dBPD ex wife doesn't seem to get the shared custody concept

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Divorce judgment not yet signed by court, but a parenting agreement (custody agreement) has been.  It's almost exactly 50/50. 

Two important facts relevant to ex's recent attempt to alter the signed parenting agreement.  First, as she is unemployed for two months of the year (summer vacation, school's out), I had asked her if she wanted to watch our two children on my days, during the day, while I am at work.  Her response was brief: Put them in daycare.  Second fact: I want to have as little to do with her as humanly possible.  I want to see if we can do this co-parenting thing NC, or close to NC. 

Now that the reality of her having nothing to do for two months while her access to her children has been cut in half, she has attempted, through proposed modifications to the property settlement agreement, that I -- get this -- advise her of the names of each and every day care provider, and permit her a right of first refusal when I cannot exercise my parenting time. 

Now, who knows what "exercise parenting time" means.  If I were in prison, I don't think I could exercise my parenting time; I'd be legally incapable.  But permitting the children to be in the presence of an adult who is in some way responsible for their welfare does not extinguish my parenting time.  Also, I'm beginning to think that her lawyer is not too bright.  If we were to agree to this, it would of course be a reciprocal duty and it would mean that whenever the kids are taken care of by her parents, I could show up at their door and say "I'm taking the kids."  It's insane, really and not at all good for the kids. 

The kids' therapist has said to me that one purpose of post-divorce children's therapy is to get the kids comfortable and functioning in both households, and it seems that my ex, because she is a sad and lonely person who views others, including her children, as objects, could not care less about the kids having time with me that is not punctuated by her presence.  She's more concerned with quelling her own feelings of loneliness, or by keeping the kids away from my girlfriend, who isn't just a knockout, but an angel that the children adore.  She fears replacement, I believe. 

Are there others on the board who have witnessed attempts to undermine their own custody or parenting time?  It's like my ex had no idea what her post-divorcer life would look like, and only now is she realizing what the rest of her life will be like, with greatly reduced access to her children and other adults in the lives of her kids. 

 

 

[goateeki]

Divorce judgment not yet signed by court, but a parenting agreement (custody agreement) has been.  It's almost exactly 50/50. 

Two important facts relevant to ex's recent attempt to alter the signed parenting agreement.  First, as she is unemployed for two months of the year (summer vacation, school's out), I had asked her if she wanted to watch our two children on my days, during the day, while I am at work.  Her response was brief: Put them in daycare.  Second fact: I want to have as little to do with her as humanly possible.  I want to see if we can do this co-parenting thing NC, or close to NC. 

Now that the reality of her having nothing to do for two months while her access to her children has been cut in half, she has attempted, through proposed modifications to the property settlement agreement, that I -- get this -- advise her of the names of each and every day care provider, and permit her a right of first refusal when I cannot exercise my parenting time. 

Now, who knows what "exercise parenting time" means.  If I were in prison, I don't think I could exercise my parenting time; I'd be legally incapable.  But permitting the children to be in the presence of an adult who is in some way responsible for their welfare does not extinguish my parenting time.  Also, I'm beginning to think that her lawyer is not too bright.  If we were to agree to this, it would of course be a reciprocal duty and it would mean that whenever the kids are taken care of by her parents, I could show up at their door and say "I'm taking the kids."  It's insane, really and not at all good for the kids. 

The kids' therapist has said to me that one purpose of post-divorce children's therapy is to get the kids comfortable and functioning in both households, and it seems that my ex, because she is a sad and lonely person who views others, including her children, as objects, could not care less about the kids having time with me that is not punctuated by her presence.  She's more concerned with quelling her own feelings of loneliness, or by keeping the kids away from my girlfriend, who isn't just a knockout, but an angel that the children adore.  She fears replacement, I believe. 

Are there others on the board who have witnessed attempts to undermine their own custody or parenting time?  It's like my ex had no idea what her post-divorcer life would look like, and only now is she realizing what the rest of her life will be like, with greatly reduced access to her children and other adults in the lives of her kids. 

 

 

[livednlearned]

Hi goateeki,

It can take a while for things to cool down and both parties to figure out how things will work. Your ex has limitations because of her BPD that are going to be there whether married or not. If she was unreasonable in the marriage, she will be unreasonable after the divorce.

We often recommend here that people do what's called "parallel parenting" for the first year (for some of us, we pretty much stick to this for good):

Cooperative parenting is the style used by families in which conflict is low and parents can effectively communicate about their child.

Parallel parenting is the style used by families in which conflict is high or communication is poor. The first step of parallel parenting is disengagement. This means that you will not communicate about minor things regarding your child, try to influence the other parents parenting style, or deviate from the visitation schedule.

More on this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239558.msg466564#msg466564

It sounds like what she is proposing is pretty standard in a legal sense. I think "exercise parenting time" just means that whenever you can't take care of the kids and plan to get a sitter or someone else to care for them. It's in my custody order too.  

Rights of first refusal is also pretty common. It just means that if you can't watch the kids, or she can't, that the other parents gets the option to care for them first.

Usually, there are a few other sentences that go with rights of first refusal -- especially with BPD involved. For example, mine said that my ex had RoFR, and had to respond within 2 hours. People here have different experiences with it depending on what their BPD ex is like. Mine tried to use it to prevent me from doing anything, and didn't seem to understand that if he couldn't watch S13 when he was younger, then I would find someone else.

It's good to get feedback from others here about their experiences and maybe figure out what kind of language you want if her lawyer is drafting things up -- that way you have a solid boundary with the courts if she abuses it and you need to modify it.

Also, you may want to put the kids in daycare -- it will minimize contact with her. A lot of things are inconvenient and cost more in a BPD custody situation. It's just how it goes, sadly. It's the price of peace of mind.

[goateeki]

Hi goateeki,

It can take a while for things to cool down and both parties to figure out how things will work. Your ex has limitations because of her BPD that are going to be there whether married or not. If she was unreasonable in the marriage, she will be unreasonable after the divorce.

We often recommend here that people do what's called "parallel parenting" for the first year (for some of us, we pretty much stick to this for good):

Cooperative parenting is the style used by families in which conflict is low and parents can effectively communicate about their child.

Parallel parenting is the style used by families in which conflict is high or communication is poor. The first step of parallel parenting is disengagement. This means that you will not communicate about minor things regarding your child, try to influence the other parents parenting style, or deviate from the visitation schedule.

More on this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239558.msg466564#msg466564

It sounds like what she is proposing is pretty standard in a legal sense. I think "exercise parenting time" just means that whenever you can't take care of the kids and plan to get a sitter or someone else to care for them. It's in my custody order too.  

Rights of first refusal is also pretty common. It just means that if you can't watch the kids, or she can't, that the other parents gets the option to care for them first.

Usually, there are a few other sentences that go with rights of first refusal -- especially with BPD involved. For example, mine said that my ex had RoFR, and had to respond within 2 hours. People here have different experiences with it depending on what their BPD ex is like. Mine tried to use it to prevent me from doing anything, and didn't seem to understand that if he couldn't watch S13 when he was younger, then I would find someone else.

It's good to get feedback from others here about their experiences and maybe figure out what kind of language you want if her lawyer is drafting things up -- that way you have a solid boundary with the courts if she abuses it and you need to modify it.

Also, you may want to put the kids in daycare -- it will minimize contact with her. A lot of things are inconvenient and cost more in a BPD custody situation. It's just how it goes, sadly. It's the price of peace of mind.

I'm not putting them in daycare.  I can work from anywhere at any time, and I often work from home and mix time with kids with work.  Also the plan is that on some days, the kids will stay with their cousins at my sister's place.  They love their cousins.  I want them to be with their cousins. 

This RoFR thing seems ridiculous to me.  You're saying that if you're not physically present for any period of time on your days with the kids, you're obligated to contact your ex and ask her if she wants the kids?  This would mean that the kids could never spend a day with my mom or my sister unless I'm there.  It would in effect cut their grandmother and their cousins out of the lives of my children.

My lawyer received the proposal and said to me "Well then you're not getting divorced."

I have from her an admission in writing that she struck our 7 year old son twice in one morning.  I don't want to have to use this but if this RoFR doesn't stop immediately, I will.  I'll commit myself to sole custody.

[livednlearned]

This RoFR thing seems ridiculous to me.  You're saying that if you're not physically present for any period of time on your days with the kids, you're obligated to contact your ex and ask her if she wants the kids?  This would mean that the kids could never spend a day with my mom or my sister unless I'm there.  It would in effect cut their grandmother and their cousins out of the lives of my children.

[/quote]
Other members here feel the same way. It's tricky, though, because it does go both ways. Without the RoFR, she does not have to contact you if she cannot take care of the kids during her custodial time. I opted to have it in my order, and my ex tried to use it to control what I did, and I just ignored him because he totally missed the point of the RoFR. It was for him to have S13. Not for him to stop me from doing things. So he would refuse, thinking that meant I couldn't ask someone else. 

It's one of those family law things that can go either way depending on what type of BPD ex you have, and what you're concerned about.

If the parent agreement is signed, why not have your L politely decline, "My client wishes to stick to the parenting agreement as written and signed."

[goateeki]

This RoFR thing seems ridiculous to me.  You're saying that if you're not physically present for any period of time on your days with the kids, you're obligated to contact your ex and ask her if she wants the kids?  This would mean that the kids could never spend a day with my mom or my sister unless I'm there.  It would in effect cut their grandmother and their cousins out of the lives of my children.

If the parent agreement is signed, why not have your L politely decline, "My client wishes to stick to the parenting agreement as written and signed."

[/quote]
This has been done, his paralegal has informed me.  I feel good. 

[HopefulDad]

Right of first refusal will have parameters built in per your agreement.  For example, you only have to give your ex dibs on watching the kids if you will not be with your kids for 10 straight hours or something like that.  If you are away from your kids less than that, you are free to choose childcare.  You can also include clauses for overnight visits with extended family.

An experienced divorce attorney has seen plenty of arrangements and can advise what is and isn't in your best interest to include in the RoFR clause.

[rarsweet]

The right of first refusal is if you CANT parent during your time. I have tendonitus and one night my shoulder locked. I was in so much pain I was throwing up. I had to go to the ER. I didn't know how long I would be at the hospital so I asked ex if he would take daughter instead of my mom. I knew i was going to be unable to parent for who knows how long. If you are going on a bussiness trip for the weekend or on vacation, then you are unable to parent. Having your kid go to a sleepover doesn't count as being unable to parent. And regularly scheduled childcare or school does not count. Our plan says if either parent is unable to parent for longer than 6 hours, excluding regularly scheduled childcare or school, my plan with my ex husband and older children says 24 hours. You can make it work for you.

[whirlpoollife]

First custody arrangement I did not have the RoFR . Kids sat at their dads alone when they could have been with me. I told my L that so Then on second custody arrangement we had it put in. Xh did not like that. So it has backfired.  He had quit his job, he's home a lot.

If I have to work on my days with kids they have to go to him. I have friends with kids their age that would watch my kids but I can't do that because of the 3 hr RoFR. 

But 99% sure he doesn't tell me and kids don't tell me if he is not home over the 3hr limit.

If I left the kids at my home over that limit, I know they would tell xh. 

Hindsight , as kids are older now. I would not have had the RoFR because I  abide by court orders but xh does not.

It depends on if you have family or daycare that can be their for your kids. If that's the case that's beter than handing them over to x spouse. 

[livednlearned]

I  abide by court orders but xh does not.

This is probably the key takeaway -- whatever parenting agreement you have in place, if your ex is a high-conflict personality, he/she will ignore it or interpret it however.

[catnap]

I have from her an admission in writing that she struck our 7 year old son twice in one morning.  I don't want to have to use this but if this RoFR doesn't stop immediately, I will.  I'll commit myself to sole custody.

This needs to get on the record, even if you do not go for sole custody immediately.  The incident is likely to be considered "stale" by the court if used 6 months from now.  Talk to your attorney about the ins and outs of using this evidence. 

[livednlearned]

Check your state laws, too.

In some states, you can still beat your child with a belt.  :'(

[bravhart1]

The right of first refusal is very tricky with pwBPD, I would use caution if proceeding with it.

THEY always want it, if that tells you anything.

What it meant to our pwBPD was that we had to inform her if we left SD with anyone for any length of time. Which basically meant having to inform her if SD went to grandma house or sleepover etc. or if we simply wanted to have a grown up night out. which is obviously not the spirit of the option, but the way she saw it. It also meant that she was not obligated to tell us if SD went to HER mothers(grandma on other side) because that was too controlling. 

So it boiled down to "hey ex wBPD we are thinking about going to a movie tonight, may we?"

So no we fought to have it removed, never to return.