I want to be free

[jhkbuzz]

You guys are awesome. Thank you so much... .

My word choices suck. I don't speak pop psych.

I am leaving in 7 days. I will be gone forever as I do NOT plan on coming back to this state.

Those are just facts.

Again, I find it odd that I came out like a lion; THESE are my boundaries, the end, and I get raked over the coals for being "righteous' and whatever else name I was called... .so I consider that, soften my approach, and try to reach out and now I am inappropriate.

At the end of the day, I am doing anything and everything to let that kid know I love her, and I am sorry.

It may night line up with what anyone else does, but I don't know what else to do.

You can do that ^ without insisting on a response or an interaction from her.

[going places]

You guys are awesome. Thank you so much... .

My word choices suck. I don't speak pop psych.

I am leaving in 7 days. I will be gone forever as I do NOT plan on coming back to this state.

Those are just facts.

Again, I find it odd that I came out like a lion; THESE are my boundaries, the end, and I get raked over the coals for being "righteous' and whatever else name I was called... .so I consider that, soften my approach, and try to reach out and now I am inappropriate.

At the end of the day, I am doing anything and everything to let that kid know I love her, and I am sorry.

It may night line up with what anyone else does, but I don't know what else to do.

You can do that ^ without demanding a response or an interaction from her.

Really? How?

[jhkbuzz]

You guys are awesome. Thank you so much... .

My word choices suck. I don't speak pop psych.

I am leaving in 7 days. I will be gone forever as I do NOT plan on coming back to this state.

Those are just facts.

Again, I find it odd that I came out like a lion; THESE are my boundaries, the end, and I get raked over the coals for being "righteous' and whatever else name I was called... .so I consider that, soften my approach, and try to reach out and now I am inappropriate.

At the end of the day, I am doing anything and everything to let that kid know I love her, and I am sorry.

It may night line up with what anyone else does, but I don't know what else to do.

You can do that ^ without insisting on a response or an interaction from her.

Really? How?

You can say what you need to say, lovingly and privately, in a letter - and then say a prayer and put it all in God's hands. Whether she is receptive to your outreach is out of your control. Insisting that she meet with you when she clearly isn't ready to speak to you is unloving and, quite frankly, somewhat selfish.

[Sunfl0wer]

Like 3 posts ago, I get scolded for having firm boundaries and I should reach out.

NOW I am scolded for "not respecting" the SAME boundary I was scolded for having?

FYI: I am just one individual person on this thread... .a real person.

You are interacting with individual people.  Not a collective mind of a group.

Please consider that you will get differing opinions and differing advice, as that is how the nature of such a forum works.

It is ultimately your job to utilize info that is different in a way that is right for you.

You sound frustrated or persecuted.  However, I think when you are trying hard to make sense of confusing emotions, this is the result of that.  

I hope what I am saying makes sense.

[going places]

You know what, you're right.

I am the monster.

Good thing i am moving 5 states away, alone... .no one will have to suffer being around me.

You guys are right, I am all the names you called me, and I deserve the 'guilt' of your guilt trips that were laid on me (thanks blimblam!) and you are extra super right... .

It's not anyones fault but my own.

I am 100% to blame in all of this. And the best thing for me to do is just go away.

Just disappear. Do everyone a favor and go, quietly.

Thanks so much for all your guidance when I asked for it. And thanks so much for all the helpful and encouraging words.

And genuinely, thank you Panda39. Thank you.

[jhkbuzz]

You know what, you're right.

I am the monster.

Good thing i am moving 5 states away, alone... .no one will have to suffer being around me.

You guys are right, I am all the names you called me, and I deserve the 'guilt' of your guilt trips that were laid on me (thanks blimblam!) and you are extra super right... .

It's not anyones fault but my own.

I am 100% to blame in all of this. And the best thing for me to do is just go away.

Just disappear. Do everyone a favor and go, quietly.

Thanks so much for all your guidance when I asked for it. And thanks so much for all the helpful and encouraging words.

And genuinely, thank you Panda39. Thank you.

Who called you a monster, goingplaces? I don't think anyone posting here has called you names.

There are no "guilt trips" here... ."100% to blame" is very black and white thinking. As in any r/s, there are two people involved and no single person bears the responsibility for it - both you and your daughter must work together to make the relationship healthy.

This is the truth: you are trying to control your daughter's responses and that's unhealthy. But it doesn't make you a monster, either. It's important that you recognize this controlling tendency in yourself if you really want to repair the r/s with your daughter.

And for the record, I understand the "controlling" impulse - because I struggle with it as well. So there's no passing judgement here. We all are imperfect and we all have our struggles. You do. I do. We all do.

Consider this: being controlling is the exact opposite of what it means to have faith.

[Blimblam]

believe it or not going places I do not see you as a monster at all, although you have made it difficult at times to empathize with you directly. Its just I empathized with your pain and where you had been placing it which is your daughter. You are facing it right now... .and I can see you writhing in pain, it is trully terrifying stuff for one to confront within themselves.  It is not all unicorns and rainbows.

When I would often confront my pain I would go into a kind of frantic almost manic state, it was not pretty so believe me I am not judging you and can relate through my own personal experiences. The only path to "freedom," is through that pain.

[Panda39]

Hey everyone,

I'm feeling a lot of anger here.  I know that everyone has their opinions and ideas and wants to help and I know going places wants to work on things with her daughter.  

Everyone is trying to do the right thing... .going places is and we are too.  If she feels attacked she will become defensive and not be able to hear anything anyone is saying to her.

Could everyone try and be a little more gentle so going places can stand down and hear what everyone is saying?

Thank you

Panda39

[Skip]

If there is one thing we are all here to do is learn better people skills. A lot of us have deficiencies in this area - its why we struggle.

The "pop-psych" garble and pop-psych in general is simply clinical psychology skills - people skills - simplified.  I'm not a huge pop-psych fan myself - I'll labor through the actual clinical material. We have quite a few members that will. But in the end... .

it's about people skills.

The first and most important people skill is being able to put ourselves in the other persons shoes and see things from their emotional construct.  Another key skill is being able to then craft what we want to communicate in a way it can be received and heard.  Often that means we must demonstrate first, that we are hearing them and mean no harm.

This is at the core of everyone's message to you in this thread.

I need for my sanity and health, to let these things go, and live.

I want for my sanity and health, to let these things go, and live.

How how how how how do I do this?

I don't want to wade thru mountains of pop-psych lingo and garble.

Just a straight forward, right between the eyes, approach.

There are some people skills issues in the way you are approaching your daughter- in general.

Do you want to explore these? Learn another way? 

[lbjnltx]

And the best thing for me to do is just go away.

You ultimately get to choose your own path and how you travel it.

As one Mom to another of a troubled child these are the things that led my daughter towards recovery, healed my pain, support her in sustaining her recovery, and make our relationship healthy:

Own my mistakes personally and verbalize them to her sincerely

Learn skills to communicate with her that are beneficial for both of us

Have healthy value based boundaries that are communicated gently, firmly and defended consistently ( not just with my daughter, with all people)

Treat her with respect

Have true faith in her abilities and good qualities

Love her above all circumstances, poor choices, and situations (these all change)

Model the behaviors I wish to see her modeling

These are all things I learned on the Parenting Board.  I had to do the work first before I could help my child... .and it IS WORK!  I trusted in God's promises to me and claimed them as my own... .and I had to do my part.  He never let me down.  When I sought real help I found this place, I found a therapist for my daughter that was willing to step out in faith and tell me at the age of 12 that my daughter had emerging BPD, when I and the therapist did all we could do I prayed for guidance away from a terrifying future for my daughter and when God answered I obeyed.  

All of these things are available to you too.  When you get settled in your new home, in a new place it will be a good time for new beginnings.  The Parents will help you with healing the immense pain you are in and carry with you to Florida, they will encourage you, practice skills with you, understand you, share their journeys, successes, failures, and celebrate your growth.  We will be here when you are ready.



lbj

[going places]

I feel like I am being chain-sawed in half, slowly, while I am awake, and alive.

I just want the chance, to look her in the eye, ask for her forgiveness, hold her and tell her I love, then go.

I know what I did wrong.

The last 4 years have been pure hell, and hell, I haven't let go of.

I am so hurt, instead of just sitting down, crying till my eyes were dry, then dusting myself off and moving on, it funneled into the anger tube.

I have ALWAYS struggled to separate hurt, from anger.

I was not allowed to cry as a child. I TOTALLY encouraged my kids TO cry that it was right, and healthy.

But I never did.

I don't think my son, or my youngest daughter (the one we are discussing) have ever, in their lives, seen me cry.

My oldest? Twice that I can recall. The one she remembers happened a year ago.

I thought I had to be strong, you know, stiff upper lip and such.

So for the last 4 years, no matter WHAT went wrong, it was the ex's fault.

YES a lot of it was, but I mishandled myself and my emotions on the rest.

I am an idiot. And it cost me my baby.

I never truly forgave. Oh i had moments when I thought I did... .but anytime I had to talk to the ex, all of the hurt and pain flooded me; and the process started all over.

I'd have moments, even MONTHS where my logical brain kicked in, and I thought I was 'over it' 'past it'... .then I would have to communicate with him and it all came crashing down.

She would do something 'like' him and all that anger all that hurt came out of my mouth onto her.

I would (not in the heat of the moment, but when we were getting along fine) beg her please, please don't ignore me; I can't handle it, it's what the ex did and it still sends me over the edge... .

That's not her fault, it's my fault for not controlling myself. For not moving forward. Not getting over this... .

She's no angel. She was lying to me and others, daily. She is doing things that are illegal. She is disrespectful of people and other people's property. These are her choices, not 'well she does this because... ."

I wrote her a letter, spelling out everything I did wrong, and asked for her forgiveness.

I asked her if I could please see her one more time, but if she chose not to see me, at least, please forgive me.

First things first.

I have to forgive my mother. For not loving me, for not protecting me as a child, for verbally and physically abusing me and allowing others to do the same.

I understand and recognize why I picked my ex; it was an extension of my mother that I wanted so badly to please, approve of me, see my worth; love me.

I have to forgive my ex for lying to me, cheating on me, abusing me, leaving me... .

I have to come to the place of real, honest, pure, whole forgiveness. Until I do that I am dammed to make the same mistakes, over and over.

I know what's wrong with me.

I just don't know how to fix it.

I want someone to walk along side me, hold my hand, wipe my tears, kick my a$$ when I need it, and tell me it's going to be ok.

Cause nothing looks ok right now, and it doesn't look like it's gonna be ok for a long long time if ever.

There is nothing in this world I love more, than my children.

This, is going to take my grey head to the grave.

[Skip]

So for the last 4 years, no matter WHAT went wrong, it was the ex's fault.

YES a lot of it was, but I mishandled myself and my emotions on the rest.

Going forward, starting from this point forward, what is best handling of your hurt and your daughter. What can you do to help her heal? What can you do to help you heal?

[going places]

I have, no idea.

Stuffing does not work.

Venting does not work

_________ does not work... .

I truly have no idea what to do with myself. I know everything I have done to this point is wrong.

So at least I know what NOT to do... .

But I have no idea what TO do... .

W/ my baby? I have no idea.

I am lost.

[Skip]

Why don't you reconsider this first.  Facebook is the biggest Etch A Sketch in the world. You can edit this or remove it.

Please forgive me.

I have tried to message you, email you, mailed a letter to your house; I have heard nothing from you.

I leave town, forever, in 7 days.

I would like one last time to see you, to hold you, to tell you to your face, how much I love you and how sorry I am for the things that went down last week, and to ask you for forgiveness.

I hate to make this all public on Facebook, but I have no other way to communicate with you.

Please, forgive me.

Please see me one last time before I leave for Florida.

I love you.

This is all I can do... .

She has the letter you sent.  

Does this need to be more (not a rhetorical question)?  

And if so, is this the place?  Are these the words that will start the healing process from her perspective?

[going places]

I do not know what words will start the healing process with her.

I do not know what is in her mind.

I do not know what is in her heart.

I do not know if she will receive anything.

I do know, that for 10 months, all she said to me (while she was refusing to speak to her father) was: "He never picked up the phone and tried to call, he never sent me a letter, or tried to meet me anywhere, nothing. All he did was text and email, and that's lame. Guess I wasn't that important".

I don't want her to think i am not trying.

I don't want her to think, I don't care.

I don't want her to think she's unimportant.

[Skip]

Is that a comparable context to here/now?

She backed out of moving to Florida with you. You got upset, took her car, phone, and got physical.  She blocked your access.  You sent her a letter/apology on Tuesday. Has she had time to receive the letter, cool down, think about it, and respond?

I told her in the letter, that if she did not respond to me in 7 days, I would post it on Facebook in the hopes that someone will pass it along to her.

If I remember, you said if she didn't respond you would post it on Facebook in 7 days.

In this context, do you think this a good idea to have that Facebook post standing right now?

[going places]

Yes, it is. It is her MO.

Her backing out of moving w/ me is not why I took the car.

I found a photo of her doing 100mph in the car. She was taking a photo while driving 100mph.

The car is in my name, as was the insurance.

She had 2 accidents in January of this year that jacked the rates (she didn't pay for her own ins) and she and I talked at GREAT lengths about her driving.

When I did get the car back, I could see that she has hit something red w/ her mirror and there are tire marks on the drives side passenger door... .like she cut someone off and their tire scrubbed the back door.

THAT is why she lost the car.

I took the phone, because again, it was in my name.

I did not want to get a 1,000.00 cell bill because she blew the data (which she has done before, and not paid) and I didn't want to get stuck paying for the phone when she lost it or broke it.

It got physical because I lost control. THAT one I own. THAT one was my fault. I should have NEVER confronted her when I was hurt/mad. THAT was 100% my fault. Period.

Her backing out of going to fla. w/ me wasn't the reason I got mad... .it was the way she did it, and the things I discovered she was doing when I opened her computer... .

Yes, in the letter I sent Sunday (she received monday, we live across town it takes 1 day to deliver from my address to hers) I told her if she didn't respond I was going to post the letter on facebook.

I did NOT post the letter on face book and I am NOT going to post the letter on facebook.

What I did post on facebook today was asking her to forgive me.

She has cut off all other avenues for communication.

It was my only option.

[Skip]

When she backed out of joining you on the move and in the following minutes you took the car and phone (even if there were other reasons for it) and you got physical, what do you think she was feeling?  What message did she get?

When you sent her a letter of apology and love, but included a statement that if she didn't respond in seven days you would post it on Facebook - what do you think she was feeling?  What message did she get?

If her friends all start buzzing her, one by one, telling her about the Facebook post which is appearing 1-2 days after she received the letter, - what do you think she will feel?  What message will she get?

You want to reach her, right?  You are asking what needs to be done. To reach her you have to tap into what this young girl is feeling right now and react to that girl - that mindset.

As a group, lets start the discussion here.

[going places]

When she backed out of joining you on the move and in the following minutes you took the car and phone (even if there were other reasons for it) and you got physical, what do you think she was feeling?  What message did she get?

she got the message that I found out about her activities, and she faced consequences for her actions.

NOW in her head, she thinks I am unfair. A mean mom.

When you sent her a letter of apology and love, but included a statement that if she didn't respond in seven days you would post it on Facebook in 7 days - what do you think she was feeling?  What message did she get?

What do I think she was feeling? Nothing. She threw the letter in the trash, unopened.

She got no message.

If her friends all start buzzing her, one by one, telling her about the Facebook post which is appearing 1-2 days after she received the letter, - what do you think she will feel?  What message will she get?

You want to reach her.  To do that you have to tap into what she is feeling right now.

Again, I did NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT post the letter I sent to her and I am NOT NOT NOT going to post the letter I sent to her.

The message I posted today (5 days after she got the letter) was ME asking her to forgive ME.

ME saying I was sorry, and wanted to see her before I left.

What I posted today was not the letter, was nothing like the letter, was not the same content as the letter, didn't have the same words as the letter it was not the letter.

What is she feeling right now?

Nothing.

She has everything she needs to exist. A phone, a car, a place to keep her junk and a place to crash whenever she feels like showing up.

She has NO rules, NO accountability, NO parenting... .nothing.

Just her and her friends and her bad choices.

I factor Z-E-R-O into her day.

ZERO

[going places]

Yes, it is. It is her MO.

Her backing out of moving w/ me is not why I took the car.

I found a photo of her doing 100mph in the car. She was taking a photo while driving 100mph.

The car is in my name, as was the insurance.

She had 2 accidents in January of this year that jacked the rates (she didn't pay for her own ins) and she and I talked at GREAT lengths about her driving.

When I did get the car back, I could see that she has hit something red w/ her mirror and there are tire marks on the drives side passenger door... .like she cut someone off and their tire scrubbed the back door.

THAT is why she lost the car.

I took the phone, because again, it was in my name.

I did not want to get a 1,000.00 cell bill because she blew the data (which she has done before, and not paid) and I didn't want to get stuck paying for the phone when she lost it or broke it.

It got physical because I lost control. THAT one I own. THAT one was my fault. I should have NEVER confronted her when I was hurt/mad. THAT was 100% my fault. Period.

Her backing out of going to fla. w/ me wasn't the reason I got mad... .it was the way she did it, and the things I discovered she was doing when I opened her computer... .

Yes, in the letter I sent Sunday (she received monday, we live across town it takes 1 day to deliver from my address to hers) I told her if she didn't respond I was going to post the letter on facebook.

I did NOT post the letter on face book and I am NOT going to post the letter on facebook.

What I did post on facebook today was asking her to forgive me.

She has cut off all other avenues for communication.

It was my only option.

[Sunfl0wer]

What is she feeling right now?

Nothing.

I would like to politely challenge this notion.

YOU may feel that she feels nothing. 

I do not imagine that SHE actually feels nothing. 

She is your daughter.  You are her mom.  She does love you.  She does desire to have a healthy bond with you.  She is human, that is a given.

Can you try again?

Can you try to imagine how a child would feel to lose their mom?

[going places]

What is she feeling right now?

Nothing.

I would like to politely challenge this notion.

YOU may feel that she feels nothing.  

I do not imagine that SHE actually feels nothing.  

She is your daughter.  You are her mom.  She does love you.  She does desire to have a healthy bond with you.  She is human, that is a given.

Can you try again?

Can you try to imagine how a child would feel to lose their mom?

My answer to the question was "she feels nothing BECAUSE SHE DIDN"T OPEN THE LETTER AND READ IT". She threw the letter in the trash, unopened. So yeah, she 'feels nothing' because she read nothing.

How can I possibly tell you what she is thinking.

I HAD no idea what she was thinking when she was smoking pot.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she was driving 100mph and taking photos KNOWING if she crashed a Honda Fit at 100mph she could be killed.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she... .

Can I imagine what it's like for a child to lose a mom?

It must suck, enormously. Life altering stuff.

Can I imagine what it looks like when my daughter cuts one of her parents off?

yes I can because she cut her dad off for 10 months... .I know EXACTLY what that looks like.

I have SEEN her 'feel nothing'. For MONTHS she had nothing but contempt for her dad and his ways.

When she verbalized it I told her that she cannot let anger and hate rule her (well aint that the pot calling the kettle black) because I HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH HATE AND ANGER CONTROLLING ME... .

She would have a FIT if I mentioned his name, or asked if she had spoken to him.

So I didn't want her mad at me, so WE NEVER TALKED ABOUT HER DAD.

SO when I say, she feels nothing; maybe she feels anger. Maybe she feels contempt. Those I have seen.

You simply don't get it what it's like living with someone who is lead by the next "shiny" thing... .

ETA: When you quote, quote the whole thing. Cause when you just quote a word or sentence, it gets taken WAY out of context and looks like it means something totally different.

[Sunfl0wer]

How can I possibly tell you what she is thinking.

I HAD no idea what she was thinking when she was smoking pot.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she was driving 100mph and taking photos KNOWING if she crashed a Honda Fit at 100mph she could be killed.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she... .

So it sounds like instead of feeling nothing... .  You have no idea what she is thinking?

What I am asking, ... challenging of you... .is do you know what she is feeling?

I think this is good though.  Better to assume you do not know than to make a wrong assumption. Right?

I have SEEN her 'feel nothing'. For MONTHS

What YOU see and FEEL about her... .is not actually what she does feel.  You cannot see feelings can you?  You can only see behaviors right?

I think you were correct when you concluded that you have no idea what she thinking. (therefore, no idea what she is feeling.  Her feelings are hers alone)

SO when I say, she feels nothing; maybe she feels anger. Maybe she feels contempt. Those I have seen.

This is a helpful thought... .It is possible that she is feeling angry.

Consider this: Someone is at the funeral of their dad who died.  They are angry for dad abandoning them to death.  You may "SEE" anger.  They may shout and yell that dad left them when they needed him the most.  Is anger the "true" feeling that they are in fact experiencing?  Do people always present the behaviors that match the true feelings?

You simply don't get it what it's like living with someone who is lead by the next "shiny" thing... .

I have many life experiences that you are not aware of.  It may be more helpful that persons do not make assumptions about what anyone is feeling/experiencing.  Me included.  We all are only aware of our own reality... .and even that is up for a perceptive challenge.  The only thing that is real is what we choose to believe is real... .IMO.  Therefore reality is actually just a fleeting concept.

FYI:  I am here posting in a genuine way.  I hope that is heard in my message.  I hope that I am helpful.

Tough stuff here!

[going places]

How can I possibly tell you what she is thinking.

I HAD no idea what she was thinking when she was smoking pot.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she was driving 100mph and taking photos KNOWING if she crashed a Honda Fit at 100mph she could be killed.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she... .

So it sounds like instead of feeling nothing... .  You have no idea what she is thinking?

What I am asking, ... challenging of you... .is do you know what she is feeling?

I think this is good though.  Better to assume you do not know than to make a wrong assumption. Right?

I have SEEN her 'feel nothing'. For MONTHS

What YOU see and FEEL about her... .is not actually what she does feel.  You cannot see feelings can you?  You can only see behaviors right?

I think you were correct when you concluded that you have no idea what she thinking. (therefore, no idea what she is feeling.  Her feelings are hers alone)

SO when I say, she feels nothing; maybe she feels anger. Maybe she feels contempt. Those I have seen.

This is a helpful thought... .It is possible that she is feeling angry.

Consider this: Someone is at the funeral of their dad who died.  They are angry for dad abandoning them to death.  You may "SEE" anger.  They may shout and yell that dad left them when they needed him the most.  Is anger the "true" feeling that they are in fact experiencing?  Do people always present the behaviors that match the true feelings?

You simply don't get it what it's like living with someone who is lead by the next "shiny" thing... .

I have many life experiences that you are not aware of.  It may be more helpful that persons do not make assumptions about what anyone is feeling/experiencing.  Me included.  We all are only aware of our own reality... .and even that is up for a perceptive challenge.  The only thing that is real is what we choose to believe is real... .IMO.  Therefore reality is actually just a fleeting concept.

FYI:  I am here posting in a genuine way.  I hope that is heard in my message.  I hope that I am helpful.

Tough stuff here!

You ask me what I think she is feeling.

I say nothing.

I am then chastized for saying that.

I say I have no idea what she's thinking / feeling but I know what I see

It's then turned into "well you may THINK you know what you see".

There is no right answer here.

I cannot win.

I do not like the word manipulation games.

[Sunfl0wer]

How can I possibly tell you what she is thinking.

I HAD no idea what she was thinking when she was smoking pot.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she was driving 100mph and taking photos KNOWING if she crashed a Honda Fit at 100mph she could be killed.

I HAD NO idea what she was thinking when she... .

So it sounds like instead of feeling nothing... . You have no idea what she is thinking?

What I am asking, ... challenging of you... .is do you know what she is feeling?

I think this is good though.  Better to assume you do not know than to make a wrong assumption. Right?

I have SEEN her 'feel nothing'. For MONTHS

What YOU see and FEEL about her... .is not actually what she does feel.  You cannot see feelings can you?  You can only see behaviors right?

I think you were correct when you concluded that you have no idea what she thinking. (therefore, no idea what she is feeling.  Her feelings are hers alone)

SO when I say, she feels nothing; maybe she feels anger. Maybe she feels contempt. Those I have seen.

This is a helpful thought... .It is possible that she is feeling angry.

Consider this: Someone is at the funeral of their dad who died.  They are angry for dad abandoning them to death.  You may "SEE" anger.  They may shout and yell that dad left them when they needed him the most.  Is anger the "true" feeling that they are in fact experiencing?  :)o people always present the behaviors that match the true feelings?

You simply don't get it what it's like living with someone who is lead by the next "shiny" thing... .

I have many life experiences that you are not aware of.  It may be more helpful that persons do not make assumptions about what anyone is feeling/experiencing.  Me included.  We all are only aware of our own reality... .and even that is up for a perceptive challenge.  The only thing that is real is what we choose to believe is real... .IMO.  Therefore reality is actually just a fleeting concept.

FYI:  I am here posting in a genuine way.  I hope that is heard in my message.  I hope that I am helpful.

Tough stuff here!

You ask me what I think she is feeling.

I say nothing.

I am then chastized for saying that.

I say I have no idea what she's thinking / feeling but I know what I see

It's then turned into "well you may THINK you know what you see".

There is no right answer here.

I cannot win.

I do not like the word manipulation games.

Going Places... .

I care.

I am not playing a game.

I am a real person  ... .doing my best to be supportive, not enabling, to challenge and share insight in a way that I hope will be productive.

We define our own realities.  Perception is a fluid thing.

I hope you can find a way to use what is helpful to you.

Going Places... .

What is it you need at this moment?

Edit: My goal is NOT to win.  It is to share.  To connect.  To understand.  To love.  I am sharing myself in this thread... .that is genuine for me.

[Rapt Reader]

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[DreamGirl]

Hi going places,

First, I commend you for trying to work through this and being open. You obviously love your daughter very much.  

This age is so hard -- a lot of these kids are driven by the next "shiny thing" because neurologically that part of their brain (self gratification) is what's operating best.

As a parent, we get to deal with the fact that they're not quite adults but they aren't really children anymore.  My 19yo son often accuses me of trying to control his life when I try and hold him accountable for things in his life (like registering for school). The fact that he feels controlled, doesn't mean I'm actually trying to control him.

I think that's what some of us are trying to convey to you when we ask how you think she feels.

We all understand why it is you feel justified in taking the car and the phone away. She was being irresponsible and you were upset. In a sense, she needs to learn that those are all privileges, not some obligation from a parent. (again still acting like a kid, wanting to be an adult) It might have been a reaction on your part, even it was justified on your part.

She's 20... .and the timing probably wasn't the best when you took away all those privileges away... .right on the heels of her choosing not to go with you to Florida and moving in with her dad. She's connecting all of the dots so that she's not accountable and you're the one acting out.  

So her 20 year old feelings are that she feels... .?

-Punished

-Threatened

-Manipulated

-Resentful

-Humiliated

-Betrayed

How you communicate with her has to be based on your ability to empathize with her in these moments. If she's feeling [punished, betrayed] how do you validate that feeling and be able to open the door to talking with her?

-DG

[going places]

Hi going places,

First, I commend you for trying to work through this and being open. You obviously love your daughter very much.  

This age is so hard -- a lot of these kids are driven by the next "shiny thing" because neurologically that part of their brain (self gratification) is what's operating best.

Curious, what age does the "hey look shiny" start and what age does it end?

I have a 25 year old, who has never gone thru this stage, and I have an almost 24 year old that never went thru this stage either. Their father is 46 years old, and is still VERY much in this stage... .

As a parent, we get to deal with the fact that they're not quite adults but they aren't really children anymore.  My 19yo son often accuses me of trying to control his life when I try and hold him accountable for things in his life (like registering for school). The fact that he feels controlled, doesn't mean I'm actually trying to control him.

Agree. Holding young adults accountable is what takes them from young adult, to adult.

I think that's what some of us are trying to convey to you when we ask how you think she feels.

We all understand why it is you feel justified in taking the car and the phone away. She was being irresponsible and you were upset. In a sense, she needs to learn that those are all privileges, not some obligation from a parent. (again still acting like a kid, wanting to be an adult) It might have been a reaction on your part, even it was justified on your part.

I had to protect myself from getting sued, or her getting my insurance cancelled, or her running up the cell bill so high I have to get a second job to pay it.

All of these things are in my name, so ultimately, I do not have to justify WHY I took them back, because they belong to me.

She is 21 1/2 years old. If she 'wants to be this adult' that is 'not controlled' etc? Then that is awesome.

She can do it on her own dime.

Maybe when she gets a speeding ticket for 100 in a 55 mph zone or crashes his car 3 times in one week (yes, she crashed MY jeep 3 x in 10 days) in her dad's car and HIS insurance hits the roof, then I will look less like a 'control freak' and more like a 'wow, she was right'.

She's 20... .and the timing probably wasn't the best when you took away all those privileges away... .right on the heels of her choosing not to go with you to Florida and moving in with her dad. She's connecting all of the dots so that she's not accountable and you're the one acting out.

She is 21 1/2.

I guess what I am struggling with is the fact that she is a 21 1/2 year old adult that is irresponsible with things given to her, disrespectful with the things given to her, destructive with the things given to her, and in general, ungrateful and entitiled... .why everyone keeps thinking that somehow *I* am to blame?

Because I was protecting ME. I was looking out for myself... .because she was being wreckless.

So her 21 1/2 year old feelings are that she feels... .

-Punished

-Threatened

-Manipulated

-Resentful

-Humiliated

-Betrayed

Resentful, yes. Punished, yes. Betrayed... .probably, but that's messed up, but it's a familiar thing: She was lying sneaking breaking the law, doing disgusting things behind my back BUT she will "project' all of that onto me and say *I* am the one lying etc... .she tries to play the turn it around game on me, and I don't let her. I don't back down and I call her out when she does it, and it makes her furious. That game works on everyone else she hangs out with; but not me.

How you communicate with her has to be based on your ability to empathize with her in these moments. If she's feeling [punished, betrayed] how do you validate that feeling and be able to open the door to talking with her?

-DG

I would love to sit down with my daughter and say:

Baby, I know you feel punished and betrayed because I took the car. I need for you to think back to January when you wrecked my Jeep 3 times in one week. How we talked about you being a better driver, how we talked about I was glad you were in the Jeep and not your car (she would have been killed / rear ended at 50mph).

Baby we talked about how much the insurance was going to go up, and how you needed to make better driving choices. When I found the photo you took of your speedometer at 100mph less than 2 weeks ago, and I find scrapes of paint on the car where you have hit things, and tire marks on the doors where you have cut someone off; I have to hold you accountable for your choices.  If while you are driving wrecklessly you injure someone, they will sue me, becasue the car is registered in my name, and I am the one who holds the insurance policy. If they sue me, they will take away the little bit of money I have saved, to start my own business. I can not be held accountable for your choices and I will not face the consequences for your choices.

That will never happen because her dad picked up where I left off: put her on his insurance, and gave her a car and put her on his cell plan.

She's lost nothing (tangible). She faces zero consequences to her actions.

She has found a new 'supply' to feed her 'self'.

Sometimes I struggle to empathize with her because she is so selfish, she uses people up, then tosses them aside / and then on the flip, hangs out with people who use her up, and toss her to the side.

She jabbers endlessly about herself and things that pertain to her... .

When I look at "her friends" social media... .there are little to no photos of them and her.

When you look at hers, it's full of them and her.

When I read thru her messages between her and "her friends"... .she blathers on and on and on, drama drama drama, and their replies are 'oh' and 'wow' and 'that sucks'... .nothing deep nothing meaningful.

I find that sad.

She has "friends" that use her to buy alcohol. She's 21 they are not.

She has "a friend" that only hangs w/ her when he has nothing else to do,and I suspect he uses her for a booty call too.

She has "friends" who party with her because she's buying... .

It's devestatng to see. She has so much worth, and she throws it down the toilet to be 'cool and popular' when the people she is choosing to be around only tolerate and use her.

It breaks my heart.

[going places]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

Is there a printable version of this article... .because this is one of the most amazing things I have read in a long, long time.

[Suzn]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

Is there a printable version of this article... .because this is one of the most amazing things I have read in a long, long time.

The pdf is here:

   https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/fuzzetti.pdf

   https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/fuzzetti-cp.pdf

You can also print out the article by right clicking on the page and choosing print.

This article was adapted from

The High Conflict Couple – A Dialectical Behavior Therapy Guide to Finding Peace, Intimacy, & Validation by Alan E. Fruzzetti, Ph.D

https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/high-conflict-couple

# Paperback: 177 pages

# Publisher: New Harbinger Publications

# Language: English

# ISBN-10: 157224450X

# ISBN-13: 978-1572244504

Book Description

High Conflict Couple is a concise, easy to understand guide for couples seeking to deepen their relationship and ease their conflicts. This is a recommended book to share with your BPD partner as it doesn't make direct mention of BPD - other than the fact that the authors are all leaders in the field.

It's only 177 pages and full of amazing advice. It was written for high conflict couples and families.