Interesting revalation on her end

[maxsterling]

I guess she got into a spat with her friend.  And then she had a revelation that she gets the most annoyed by people that she loves the most.  I asked her why she thinks that is, and she said that everyone she has ever loved has hurt or betrayed her... .

"I hate you, don't leave me."

Considering she's been diagnosed BPD for years, and she has gone to therapy for this, and this is cornerstone of the disorder - I find it odd that she is suddenly realizing this.  I certainly hope she addresses this with her therapist when she gets home.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ColdEthyl]

It's always interesting to me when my H gets those "Aha!" moments. The spaghetti doesn't always stick to the wall, though. IE for years my H has had a problem with going into the kitchen to get something to eat. If someone else is in there like my brother or a kiddo, he will turn around and refuse to eat that day. In the past, he has had clear moments where he himself said it's not their fault he has this weird problem. But just last night, he rehashed the whoole thing as people need to read his mind and know exactly when he wants in the kitchen so he can go in there. He says "If I want to go in the kitchen and there's someone else in there, well obviously they need to eat more than me and it's more important so I won't eat then."

Don't ask my why he does this. I do not know.

[maxsterling]

ColdEthyl - wow, that's weird!

In the case of my W - it's always the same thing.  She gets close to someone, then eventually the person becomes annoying and W snaps.  I've seen it happen with a dozen or more friends over the past few years.  When I met her, she had two "best friends".  Interestingly, both were friends in which she never spent much time in the same city with.  Most of their friendship developed long-distance.  From my perspective, this cycle is blatant.  I can't believe she is just seeing this now.  She has been going on and on lately about having no friends here, how she has difficulty with friendships, and then turns around blaming everyone else.  Today's AH-HA moment was her recognizing she is just as annoyed by her "best friend" as she is with me. 

[Verbena]

I am not surprised she got into it with the friend.  :)o you think she may come home sooner than she planned?

If your wife could ever understand that the common denominator in all the drama is her, she might be able to get better.  It's the blaming and the projection that keeps her going in circles with no improvement.  

[ColdEthyl]

She gets close to someone, then eventually the person becomes annoying and W snaps.

The last 'friend' my H had ended with a physical altercation between the two of them, and my H putting a sledgehammer into his TV. So... .yeah. I get where you are coming from, and I'd much rather he didn't have friends.

[maxsterling]

Verbena -

I so agree.  There is a chance she may come home sooner.  I doubt it, though.  I think she can intellectually understand, at times, that she is the common denominator; however, she doesn't understand it emotionally.  The BPD tells her it must be someone else's fault.  She does plenty of work on herself, and that is much more than many others here report.  She has gotten sober, she goes to AA meetings, she goes to therapy, seeks help for this problem or that problem.  But the end result is about the same.  So, she may think "I need to learn to quit yelling at Max," rather than, "I am hurting Max and myself with my yelling."  I still think in her mind, she sees her bad behavior as justifiable because of whatever circumstances.  Until she truly realizes that she is destroying all of her friendships on her own, nothing can change.

[GaGrl]

I think your wife continues to look for a formula that, if followed, will make it all better.

And of course, there is no formula, No set of rules, No step/action table... .just going deep and doing the hard work o herself.

[Verbena]

I agree that your wife does an extraordinary amount of therapy and counseling.  Getting sober is quite an accomplishment and she should be proud of that.  The key ingredient that is missing, like you said, is recognition that she is responsible for her behavior, that she is at fault for behaving the way she does. 

[Sunfl0wer]

It sounds to me there is in fact no revelation.

This is a woman known to have issues regulating and processing her emotions.

Whoever is in front of her will serve to be used for the purpose of projecting those feelings.

When she was in close proximity to you, she likely called on another and said similar things behind your back about the dynamic between you and her.

The only difference in this scenario is that you are now getting the pleasure of having the other perspective.  (The outsider who is not being directly projected onto)  Instead of you being the screen for projecting on... .instead of you being the persecutor in the Karpman triangle... .now her friend is serving this purpose.

It is still the same woman I am hearing.

The roles are shifted... .nothing sounds different to me. 

Whoever she is in close proximity to... .when that changes... .will again take the role of the screen to project her feelings onto.

Do you think this theory is plausible?

[Sunfl0wer]

I think she can intellectually understand, at times, that she is the common denominator; however, she doesn't understand it emotionally

www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newCDV_90.htm

Locus of control describes the degree to which individuals perceive that outcomes result from their own behaviors, or from forces that are external to themselves. This produces a continuum with external control at one end and internal control at the other.

[maxsterling]

Do you think this theory is plausible?

I would say likely.  I just can't believe this is the first time she has had such a thought, especially since she has alluded to similar at times.  I think you are spot-on here.  Me being out of the picture places me in a different role, and her friend now occupies the role I had.  When I look back over the course of this r/s, I've seen this role shift before.  I am usually painted white when others are painted black, and vice-versa.  More often, I see it between her and two friends.  One she gets annoyed with, so she becomes closer to another friend whom was previously painted black, or a new friend altogether.  There are at least two friends of hers that were labeled as pure evil that she re-bonded with when she had a fall out with someone else. 

The only "revelation" here is that I haven't heard her explicitly state (to me) what she did today.  I don't think this is such a new thought for her; i think it was her vocalizing a justification for why she treats me like crap (in other words, maybe a way to win me back over).

[Sunfl0wer]

It is also possible that she is repeating a phrase her friend shared to smooth things over after a spat.  Maybe her friend said, "Hey, no sweat, we always get mad at those we love the most, we love deeper, therefore we feel stronger... .so let's make up". Or something similar... .who knows?

The only "revelation" here is that I haven't heard her explicitly state (to me) what she did today.  I don't think this is such a new thought for her; i think it was her vocalizing a justification for why she treats me like crap (in other words, maybe a way to win me back over).

Maybe.   Why would she explicitly state what she did?  Did you ask and she avoided?  Or is that what she typically does?  (No need to bother with this question if you are off gardening the heck out of things!)

[formflier]

 

She may have "tried on" this phrase before... .

And keeps "tweaking" it as it becomes applicable. 

My guess is that you wife will have many "revelations" about this before it "takes" or she gets comfortable with it.

FF

[takingandsending]

max,

My wife falls into the same pattern. She is a sexual abuse survivor, has been working on herself ever since I have known her, has surmounted one obstacle after another. But has not truly close friends, makes "fast friends for life" with people who live very far away that serve as a wonderful echo chamber to validate her and inevitably let her down when she is in crisis and needs them. Then, gradually, or sometimes quickly, they become too limited for her expansion, or they are too demanding. It is a never ending cycle. All that I can say for certainty is that I am the only one in her life who stuck with her and didn't apparently believe the message that all the other life long friends figured out pretty quick.

Some of her friends are great people, really caring, and others are superficial, but in the end, they all end up in the same trash heap. I don't believe this will ever change for her. More important, what are you going to do to make it change for you? Are you still going to the men's group, still reaching out for support? Please don't let yourself become too isolated by your wife's illness. I wish someone had been able to convince me of that 15 years ago.

[maxsterling]

Weird long conversation with her.  She's annoyed with friend because of friend's drama.  She's annoyed because friend's family is judgmental of her and how she dresses. Then the admission that she does the same to me (wow, are we getting somewhere?).  Then the admission that she struggles to not be judgmental of others.  Then her telling me I need to get a haircut because my appearance is important to her, and when I was less than enthusiastic or said I do not have money for a fancy haircut and would just get a cheap one, she said she was feeling angry... .

In summary, I heard:  "I hate it when people are judgmental of me and drag me into their issues, so I try not to do that to others.  But let me be judgmental of you because it makes me angry that you don't take care of yourself the way I like."

[maxsterling]

Who predicted she would come home early?  That's looking likely now... .

[Grey Kitty]

One thing I learned in MC is that everybody does it.

Everybody saved their worst behavior for the people closest to them.

the range of how bad the worst is can be very wide. And that the specific behavior varies. But this is normal.

Just like getting more annoyed and upset about what the people closest to you do.

Dunno if telling your wife this will help anything, Max.

Meanwhile enjoy your time apart. Even if it is cut short.

[Verbena]

Who predicted she would come home early?  That's looking likely now... .

That was me.  Because you used the word vacation, I was thinking at first that she flew to some vacation/tourist spot.  I was envisioning her causing drama with people at the hotel or wait staff or something, then coming home early and blaming it on how she was treated poorly. 

Then I asked and you said she went to visit her "best friend" and I remembered that friend from your wedding--not someone who sounds very mentally healthy herself. 

I have another question for you, Max.  Do her parents (dad, step-mom) know anything about what has gone on recently with your wife? 

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

If your wife could ever understand that the common denominator in all the drama is her, she might be able to get better.  It's the blaming and the projection that keeps her going in circles with no improvement.  

Anybody have the "magic words" to approach projection with pwBPD?  If she were talking to anybody else I think my w would acknowledge projection as a behavior, but shuts down when it comes up in our discussions.

[formflier]

If your wife could ever understand that the common denominator in all the drama is her, she might be able to get better.  It's the blaming and the projection that keeps her going in circles with no improvement.  

Anybody have the "magic words" to approach projection with pwBPD?  If she were talking to anybody else I think my w would acknowledge projection as a behavior, but shuts down when it comes up in our discussions.

Probably a good idea to start a new topic on this.  In that post write out what you would like to say... .don't filter it.

Then... .we can help interpret!     

FF

[maxsterling]

I have to say, I am a bit curious what happens going forward with this friend.  Does this trip become the end of the friendship?  Do they repair things before she leaves? 

This is someone my wife somewhat idealized - fashion conscious, single mom, same kind of pain issues.  I think my wife looked to her and thought "I can do it, too."  If the friendship is to end and she paints this friend black, will that change her opinions on the above issues?

This is a friend whom she has gets into short falling out situations, but they always reconcile.  And to my knowledge, there have never been any huge, ugly blowups.  With the other friends whom she no longer talks to, there have always been huge, ugly blowups.   It sounds like right now, my wife is just really annoyed, but she is containing her anger, and it hasn't gotten down to vicious name calling or insults.

[Grey Kitty]

I have to say, I am a bit curious what happens going forward with this friend.  Does this trip become the end of the friendship?  Do they repair things before she leaves?

Yes, you are curious. Yes, you are concerned.

But no, it isn't your issue, and you have no influence over it. Don't get stuck going down that rabbit hole too far! There is plenty for you to pay attention to for yourself!

[maxsterling]

I have to say, I am a bit curious what happens going forward with this friend.  Does this trip become the end of the friendship?  Do they repair things before she leaves?

Yes, you are curious. Yes, you are concerned.

But no, it isn't your issue, and you have no influence over it. Don't get stuck going down that rabbit hole too far! There is plenty for you to pay attention to for yourself!

Ha!  Exactly.  Maybe interesting to observe, but not worth wasting time trying to predict.  What happens is what happens. 

Interesting that the insights are continuing.  I'm noticing a level of self-awareness from her right now that I don't think I have seen from her:

- The need to detach from someone else's drama and take care of herself

- Seeing her friend's pain issues for what they are (prescription pain medicine abuse)

- Seeing how her friend is not being present for her son,

- Seeing how material things mean nothing for a healthy relationship,

- Noticing how it's the yelling between the friend and the mom that is bothering her most, the rest of the behavior is manageable.

I'm hoping that by noticing all of the above and vocalizing it to me means she is seeing herself in some of it. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Interesting that the insights are continuing.  I'm noticing a level of self-awareness from her right now that I don't think I have seen from her:

- The need to detach from someone else's drama and take care of herself

She felt overwhelmed and trapped with you.  You did not agree to grant her indefinite immunity over her feelings, actions, and future abuse.  She knows she cannot contain herself. So she was in a bind.  She escaped facing and managing her feelings about it, by leaving the situation, and visiting her friend. 

Max, I think what happened is great.  You set a boundary, and she is running around within the confines of it.  You have told her how far is too far and she is running around... .feeling the sides and edges of that boundary and seeing what it is like and if there are weak spots.

If you had agreed with her that you would not call the police if she becomes abusive again, she likely would not have ran to the friend.  (Instead, she would have had permission to behave any way she felt like in your presence... .not needing to run off vacation.)

Can you see how this possibly can be a person who is aware_{(she actually is probably not aware of the boundary relating to her behavior and is more likely only reacting to a boundary)} of a boundary and trying to adjust to it? 

I imagine that when she returns, at first, she will be able to connect with you a little better as her friend is the focus of her dichotomous thinking (not you ATM) and while her mind needs to resolve her own guilt and feelings over what went down, she will confide in you and use you as a support.

I also imagine that when she reaches a point of satisfaction with creating a story about the events of her friend, that her mind and feelings are content with, she will shift her focus back to you, as you are now in front of her and serving her needs of projection.

As you feel the focus slowly shift back towards you... .  Remember... .the first thing she will like look for again... .is to challenge that boundary that was buggin her right before she left.  She has several options/tools that she may use to challenge that boundary:

1. She can pick a fight, declare you unworthy of respect - lash out self righteously

2. She can cajole you, try to convince you that it feels intimidating or threatening and she would be much better anyway without it... .and it is the boundary's fault that you want a boundary.

3. She can guilt you... ."I can't very well keep a job and serve time in jail."

4. She can try fear and intimidation - "Just call the police! who do you think they will believe anyway when they see my bruises?"

Be aware as shifts occur and what their function is and you can stay a step ahead of her and be in a better position for guiding things intentionally.

[Sunfl0wer]

Interesting that the insights are continuing.  I'm noticing a level of self-awareness from her right now that I don't think I have seen from her:

- The need to detach from someone else's drama and take care of herself

- Seeing her friend's pain issues for what they are (prescription pain medicine abuse)

- Seeing how her friend is not being present for her son,

- Seeing how material things mean nothing for a healthy relationship,

- Noticing how it's the yelling between the friend and the mom that is bothering her most, the rest of the behavior is manageable.

What I hear is a list of negative traits she has "discovered" in her "friend." She is a woman trashing her friend.

She has always been good at pointing out another's faults, except it is usually you.

Did she admit to any faults of her own?

Did she say that she holds almost 50% of the r/s responsibility about what went down with her friend?  Did she show regret and contemplate a more loving manner she could have delt with her friend that recognizes her friend is likely having her own personal struggles? 

Or is she simply painting her friend the "bad friend."

I do not hear any insight here.  I do not see the self awareness.

What is different is your perspective.  She likely said "insightful" things about you to another in order to complain and vent about you, when you were the object of her negative projections.  The only difference is that you are on the other end of the triangle right now.  So the view is much nicer.

Usually:

Max = persecutor

W=victim

Other= rescuer

Now:

Max = rescuer

W = victim

Friend = persecutor

It feels good to have shared good feelings, communication and not feel like the target of all of a persons anger.  It feels good to feel helpful and as though you may be working a bit together. However, because she is still playing a victim role, this is no insight.  This is just a shift in what she is showing to you.

She likely went to the friend and was there to complain about you the whole time.  She likely ran from you, for her friend to rescue her, but her friend likely did not buy into it completely, and likely friend tried to hold her responsible for something about it.

She runs from being held responsible or accountable.  This is reliable.

This is important to know... .it shows her motivation... .because this is the motivation that is likely what helped her maintain not physically attacking you for fear of the consequence of your boundary. (So she instead ran off)

Remember:  *She is highly motivated by being held responsible.

[123Phoebe]

Hi Max,

Interesting that the insights are continuing.  I'm noticing a level of self-awareness from her right now that I don't think I have seen from her:

- The need to detach from someone else's drama and take care of herself

- Seeing her friend's pain issues for what they are (prescription pain medicine abuse)

- Seeing how her friend is not being present for her son,

- Seeing how material things mean nothing for a healthy relationship,

- Noticing how it's the yelling between the friend and the mom that is bothering her most, the rest of the behavior is manageable.

I'm hoping that by noticing all of the above and vocalizing it to me means she is seeing herself in some of it.  

Sunfl0wer raises an excellent point:

Usually:

Max = persecutor

W=victim

Other= rescuer

Now:

Max = rescuer

W = victim

Friend = persecutor

Meanwhile, you've been a "victim" to her abuses.  The triangle is a nasty ride to be on

Until we can recognize and I mean see it clearly: we are victims to ourselves, persecutors of ourselves and others in "need" of rescue.  Problem is, we find it extremely hard to rescue ourselves.  

First things first = Get off that drama triangle

[formflier]

First things first = Get off that drama triangle

So... .the question is... .how to do this? 

I would think one step is to not participate in "rescuing" her from her friend. 

All of these issues and self revelations seem like wonderful things for her to discuss with her T... or P... .but not sure that getting too deep in the with a husband is a good idea.

Maybe that is what Max needs to think on.  What discussions will and won't I have when she comes back. 

FF

[an0ught]

Hi maxsterling,

what I can see is some self reflection by her. Maybe it is just a one-off due to two blow-ups with two different people in a row. Maybe she is making significant progress. The truth I suspect is somewhere in between.

Where I can see progress is her reflecting and sharing with you. In some sense that is good. It is in line with the - certainly tumultuous - discussion about children. There is more truth spoken between the two partners and that is healthy. Sunlight is the best disinfectant; validation is a lot about emotional and factual grounding. As in every distressed relationship these truths are not pleasant but getting them out takes power away from them and creates new space to move in.

I'm sharing the concerns about triangulation. Dysfunctional BFF relationships are common,  often interfere and are used as a lever against us. But then they also help to stabilize at times. Her ability to reflect on the BFF relationship is helpful but it creates the potential for drama. The BFF relationship is really her problem and however much it is tempting to advice her on it or encourage her to break it off - it is really, really her problem. The way I would handle it is with some validation but trying not to go deep here. And then boundaries on deeper discussion and advice and pointing to T.

I find this discussion very interesting. However... .

... .there was a fair amount of abuse in this relationship and this break should be an opportunity to reset the rules. Where are your boundaries and what steps have you taken to protect yourself better when she is back?

[formflier]

There is more truth spoken between the two partners and that is healthy. Sunlight is the best disinfectant; validation is a lot about emotional and factual grounding. As in every distressed relationship these truths are not pleasant but getting them out takes power away from them and creates new space to move in.

Max,

Was she respectful and "nice" when she was telling you these things?  I get the vibe she was.

If that is the case... .I would have a "revelation" with her that you really like that tone of conversation with her... .you appreciate her insight and hearing about her feelings about her.

Say it... .get in... .get out... .move along... .don't linger on the topic.  But... .very important that you express that you like this part of her... .and want to see/hear more.

Then... .it lays a possible avenue so when she wants to start talking about you and your issues... .you can redirect to her.

You can also say that you are still considering your issues... .and will bring them up to her in a few days... .after more reflection and thought.

See where I'm going here?  You want to show appreciation when she is self reflective... .about her.

You avoid... .disengage... .when she wants to opine on your issues... .especially when that is not invited... and at bad time.

Thoughts?

FF