Am I in denial?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I had a recent bad experience with a life coach/trauma coach. I posted a thread on the staying board and one on the legal forum because CPS got involved.

I am here because one of the things that was said to me was, "I see a woman that is being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused and is in deep denial."

That has been haunting me. Yes, my husband has done some things that could be considered abusive. However, I do not feel abused at all. At least not any more. All it took for my husband to stop being a dork was for me to stand up and tell him to knock it off. I have spoken with several of our friends that know a lot of our story and they don't see it either. Yes, my husband is juvenile and difficult to live with at times but I do not consider him to be abusive.

I really want to have a conversation about this because it is making me question my own reality once again. It bugs the crap out of me that I was told to trust myself and my gut feeling yet when I tried to share my gut feelings I was told that I am in deep denial.

What the heck?

[vortex of confusion]

I had a recent bad experience with a life coach/trauma coach. I posted a thread on the staying board and one on the legal forum because CPS got involved.

I am here because one of the things that was said to me was, "I see a woman that is being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused and is in deep denial."

That has been haunting me. Yes, my husband has done some things that could be considered abusive. However, I do not feel abused at all. At least not any more. All it took for my husband to stop being a dork was for me to stand up and tell him to knock it off. I have spoken with several of our friends that know a lot of our story and they don't see it either. Yes, my husband is juvenile and difficult to live with at times but I do not consider him to be abusive.

I really want to have a conversation about this because it is making me question my own reality once again. It bugs the crap out of me that I was told to trust myself and my gut feeling yet when I tried to share my gut feelings I was told that I am in deep denial.

What the heck?

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey V of C-

I know it's out of context, but were you told that with rapport?  Was it part of a larger conversation and more appropriate in that context?  Cynical me potentially sees a life couch trying to make a living, and telling someone they're in denial is an easy sell, because they can't see it.  It depends on what you felt when you were sitting there looking the coach in the eye, how much power you're giving him, and how much you trust him (her?).  We can always trust our gut feel, when we're in a calm state and can feel it intently; what does your gut say about this coach?

[vortex of confusion]

My gut says the coach was over zealous and was out to save some poor pathetic woman from some mean old monster of a man.

The thing is that she never met me in person. All 5 sessions were done on the phone. She never met me in person. She never met my kids. She never met my husband. The people that know me and my husband find that statement laughable.

But, I do think it is something worth thinking about because I am being charged with neglecting my children by leaving them with my sex addicted spouse who has at no point ever looked at porn around the kids. Heck, when he was actively looking at pornography before we had kids, he didn't even want to look at it with me. Any and all of his acting out behaviors he tends to keep very private and on the down low.

Yes, my husband can be a jerk and he can irritate the kids to no end. After that lady made those claims, I questioned all of my kids extensively. One of the kids laughed and said, "I think us kids would hurt dad before dad would hurt us."

I have vented a lot and I have said some pretty ugly stuff about my husband. However, I don't think it adds up to the way she made that statement. The way the coach made that statement, I felt punched in the gut and broke down into a sobbing pile of goo.

[fromheeltoheal]

It's said 55% of communication is body language, 38% is tone of voice, and 7% is the words, so on the phone we only get 45% of the 'real' communication.  So I'd say your judgement of over zealous has merit, and it's a little irresponsible to spew that kind of thing to someone she's never met.  Plus you don't get the benefit of seeing her when she's talking, which would tell you much more.  If you talk to her again, how about Skype?  Better.  Which is why my ex avoided it.

I've worked with CPS before and the intent can be OK, but it's government after all and they screw up and overshoot in the name of 'protecting the kids' all the time.  I hope you can navigate that OK, sounds a little silly and it's good you talked to your kids about it, and it doesn't sound like they feel threatened or at risk, which is what matters.

What happened is less important than how it made you feel.  We need compassion, empathy and validation at times like this and an overzealous life coach might not be the person to provide it.  Got anyone else?

[vortex of confusion]

I will not talk to her again. I am pretty sure that she reported me when I told her that her services are not what I need at this time.

I don't currently have anybody other than friends and this forum. Quite frankly, I am going to have to get through this and make sure that my kids are safe before I even think about trying to talk to anybody else.

One of the good things that came of this is that my husband talked to his therapist and the next time he goes, I am going to go with him. I have not spoken with his counselor before. I think it would feel good to be able to say some things to my husband with somebody there to help us with communication. I still don't feel like my husband really gets how some of the stuff he has done has impacted me.

And, I am feeling a lot of anger and resentment towards my husband. He gets his 12 step program and a sponsor that he can call whenever he wants. I tried the 12 step program for spouses of sex addicts and walked away feelings like a broken piece of crap. I tried talking to a life coach and walked away feeling like I am neglecting my kids and trusting a monster.

My best friend and I were talking the other day. Our husbands are very similar in that they are both overgrown man children that have problems. The difference between her husband and mine is that hers is dangerous and mine isn't. She and I both have very high standards when it comes to dealing with our children. The focus of our parenting is gentleness and compassion and all of that other touchy feely stuff. I have a very small tolerance level for a lot of stuff. A lot of that goes back to my childhood. I have always been pretty sensitive. My mom tells stories of how all they had to do was say "Ommmm" and I would start crying. Yes, I put on one heck of a tough front and I am a strong person but there are some things that I am not going to tolerate. That coach lady crossed my line.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi VOC!

I think that you are aware that there have been things in your r/s that have harmed you.  That is why you saught the help of a trauma coach!  You were inviting being challenged to work on these things, to do the hard work of looking inward, and facing what needs to be faced.

The problem is... .

Your trauma coach has deceived you and emotionally abandoned you.  You did the right thing.  You were honest, open and vulnerable and willing to do the work.  She did not uphold her end of the bargain.  Instead, she violated your trust and willingness.

It is no wonder you are questioning yourself, your gut, your reality.

My biggest trigger that I think I have... .is when a situation messes with my understanding of reality.  When this happens, I do not feel safe.

Please do not blame yourself vortex.  I believe she was triggered and initiated a Karpman triangle where she could rescue someone from abuse that only she precieved.

I think you know this on some level.

I also think you are such a caring person and want to be certain that you are not harming anyone with any possible denial therefore you are second guessing yourself.

Please see if you can find a new qualified therapist to help you deal with the original issues and now also the additional issues of being decieved by a trauma coach.

 

[eeks]

I read your other threads.  It sounds like this "trauma coach" sees herself as this hard-hitting "tough love" kind of person and because that's who she wants to be, even when the basis for that is not there, she tries to find it.

It bothers me that people with inadequate training (or adequate training, but haven't completed enough of their own healing and self-awareness work to avoid even subtly imposing their issues on the client) hold themselves out to be able to help people in varying degrees of vulnerability who don't always know better (and sometimes, literally can't know better, precisely by virtue of the issues they have that are the reasons they are seeking professional help).  You do know better, but it's still frustrating not to be able to find someone who can provide the type of support you need.

I don't know what the process is with couples therapy, might be promising that you're seeing your husband's T, would they advise that you see someone else for individual therapy?  I know your negative experience with therapy (you had a thread before that I replied on) but it's clear that although nothing has worked out yet (the stuff with the sponsor) you are seeking some form of support in your life, and I'm wondering what the best way to find a competent, suitable professional is.

Also, although the statement about "physical, emotional and sexual abuse" was out of place, there could be something valuable about this type of inquiry had it been delivered more skillfully.  Maybe it isn't abuse, but could there be something in there about your... ."baseline" of well-being that you expect to have in a relationship, what you believe you "deserve", what you may rationalize as "normal" or explain to yourself in other ways but that is nonetheless somehow not in line with your true desires or values.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey VOC,


This is quite off topic... .  Sort of... .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLO84sFCS3IvXUZAYFhQfretGLEo_3N7K7&v=bYpPbqV9mIk

About mins 5:00-7:00.

It is a video about PAS, however, this is a snippet regarding the responsibility of the treating therapist... .and their role to not cause harm by their treatment.  The person speaking in the video is a reputable therapist speaking from the voice of a parent that was harmed by a therapist missing a complete diagnosis, thus offering a wrong course of therapy to him and the child.

I find it validating.

(Our child therapist did not recognize what was going on.  I do not blame him. Mom likely not only ran a highly effective campaign, but also may have known to intentionally brainwash the child in a way that caused her to present less symptomatic... .to not be found out.)

My point is, this woman professes to be a trauma coach.  She should be held to some standard of "treating" even/esp if not licensed.  Heck, maybe she purposely does this as some vigilante move to intentionally report things... .who knows?  She caused you and your family harm.  She should not practice in this manner.  Ideally, she should get feedback to change her method and increase her training and also receive adequate supervision.

I'm not saying that you have any responsibility over her.  I'm not saying you should peruse anything any farther, you likely have been through enough.

I'm only pointing this out because I think it is important and can likely help you feel validated in having entrusted someone who betrayed that trust. 

She is a professed "trauma coach" ... .it is her job to relieve you of trauma!  NOT cause harm!

[sweetheart]

Hi VOC,

I just went back and read your introductory post, I wonder what you would make of it now if it was the Intro of a new member?

Your description of your relationship from your intro post to me was describing an emotionally abusive relationship, and speaking as someone who was wholly in denial about my h's abusive behaviour I know how easy it can be to just explain away more and more. To minimise and accept low level abuses as just part of 'who they are.'

However you have been on the boards for a while now, has your relationship changed from the Introduction ? Have there been improvements in the way your husband now treats you? How does your relationship compare today?

Coming from a dysfunctional FOO as I did seriously distorted my perspective on what was acceptable behaviour within a relationship and within a family. I tolerated way more than was healthy all the while making excuses for what was fundamentally emotionally abusive behaviour from my husband.

I too was called on it many times by professionals that crossed my path who accused me of being in denial and minimising my husbands abusive behaviours. I was angry and upset that they could suggest such a thing, but for me, some of their observations were right. It just took me a long while to accept that abuse has many forms, I could name the angry rages easily as abusive, but less so the control, manipulation and criticism I was subjected to over many years. I accepted the low level abuse because at some fundamental level I felt as though I deserved it. It was familiar to me, being invalidated was part of my FOO pathology.

Denial can be a very powerful defence mechanism, it kept me stuck for many years. 

[jhkbuzz]

Hi VOC,

I just went back and read your introductory post, I wonder what you would make of it now if it was the Intro of a new member?

Your description of your relationship from your intro post to me was describing an emotionally abusive relationship, and speaking as someone who was wholly in denial about my h's abusive behaviour I know how easy it can be to just explain away more and more. To minimise and accept low level abuses as just part of 'who they are.'

However you have been on the boards for a while now, has your relationship changed from the Introduction ? Have there been improvements in the way your husband now treats you? How does your relationship compare today?

Coming from a dysfunctional FOO as I did seriously distorted my perspective on what was acceptable behaviour within a relationship and within a family. I tolerated way more than was healthy all the while making excuses for what was fundamentally emotionally abusive behaviour from my husband.

I too was called on it many times by professionals that crossed my path who accused me of being in denial and minimising my husbands abusive behaviours. I was angry and upset that they could suggest such a thing, but for me, some of their observations were right. It just took me a long while to accept that abuse has many forms, I could name the angry rages easily as abusive, but less so the control, manipulation and criticism I was subjected to over many years. I accepted the low level abuse because at some fundamental level I felt as though I deserved it. It was familiar to me, being invalidated was part of my FOO pathology.

Denial can be a very powerful defence mechanism, it kept me stuck for many years.  

Yes... .emotional abuse is insidious. My therapist once said, "wouldn't it be easier if emotional abuse left bruises just like physical abuse? Then there would be no question about whether or not what you went through constitutes "abuse."

[maxen]

hi Vortex. this is complex stuff! i've been told, i'm sure many people have been told, things about ourselves we never imagined. i had one therapist suggest to me that i was autistic. that was preposterous, but i did wonder for a bit and did ask one or two others. on the other hand i had a girlfriend once tell me "you have no idea how big you are" (she meant tall) and she was right: i had never seen myself as a "big guy" and it had never occurred to me that that sort of thing would make a difference in social relations (and i now use it to good effect as D of D in my school).

when my T tells me things she's usually right, but not always, and if she isn't, then i'm not in denial to think so. but how do i trust my own judgement? in my case i have to overcome the unrelenting doubt i've had about my opinions, my knowledge, my sense of presence in front of others. it's a slow process coming out of a lifetime of habits of thought.

i read your post on legal and what that "coach" did was appalling. counselors have agendas too (as others above have said). if you were looking for objective criteria about abuse, there's this reading: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships . and i'm sorry about the 12 step program! programs vary and individual meetings vary. do you have Alanon in your area? their main audience is those who have a r/s with alcoholics, but they also work well with other constituencies.

[vortex of confusion]

I just went back and read your introductory post, I wonder what you would make of it now if it was the Intro of a new member?

Oh wow, I re-read it not too long ago at the suggestion of somebody else. I just went and re-read it again. You make an excellent point!

Your description of your relationship from your intro post to me was describing an emotionally abusive relationship, and speaking as someone who was wholly in denial about my h's abusive behaviour I know how easy it can be to just explain away more and more. To minimise and accept low level abuses as just part of 'who they are.'

However you have been on the boards for a while now, has your relationship changed from the Introduction ? Have there been improvements in the way your husband now treats you? How does your relationship compare today?

I don't even recognize myself in that post in all honesty. Things are so very different now. If my husband gets a certain tone with me, I tell him, "don't take that tone with me." Not too long ago, he was bugging me about something on the phone. I hung up on him and didn't call him back. When we did finally talk, I told him why I hung up and he said, "Yeah, I realized that after you did it. That is why I didn't call you back." The kids now say that dad is annoying because he is so goofy. I can pretty much go out whenever I want and do whatever I want. A couple of Sundays ago, my brother came over and invited me to go to lunch with him and his wife. I went and nobody said a word.

When the stuff with the coach and the 12 step lady happened, my husband was there for me. He tried to listen and be present. There is a limit to his ability that has nothing to do with abuse but rather his lack of communication skills. He has admitted that he struggles with connecting and having an emotionally intimate relationship. Somewhere along the way, he read a book that I have about emotional abuse. He immediately saw himself in the pages and tried to do better. He has since admitted how much dysfunction was in his family. He never considered his own behavior abusive because that is how HIS parents treated him growing up.

My husband has made it through all 12 steps and he tries to see his counselor as often as the budget will allow.

Coming from a dysfunctional FOO as I did seriously distorted my perspective on what was acceptable behaviour within a relationship and within a family. I tolerated way more than was healthy all the while making excuses for what was fundamentally emotionally abusive behaviour from my husband.

I too was called on it many times by professionals that crossed my path who accused me of being in denial and minimising my husbands abusive behaviours. I was angry and upset that they could suggest such a thing, but for me, some of their observations were right. It just took me a long while to accept that abuse has many forms, I could name the angry rages easily as abusive, but less so the control, manipulation and criticism I was subjected to over many years. I accepted the low level abuse because at some fundamental level I felt as though I deserved it. It was familiar to me, being invalidated was part of my FOO pathology.

Denial can be a very powerful defence mechanism, it kept me stuck for many years. 

Hmmm. . .I don't think that I am in denial about his behaviors. I will openly admit that some of the stuff that he has pulled was abusive or bordered on being abusive. The part that seems to get left out is that once I realized what was going on, I took active steps to change it. It took a while to get things to change. Also, all I needed to do was figure out how to assert myself in the right way. My husband is a bit of a, um, not sure how to describe it but the first word that comes to mind is weenie/wimp. I am not saying that in a disrespectful way at all. His mother had him so beaten down that all I have to do is talk to him like his mother does and he becomes compliant and backs down. When I told my dad and other people in real life about some of the stuff, they all told me that I needed to take charge. My husband isn't somebody to be scared of at all. He is somebody that needs a strong woman to take care of him and tell him what to do. I know how horrible that sounds. A lot of the abuse that happened at different times over the years was usually around some big event like the death of his father, a falling out with my sister, him being diagnosed with diabetes, a big move, job changes, a major natural disaster where we lost most everything.

When I look at the patterns of behavior by him and me, I can see where things went wrong. I don't feel like I ever sat back and just let stuff happen. I might struggle for a while but I usually push back and get back to that healthy place. When I was talking to the coach, I was trying to give her a background of the kinds of things that I have overcome and am trying to work through. I made it a point to tell her how much progress that I think I have made. All I was wanting was somebody to listen to me so I could talk about that stuff and get it out of my system so I can move forward in a positive manner.

At the end of the day, I have the upper hand. I have skills and abilities that my husband will never have. I have access to resources that he doesn't. I might get upset at him for not doing things. The problem is that he can't do them no matter how much I want him to do it. If he asks somebody for help, they aren't likely to help. If I get on the phone and make some calls, I get stuff done. In a lot of ways, I feel sorry for my husband. I don't want to sound arrogant but I know that he has told me that it is difficult for him to NOT be jealous of me. I make everything look easy. He has repeatedly told me that he feels like he isn't strong enough for me. Even when we were dating, his friends told him, "She is too much woman for you." We used to get a good laugh out of it.

All I really needed to do was rediscover who I am. For a while, I got really weird. I became so passive and anti-violence that I wouldn't even stand up for myself. That isn't on my husband. No, he shouldn't have done some of the things that he did. I am not excusing that at all. I am seeing that he was relying on me for guidance and I wasn't in a place to give it.

In grew up in such a crazy house that was very loud and confrontational, so I was trying to do the exact opposite and went too far the other way. For me, this has been a process of finding that place of balance where I can be a gentle parent and a gentle wife while still digging into that fiery spirit when necessary.  I know how to turn on the crazy. I know how to open a can of whip azz. I threw all of that away for a while and focused solely on being a mom. When I woke up one day and realized that all of my babies were out of diapers and I no longer had any nurslings, I didn't know what to do with myself. (To give a bit of perspective, I spent 11 years where I was nursing and/or pregnant.) I imploded as much as my husband did.

When my kids were babies and I was pregnant, my husband was soo wonderful. Foot rubs, belly massages with cream, reading to my belly, trips to the store to get odd things any time of day or night, being serenaded with guitar playing and singing, doing almost all of the grocery shopping. If I didn't want to cook, he would pick something up. He would dress up as Santa at Christmas time. He was an awesome birthing assistant for me. We have written quite a few songs together. He doesn't question some of my weird ideas. I am a home birthing, home schooling, weirdo. I have shaken up his world far more than he has shaken up mine. That isn't defending him. That is the truth. He is the philosopher and I have asked him a lot of questions over the years regarding his philosophy and religion that has shaken him to the core. All of the things that he thought he was certain of, I questioned. I didn't question in the spirit of meanness. I did it as part of a Socratic discussion. That is something that he and I used to love to do together. We would challenge each other in these deeply philosophical discussions.

I have read a lot of different lists about characteristics of healthy and unhealthy relationships. I don't remember exactly when it happened but I do remember there being a time when I found myself thinking, "Hey, something isn't right" so I would go do research. I used to share a lot of that stuff with my husband as a way to wave a red flag in front of him. When I look at the whole picture in a more balanced light, somebody could just as easily claim that I abused him. That isn't denial about him and it isn't making excuses for him. That is the cold hard truth.

[sweetheart]

VOC,  

I couldn't think what to write, your reply just left me smiling a lot. We have one child, although I wanted lots it just wasn't to be. Your description of being pregnant and having a baby made remember how beautiful my husband was during this time. It's good to reflect, reevaluate and see where we are now as individuals, as couples, as families.

When we were referred to CPS for something that my h did to himself I was really angry, confused and upset. I realised though that I had nothing to hide, I knew that they could interview our son and they would find a child who thinks his father is amazing within the limitations of the illness. I knew as a parent I was prioritising the needs of our son over the needs of my husbands illness which as I see it is the only way. My h will always be looked after by services, but I won't and neither will our child.

If anything the CPS referral was a scary nudge to check that all was as it should be.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC,  

I couldn't think what to write, your reply just left me smiling a lot. We have one child, although I wanted lots it just wasn't to be. Your description of being pregnant and having a baby made remember how beautiful my husband was during this time. It's good to reflect, reevaluate and see where we are now as individuals, as couples, as families.

When we were referred to CPS for something that my h did to himself I was really angry, confused and upset. I realised though that I had nothing to hide, I knew that they could interview our son and they would find a child who thinks his father is amazing within the limitations of the illness. I knew as a parent I was prioritising the needs of our son over the needs of my husbands illness which as I see it is the only way. My h will always be looked after by services, but I won't and neither will our child.

If anything the CPS referral was a scary nudge to check that all was as it should be. 

I have so many sweet stories about my husband and little things that he has done over the years. Very few of them are that recent though. All of the recent history seems to have a lot of conflict in it. I think that is one of the things that got left out during those sessions. I didn't even get to tell my whole story. All I got to share is the bad stuff because that is the stuff that was most on my mind. Heck, there are times when I have no idea how to talk to people about my life because it seems that no matter what I say it is seen as all good or all bad. It is good AND bad. My husband can be a jerk but I can be just as nasty back. I can see how one might think that I am some poor little abuse victim. I was trying to be vulnerable with her and I was trying to share my feelings instead of keeping myself in check and trying to stay balanced. To have somebody tell me, "Oh you need to feel your feelings" and then bust my chops for sharing those feelings is infuriating.

If you want another cute story: When the girls were younger, when daddy would come home from work, we would sit outside and wait for him. He would stop at the end of the driveway (ours is long) and wait for the girls and I to run out and greet him. Then we would pile in the car and ride up the driveway together. Or, there are the nights that we would sing and dance and do the Hokey Pokey in the middle of the living room to try to tire the girls out. Or, there are the times when the girls were babies when he would take them and sing to them in Latin. OMG, his voice is so beautiful when he sings like that. Somewhere along the way, all of that changed and he became a bit of a grumpy butt that was impossible to live with at times.

I talked to my oldest daughter one time about her dad. I worry that the girls will have problems because my husband and I have had problems. Her assessment is that dad is just juvenile. He isn't really abusive as much as he is juvenile. I talked to another one of the girls and asked her if she was afraid of dad hurting her. She said, "Us kids would hurt dad before dad would hurt us." The CPS stuff has really led me to do even more checking than I was already doing.