Back after a few years... maybe its my own neediness?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So I once stomped my way through these boards about 5 years ago with a crazy BPD girl that wrecked me hard, but recently I've been involved with a new girl that I became really attached to quickly and her own push/pull got me addicted like the other.  I think she may have some cluster b type things but the real thing I want to ask or how to work on is MYSELF.  If I was less needy or desperate for validation and reciprocation I think I would not have fallen victim to these women.  It would be like 'see ya!" and thats that.  Yet I look at my phone, waiting for a call hour after hour... .

Disgusting.

[Sword]

So I once stomped my way through these boards about 5 years ago with a crazy BPD girl that wrecked me hard, but recently I've been involved with a new girl that I became really attached to quickly and her own push/pull got me addicted like the other.  I think she may have some cluster b type things but the real thing I want to ask or how to work on is MYSELF.  If I was less needy or desperate for validation and reciprocation I think I would not have fallen victim to these women.  It would be like 'see ya!" and thats that.  Yet I look at my phone, waiting for a call hour after hour... .

Disgusting.

[daz_bpd]

Get involved in activities that add value or skills to you and your life. Have your boundaries and values written down and refer to them daily. Learn and understand the difference between hooking up and having fun versus building real, meaningful relationships that are aligned with your hopes and dreams.

Both yoga and dancing give you an opportunity to meet new woman and also rejuvenate the soul. Learning a new language is a great way to date others from different cultures / countries.

We do tend to attract the same woman until we develop and grow ourselves.

Keep dating other woman and practice the 'Abundance Mentality' (avoiding being fixated on one person by dating multiple woman and choosing her from many options)

Remember she is not 'in control' of you, you are giving up your control and responsibility in how you conduct yourself, particularly regarding attachment and addictions.

Meditation will help 'letting go'

[Mike-X]

I am sorry that you have found yourself in another high-conflict relationship. What is it that you are getting out of the "validation and reciprocation"? My therapist once asked me, ":)o you love yourself?" Have you considered your own self-esteem issues and self-validation issues?

I definitely appreciate the post.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sword, Agree w/Mike-X: self-acceptance and self-love are key concepts here.  Do you accept yourself, just the way you are?  Can you honestly say that you love yourself?  If the answer to either question is No, or if both answers are No, then you have work to do, my friend.  If you do the work, you will be less likely to attract, or be attracted to, a SO with emotional problems or a personality disorder.  The question is, are you willing to undertake this assignment in order to get to where you are hoping to come out?

LuckyJim

[Sword]

Hey Sword, Agree w/Mike-X: self-acceptance and self-love are key concepts here.  Do you accept yourself, just the way you are?  Can you honestly say that you love yourself?  If the answer to either question is No, or if both answers are No, then you have work to do, my friend.  If you do the work, you will be less likely to attract, or be attracted to, a SO with emotional problems or a personality disorder.  The question is, are you willing to undertake this assignment in order to get to where you are hoping to come out?

LuckyJim

What do I do to start loving myself?  I have a lot of hate.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sword, As I said, you have work to do.  Your problem is much more common than you might think.  Have you considered seeing a T to discuss?  It might help.  I suspect that almost everyone who has been in a r/s with a pwBPD has a degree of shame and self-loathing, which sort of goes with the territory.  You are not alone, believe me.  It's a process of taking stock, accepting that you've made some mistakes, and learning to love yourself despite your shortcomings, which can be viewed as battle scars which make you the unique person that you are.  Mindfulness meditation is another way to get the hang of what I'm recommending.  You can probably find books on this subject, too.

LuckyJim

[Learning_curve74]

LuckyJim is spot on. When we don't love ourselves we can easily fall for anything that looks like love from other people. It temporarily seems to fill the hole where our self-love makes us complete.

A lot of us here have personal issues to deal with, ones that contributed to us getting into and tolerating a BPD relationship that healthier more emotionally mature individuals may have rejected. A therapist or counselor can help you navigate the journey towards self acceptance, growth, and discovery.

It's okay to have the feelings we experience, it's that we also have to be able to step back to avoid distorted thinking and acting on it in unhealthy it destructive ways. Everybody can feel lonely and unlovable at times, but not everybody lets that feeling get themselves into unhealthy relationships. And we're not even doing it "wrong", we're doing it the way we've probably always done it. We just need to learn a different way if we want a different result.

I would recommend start doing things for yourself that you enjoy that are constructive. And look into either therapy/counseling and/or self-help.

What kind of person do you want to be, and what is the gap between who you are right now and who you want to be?

[Lucky Jim]

A lot of us here have personal issues to deal with, ones that contributed to us getting into and tolerating a BPD relationship that healthier more emotionally mature individuals may have rejected. A therapist or counselor can help you navigate the journey towards self acceptance, growth, and discovery.

You nailed it, learning_curve74.  I used to wonder why we stay in a BPD r/s when others would have run for the hills.  The answer, of course, is due to our make-up, that is to say, the personal issues you describe that require dealing with.  Generally those issues relate to our FOO and/or past traumas, which we prefer to avoid, yet a r/s with a pwBPD brings these issues front and center.  In some ways, a BPD r/s is like a crucible that forces us to confront our dormant personal issues, which in this light is a positive thing.  Yet it's hard to emerge unscathed.

LuckyJim

[Sword]

How is self-love not vanity?

That was one thing that was hard about the woman I left, was her EXTREME vanity, touted by her job mainly, she endlessly told me how many people she saved, how many doctors look up to her etc etc (nurse on helicopter).  It really ate at me given that right now my life feels boring.

[Lucky Jim]

No, self-love has nothing to do with self-aggrandizement, self-righteousness, bragging or vanity.

It's about caring for oneself.  You could say it's caring enough about yourself that you eschew destructive behavior and won't tolerate abusive people.

LJ

[daz_bpd]

One therapy session revealed I had a very low sense of self-worth. And the main focus after that was developing my self-image, that it was aligned with how secure, stable people viewed me. I was constantly praised by others, but when it came to my ex, she told me "its weak you need constant attention and praise". I felt completely unappreciated and taken advantage of, but that only motivated me to try please her more, to no avail.

One thing my ex-BPD did so well is she knew how to bring me down, and attack me at my weakest spots. During conflict, she would always point out my weaknesses (using the Fear, Obligation, Guilt, F.O.G tactics), whenever i didn't do as she says I wasn't 'being a man for her' or i was acting 'like a woman' when arguing with her, which always angered or upset me because i prided myself in being centred, masculine and controlled. If i argued with her on valid points - like how to spend and manage money, or if i withdrew when she became hostile and unable to communicate, it was always my "weakness as a man not being able to 'handle her'".

It seems most of us are hyper-vigilant about not seeming too egotistical that we end up being too fragile and dependent on others for our sense of self-worth. We have to regain our ability to measure ourselves on our own standards, on values beneficial to us and our loved ones. Trying to measure or gain some sense of self-worth from troubled people that project their own insecurities onto us is unfair, unhelpful and destructive.

[Lucky Jim]

It seems most of us are hyper-vigilant about not seeming too egotistical that we end up being too fragile and dependent on others for our sense of self-worth. We have to regain our ability to measure ourselves on our own standards, on values beneficial to us and our loved ones. Trying to measure or gain some sense of self-worth from troubled people that project their own insecurities onto us is unfair, unhelpful and destructive.

Totally agree w/that, daz.  It's about getting self-esteem from within, rather than from people who are emotionally unstable.  My BPDxW attacked my masculinity, too, as a means to manipulate me, and I was foolish enough to fall for it.

LuckyJim

[Learning_curve74]

How is self-love not vanity?

If love is a deep feeling of caring for another's well being and desire to be a part of their life, then self-love is a necessity not vanity. And how can you love another if you can't take care of yourself and want to participate in your own life?

[joeramabeme]

What do I do to start loving myself?  I have a lot of hate.

Hi Sword, I just got through reading Stop Walking on Eggshells for the second time.  The book has 2 parts.  Part 1 all about BPD and Part 2 all about the Non.  In the part about the Non there is a section regarding boundaries, healthy boundaries and how developing these are a healthy expression of self love.  It is well worth reading and explains how this is not selfish or self centered but healthy.  In short, how can you give yourself to someone else when you don't have boundaries that define who you are.  That is selfish, asking someone else to define them for you and of course, you are bound to get hurt because those boundaries (which you do have) will get crossed. 

Knowing how to put up healthy boundaries defines who you are and who you are not, what you can or cannot accept in a r/s.  This may be an a good place to start to learn how to have self love in a healthy way.

[Sword]

One thing my ex-BPD did so well is she knew how to bring me down, and attack me at my weakest spots. During conflict, she would always point out my weaknesses (using the Fear, Obligation, Guilt, F.O.G tactics), whenever i didn't do as she says I wasn't 'being a man for her' or i was acting 'like a woman' when arguing with her, which always angered or upset me because i prided myself in being centred, masculine and controlled. If i argued with her on valid points - like how to spend and manage money, or if i withdrew when she became hostile and unable to communicate, it was always my "weakness as a man not being able to 'handle her'".

Yeah, interesting, my ex did nearly the same, I would bring up points and this is her literal words 'Honey if this is too hard for you you can leave at any time, even if this is the worst month of my life'.

[Eye438]

A lot of us here have personal issues to deal with, ones that contributed to us getting into and tolerating a BPD relationship that healthier more emotionally mature individuals may have rejected. A therapist or counselor can help you navigate the journey towards self acceptance, growth, and discovery.

You nailed it, learning_curve74.  I used to wonder why we stay in a BPD r/s when others would have run for the hills.  The answer, of course, is due to our make-up, that is to say, the personal issues you describe that require dealing with.  Generally those issues relate to our FOO and/or past traumas, which we prefer to avoid, yet a r/s with a pwBPD brings these issues front and center.  In some ways, a BPD r/s is like a crucible that forces us to confront our dormant personal issues, which in this light is a positive thing.  Yet it's hard to emerge unscathed.

LuckyJim

I really like your last 2 sentences here, totally rings a bell with me. Very enlightening.

[eeks]

What do I do to start loving myself?  I have a lot of hate.

I used to say, "I look inside myself where the self-love is supposed to be and all I see is a black hole."

Some people think you can learn to love yourself.  Some think you can only give yourself what someone else has given you.  I tend to fall towards the latter view (e.g. attachment theory).  There are smart people on both sides  

I also have a hard time believing there is any such thing as "self-hate", because when I observe my own anxiety, brutal self-criticism, always when I pare it right down the criticism and beliefs such as I am "not worth loving" are about extreme fear of losing important relationships (past, present, future... .yep all of those).

I find this a useful explanation:  www.psychosynthesispaloalto.com/pdfs/OpenInnerChild.pdf  - that we need an "external unifying centre" outside of ourselves, so that we can feel "I am seen, therefore I exist", but after we receive that we become able to see (and accept, and love) ourselves, we have an "internal unifying centre".

So if the word "self-love" makes you go "ugh" maybe you could start with self-acceptance?  or self-compassion? 

[joeramabeme]

I find this a useful explanation:  www.psychosynthesispaloalto.com/pdfs/OpenInnerChild.pdf  - that we need an "external unifying centre" outside of ourselves, so that we can feel "I am seen, therefore I exist", but after we receive that we become able to see (and accept, and love) ourselves, we have an "internal unifying centre".

Eeks, Great post and feedback. 

I had an opinion based question for you or anyone else that cares to chime in.  Here it is; in 12-step recovery they teach you must have a "higher power" in order to stay clean.  Since this higher power is not physical (cannot touch, hear, see) do you think it is possible that a unifying centre can take the form of a non-physical presence that brings about self-love?  If so, would that imply, for those of us who did not receive a healthy availability of parenting as children, we could learn to love ourselves without having a physical centred presence? 

I ask the question because I think it is a very interesting one and something I have wondered about for awhile.   In summary; is there a relationship between psychology and spirituality?  And if so, is this an area that is underdeveloped for practitioners. 

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, just jumped out at me when reading your reply.

[eeks]

I had an opinion based question for you or anyone else that cares to chime in.  Here it is; in 12-step recovery they teach you must have a "higher power" in order to stay clean.  Since this higher power is not physical (cannot touch, hear, see) do you think it is possible that a unifying centre can take the form of a non-physical presence that brings about self-love?  If so, would that imply, for those of us who did not receive a healthy availability of parenting as children, we could learn to love ourselves without having a physical centred presence?  

I ask the question because I think it is a very interesting one and something I have wondered about for awhile.   In summary; is there a relationship between psychology and spirituality?  And if so, is this an area that is underdeveloped for practitioners.  

Sorry if this hijacks the thread, just jumped out at me when reading your reply.

I don't think it hijacks the thread, because we are still talking about "sources of self-love".

Similar thoughts have occurred to me, "no wonder people rely on God or 'the universe', individual human beings are such a let-down sometimes!"  And I can see how the feeling of a higher power might feel like something to rely on, to use as a sort of "anchor" when nothing else is reliable in that way.  

Again, I don't always agree with the common self-help thinking on this one, I'm not so sure it's about "learning to love oneself" as it is engaging in the sometimes laborious process of untying all of the knots around the ways you weren't loved in childhood.  Not learning to love yourself, but peeling off the barriers to discover the love that you are.

I just had a conversation on facebook with a very smart friend of mine who says that my mother was emotionally abusive towards me.  I had never thought about it that way.  My mom's father was probably NPD or traits, and she was sexually abused at age 4 by a family friend, and I always wondered how she turned out as functional as she is.  Maybe the answer is that she didn't.  (I've always known my father is not mentally healthy and we haven't had a good relationship since I was 10, but thinking of my mother as emotionally abusive as well is relatively new)

Even though I know my mother cared for me, the word "abuse" gives me peace, somehow, and allows me to own my experience and my story a little more than I did before.  (I'm surprised my therapist has never used it, although he's pointed out the impact of both my parents' issues on me.)  For me, anyways, when I "can't figure out what's wrong", why I can't make my life work and succeed in career, relationship, etc., I have a tendency to blame myself.  But to really be able to say what happened to me, no more no less, I feel like is my next step, and there may be others who need to do that before they can "self-love".

And I have to assume (going back to the original post) that going through this process (however we do it) is likely to make us less susceptible to "try to win the love back" that the pwBPD withdrew during devaluation.

[joeramabeme]

And I have to assume (going back to the original post) that going through this process (however we do it) is likely to make us less susceptible to "try to win the love back" that the pwBPD withdrew during devaluation.

Eeeks, this is good.  I would change the word "win" to "earn".  I have expended a lot of effort to earn love from someone that has love but is incapable of expressing it in a healthy way.

Also, FWIW, I too was talking with a smart friend who said that the field of Spiritual Psychology is alive and growing.  He mentioned Integrated Family Systems.  I haven't looked into it yet, but apparently this is one thread that has developed in that discipline.

[Reforming]

Hi Sword

I can understand how can you might equate self love with vanity, but as the other posters have said they are not they are not the same.

I think vanity is generally shallow and destructive - an obsession with something that's superficial (beauty).

Healthy love is deeper and more grounded

You can love another despite their flaws and weaknesses (we all have them) recognising that though someone is not perfect ( nobody is) they are still worthy of love.

I think of a lot of us have a very powerful self critic that punishes and undermines us when we don't match up to a completely unrealistic self image. Deep down we believe that we have to be perfect to be worthy of love

I've found that learning to confront my inner critic and identify and support the vulnerable, part of myself - inner child work is very good for this - really helpful.

Therapy can really help with this too.

Ultimately exploring your FOO is not about blaming your parents - though this can be a stage. It's about understanding the forces that shaped you so that you see yourself with compassion and understanding and free yourself from self loathing and blame.

It takes work and commitment, but it's really worth the effort.

Reforming

[Eye438]

Hi Sword

I can understand how can you might equate self love with vanity, but as the other posters have said they are not they are not the same.

I think vanity is generally shallow and destructive - an obsession with something that's superficial (beauty).

Healthy love is deeper and more grounded

You can love another despite their flaws and weaknesses (we all have them) recognising that though someone is not perfect ( nobody is) they are still worthy of love.

I think of a lot of us have a very powerful self critic that punishes and undermines us when we don't match up to a completely unrealistic self image. Deep down we believe that we have to be perfect to be worthy of love

I've found that learning to confront my inner critic and identify and support the vulnerable, part of myself - inner child work is very good for this - really helpful.

Therapy can really help with this too.

Ultimately exploring your FOO is not about blaming your parents - though this can be a stage. It's about understanding the forces that shaped you so that you see yourself with compassion and understanding and free yourself from self loathing and blame.

It takes work and commitment, but it's really worth the effort.

Reforming

what you just said there is and should be very clear for most of us, it is for me at least, very well put!

[eeks]

Also, FWIW, I too was talking with a smart friend who said that the field of Spiritual Psychology is alive and growing.  He mentioned Integrated Family Systems.  I haven't looked into it yet, but apparently this is one thread that has developed in that discipline.

I'm not finding anything online called Integrated Family Systems.  Was it Internal Family System therapy, by any chance?