, then this I believe is what is sufficient to give of ones self completely. I don't believe that, moving forward, I am going to change my view on how far I will go to help my next partner, is she needs it. However, I will slowly back away if I feel like none of it is truly appreciated, that I am not appreciated and that the same kind of allowances I offer my partner are being offered to me. At least I hope. Who knows.

Sorry I poured out a lot that I haven't really shared so part of this post was just a purge. Hopefully some of it made some sense and thanks for listening.

This cannot have been easy. You have my empathy but you seem like you have gotten a long way in your healing and understanding the pathological schemes and the lack of leeway in your own life.

I do believe that caring for others and showing empathy as well as support, are important endpoints that really make up my persona. However, as long as I am not able to tell wrong from right, and as long as I'm not able to stand up for myself and set boundaries, my very beliefs become my bane. You bring up a lot of the eggshell walking, confusion with your own sanity, and gradual degradation of your kindness, which is something many of us have experienced - in my case, my low self-worth made it impossible for me to set the needed distance to the issues at hand for my ex, which ultimately drove me into the state of depression. When I was left in the dirt, there was only myself to pick me up, and with the help of my wonderful therapist, I am finally moving towards the detachment that I truly want.

I hope your purge and your ability to let it all out has also helped you, and has made you realize just how important it is to respect ourselves Thanks for your great post.

[peacefulmind]

... .limbo I could have written a majority of your post.

I usually post most often on the PI board but was really intrigued with this whole thread.  My ex too had one of the worst childhood/early adulthood I could ever imagine.  All of her exes treated her like crap too.  This is a major reason that kept me in the relationship as long as I was (almost 5 years).

I also know she loved me too.  And I love her.  

But is not the whole staying and seeing the relationship thru out of guilt either for your past relationship or her traumas she suffered a bit like the whole white knight thing?  Playing he rescuer?

So the question is where did that come from.  That need to rescue?  

Not to hijack this entire thread but I think it comes at least in part from the low self esteem/low self worth topic that originated this thread.    I keep mulling it over in my mind as it's very similar to what I posted today in the PIboard.  

I just can't seem to but the pieces together quite yet... .

Amu

To me, the need to rescue stems from a need to be validated through my actions. In this case, my exBPD has had a rough life, no doubt, and has been treaten unfairly in some occassions (whether any of this is true is something I have started to question though - I suspect my ex to have been a huge part of the victim scenarios that was described to me). For me, to be a part of this complex life and being told that I helped and was a solid rock in the relationship to my ex, embraced my need to feel validated. I don't know if you follow me? I understand the white knight complex, and that it is part of something more than just this, but personally I find it intriguing that the one thing that I craved the most, was manifested in the words of my exBPD, about how I was important and could save her from the problems which persisted in her life. Supporting one's SO is part of any relationship, but what I've learned is, that I should not take other people's problems on as my own. They are, ultimately, their problems. I can support, guide, and advice, but never be drawn into the situations like I allowed myself to be. Had my self-worth been higher, I would've also realized this, because my perception of problematic situations in my ex's life would be entirely different.

Peaceful mind,  I do actually follow you here... that is very much what I did as well... took her problems as my own.  It went above just supporting her for sure.  Why was solving her problems validating to me then I wonder?  Is it saying here... .I can solve the problems for you because you are incapable?  A one up position...  :)id it stem from The need to control?  Ie let me fix your problems for you so you can focus your attention on me and give me back the mirroring I had before the problems got in the way?  Or is it more let me make myself invaluable to you so you won't leave me sort of thing.

Honestly I suspect it was a little bit of all of that.  Which I don't really like to look at, but that tells me there is more insight there to be had as well... .

Amu

I believe that solving her problems, give you a sense of accomplishment. You've been able to reach a person who has problems and are able to utilize your full range of empathy and care. In my situation, such thing was never possible for me during my early life, and even if I felt my dad was a sick son-of-a-b**** sometimes, I really wanted him to show me that he cared and supported me. It is not until my later years he has made attempts to do so, but as I stated earlier, by then it is already too late for me. The damage has been done and I have to piece together the lost ability to know my own self-worth. My pretending persona is the one I have to get rid of, in order for me to fully allow myself to be with someone who reciprocates the very things I prioritize in any relationship, otherwise, what is the point?

You bring up some very interesting points, and I agree that these are probable scenarios that may have played out in our own minds. It kind of underscores the importance for self-reflection, even if we were wronged. Our own perception of right and wrong is, at least for some of us, also very flawed, and before we accept that, I do not believe full detachment is reachable (that's where I'm at now at least, and I'm currently working on myself, regaining my trust in my own ability to be me and hopefully, this will help me understand self-worth and facilitate the transition into a much healthier human being). Thanks for the great input.

[LimboFL]

Thank you peaceful, I greatly appreciate your kindness and your sage advice. Yes, we do have to draw the line and yes, there has been a learning experience in being solely responsible for pulling myself out of the mess that I was in. Yes, for the most part I am out of it, but she still crosses my mind hourly which is when I have a dialogue with myself, call her names and move forward. The same emotions we all go through and why this site is such a haven for us, because no one on the "outside" could possibly understand.

I am sorry that you got dragged even further than I did. While I mourned deeply and still shed a few tears here and there, when someone cheats on me, I walk with anger and I know that despite hanging on for as long as I did, I knew that I wanted out, I knew that she was helping in my destruction. I miss the beautiful and tender moments but not the rest.

I am elated that you made it out and that we have your sage advice to learn from.

Thank you, again.

[peacefulmind]

Thank you peaceful, I greatly appreciate your kindness and your sage advice. Yes, we do have to draw the line and yes, there has been a learning experience in being solely responsible for pulling myself out of the mess that I was in. Yes, for the most part I am out of it, but she still crosses my mind hourly which is when I have a dialogue with myself, call her names and move forward. The same emotions we all go through and why this site is such a haven for us, because no one on the "outside" could possibly understand.

I am sorry that you got dragged even further than I did. While I mourned deeply and still shed a few tears here and there, when someone cheats on me, I walk with anger and I know that despite hanging on for as long as I did, I knew that I wanted out, I knew that she was helping in my destruction. I miss the beautiful and tender moments but not the rest.

I am elated that you made it out and that we have your sage advice to learn from.

Thank you, again.

Thank you for your kind words. I still go through ruminance every once in a while, but for the most part, my obsession over my ex's doings and whereabouts is finally at its end. Earlier, I was looking through my facebook to clean up my page (I don't use it much anyways, so there's no need to have excessive stuff floating around on there... ), and saw a post from back when I was with my ex. I saw the profile pic, and got an instant burning feeling to my chest, the same feeling I felt when I was trying to survive the silence, the inevitable truth that it was over, and the coldness that I had never experienced in any human before. It made me realize what it had done to me, and the fact that my heart still burns whenever I'm reminded, gives me the motivation to push through this. I have a good network of caring friends and a loving family that have been there for me when I needed it, but it was not until I allowed myself into therapy, that I realized that my feelings are entirely my own, and no one can do anything about it except myself. Drawing myself further out of the victim role (albeit it may be warranted for many of us here), has made me able to look more positively on life, and the realization that life do in fact go on.

I hope I will reach complete detachment, and that I will be able to look back at this and understand a deeper part of me, a part that I have neglected for way too long. I've been weak to not deal with it, but it's a lot easier to just let life pass by instead of taking action towards the things that mark you. I will not allow that to happen anymore, and the first step towards that, is finding my self-worth. I see it as a life-long development, and I am excited about taking on this challenge in my life. Hopefully, it will turn out to be worth it, and I will be able to find a person who deserves my love and care, and can reciprocate just that.

[Tyrwhitt1]

I wanted to say thank you for this post.  I read it a few days ago and it was like a lightbulb moment; the different between self-esteem and self-worth, the need for validation from my parents and then my exBPDh, which seemed lacking.  I can remember saying to my ex "are you proud of me" and he mumbled that it was a wierd question to ask and just continued mumbling.  I can remember my parents talking me out of various careers because I was 'a butterfly' and wouldn't settle at anything, I was young but their lack of faith in me was subtle, but there.

And I fixed my ex's problems, for two decades I fixed and nurtured and tried to make sense of the chaos that fell on me regularly.  It baffled me, why did I stay?  I remember thinking several years into the marriage that it wasn't normal to be told to 'f... ' off as many times as I was, that I didn't feel any sense of real support.  Any problem I had was met with attack, so I stopped talking.  And then one of the posts in this thread answered it for me (forgive me, I forget who posted).  If I fixed him, really fixed him, I'd get back the idealisation, the mirroring (not that I saw it as that then), the feeling of total togetherness we had when we first met and at very odd intervals in between.  I'd have the marriage that I wanted, of course, it never happened.  My memory is that our closest moments were away on holidays, we would walk, talk, hold hands.  But within two weeks of returning, bam, there was another mood swing, another depression, another physical ailment to overcome, more excuses to his boss why he wasn't in work, constant ringing to try to get him out of bed.

I won't forget this post and I thank everyone who contributed.  I never thought I had low self-esteem but now I realise that I have low self-worth and why.  Small chips in teenagehood and childhood, which with my personality type affected me.  But with two decades of my life gone in the marriage, it has been a learning experience, I wouldn't be the person I am nor would I be reflecting in this way now if I hadn't lived it.  But I need to figure out how to fix me now and accept that there'll be good days and bad.  This site helps me reflect and come to terms with what I've been up against.  Your words of wisdom when you post stretch far and wide.

[peacefulmind]

I wanted to say thank you for this post.  I read it a few days ago and it was like a lightbulb moment; the different between self-esteem and self-worth, the need for validation from my parents and then my exBPDh, which seemed lacking.  I can remember saying to my ex "are you proud of me" and he mumbled that it was a wierd question to ask and just continued mumbling.  I can remember my parents talking me out of various careers because I was 'a butterfly' and wouldn't settle at anything, I was young but their lack of faith in me was subtle, but there.

And I fixed my ex's problems, for two decades I fixed and nurtured and tried to make sense of the chaos that fell on me regularly.  It baffled me, why did I stay?  I remember thinking several years into the marriage that it wasn't normal to be told to 'f... ' off as many times as I was, that I didn't feel any sense of real support.  Any problem I had was met with attack, so I stopped talking.  And then one of the posts in this thread answered it for me (forgive me, I forget who posted).  If I fixed him, really fixed him, I'd get back the idealisation, the mirroring (not that I saw it as that then), the feeling of total togetherness we had when we first met and at very odd intervals in between.  I'd have the marriage that I wanted, of course, it never happened.  My memory is that our closest moments were away on holidays, we would walk, talk, hold hands.  But within two weeks of returning, bam, there was another mood swing, another depression, another physical ailment to overcome, more excuses to his boss why he wasn't in work, constant ringing to try to get him out of bed.

I won't forget this post and I thank everyone who contributed.  I never thought I had low self-esteem but now I realise that I have low self-worth and why.  Small chips in teenagehood and childhood, which with my personality type affected me.  But with two decades of my life gone in the marriage, it has been a learning experience, I wouldn't be the person I am nor would I be reflecting in this way now if I hadn't lived it.  But I need to figure out how to fix me now and accept that there'll be good days and bad.  This site helps me reflect and come to terms with what I've been up against.  Your words of wisdom when you post stretch far and wide.

I'm glad this site helps you. It did the same for me when I came here some months ago, distressed and out of it because of what had happened. The bpdfamily is amazing, and you'll find answers to most, if not all questions you may have.

The whole self-esteem vs. self-worth was an intriguing epiphany for me. It speedened up my own healing and made me able to reflect more deeply into myself and my own life. Hopefully, this journey has just started, and I will be able to come back stronger, so I in the future, can find a reciprocated love relationship. If not, at least I have gained valuable insight into me, and why I have always acted the way I have