Wash, Rinse, Repeat

[Cat Familiar]

Max, What happened last night? Were you able to stay in your house? How did your boundary of no verbal abuse or screaming work?

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[maxsterling]

She has lost her voice or gotten a sore throat from screaming.  Headaches, too. 

Last night was bad and then okay.  We had MC, and when it got to the point she would not let me talk, raised her voice, and started cursing and insulting, I walked out for a 5 min. break.  I'm proud of myself.  Our goal now is to use MC to work some kind of structured workbook.  I also asked MC go give us some kind of outline/rules for fair fighting.  W did later "apologize" for yelling.  That in quotes because before bed she started up again - nt yelling but blaming me.  I chose to sleep in the other room. 

One alarming thing - during MC W said that "I make her feel violent".  Yikes. 

[Daniell85]

tbh Max, it sounds like you are pressing every one of her BPD buttons, and she's not coping with all of the incoming stimulation, so she is basically sitting there like a 2 year old plumped down on the floor, raging and howling for all she is worth.

Obviously she is in deep fear, pain, and rage. She wants to hurt you because from her perception you know her well enough to understand the sore spots and you are (from her view) knowingly beating on every open wound. Of course she wants to hurt you "back". She doesn't comprehend yet the path out of it.

I have been reading your posts. Wow, what a volatile situation. Both of you are suffering horribly. I am so sorry 

[maxsterling]

I have been reading your posts. Wow, what a volatile situation. Both of you are suffering horribly. I am so sorry 

Yes, both of us.  Very good point.  I have been no saint as over the course of the past few years I have reverted to some primal coping mechanisms that aren't exactly fair to her, but ensure my own safety and continuance.  The behaviors I am talking about are mainly avoidance for the purpose of avoiding rages - and that means being quiet, not being very open, and taking care of things myself without involving her.  Some of that is okay, because it doesn't need to be a "2-person job" and avoids what I consider enmeshment, where couples are too involved in each other's business.  But on the other hand, I think I have been avoidant at times when I don't need to be, and the end result is that I escape a rage, only to magnify it later. 

I'm proud of myself for walking out of MC last night.  I should have done that long ago.  I felt validation from MC. I think she was concerned for my safety. She did ask if I had considered some other means of getting home.  MC gave us  a sheet about good and bad communication behaviors.  I think when my W looked at it, it fed her shame, and I think she saw herself in many of them. 

I'm also proud of myself for sleeping in the other room.  My group therapist on Monday kept me afterwards because he was concerned for my safety, and made sure I had a safety plan.  I am going to tell him to remind me every week, because his reminder on Monday is what kept me in the spare room.  I need to be careful not to rush back and sleep next to her when she calms, and remember that a few hours ago prior she was abusive and violent. 

[maxsterling]

My goals for now is the same.  First goal - stay safe and take care of myself.  Second goal - short term stability.  Third goal, evaluate my values and needs and see if this r/s can meet them.  Right now, I am tempted to jump ahead to the third goal and immediately declare that this is unworkable.  It may be, but I need to approach that with clarity, which I have none right now. 

Here are the long-term issues I need to consider:

- children with her. 

- sharing expenses with her

- possibly relocating with her

- potentially travelling with her

- my long-term health

- enmeshment, and what it feels like is her desire to keep me away from friends and family.

All of the above are potential train wrecks and could mean considering stress on me.  I really need to learn to be honest with myself here, and then be honest with her.  Because of the extreme volatility of the past few months, I have feared talking about any of the above.  I think I eventually need to get to a place where I set boundaries on the above, and not worry about her reaction, and instead learn to deal with her reaction in the moment with additional boundaries.

[Sunfl0wer]

One alarming thing - during MC W said that "I make her feel violent".  Yikes.

I agree with you Max, this is alarming.

I would be alarmed to be in the presence of a person who feels as though I am in charge of their feelings.  AND they claim that I am making them feel violent.

Even if such a person were to recant their words and try to take them back... .

I would still be left feeling that this person is clearly communicating to me that they sometimes feel violent and they feel that this is out of their control.

I would listen to them.

I would 100% believe them.

This is indeed alarming.

[maxsterling]

One alarming thing - during MC W said that "I make her feel violent".  Yikes.

I agree with you Max, this is alarming.

I would be alarmed to be in the presence of a person who feels as though I am in charge of their feelings.  AND they claim that I am making them feel violent.

Even if such a person were to recant their words and try to take them back... .

I would still be left feeling that this person is clearly communicating to me that they sometimes feel violent and they feel that this is out of their control.

I would listen to them.

I would 100% believe them.

This is indeed alarming.

She prefaced her comment in MC by saying that she does not want me to talk about safety plans afterwards or call the police.  Then she states this about feeling violent. 

I think our MC is starting to clue in on the abuse.  Perhaps that is because I called her own my own and talked about it.  Perhaps it is because MC has noticed my wife's behaviors during session.  Perhaps it is because MC has reached out to my IC and W's IC.  But whatever the case, I know for my group therapy I signed things that said what I say in session is private, with the exception if the T feels that I am in danger, or that a child is in danger.  I wonder what constitutes this determination.   

[Cat Familiar]

My goals for now is the same.  First goal - stay safe and take care of myself.  Second goal - short term stability.  Third goal, evaluate my values and needs and see if this r/s can meet them.  Right now, I am tempted to jump ahead to the third goal and immediately declare that this is unworkable.  It may be, but I need to approach that with clarity, which I have none right now. 

Here are the long-term issues I need to consider:

- children with her. 

- sharing expenses with her

- possibly relocating with her

- potentially travelling with her

- my long-term health

- enmeshment, and what it feels like is her desire to keep me away from friends and family.

All of the above are potential train wrecks and could mean considering stress on me.  I really need to learn to be honest with myself here, and then be honest with her.  Because of the extreme volatility of the past few months, I have feared talking about any of the above.  I think I eventually need to get to a place where I set boundaries on the above, and not worry about her reaction, and instead learn to deal with her reaction in the moment with additional boundaries.

I can see your hesitation about being totally honest about your feelings--there's good reason that you haven't shared  how you feel on these topics due to her previous reactions. Due to her propensity for violent acting out behavior, I'm not sure it's a good strategy to not worry about her reaction and I'm not sure additional boundaries would protect you if she comes unhinged. Please do not minimize her potential danger to you.

[maxsterling]

The latest -

After sleeping in the spare room last night, I did say good morning and wish her well.  She was somewhat receptive.  Then she asked me via text message if I wanted to go to lunch with her.  I agreed.  After lunch, she wanted to talk.  We sat in the car, and she talked, and I listened.  Basically it was this:

She is miserable and she feels hopeless right now.  She hates it here, does not feel close to me, and she feels exhausted by the relationship.  She sees all negatives that aren't balanced by positives.  She feels heartbroken that our relationship is falling apart so soon, and feels that she has done everything she can to make it work. 

I feel the exact same way (well, except for hating it here).  But of course I did not say that.  To me, when she was saying that, what was going through my mind was "engulfment" and that was really what was bringing her down, and less to do with me specifically.  I am sure I am not the first partner she has felt that way about.

She then did apologize for her behavior, but justified it by saying my behavior triggers her.  She also said that I need to change if we are to move forward, saying that she has done all she can. 

The take home here is that this feels like chicken/egg from both ends.  My reality is that I could have said the exact same things - that I am acting the way I do because I am triggered by her violent behavior.  But, I don't because I don't think that is a fair accusation, and is handing control of my behavior over to her. 

She also said that she feels like she is responsible for this relationship failing, and she knows that she is not solely responsible.  I validated that the best I could.  It sounds like part of her knows this is falling apart, that her behavior is bad, and that this isn't the first time this has happened to her.  But the other half of her seems to want to justify this.

[Verbena]

She also said that I need to change if we are to move forward, saying that she has done all she can

I think you have your answer then. 

[Daniell85]

I think it is a little breakthrough if she was able to tell this calmly, without becoming abusive. Maybe you can build on this?

[maxsterling]

I think it is a little breakthrough if she was able to tell this calmly, without becoming abusive. Maybe you can build on this?

yeah, for the most part, this was calm and tearful.  I do feel she shut me down when I tried to express my feelings, but all-in-all way better than it has been.  And I won't discount the affect of me saying "no" to her behavior as part of this. 

[Sunfl0wer]

She prefaced her comment in MC by saying that she does not want me to talk about safety plans afterwards or call the police. 

Did MC let this statement get by her? 

Your safety should be the number one focus.  I hope that MC was able to validate your NEED for a safety plan and that her actions are what warrants the police visit, NOT your choices.

It sounds like she is explicitly stating that not only does she feel out of control of herself, she is wanting to ensure there are no consequences for her doing so.  She both put you in charge of her feelings, actions, and the consequences of her behavior.

If it makes her anxious to talk about calling police when she is out of control... .the yes... .this is a valid reason for you to be quite anxious!

I hope someone in that room put this all back where it belongs, without hesitation... .On her?

If she knows enough not to hit kids in the class... .

Then she is a person capable of restraint, self control, unless she is given free reign without regard or consequence of it... .which is what she is pre defining and setting up... .Very cleverly I might add.

What do you think?

[Sunfl0wer]

T feels that I am in danger, or that a child is in danger.  I wonder what constitutes this determination

I do not believe a T will likely report unless they hear a specific threat such as... .

"I want to kill Max, I think it is the only way to get him to listen.  I'm thinking about poisoning him."

I think if she uses vague language, it is likely not enough.

Couples often will say... ."He makes me so mad, I can just strangle him."  But they do not mean it.

My point... .

Don't sit around waiting for MC to identify and act on a potentially dangerous situation.

It is ultimately your job to ensure your own safety, set boundaries, protect yourself.


People get harmed regularly without MC being informed, or clued in.

I do not believe the last time she hit you in your sleep that she first rang up the MC and said, "Max is pissing me off... .I feel like hitting him in his sleep."

I'm not being silly... .just approaching the logic from a more clear perspective maybe.

[Grey Kitty]

Max, I'm not saying don't listen to her... .I *AM* saying don't believe something just because she says it.

Your behavior does need to change. You need to get better and stronger at enforcing boundaries. (Like leaving, calling the police when appropriate, having a safety plan, etc., etc.) She says the opposite of this. Don't believe her when she says these things.

Because your ONLY chance of having a successful relationship with her is one where you DO enforce boundaries with her, firmly and resolutely, no matter how far she escalates things when you do. It is not what she wants. It is not what she says. It is, however, what she needs if she is going to be in a relationship with you that doesn't harm you.

Do believe she is feeling upset when you do these things. She really does feel that way.

Hang in there. You are doing much better on the boundary enforcement. Keep it up!

[maxsterling]

In the other room again, door locked.  Same dysregulation again, money, etc.  It's just getting so bizarre, it's almost impossible for me to see how I have anything to do with this.  Tonight, she is mad at me for doing exactly what she demanded me to to yesterday. 

I'm starting to think that what my Alanon sponsor is correct - the most loving thing I could do for her in the long run is serve the OOP, and force her to be on her own.  Cut her loose, let her go. 

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

I have written it before, but I will say it again.

It seems to me that you are now your w's trigger, this means that nothing you do and everything you do will cause her to dysregulate, because this has nothing to do with you. This is the disorder in full flow.

How long are you prepared to live in locked room in your own home hoping and waiting for a glimmer of stability from your w that now lasts just a few hours ?

Your Alanon sponsor has given you good sound, clear advice.

Your own body is giving you painful recurring loud, clear warnings.

What might be possible in serving the OOP, is that it proves to be the catalyst that your w clearly needs toward accessing a more comprehensive package of care.

Of course this would be at the expense of your marriage, but it seems to me at the moment that what is going on for you both does not resemble a marriage, just an existence for you both, and a sad one at that.

I understand you are torn about serving the OOP and the impact this will have on you both, but at what cost to you both does staying now serve ?

[Verbena]

I'm sorry you had another bad night.  I saw on another thread that this was about your credit cards.  She asked you to give them all to her, you complied, and then giving them all to her caused another rage?  I agree with Sweetheart that no matter what you do, you are now the the sole source of her rages--in her mind, anyway.

If you are having to lock yourself in another room, I can only assume you fear she will hit you. I do believe you will serve the OOP if she hits you again (and I feel she is dangerously close to another assault), but are you willing to serve it without a physical assault?

Does she even know you have this OOP? She seems so concerned about you calling the police is why I ask.   

[QBert]

Either way, I decided to switch my phone off for awhile and go back to work.

I've learned that before I do this, I should at least tell her that is what I am doing.  Not telling her I am switching my phone off can lead to an episode of abandonment with my BPD partner or fears that something bad has happened to me.

[maxsterling]

Today is a day I am going to focus on elements of my safety plan.  That means, staying out of the house as much as possible, making sure I have the means to go elsewhere if I have to (gas in the car, resources, etc).  OOP - well, I have explored the possibility of serving it without additional physical violence.  It may be to that point. 

For the moment, I have decided I am not going to do anything but do what is necessary to ensure my own health and safety - meaning I'm not going to go into any kind of long-term money planning with my wife.  I have to take care of today.  I realize this is no-win for me.  She can't recognize her role in the financial issues (not working for 2 years), and she won't let me work on solutions, and instead just paints everything as "hopeless".  She actually told me last night that *I* was "dead weight"  .

She also wanted me to admit that I was "controlling" when I called the police on her, which I refused to do.  I said that was a judgment, and I am not going to participate in that kind of discussion.  I tried to validate the underlying emotion there, but at that point validation was futile. 

[Verbena]

Max, good for you for not caving and admitting you "control" her by calling the police.  She needs you to admit this so she shame she feels for having the police come can be lifted off her. 

I saw this behavior during a bad episode with my BPD daughter two years ago.  She tried for months to get me to admit to things that I just couldn't be accountable for in an effort to relieve her own guilt. I never would and she FINALLY let it go.  I also see this same behavior with the world we live in.  HIghly immoral behavior all over the place with the people engaged in the behavior doing everything they can to force those who see it as wrong to cave in and say, "I give up.  If you say it's okay, then I will just agree with you even though it goes against my faith/beliefs." 

They can't be wrong; it has to be us.  We admit to what they say, and their guilt goes away.  Sorry, but I can't do that.  I'm proud of you for standing your ground with your wife on that particular issue. 

[maxsterling]

Verbena - I'm also proud of myself for standing my ground.  I'm not after her to admit she is an "abuser" - why?  Because that is a judgment.  All I want is validation that I feel hurt and scared.  I can validate that she feels heartbroken and scared, but I can't validate that I was "controlling".

Regarding the OOP -- I am pretty sure she doesn't know about it.  But I do know she overheard the police discussing that option with me.  And she's a smart person, so I assume she knows what that means, and deep down she knows her behavior could warrant such an action.  I'm pretty sure others have told her that, and she has probably done a little research on her own.  I also would not be surprised if an ex had one served on her at some point. 

[sweetheart]

Max do you think your w is able to validate your fear and hurt at the moment ? I ask this because she might not be able to because of her own fear and pain.

I also wonder whether there is some importance in your w wanting you to admit to being controlling; because of course you are attempting to control your situation by setting tighter personal boundaries, and through this the aim (albeit somewhat indirect) is to better contain elements of her dysregulated behaviours.

Can you find a way to explore this area with her that acknowledges her fears about control?

[maxsterling]

Max do you think your w is able to validate your fear and hurt at the moment ? I ask this because she might not be able to because of her own fear and pain. 

Not a chance.  My statement was to illustrate a point - I would feel comforted just knowing she hears that I was scared and hurt.  Having her validate a label like "abuser" is meaningless to me.  Conversely, I can validate she felt scared and betrayed when I called police.  But I can't validate that I was only trying to manipulate or control her.  That's validating the invalid, but that seems to be what she wants.

I also wonder whether there is some importance in your w wanting you to admit to being controlling; because of course you are attempting to control your situation by setting tighter personal boundaries, and through this the aim (albeit somewhat indirect) is to better contain elements of her dysregulated behaviours.

Can you find a way to explore this area with her that acknowledges her fears about control?

Of course I was trying to regain control of a situation that I felt was completely out of control.  I wasn't trying to control her, but control MYSELF and my own safety.  So yes, I am trying to control my life by enforcing boundaries.  I can see how she can view it as me trying to control her or punish her from her perspective.

She's so dysregulated that I see no way to explore this right now in any way that she could understand.  The risk of violent outburst is too great, and I need to keep myself safe.  We've gone down this road in MC, and MC has addressed her regarding making blanket judgments and seeing my perspective, but it goes nowhere.  I think this fear of control thing is projection and a flawed defense mechanism that she learned in childhood.  I think she wants me to be her father, and therefore have an excuse to hate me and blame me for her issues.  When she regurgitates arguments at a later time, it's clear that her memory has gone through a filter whereby my actions are blurred with others from her past. 

One comment she has made that I find quite puzzling, is her arguing that she isn't abusive because if she was, I would have taken measures to protect myself and not be with her.     So she doesn't see calling police or staying at hotels or friends houses for a few days as measures to protect myself?  It's almost like she is daring me to kick her out?

[Verbena]

Max, as I have mentioned before I taught school for many years.  In my experience, my students all wanted rules and structure and boundaries.  Sure, they complained about having that sometimes, but deep down they wanted it to feel safe. 

Your wife in many ways has the emotional maturity of some of the students I taught (mostly 7th and 8th graders), or maybe younger.  Maybe deep down she wants boundaries from you.  Her statement that she couldn't possibly be abusive or you would have taken action is truly bizarre because you have done exactly that.  But, she hasn't paid any real consequences for how she has behaved.  She's basically gotten away with a TON of bad behavior, over and over again.

Since you haven't done the ultimate act of protection against her (the OOP), she sees it as you doing nothing at all.  Black and white thinking at its best.   

[sweetheart]

I wondered if you might have explored these areas in MC.

I'm sure there is probably a huge part of her that wants to be rescued from this place she has backed herself into, whatever form that rescuing might now take!

Be very careful max, your w is in a really desperate place, because she will be aware of what she stands to loose, and sadly might not be able to stop herself from loosing it.

I know that in holding fast to my boundaries when my h was in freefall he eventually did stop his onslaught of dysregulations at me. It took a while though and quite a lot of police and hospital involvement. What he came to realise is that I loved him, but would not be with him at any cost, and that seemed to get through to him.

[Verbena]

Regarding your MC, I have to say she doesn't impress me much.  This is the same person who suggested you and your wife might want to start trying for a baby shorty after your wife's attempted suicide, correct?  You MC seems clueless. 

Your wife needs hardcore, in-patient hospitalization and constant supervision at this point, not workbooks and a list of rules for fair fighting. 

[maxsterling]

Since you haven't done the ultimate act of protection against her (the OOP), she sees it as you doing nothing at all.  Black and white thinking at its best.   

Yes, this is push/pull black/white at it's worst.  In my view, this is also mixed with some mild psychosis.  I say that because some of her comments and conclusions are just so bizarre, I can only conclude there is some kind of lost connection with reality.  

And yes, her conclusion about not protecting myself certainly fits in.  My reality is - what more could I do to protect myself besides the OOP?  I've - called police, left the house during violent or abusive arguments, and sought help through a trauma healing center.

[maxsterling]

Regarding your MC, I have to say she doesn't impress me much.  This is the same person who suggested you and your wife might want to start trying for a baby shorty after your wife's attempted suicide, correct?  You MC seems clueless. 

Your wife needs hardcore, in-patient hospitalization and constant supervision at this point, not workbooks and a list of rules for fair fighting. 

/quote]

I agree.  She needs more than just talk therapy and MC.  I think our MC sessions need to be more structured, with us working on some kind of plan or workbook.  And I think her IC sessions need to be more structured, like DBT or some sort of specific therapy.  Hospitalization?  Not sure about this one.  I'm still shocked they released her so soon after a suicide attempt.  But unless she is a danger to herself or others, or needs to be medicated, I don't see where this would do much good.  I'm not saying she doesn't need to be placed on medication, but I think this could be handled on an outpatient basis, provided that she is managed closely.

[babyducks]

Your wife needs hardcore, in-patient hospitalization and constant supervision at this point, not workbooks and a list of rules for fair fighting. 

Verbena - I don't want to hijack Max's thread but wanted to mention that there is a school of psychiatric thought that resists in-patient hospitalization for borderline personality disordered patients.   The theory, as it was explained to me by a professional in the field, is that symptoms worsen in a patient while hospitalized.     I am sure I didn't understand all of the explanation but the gist was that the attention of hospitalization can be perceived as a 'reward' and thus reinforces the negative behavior.     It can also increase opportunities for blaming and shifting of responsibilities.   All situations are unique but my experience has been "get them stable and get them right back into their home environment" .   Not saying I agree with it.   Just saying in patient may not be that much of an option.

'ducks