Guilt and self forgiveness... How?

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey guys!

I am noticing that I am consistently triggered by observing someone who is being abused in some form.  It makes me feel a strong urge to rescue.

This is what drew me to my exN/BPDtraits partner.  My desire to rescue him from his exW with BPD.

It happens and repeats itself with me in many areas of my life.

In thinking of this, I realize that even in times that I am successful at "helping or rescuing," I still continue to feel this urge in the site of abuse and it remains a trigger.

So I thought back... .

I realize my urge to rescue is actually a projection.  That I am in fact trying to recue myself.

So I ask myself: from what?

The answer: From earlier abuse

So I came to the conclusion that I am riddled with guilt that I was not realizing existed.

My urge to recue must be a cover up for experiencing my feelings of guilt that I am trying to avoid.

So I asked myself what and why do I feel guilty... .

I must feel responsible to feel guilty.  (I do not logically blame myself... I do not think)

So I conclude that I feel responsible for the abuse that I endured.  I am trying to rid myself of this feeling by making myself overly responsible and holding myself responsible for others abuse and bad experiences.  (Yes... .I do do this in many areas of life)

Ok... .so now I'm a bit stuck moving along with continuing to think this through... .

I feel like to relieve myself of guilty feelings, I would need to view myself as a victim.

I have long ago decided to not view myself as a victim as this is what creates the reality of victimhood for me.  So my rejection of viewing myself as a victim, leads to me having responsibility for abuse... .so then I focus that sense of responsibility into helping others too much.

Ok... .so I'm actively thinking on the spot here now... .

So another part of me is saying that the issue is NOT the guilt feeling, but my trying to relieve myself of the feeling by different methods.  That maybe I should try to find the feeling guilt, experience it more fully and lean into it?

That lean in method was very helpful in processing my grief and sadness.  Could that be the way to process this guilt that I am hiding within me as well?

Would that make me less compassionate?  Would I feel a sense of loss for losing this guilt that I have suppressed? (Because that is what I feel now at the thought of it)

Then... .

What is guilt?

Sadness seems more straight forward to me. (Like a primary color)

Guilt seems confusing to me. (What you get when you mix around other colors)

Anger to me seems more like repressed fear. (Also not a primary color)

So is guilt actually not guilt but the result of some other emotion transformed that I am missing/suppressing?

So now my mind thinks of the word: helpless

I think my suppression of guilt is a way to not feel helpless.  My reaction to seeing abuse is a trigger for me to combat my negative feelings by doing something I perceive as empowering, but the catch is that I think it is actually keeping me stunted.

I hope someone can follow this and help me with coming to a greater sense of clarity for me!



~SF

[Sunfl0wer]

When I see abuse, I am urged to "fix it."

When I consider the alternative and RA what I am observing and what is causing me pain, ... .it is painful... .it feels helpless.

I remember now... .

At some point I was confused.  I actually made a conscious decision in my late teens/early adulthood to not view myself as a victim. ... .to find a way to empower myself.  ... .that if I felt helpless then I would look for a way to undo this with actions of empowerment.  Like how parents who lost a child to drunk driving then instead of killing themself, find a way to educate others and make it their mission to save others from a similar fate. 

So now I am over helping to meet this unmet need.

I think the true need I have is self forgiveness.  If I were to forgive myself... .then there would be no purpose for guilt.

So how could I forgive myself while also not viewing myself as a victim?

[vortex of confusion]

Wow, lots of stuff to untangle!

One of the thoughts/questions that I had as I read your posts was: "Is it possible that you over help because you wish somebody had stood up and helped you at some point?"

You couldn't help yourself so you are helping others? That is just a thought because I know that I tend to help others MORE when I feel helpless. It feels empowering to give others what I wish I had. Does that make an ounce of sense?

I have had some of those vague feelings of guilt that I couldn't place. I think, for me, some of it comes from being in a place where I don't want to call it abuse but I also don't want to dismiss it. It is kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don't type situation. If I openly admit to abuse, then it feels like I would have to accept some sort of victimhood. If I stand up and say it wasn't abuse or it wasn't that bad, then that would clearly put me in some kind of denial. Neither one feels very good to me.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi SunflOwer

I have found that healing and release including self-forgiveness lies in catharsis.

What if you actually need to really get into the emotions of experiencing what it means to be 'helpless' or a 'victim', really feel the fear, express the rage and feel the fear to be free of this? Allow yourself to temporarily re-experience these emotions and all others associated. Re-visit your own victimisation whilst maintaining an adult over-view of the process, re-parenting yourself and celebrating your strengths. It is doing this type of thing over the last couple of months that has really helped me.

Best wishes

Lifewriter

[Sunfl0wer]

Wow, lots of stuff to untangle!

One of the thoughts/questions that I had as I read your posts was: "Is it possible that you over help because you wish somebody had stood up and helped you at some point?"

You couldn't help yourself so you are helping others? That is just a thought because I know that I tend to help others MORE when I feel helpless. It feels empowering to give others what I wish I had. Does that make an ounce of sense?

Absolutely!  Yes! I am over-helping to compensate for what I wish was done for me.

I even acutely recall many times I tried hard to be noticed for the abuse I was undergoing... .times I tried to reach out... .but failed. 

I am angry at myself for not... .

... .Screaming loud enough

... .explaining clear enough

... .not speaking a word for the fear I held

I am angry at others who noticed or "should have" noticed and "should have" helped but either couldn't or wouldn't.

And also, when I'm feeling particularly helpless, it always helps me to help someone else.  It is a form of dissociation, I believe... .to switch my focus off my feelings that I don't know what to do with... .and try to do something productive.

However, in this process... .it feels like I am leaving myself uncared for... .deep underneath somewhere.

I have had some of those vague feelings of guilt that I couldn't place. I think, for me, some of it comes from being in a place where I don't want to call it abuse but I also don't want to dismiss it. It is kind of a darned if you do, darned if you don't type situation. If I openly admit to abuse, then it feels like I would have to accept some sort of victimhood. If I stand up and say it wasn't abuse or it wasn't that bad, then that would clearly put me in some kind of denial. Neither one feels very good to me.

OMG!  I didn't even think about this!  This is a HUGE trigger too!

Sometimes at work, I have had to make tricky decisions.  I have witnessed what others consider abuse, however, as much as we may want to point things out in hopes for some idealistic conclusion... .Often what happens as a result can cause more harm to the situation. (Both long and short term)

Then I feel guilty for not calling it out as abuse... .as I know that is what often happened in my case.  Sometimes I have... .only to feel abused by the ones I needed to report to! Ugh!

I felt it was the job of the child psychologist and the doctor... .to identify I was abused... .but I also see their likely perspective... .  There was not a lot to go on... they need way more evidence... .Not many options... .And triggering a whole foster care situation of removing me... .Was maybe equally damaging vs leaving me in a toxic situation.

*sigh*. Thx for listening!

[Sunfl0wer]

I remember growing up thinking that the situation I was in was unreal!

No one should feel so helpless!

I was angry that I wasn't an adult.  Then at least I could control some things and make some decisions.  Feeling abused... .a child... .at the mercy of everyone else... .was horrific! 

I felt the abuse was unreal.

Then I was angry at the world for being equally unreal in their response to my situation.  It felt equally unreal.

That left me feeling that no one could be trusted!

Then... .if I cannot trust my internal home experience... .  And also can't trust the external world... .

Then how the hell am I to trust myself and my perceptions and thoughts and my existence when everything else felt like an Alice in Wonderland nightmare?

*sigh*

I just needed the vent for some reason, thx!

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi SunflOwer

I have found that healing and release including self-forgiveness lies in catharsis.

What if you actually need to really get into the emotions of experiencing what it means to be 'helpless' or a 'victim', really feel the fear, express the rage and feel the fear to be free of this? Allow yourself to temporarily re-experience these emotions and all others associated. Re-visit your own victimisation whilst maintaining an adult over-view of the process, re-parenting yourself and celebrating your strengths. It is doing this type of thing over the last couple of months that has really helped me.

Best wishes

Lifewriter

Thx  Lifewriter!

I was considering that I need to experience this Helplessness the way I did need to experience my pain over the b/u recently.

I am a bit uncertain about the idea of really trying to revisit the victimization.

My uncertainty is because I have a belief that this is not necessary... .although I do not know if this belief of mine is true or not.

I also have understanding that for a long time in my teens, and early adulthood, I did do a whole lot of revisiting and re experiencing trauma.  I honestly cannot recall my exact process and whether or not I celebrated strengths at the time.

I'm kinda thinking that may be a bit of what I'm doing with this post and a few others?

Doing it in manageable dribs and drabs?

How are you certain that you have increased in your strength following this approach for you?

(Sometimes I worry that too much rehashing is actually damaging as this has been my experience at some times)

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

I would guess that it is the helplessness that is fundamental.

I don't think in anyway that you should put yourself in a position of victimisation (you definitely should not).

What I mean is that you should allow the original feelings that you experienced when you went through those initial experiences (core pain) to piggy back onto any current pain you are dealing with. By that I mean: if you are remembering how your partner left you feeling X in a certain situation, allow yourself to feel X and whilst you are doing that remember all the times you felt X in similar (or dissimilar) situations in the past, including situations with parents and caregivers, and then grieve the whole lot together. In my experience, it is the core pain that anchors the whole situation together. Allow the feelings to intensify so you can get them out of your body where they are stored.

If you feel you've done this already, I'd say don't go over and over it. Instead, write about yourself as a hero, a survivor, reflecting upon everything you learnt from those situations. Really be proud of yourself, congratulate yourself, imagine what the most supportive person you can imagine would say about you and get that affirmation in too.

Might be worth a try... .

Love Lifewriter

x

[going places]

Hey guys!

I am noticing that I am consistently triggered by observing someone who is being abused in some form.  It makes me feel a strong urge to rescue.

This is what drew me to my exN/BPDtraits partner.  My desire to rescue him from his exW with BPD.

It happens and repeats itself with me in many areas of my life.

In thinking of this, I realize that even in times that I am successful at "helping or rescuing," I still continue to feel this urge in the site of abuse and it remains a trigger.

So I thought back... .

I realize my urge to rescue is actually a projection.  That I am in fact trying to recue myself.



So I ask myself: from what?

The answer: From earlier abuse

Could it also be that you want to 'be the person that was NOT there for you?"

So I came to the conclusion that I am riddled with guilt that I was not realizing existed.

My urge to recue must be a cover up for experiencing my feelings of guilt that I am trying to avoid.



So I asked myself what and why do I feel guilty... .

I must feel responsible to feel guilty.  (I do not logically blame myself... I do not think)

So I conclude that I feel responsible for the abuse that I endured.  I am trying to rid myself of this feeling by making myself overly responsible and holding myself responsible for others abuse and bad experiences.  (Yes... .I do do this in many areas of life)

I used to feel like I HAD to take 50% of the blame.

Then I realized: When a woman and her infant child are in the car, buckled in, driving the speed limit, not texting, not distracted, JUST doing what mommies do; she heading to the grocery store to buy groceries and diapers then WHAM a drunk driver RUNS a red light and T bones her car; killing the mommy and the infant child.

What part of this situation is the mommies fault?

What was the mommy doing wrong, that she needed to be ascribed a percentage of the blame?

She was on the same road as the drunk? HOW is SHE to blame for that?

100% of the blame goes to the drunk. HE got drunk, he got in his car, he ran the red light, he killed the mommy and baby.

Sometimes things happen that are completely out of our control, and have nothing to do with 'our part of the blame' because we have not part in it.

Ok... .so now I'm a bit stuck moving along with continuing to think this through... .

I feel like to relieve myself of guilty feelings, I would need to view myself as a victim.

I have long ago decided to not view myself as a victim as this is what creates the reality of victimhood for me.  So my rejection of viewing myself as a victim, leads to me having responsibility for abuse... .so then I focus that sense of responsibility into helping others too much.

I was a victim of abuse.

I am no longer being abused, therefore I am no longer a victim.

I am a surviver.

If what I went thru can help one person walk away from abuse; seek and receive help so they STOP abusing; see light at the end of the tunnel sooner than I did... .Great. It was not a wasted experience. If my kids choose never to abuse or be abused, it was worth it.

Ok... .so I'm actively thinking on the spot here now... .

So another part of me is saying that the issue is NOT the guilt feeling, but my trying to relieve myself of the feeling by different methods.  That maybe I should try to find the feeling guilt, experience it more fully and lean into it?



That lean in method was very helpful in processing my grief and sadness.  Could that be the way to process this guilt that I am hiding within me as well?

Would that make me less compassionate?  Would I feel a sense of loss for losing this guilt that I have suppressed? (Because that is what I feel now at the thought of it)

I don't know what the 'lean in' method is?

Then... .

What is guilt?

Sadness seems more straight forward to me. (Like a primary color)

Guilt seems confusing to me. (What you get when you mix around other colors)

Anger to me seems more like repressed fear. (Also not a primary color)

So is guilt actually not guilt but the result of some other emotion transformed that I am missing/suppressing?

Guilt: A feeling of responsibility or remorse from an offense, crime, or wrong.

Anger: A strong feeling of displeasure and belligerence aroused by a wrong.

Sadness: Unhappiness, grief, sorrowful, mournful.

Anger is the most straight forward for me.

Guilt is pretty cut and dried for me also... .

It's the 'sadness' that confuses me.

I see anger as 'red'.

*I* have justice issues. "There are rules in this game and when you break the rules, there are consequences".

My ex faced no consequences to his choices that destroyed his family, and that pissed me off.

I have since let that go... .put all of my focus on me, and my future, and on my kids (adults) and zero focus on him and the past.

I see guilt as "green".

If you do something wrong, you are 'guilty' of doing something wrong.

I used to 'feel guilty' when I would buy myself something nice / new.

90% of the time I returned it the next day.

I realize now, that the 'guilty' feelings I had were impressed upon me when I was young, and I carried them with me.

Today, I have a clearer understanding for true guilt and imagined guilt.

So now my mind thinks of the word: helpless

I think my suppression of guilt is a way to not feel helpless.  My reaction to seeing abuse is a trigger for me to combat my negative feelings by doing something I perceive as empowering, but the catch is that I think it is actually keeping me stunted.

I hope someone can follow this and help me with coming to a greater sense of clarity for me!



~SF

My first reaction to seeing abuse is 'poor thing, I've been there, I get it' then anger at the abuser.

Helpless: Unable to help oneself, weak, dependent, deprived of strength or power, incapacitated.

I do not see you, or I as "helpless". Not one bit.

[vortex of confusion]

Absolutely!  Yes! I am over-helping to compensate for what I wish was done for me.

This reminds me of something that is said on some of the parenting forums that I have been on. The best way to heal is to reparent yourself by giving yourself (and even those around you) the things that you wish you had. When I say things, I am not talking about material things. I am referring to things like emotional understanding and the basic ability to be a human being.

I even acutely recall many times I tried hard to be noticed for the abuse I was undergoing... .times I tried to reach out... .but failed. 

I am angry at myself for not... .

... .Screaming loud enough

... .explaining clear enough

... .not speaking a word for the fear I held

In some cases, it doesn't matter how loud you scream. A deaf person can't hear you screaming. A blind person can't see you. A person whose mind is closed of will be incapable of understanding no matter how clear you try to be.

I think about stuff with my husband. I tried so many different ways to reach out to him and get his attention and let him know that I needed help. I used to blame myself. I used to be angry for all of the reasons that you give. That anger kept getting compounded because I would try to reach out to other people and would get labeled as codependent or told that I had done something wrong. I don't think that I was able to put that together until I started working with a trauma coach.

When I started talking to her and she told me that I had done everything that was in my power and then some, I suddenly felt better. Not only that, but I would get angry at myself for getting angry. I have had periods where I have been angry at myself because I couldn't stop being angry. I couldn't figure out whether I was a victim or if stuff was all my fault. As a child, I didn't really think that I was abused. I saw my siblings get abused. I witnessed all sorts of horrible stuff. Because it happened to my siblings instead of me, I felt really guilty for saying much of anything or even toying with the word abuse with regards to me. I wasn't abused. I was never laying on the floor in a ball while dad kicked and cussed and screamed. I watched it happen to a sibling but it never happened to me. I considered myself lucky because it wasn't worse.

I am angry at others who noticed or "should have" noticed and "should have" helped but either couldn't or wouldn't.

I have a lot of anger at my mother for not noticing and not seeing a lot of things. In some cases, I feel like my mother would deliberately put me and my siblings in situations that pretty much set us up to be abused or hurt. It is okay to be angry. There isn't a single thing wrong with being angry as heck. You know what else has helped me? Giving myself permission not to forgive. I know that sounds nuts. Everybody emphasizes forgiving and says that you have to forgive for yourself rather than for the other person. If I don't forgive, then I am torturing myself and am wallowing in things, blah, blah, blah. When I was trying to work with a sponsor in a 12 step program, she gave me a lecture about forgiving. All it did was make me angry. Here I was suffering from the crap that I have put up with from my husband and she is telling me to forgive and look at MY faults and a whole bunch of stuff that basically made me feel like everything was all my fault and that things would get better if I could just do a better job of admitted my faults and admitting that I am a bad person that screwed up.

I got off on a tangent there. Anyway, the point is that the people that should have noticed didn't because we live in a society that tends to identify with the perpetrator. If somebody is the victim of something, the first inclination is to dismiss the victim and start asking them, "What did you do wrong?"

Here is a link to an article called 6 Reason Not to Forgive: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/is-psychology-making-us-sick/201409/6-reasons-not-forgive-not-yet

It is a great article because it talks about anger and how it is a good thing. Some snippets from the article:

Despite popular misconceptions, anger has a raw power in it that can be integrated—a power that can help a person stand up for themselves, make future injury less likely, and build a sense of empowerment and self-confidence. In fact, research shows that forgiving too readily can erode self-respect [1] and lead to greater relationship problems and partners that are more disagreeable (link is external). The point is that claiming some of our anger can be healing and productive.

... .

When anger or revenge is suppressed, it gets internalized. What’s so bad about that? Internalized anger often shows up as powerful, painful, even crippling inner-criticism adding salt to the very wound we hope to heal. Additionally, suppressed anger can lead to depression (link is external), relationship difficulties, and a myriad of health problems including high blood pressure, heart problems, headaches, digestive problems, and more.

There was a lot of other good stuff in the article too. I am still working on some of the stuff that you mention. I feel like I am making progress because I am NOT denying my anger and I am NOT trying to worry so much about labels like victim or survivor. Stuff happened. It hurt like heck. I think it was abuse. It is okay for me to be hurt, angry, whatever. I don't need to feel guilty because I am slowly realizing that I didn't do anything that was in your face wrong. Sure, I could have made better or different decisions. The problem with that is that I didn't have the information to make different decisions. When faced with a messed up situation, it is kind of difficult to figure out what the "right" response is. Nobody should have been put in that situation to begin with!

I felt it was the job of the child psychologist and the doctor... .to identify I was abused... .but I also see their likely perspective... .  There was not a lot to go on... they need way more evidence... .Not many options... .And triggering a whole foster care situation of removing me... .Was maybe equally damaging vs leaving me in a toxic situation.

I am going to throw out an idea that might not be too popular. We live in a society where children are routinely marginalized. If you had a family that looked even remotely normal, the knee jerk reaction is to blame it on the kids. Or, to dismiss the abuse as discipline. A whole lot of parents dismiss their children and do not take them seriously. And, if you were a relatively well behaved kid, then you were more likely to be ignored and have your concerns dismissed.