Need advice re sleeping arrangements at ex BPD/NPDs partners house

[lucylou]

Hi   I normally post on the children of Parents with BPDs board as my mom is NPD/BPD so I am a newbie here.  I need advice re a situation with my ex partner who has NPD. We had 4 children together over 10 years and separated about 8 years ago. Luckily I left when they were fairly small. Our oldest son is now 20 and has Aspergers . Our other sons are 16 and 15 and we have a daughter who is 12.5years old.

He re married and his wife, who I believe has BPD also had a son from a previous relationship. He is my ex' s scapegoat and has been treated abusively by him for a number of years.This boy was also treated abusively by his biological father. I know there was domestic violance in her marriage to him. He does not see his father. My ex and his wife also now have a son together who is of course their golden child.

  My ex has just bought an expensive and lovely house with his wife, (so they can brag of course  )  and it has just been bought to my attention that it only has two bedrooms. Obviously One bedroom for her two sons and one for themselves. They previously lived in a 3 bedroomed house and that was too small really but to move to a 2 bed with 5 children in the household when they could afford it I think illustrates their lack of thought for everyone elses needs except their own. My problem is that i learned today our 15 year old and 16 year old sons are sleeping on the sofas (not sofa beds, but sofas not ideal but not horrific ) and our daughter who is 12.5 years old is sleeping/sharing the same bedroom with her step brother aged 14  and her half brother aged 9. They visit their fathers every other weekend from friday night to sunday 4pm. I feel very uncomfortable about this and feel it is  inappropriate and need advice as to how to handle it.  Her son is showing signs of Narcissism including pinching and hurting his younger brother when no one is looking and he enjoys humiliating him and teasing him until he cries. I am worried for the safety of my daughter. He has girlfriends I do know that and of course I am not saying just because he is a  step brothers he will do something untoward. However I am uneasy about the whole situation. Is this unreasonable do you think? I could not live with myself if I didnt act to protect her. I am going to challenge my ex on it and am thinking about stopping them from sleeping over there at least for the time being until he makes appropriate arrangements. Is this unreasonable too?  As soon as he knows something has been said about the sleeping situation he will take it out on our children and accuse them of causing problems or spoiling the holiday that they will be going on in a few weeks. This is his common tactic and it has made me reluctant to challenge him over things in the past including asking for money for essentials (he tells how much he has paid for things and how he cant afford this/that for himself  because he bought X,Y,Z for them) . He pays child support but its a pittance and hardly puts food on the table and he gets relief on the support if they stay over at his depending on how many nights per year.I really wonder if that is probably one of the reasons he wants them to stay because it benefits him financially. He has recently  bought a boat, a touring caravan/motorhome and of course this new house and numerous nice cars.He pays about $500 per month child support.Last week he rang his 20 year old  son the day after his birthday not to ask him how his Bday was but to berate him over a bank charge for  a website my son has created for his College degree in computing.My ex has also been getting the benefit of it too for his own web business but of course that was not mentioned.He told him that it has spoiled their holiday as he needed the money for their holiday extras ( the cost of the website was just over $200 so not big money) and that this $200 will count as his christmas present and his wife was screaming sarcastically "Merry Christmas" at my son in the background... .I think that gives you an idea of her personality.

So Guys I need your valuable experience of where to go with this? I am not good at boundaries because of my NPD mother. I am co dependant so dont relish confrontation and I feel like the bad guy if i do stand up for myself and children. I also have social anxiety disorder. I find it difficult to challenge them because I know they will become psychotic and irrational and vindictive towards the children and they will try to make them feel guilty. They may threaten to cancel the upcoming holiday out of spite.I am worried about all the stuff going on and whether this environment is affecting my children.They seem ok but I do worry. I know they frequently say nasty things about me. My own mother was going over to their house at one point because I dont speak to her anymore and she decided to get back at me by joining forces with them and as a way to by pass me seeing her grandchildren. I dont like to ask about the children about all this as it puts them in the middle.On the other hand I do regret not asking them enough as when I do ask how things are over at their fathers, lots of stories get relayed to me about all the inappropriate stuff that is said and the 18 rated movies etc they are allowed to watch. I would never forgive myself if anything happened to my daughter or my sons because of their lack of responsibility . I have let them have regular visitation over the years because I believed that was the right thing to do, and certainly my oldest son has begun to see very clearly how the land lies with his father and how abusive he is . I have gently talked to them about NPD and BPD because of my mother initially and as I want them to have some understanding about this condition to protect them from meeting a partner with the same disorder. Help please  :'(         

[livednlearned]

Ooof, that is a lot of BPD/NPD for one family.  :'(

Welcome to the Coparenting board, I'm glad you came here to share what you're dealing with. I completely hear you, 100%, on the desire to raise kids who don't choose partners with PD.

Can you tell us a little about what your D12 is like, and how she copes when she is over at her dad's? What kind of relationship does she have with her step and half siblings? With the BPD step mom? With her dad?

Sometimes there are stealth moves and effective communication techniques that can work, although this can place a lot of burden on the kids. 12 is pretty young, especially if she is not assertive. What kind of relationship do you have with D? Will she be open to working through possible solutions with you, and discussing your concerns? Not explicitly -- there are ways to be appropriate with her. You have good instincts and your fears are appropriate, especially given the ages of the kids and their relationships.

There is also the possibility that protecting your D means asserting a boundary, and working through the likely ramifications. We have a lot of senior members here who have years of collective experience with custody orders, so maybe we can help you think about several different strategies that you can work through, and then choose how you want to approach this.

I think it's hard for those of us who grew up with BPD in our own homes to calculate how unhealthy a home might be. Maybe we can work through some of your concerns here, too, to try and understand what kind of emotional resilience your kids have, and how they're dealing with the other home. I imagine they are affected by it, the question is how and to what degree. There are also some key skills that you can use with your kids that might help them as they navigate these rocky waters.

LnL

[rarsweet]

I have to agree that this really isn't appropriate. The question is what is the solution? Do they maybe have a basement they could make a bedroom out of?

[Turkish]

This is a hard one. I might speculate that you Ex thinks it's safer for your daughter to be sleeping in the same room with younger boys, but even a 9 yo feels uncomfortable to me. It's likely that he may be not thinking about her safety at all, but to keep your older sons happy.

Keep the open line of communication and validatin open with your daughter. If anything untoward happens, she'll need that trust towards you to open up, and feel safe to tell you things .

[lucylou]

Thank you guys for your replies they were very helpful. Yes , There is a lot of dysfunction in this family  :'(. It felt good to have that validated as it makes me realize that I am dealing with quite a difficult family and that I need to give myself a hug and say "you aint doing too bad in the circumstances"  

Too update you all, I did text the ex last night because it was his weekend to have the children.  This is what I wrote to him:-

Hi I understand our Daughter is presently sharing a bedroom with "x" and "y". I feel because  of daughters sensitive age and gender this is not an appropriate sleeping arrangement and ask that steps be taken to improve the situation. I understand our sons  do not have anywhere to sleep at all except the sofas. Is this a permanent arrangement or will they have their own room.

His response was this:-

Do u think you have the right 2 speak 2 our children, attack me, then bully me some more. Then tell I dont have the same rights as U. I will sort sleeping. I dont act on what im told. When i m ready i will respond 2 u directly. U have put people through hell and i havent stood in Judgement or follow up because of my kids. I will be in touch.

I responded with:-

due to your reaction to my text i feel its best to postpone this weekends visitation until you have had time to calm down. I feel it would be inappropriate  to expose the children to a volitile atmosphere tonight and over the weekend. I was not expecting such an angry response to be honest. i am sorry that you took it the wrong way. i was merely making a suggestion with regards to our daughters privacy given she is becoming a young women.

He Replied :-

I am not angry in the slightest  i havent been angry in years. I would check your text though ur tone is not friendly. I am half way over but will turn round and go home. I trust you are not misrepresenting me 2 my children as i am not angry in any shape, but deeply concerned u are making it out to be the case. 


I would be interested in your opinions to his responses. I was amused by the line I havent been angry in years.

I realize  i could have softened my approach in the text,been amicable and friendly  but I thought no, not this time enough is enough. I knew there would be narcissistic rage to follow and I was ready to respond. Just to add he has been violating our custody arrangements etc for a long time usually turning up on any day that suits or booking his holiday and not asking if that is ok. Luckily I am always flexible and accommodating .Last year on our sons 16th he booked a holiday and i had planned a special day for our son. A few days before he texted to say he will be collecting them early this year as we  split the school holidays 50/50  and he was then edging into my time with them. I said no as I had plans for his sons birthday.I am so glad i didnt re arrange anything as he didnt do anything special for his sons 16th.On his sons 18th he did the same thing and keep him waiting all day then didnt show up at all.On another occasion last year he texted to say his wife was going to take our daughter to the hairdresser to get her beautiful long blonde hair cut. I said thank you but I will take care of it myself. His wife took her anyway and had a lot of her hair cut off and had layers put into it. I didnt give her the satisfaction of a reaction as I believe that is what she wanted, even though I was spitting feathers. I try to avoid conflict as I often feel guilty when I assert myself. I only really do it when absolutely necessary. I realize that this tactic is probably not the best with NPDs and BPDs and will work on that. I really do need the boards valuable experience and guidance. Because of  my own issues it is not easy to know how to respond .

My Daughter and I have a good relationship. She is a very quiet girl and is passive though mostly with other people but worryingly with her Dad and his wife.This concerns me as I worry she is at risk of meeting an abusive partner in the future. We have talked about these things but I dont find it easy. I wonder if that is the right thing to do? She finds it difficult to make choices and express her opinions. I am working on this with her.  I am reading "how to talk so kids will listen" at the moment which is useful and I have read other books Haim Ginott etc, John Bradshaw to name a few.As you can imagine I am trying to battle my own issues as well as learn new healthy ways to respond.I have had some counselling and read lots of books about codependancy . I am a rescuer but not at the severe end.I have awareness now of my own reactions/triggers  etc I guess i wont always get it right with the kids but at least it is a starting point. The children have a hard time listening to the rows and arguements over at their dads house. There are frequent blow ups and drama especially when my ex has a go at her son.Our children do not really like her son as he is arrogant they say.Thankfully they are able to spot some of the unhealthy modelling that goes on in the family and realize it is extreme and unreasonable  . They get on well with their dad but I think they are well aware of his shortcomings too and have been scared of him at times.He likes to call them names like pratt,and a few more explicit ones.He used to enjoy play fighting and pinning my oldest son down until he cried. He likes to disguise this kind of behaviour as "only being a joke" I only learned that recently and it made me feel very sad as I wish I had known about it sooner. My ex is very charming and jovial outwardly.People would describe him as a nice guy, easy going but then my mother is the same. He brings over sweets to manipulate the children. When they are with him he dresses them to look the part. They are not allowed to bring any of the things he paid for over to our house even if they have no trainers here. I remember once he made his son step out of his trainers at the front door even though i explained he needed them for school. If he pays for something he lets them know about it and how much it has cost him or impacted his lifestyle.Recently I have been able to use the skills I have learned to get them to open up and we are then able to discuss his responses and how they felt about them. It is not easy to see the flip side of his personality. Criticism will bring out his jackal and hyde side ofcourse. My oldest son does not go over their any more because his wife doesnt like him  and will hardly acknowledge his existance when he is there which made him feel uncomfortable. Futhermore he now has no place to sleep even if he wanted too.He recently asserted a boundary and told his Dad not to  call him on the mobile when he is in class  as it is not allowed. The next time he came over he attempted to guilt trip him by saying "I was so hurt that you told me not to call you during class ". Our other children dont really like his wife they tolerate her. She used to go out most of the time they were there, so maybe buying the smaller house was a way of making it more difficult for the custody to take place and also making them uncomfortable to even go there. I knew that if i sent them over  last night they would interrogate them trying to find out if i said anything.My ex is very paranoid about this and so is his wife. They are always ready to attack. She actually tried to call my mobile twice last night but I didnt pick up.

I really need guidance guys and I dont know where to start... .Where is the best place to start? I like the sound of stealth moves where can i learn abut this and can you recommend any good books about these issues? I know he is going to try to smear me as I got into some serious legal trouble a few years back that was to do with (ironically and probably not surprisingly)a BPD woman and a serious false allegation she made against someone I cared for, luckily she was found to be a liar, but I got busted for contacting her during the case ... .Its a long story and I am still trying to come to terms with that situation and its outcome.Maybe I should share it on the boards i dont know.  Some days I just get so tired of dealing with people  like this and can slip into feeling victimized. I feel i cant escape them as no matter how much I learn and how much I try to change the patterns of my behaviour and thinking they keep re surfacing in  different forms ... .Very frustrating.     

I just want my family not to have to go through this in the next generation. I think they will be ok as they are such smart savvy kids and are getting a good handle on what is going on but we are not out of the woods yet. 

Many thanks for your replies i am sorry my posts are really long, i have kept all this in for years

[livednlearned]

I am dealing with quite a difficult family and that I need to give myself a hug and say "you aint doing too bad in the circumstances"

lucylou, you are doing great under the circumstances. I mean that from the heart. You came from a dysfunctional home, and have not one but two disordered coparents. Bill Eddy (author of Splitting) says these are not just difficult people, they are the most difficult people. And you have multiple sets.

I think the email you wrote to your ex was perfect -- Eddy also talks about BIFF (brief, informative, friendly, firm). You did exactly that. The more you write, the bigger the target. You wrote only as much as you needed to, and his response was very narcissistic. Your counter response was assertive and appropriate.

And then he complied with you. You can tell in his response that his primary concern is not to see the kids, it's to make sure you aren't maligning him. That is the injury he can't tolerate.

About your daughter ... .this might be tangential to what you are asking, so my apologies if I'm not interpreting your question correctly. Here is the big epiphany that for me is at the heart of building emotional resilience in my child: Help him identify his feeling state. All else seems to flow from that. This is the beating heart of validation, I think. There is more, though -- the validating questions are critical so that our kids see themselves as problem solvers with legitimate feelings. You can turn this thing about the sleeping arrangements into something with your daughter. You are modeling it, so she will benefit just from that (my mom is standing up for me, I am worthy). You can take it even further by labeling and naming your feeling state, and asking her to do the same with hers. Her dad need not even be mentioned here, because this is ultimately about how D feels, and as her mother, how you feel. Just reading what you've written, it sounds to me like you already know this  

I really need guidance guys and I dont know where to start... .Where is the best place to start? I like the sound of stealth moves where can i learn abut this and can you recommend any good books about these issues?

Lessons 5 and 6 in the right side bar have good material. I'm especially grateful for the validation links, the validating questions one in particular. If you feel that parental alienation is going on, then Lesson 6 is good. It seems to go hand in hand with BPD parenting, and there are two of them so the force must be strong   There are several book recommendations, like Coparenting with a Toxic Ex and Divorce Poison. My biggest epiphany came reading Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy, which taught me to essentially model what my ex could not: flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior. Every interaction, not just the ones with N/BPDx, are opportunities to model how to deal with difficult (the most difficult) people.

I just want my family not to have to go through this in the next generation.  

I feel completely the same way! My therapist often says I am changing the family script, and I sure hope she's right.

Many thanks for your replies i am sorry my posts are really long, i have kept all this in for years

It's good to share and get it out there. Use as much space as you need.  

[lucylou]

I have to agree that this really isn't appropriate. The question is what is the solution? Do they maybe have a basement they could make a bedroom out of?

Hi Rarsweet, No they dont it is a tiny cottage (i looked it up on the real estate site  couldnt resist) This is a typical example of their "wants" taking president over "their needs" or rather "childrens needs". Its all about showing off. I was almost tempted to ask why they had "downsized" just because I knew it would really make them annoyed  .

I dont know what he is going to do now, it looks like he has shot himself in the foot!

   

[lucylou]

Thank you so much lived n learned for all your support and guidance. I will order that book ASAP and start reading the lessons section.

I guess we are both very lucky that we have a chance to re write the dysfunctional patterns in our families. I wish you luck in achieving your goal with your children  . I often think I was blessed not to have developed a PD myself. If I do succeed in turning all this negativity into a positive it will have meant finally putting an end to the last 3 generations and maybe more of PDs in our family. Woo hoo 

[livednlearned]

If I do succeed in turning all this negativity into a positive it will have meant finally putting an end to the last 3 generations and maybe more of PDs in our family. Woo hoo 

Woo hoo indeed!