Feelings of Guilt (1)

[vortex of confusion]

I have been mulling this over in my mind a lot lately. . .

I think what propelled this is a comment somebody made about me being in a high conflict relationship. The truth is that my husband and I have never really had a high conflict relationship. Neither one of us like conflict. I would say that during the first 15 years, things were pretty peaceful. I would see flashes of anger here and there from time to time. He would be grumpy and disconnected. He would display a lot of the BPD symptoms but he didn't display them in big scary ways. It was small stuff like insisting that we do everything as a family, not wanting to be away from me and the kids for any length of time. It is rampant insecurities. He isn't comfortable in his own skin a lot of the time. It has never really been anything big or scary. Just of lots of little annoying things that added up.

The guilt comes in because I feel like I started the conflict. I feel like everything would have been okay if I could have kept on going down the path where I was the strong one that took care of things and protected him and found alternative ways of getting my needs met. I am a creative person. I find ways of getting what I want and need and I can be very patient while I am at it. I repeatedly surprise people with my ability to find information and find creative solutions to things.

I feel guilty because I feel like I painted my husband out to be an abuser. The words from that coach still run through my mind. "I see you as a woman that is being physically, emotionally, and sexually abused." I had an epiphany not too long ago. I am not currently being physically, emotionally, or sexually abused. When I was a kid, I was all of those things. I refused to admit it though. I was the golden child. I didn't suffer anything compared to the stuff that I saw done to my older siblings. I was the "good" kid and I would try my best to not create conflict or upset people. I was the perfect little people pleaser (with a very devious side that I would use from time to time).

The reason that this is relevant to my relationship with my husband is because I feel like I have given him the short end of the stick. I am hyper sensitive to yelling. Any kind of raised voice with any hint of an angry tone sets me on my tin ear. I was in the kitchen the other night and I heard him get loud with one of our daughters. I said something to him about the fact that he yelled at her. He says that he didn't yell and that he raised his voice because she wasn't listening to him. It upset her tremendously. After I talked to him about it and filled him in on the situation (she wasn't feeling well), he went and apologized to our daughter. I think that is pretty awesome.

I can't help but feel like the conflict is my fault because I stopped accepting things the way they were. I wanted help. I wanted things to be different. I feel like I pushed to hard.

I feel like I have done a pretty good job of setting boundaries. I sometimes fight the urge to just go back to the way things used to be because that pretty much guaranteed low or no conflict.

Does anybody have any thoughts about any of this?

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[turbo squash]

The guilt comes in because I feel like I started the conflict. I feel like everything would have been okay if I could have kept on going down the path where I was the strong one that took care of things and protected him and found alternative ways of getting my needs met. I am a creative person. I find ways of getting what I want and need and I can be very patient while I am at it. I repeatedly surprise people with my ability to find information and find creative solutions to things.

I can't help but feel like the conflict is my fault because I stopped accepting things the way they were. I wanted help. I wanted things to be different. I feel like I pushed to hard.

I can relate to a lot of the feelings you have here. I think what you are feeling is normal, but I don't think you are giving yourself enough slack here.

I watched a video the other day about infidelity in marriage. It talked about how protect a marriage against infidelity.

This video said that the biggest warning of impending infidelity is one spouse not meeting the other spouse's emotional/spiritual/physical needs. You mentioned here that you feel guilty because you felt like you started the conflict because if you had just kept on being strong and finding other ways to get your needs met, this never would have happened. My wife tried to do the same thing and she ended up starting an affair. I don't think most people intend to start affairs. I think that they are just the result of people not having their needs met by their spouse for too long and then they end up allowing their needs to be met by someone else. An emotional connection develops and boom, an affair begins. So, is increased conflict to get the marriage to a place where you can be happy too not better than going down that road?

If you weren't happy, why do you not have the right to speak up and ask for change?

Before we were separated, there were things that my wife wanted/needed from/of me that I didn't think were necessary for her happiness. Regardless of whether or not I think her her perceived needs/wants are legitimate, it does not matter because that is still her perception. Her perception is her reality. So, if there were things that you felt like weren't right and you wanted them to change, once you relay that to your husband, it is up to him to make that happen. So, you may be more sensitive than most to conflict/anger... .but your husband knows that and if he wants to have a life with you, he should be willing to act in a way that is mindful of that.

I don't think that the conflicts/disagreements are inherently bad. You mentioned that you feel like you are hyper sensitive to them which probably makes them more painful... .but when you sweep stuff under the rug for too long, you end where my wife and I are now. In short, I can understand why you feel guilty, but I don't think that you should feel bad for trying to increase the happiness of your life by resolving issues in your marriage.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

I relate so much to your story... .around 15 years of what I thought was good marriage... .and it was.

Then... .natural disaster... .bad stuff.  My PTSD starting going haywire... .her paranoia went bonkers.   Or... .did her paranoia go bonkers and then my ptsd went off the rails

Does it matter which went wrong first?  I don't think it does... .

Sigh... .

One thing I have been trying on lately to reduce the noise level in my house.  If I am talking to a kid... and they don't listen... .I am trying to get quieter... .and if they don't hear... that is there issue... .and they face consequences...

Somehow... people having to understand that raising voices... .absent a real emergency... .doesn't work... and is counterproductive.

To be clear... .house on fire... .baby playing with something sharp... .raised voices are appropriate... .

FF

[an0ught]

VoC,

what do you feel is bad about conflict?

[vortex of confusion]

This video said that the biggest warning of impending infidelity is one spouse not meeting the other spouse's emotional/spiritual/physical needs. You mentioned here that you feel guilty because you felt like you started the conflict because if you had just kept on being strong and finding other ways to get your needs met, this never would have happened. My wife tried to do the same thing and she ended up starting an affair. I don't think most people intend to start affairs. I think that they are just the result of people not having their needs met by their spouse for too long and then having them met by someone else. So, is increased conflict to get the marriage to a place where you can be happy too not better than going down that road?

I know exactly how affairs get started. Sometime in early 2013, I tried to reach out to my husband and tell him that I was struggling. I needed more help with the kids. I was tired. Heck, I had been pregnant and/or nursing for 11 years straight with no break. I worked from home and I was the one that was in charge of pretty much everything. He did what he wanted for the most part. What he wanted was to stay home and play computer games. Nothing inherently abusive about that.

I reached out to him as plainly and clearly as I could to ask for help. I wasn't sure what I needed at the time. Mainly, I needed a break. And, I needed a little bit of pampering. I wanted to feel like a friggin' woman. Anyway, long story short. I was goofing around online one day and saw a personal add and figured what the heck. The guy said he was in a lonely marriage and just wanted a friend. What could it possibly hurt? (I know, those of you reading this can see where I am going with this.) I talked to the guy for a couple of days and it was just small talk. No big deal. The minute it turned into racy talk, I told him, "Hey, I can't talk to you like this unless I tell my husband." I am sure that he thought I was crazy for insisting that I tell my husband and that I was pretty sure my husband wouldn't be too upset because he is such a great guy.

This is where things get confusing. . .I told my husband about it. I didn't think he would be upset. If you knew my husband, you would understand. However, I was hoping that he would see it as a big red flag that he needed to step up his game. Nope, not at all. He got more excited about me over the idea of me with another man than I had seen him in years. I rolled with it. I took advantage of the situation.

Long story short: I had a "friend" that I used to talk to regularly. It was very seldom that we saw each other. In a year and a half, I think we only saw each other a grand total of six times.

Oddly enough, the conflict that occurred in our marriage occurred because I was mad at my husband and tried to push him to be somebody that he isn't. He rarely if ever got mad about my friend. The only time he would get mad is if he would snoop in my e-mail or messages. And even then, his response would be completely unpredictable. I tried to be pretty honest and up front about what I was or wasn't doing. He, on the other hand, couldn't seem to understand that I wanted honesty but not too much detail. He wanted to give lots of details without all of the honesty. He wanted to see other people too. I couldn't understand how or why he was willing to put work into meeting others instead of putting the work in to improve our relationship or help me get some of my needs met.

I realize that I didn't make much sense at the time. My thinking was "If you want to talk to somebody like that, here I am. Talk to me. Be with me." I felt like I was jumping up and down and making a scene to get him to see me. I feel really guilty and really stupid for thinking that.

Another layer of guilt is that I miss my "friend". I can't and won't talk to him ever again for reasons that I don't want to share publicly. The reason that I miss him is that I want to feel certain things again. My husband and I have made a boat load of progress in the last 6 months. He is doing what he is supposed to be doing and then some. I am still plugging along trying to support him without being enmeshed or dependent on him.

I am trying to deal with all of the emotions and crap that I have stuffed for so long. I feel guilty because I am not making more progress. And, I am coming to a place where I realize that it is quite likely that my husband won't ever be able to meet certain needs of mine. It isn't because of lack of trying on his part. It is because he is clumsy and isn't comfortable in his own skin.

[turbo squash]

I am trying to deal with all of the emotions and crap that I have stuffed for so long. I feel guilty because I am not making more progress. And, I am coming to a place where I realize that it is quite likely that my husband won't ever be able to meet certain needs of mine. It isn't because of lack of trying on his part. It is because he is clumsy and isn't comfortable in his own skin.

So you have expressed to your husband the needs that your friend met that he didn't meet and he still hasn't been able to meet them?

[vortex of confusion]

what do you feel is bad about conflict?

Hmmm. . .I don't think conflict in and of itself is bad.

I don't like conflict because of the way conflict usually played out when I was a kid. Conflict meant lots of yelling and screaming and scary stuff when I was a kid. Conflict sometimes involved physical violence when I was a kid.

Watching a sibling get punched, kicked, hit by a parent.

Watching sibling try to run over parent with car.

Watching siblings chasing each other with tree saw.

Watching dad throw a glass bottle through window of car to stop mom from leaving.

Watching siblings get sent away to relatives for being problem child.

Watching dad get arrested time and time again when getting pulled over for minor traffic stops.

Watching dad do mean and vindictive things to mom.

Watching siblings do mean and vindictive things to each other and others.

Hearing horrible things said about any number of things.

Hearing all sorts of threats.

Things escalating quickly and unnecessarily.

When I was in college and was dating a guy that my dad didn't like, my dad told me that if I didn't break it off with this guy, he was going to spend the rest of his life making sure that I was miserable. I had no doubts that he would do it either.

So, when any kind of conflict arises, I tend to panic and go into self protection mode. I get quiet. I get compliant. I go into invisible mode where I want to become invisible and figure out how to appease everybody so I can make it all stop.

The day that the coach challenged me, I went into that mode because I just wanted to get off the phone. I didn't want to be challenged. I didn't want conflict. I just wanted to be heard.

[turbo squash]

So, when any kind of conflict arises, I tend to panic and go into self protection mode. I get quiet. I get compliant. I go into invisible mode where I want to become invisible and figure out how to appease everybody so I can make it all stop.

My wife had a very traumatic childhood as well. I realize now that she handled conflict the exact same way. If she tried to resolve an issue with me and I got upset, she would stop trying to resolve that issue at that moment. She would try again later, but I realize now that after a few tries, she would stop trying if I could not stay calm while she was talking about her issue.

I realize that my actions made her feel like she had to reach out to someone else for comfort. I would get defensive when she tried to talk to me because I felt like I was bending over backwards to make her happy... .but she still wasn't happy and that frustrated me.

I wish, more than anything, that she had simply written her issues down on a piece of paper, handed it to me, and walked out of the room. I wish she would have told me to not come out of the room for 20 minutes so that I could have a chance to get over my defensiveness that was aroused by her not being satisfied with my efforts and actually talk to her about the problem.

[vortex of confusion]

So you have expressed to your husband the needs that your friend met that he didn't meet and he still hasn't been able to meet them?

I have attempted to express those needs.

Here is the sticky part. . .especially when dealing with somebody like my husband. . .Him not being able to meet some of my needs, especially sexual ones, is not really a failing on his part. At least I don't think it is. I used to get caught up in the "he doesn't love me", "he doesn't care about me", and other negative stuff like that. That wasn't helpful at all. Expecting him to meet some of my needs would be like asking a baby to walk. It isn't possible because the skills are completely lacking. I feel guilty for wanting, expecting, needing something that he is completely unable to do. When I strip away all of the BS, he simply is not capable of some things.

[sweetheart]

VOC the paragraph below jumped out at me when I read your post. My take on your guilt is loosely based on a psychodynamic perspective. I am not suggesting that what I think is set in stone, it is just my interpretation on what you present. 

  I am not currently being physically, emotionally, or sexually abused. When I was a kid, I was all of those things. I refused to admit it though. I was the golden child. I didn't suffer anything compared to the stuff that I saw done to my older siblings. I was the "good" kid and I would try my best to not create conflict or upset people. I was the perfect little people pleaser (with a very devious side that I would use from time to time).

The child VOC that you describe here still exists inside you, being good and being quiet in the face of the conflict and upset that existed within your marriage when you first came to these boards will be your default position. This is what you know, to deviate from this will trigger the guilty feelings you describe.

Your FOO parental imprint has been set up inside you about how your are expected to behave, even as an adult. You were expected to be the 'golden child' this was your role and you acted accordingly. Transgressions in the child VOC would have set up guilty feelings within you, there could have been unknown repercussions. Maybe the same would happen to you that happened to your older siblings?

This early way of behaving will be hardwired in you. So when you did speak up and speak out about getting your needs met, as the adult VOC, about your past unhappiness with your husband, you were in a way, punished by the coach who reported you. This in turn created conflict and upset within your own family because of the subsequent referral to the CPS.

This transgression which broke with your internal FOO script created the pervasive sense of guilt that now resides in you for daring to be any thing other than 'the perfect little people pleaser.'

[vortex of confusion]

My wife had a very traumatic childhood as well. I realize now that she handled conflict the exact same way. If she tried to resolve an issue with me and I got upset, she would stop trying to resolve that issue at that moment. She would try again later, but I realize now that after a few tries, she would stop trying if I could not stay calm while she was talking about her issue.

When I read this, my first thought was, "Wow, that sounds like a boundary of sorts." You get upset so she stops trying if you can't stay calm while talking about her issue. How many times does one have to persist to have a calm conversation with a spouse. At least that is how I felt. If me having an issue with my spouse creates that much upset in my husband, then maybe I am crazy or maybe it isn't that important or maybe I just need to keep my mouth shut. Given the fact that listening to me is so difficult for him, then maybe, I just need to stop. So, I stop and the conflict is gone. Bam, I have peace once again.

I realize that my actions made her feel like she had to reach out to someone else for comfort. I would get defensive when she tried to talk to me because I felt like I was bending over backwards to make her happy... .but she still wasn't happy and that frustrated me.

It is so difficult to have a conversation with my husband about anything when he goes into defensive mode. I am not trying to attack him yet his defensive reaction tends to make me feel like I am being mean or attacking. Given my distaste for conflict, that defensiveness sent me to a place where I would find myself thing, "Crap, I need to tone it down. I am being just like them. He thinks I am attacking him and that is NOT what I am trying to do."

One of the things that I wish my husband could do is just listen. Let me have my feelings without trying to fix them. If I am sad, let me be sad. When he goes around asking what is wrong or tries to do this or that because I am expressing an emotion that makes him uncomfortable, it makes me feel like I have to be a circus monkey that can only be happy. Any other emotion that I have is likely to make him feel bad or upset and lead him to question me.

On the flip side, I am not comfortable with certain emotions that he expresses because they send me back to a place where things were ugly.

I wish, more than anything, that she had simply written her issues down on a piece of paper, handed it to me, and walked out of the room. I wish she would have told me to not come out of the room for 20 minutes so that I could have a chance to get over my defensiveness that was aroused by her not being satisfied with my efforts and actually talk to her about the problem.

It isn't that easy. I wish it was. If it was that easy, then I could have solved all of our problems a long time ago. I love to write. I have written blog posts, sent my husband e-mails, and tried a lot of other ways to communicate with him. He couldn't hear me. I would try to tell him to stop being so defensive and that led to him getting defensive about being defensive. It took my husband's sponsor telling him to stop being so defensive before he toned it way down.

The odd thing is that I have talked to lots of people and tried to explain myself to them and they understand me. Until I started reaching out to people on this forum and others in real life, I thought that my communication abilities sucked. It turns out that my communication abilities don't suck as bad as I thought they did. For some reason, it is like there is some kind of block between my husband and I. Part of it on my end is that I am having a hard time overcoming the feelings of rejection. Every time he would get mad at me and not stay calm when I was trying to have a serious conversation about stuff that was bugging me, I felt rejected. I felt like I wasn't important enough to him for him to sit and listen without getting upset.

Every time I would try to tell him exactly what I wanted and needed and he would ignore it or screw it up, I felt rejected. I know that telling somebody something like, "Love me like you mean it" is kind of vague and non-specific. I have tried giving specific instructions. I have tried telling him stuff. He would try but fail. Both of us would get frustrated because there was an impasse. There are stories that I have told for years about different stuff yet he seems to forget my stories. When he forgets my stories and does things that I have specifically told him annoy me, I don't feel important. I don't feel heard.

I feel really stupid, guilty, weird for saying/admitting: I want attention. I need attention. I want validation. I am NOT super woman.

[vortex of confusion]

VOC the paragraph below jumped out at me when I read your post. My take on your guilt is loosely based on a psychodynamic perspective. I am not suggesting that what I think is set in stone, it is just my interpretation on what you present. 

-----------

The child VOC that you describe here still exists inside you, being good and being quiet in the face of the conflict and upset that existed within your marriage when you first came to these boards will be your default position. This is what you know, to deviate from this will trigger the guilty feelings you describe.

Thank you sweetheart!   I have read your post several times. The first time I read it, it almost sent me into a crying jag.

Your FOO parental imprint has been set up inside you about how your are expected to behave, even as an adult. You were expected to be the 'golden child' this was your role and you acted accordingly. Transgressions in the child VOC would have set up guilty feelings within you, there could have been unknown repercussions. Maybe the same would happen to you that happened to your older siblings?

Transgressions were pretty much whatever other people told me they were. It was easier to accept their definition. Talking too much about a happy event could be seen as a transgression. When I was getting ready to marry my husband, I was soo excited. I was making all of the flowers and stuff myself. I made our cake topper myself too. I talked about it a lot. One day, I was taken aside and told to stop talking about it because it was bothering my sisters. (At the time, neither of them had ever been married.) When we bought our first house, I was excited and talked a lot about the process. Again, I was told to knock it off because it was bothering other people.

This early way of behaving will be hardwired in you. So when you did speak up and speak out about getting your needs met, as the adult VOC, about your past unhappiness with your husband, you were in a way, punished by the coach who reported you. This in turn created conflict and upset within your own family because of the subsequent referral to the CPS.

Yes, yes, yes! A thousand times yes. I absolutely feel like I was punished for trying to speak out. All I wanted was help making sense out of things. I didn't want to hurt my husband or my family. Sure my husband has issues but he isn't an abusive monster. I feel like I was punished for speaking out about not liking how I was treated by him (even if it isn't full on abuse) and I feel like I was being punished because I didn't accept the version of reality that she was trying to impose on me. And yes, I feel horribly guilty about all of it. I just want to go back to being quiet and compliant in my marriage because there are days when this all seems too friggin' hard.

[Daniell85]

I grew up in a similar situation as you. Mom made just as bad a second marriage as she did a first one, and went and hid in valium and sleeping. My step dad went pretty far in abuse with no one to stop him.

I also withdrew, did everything I was asked, never complained and tried to hide from notice. It never even occurred to me to complain back then.

So when people get angry, even if not at me, or I see that on media ( tv, news, youtube, so on) I have a huge panic attack.

Like your husband, my boyfriend is extremely defensive and becomes attacking and often cruel to me when I try to talk to him. Reading your posts in this thread, I realize he also cannot handle conflict and becomes very upset when he believes it is happening. It pretty much shuts down direct discussions about anything upsetting.

You and I, and likely many other people, we become silent in our needs. I feel terribly guilty, too. You find yourself depriving your own self of wants and needs. It becomes the unconscious way your life / my life gets lived.

I figured it was probably co dependence. My mom lives with me and mom is priority over myself. Just like she was when I was a kid. We are trying to rebalance our relationship. She has never been malign, was simply unable to cope due to anxiety and fear. She abandoned me to protect herself.

This trait I have now has become a part of how I treat my boyfriend. And he has made clear to me that what he wants takes priority over anything I need, want, hope for. I let him have it and it's been so destructive to both of us. I literally cannot get from him any of my needs met. He is too resentful of me for it and deliberately messes it up, ignores it, or on purpose does the exact opposite of what is being asked. Control issues I guess.

I don't have any solutions at this point. Since I just started therapy, I am kind of in a holding pattern. I feel a ton of guilt, like you.

I just want to support you even if I don't have advice.

[Notwendy]

VOC, reading your posts feels as if you are telling a version of my story. I think, hope, these insights into yourself- and myself, will lead to something good- at least reveal how our childhood scripts influence our behavior.

I do the invisible thing- just like you did, and for many years I carried on, taking care of the children while my H basically ignored me and got angry if I approached him emotionally. As to your guilt about wondering if you started something by not continuing as the strong one, or wondering about having met your "friend". I think I have an idea. I did not turn to anyone. I certainly know that vulnerable space- I think I was wide open for someone to come in and offer to fill some of that emotional need. I don't think I was any less needy, vulnerable, or human than you or anyone else. It just didn't happen. What did happen was that, for the first time in my life, I got depressed. One day, I just started crying, constantly, and it just didn't stop. Counseling gave me the chance to be heard.

The point I am trying to make is that VOC, you are human.  We are not superwomen, not any of us.  I don't see you as having done something to be guilty for- you did your best in difficult circumstances.  We need to feel we are heard. I'm trying to say that your statement " I feel like everything would have been okay if I could have kept on going down the path where I was the strong one that took care of things and protected him and found alternative ways of getting my needs met." - is not something that could have happened, as humans. I know I tried that and could not do it, because to do that would mean I was not being myself and you would not have been who you are.

Like some of the other posters here, expressing a need to my H results in him getting angry, which shuts me down. Of course, what I need isn't anger, but the opposite, some TLC, some acceptance. Like you, I am so hypersensitive to what appears to be anger, I over react to my H raising his voice or being strongly expressive when he is not angry. He has told me that several times.

Yet he is the same. Sometimes I say something and he doesn't hear me, so I will raise my voice slightly and he will get triggered thinking I am yelling at him. Sometimes it triggers a rage. It doesn't have to be about him. I got flustered in the car the other day when I could not get my phone to work and he snapped at me, thinking I was yelling at him. Ironically, any sense of frustration, sadness, or getting flustered with something in my voice can set him off.

Ironically, your childhood script is like his. He is the golden child, always the "good one" which he is most of the time, but he also does devious sneaky things. Clearly, no human is perfect, so when he is not, he goes to great lengths to hide it and if I find out about it, the response is to justify and deny it. The goal: look good-and not as if he needs anything from anyone- at any cost. So in the event of any transgressions, there is no apology or resolution possible. The blame is on me.  It is hard to explain. He is the provider, and I am grateful, that is an important thing for the benefit of our family. However, he has also been dishonest with me about money- spending large amounts on himself, hiding some from me, and when I find out, he points out that he is the provider, he does not do this to the point of hurting us financially, thank goodness. Yet, he is not aware of the trust aspect or teamwork involved in an intimate partnership. He could have had all he wanted anyway, and that too, if there was some way to discuss our mutual wishes and needs. Yet, he can not admit to having these needs so he sneaks them.

I was the black child, and so looking good was not really a concern. The bigger concern was being loved for who I was, imperfections and strong points. However, in my family, I was better off being invisible, and so that is my default script and the one I go to in my marriage. Our marriage works on the functional level and in very traditional roles." Dad goes to work, Mom cooks and takes care of the kids and the house". We are not in huge conflict, so long as I don't approach him on an emotional level. I have learned to get those needs met in my 12 step groups, counseling and a sponsor.  I do not want a relationship or male friendship outside my marriage. I see this as potentially destructive, not helpful.

Sometimes I think this is the best we can do together for now, both of us having been raised in families that "looked good' on the outside but were terrifying places for children to be raised in. Maybe he likes it this way because it is safe. I don't like the distance, but any attempts I have made to be more emotionally intimate have failed. He is aware of when I am in invisible mode- says he doesn't like it when I am- but the alternative isn't any more satisfying to me. When I try to get us to talk emotionally, it ends up with dysregulation. His idea of intimate talk is expressing when he is angry at something or circular talk. I don't know if this is his idea of intimacy or not, but I find it frustrating.

[waverider]

When two people are out of sync or moving at different paces there will be conflict.

Conflict is a way of attempting to redress this. It can be constructive, even if it ends up futile and not achieving anything, or it can be hostile.

You feel guilt at rocking the boat and creating conflict as a byproduct of trying to make progress and finding your level of contentment. It feels selfish. But without this  "change" nothing would have been achieved. It is frustrating that the pace of change is seemingly slow, but without your efforts there would be non.

Will it ever reach a state for your complete fulfillment? Who knows but you don't need to feel guilty for trying. The fact that your needs, now you know what could be possible, has changed, is part of that evolution.

Part of your initial predicament was not really knowing your needs, and what is possible. This lead to a life of treading water and not really going anywhere. Staying the same may be surviving, but change is essential to move towards thriving. There is no guilt in wanting to thrive.

I know I have had to adapt some cold and potentially callous view points at times in order to ensure I thrive. I will not waste my life. But by doing this it creates a more positive sense in me which in the bigger picture has benefited the RS. If you feel like you are wasting your life no one thrives.

[Notwendy]

WR, you make an excellent point about thriving vs surviving.

I too have looked back on conflict points as beginnings, not as a negative, but sometimes they have just been awful. Maybe there is a female/male component to this. I certainly know that domestic abuse goes both ways, but there is something about a larger man with a deeper voice raging and punching a hole in the wall that is more threatening to me than my petite mother raging. Now, my mother's anger was scary to me growing up, but by my teens, I was larger than her and I could also leave the home. I am faster than her, and stronger than her. I see here where the men are upset by their BPD wives emotional storms, and where there has been physical abuse, but their wives are still probably smaller than they are. I am a small size woman, but my mother is even smaller.

My H has never threatened to harm me physically, nor has he, but I know that he potentially could if he didn't have as much sense as he does- he is larger, stronger, and could easily do it if he wanted to. If I tried to leave he is faster and larger than I am.  I may consciously know he has never tried to harm me, but even animal instincts respond to a bigger, louder mammal. A growling bear is more frightening to me than a yapping poodle. So my incentive to endure the rages from conflict are much less with him.

In addition, there are children involved. I know that when I had incentive to push for the relationship, in the beginning of our relationship, wanted to seek out intimacy, loved him with a passion he didn't seem to appreciate or reciprocate... .was willing to push for closeness, this had a negative impact on the kids. Furthermore, and I know this is my ego speaking, his drive to "look good" in the face of my willingness to be the instigator and accept his blame made it appear to the kids that this was all my fault. He was the good guy, I was the problem. This was a difficult situation for me.  I began to buy into his point of view, and VOC's feeling that if only I was not starting trouble, everything would be OK. My H was able to appear to be so perfect, that I believed I was the one with the problem, so, I did what VOC wishes she did- remained the strong one, took care of everyone, and asked for nothing emotionally for my H. Then I got depressed.

However, avoiding conflict was not my primary motivator. It was the kids. They were showing signs of stress, behavioral issues at school. I found notes from them "mom and dad please stop fighting" and one that said " they should get a divorse" (spelled that way!) and it just broke my heart to see this. I think I would have tolerated more conflict if not for that.

[vortex of confusion]

As to your guilt about wondering if you started something by not continuing as the strong one, or wondering about having met your "friend". I think I have an idea. I did not turn to anyone. I certainly know that vulnerable space- I think I was wide open for someone to come in and offer to fill some of that emotional need. I don't think I was any less needy, vulnerable, or human than you or anyone else. It just didn't happen. What did happen was that, for the first time in my life, I got depressed. One day, I just started crying, constantly, and it just didn't stop. Counseling gave me the chance to be heard.

I am not wired to sit back and cry about things. There are times when I should cry and don't. When I look back over my life, I can see how I don't really stay down for too long. If I want/need help, I reach out. During my life, I can always remember having at least ONE friend that I could talk to and be perfectly honest with about what was going on in my crazy house. Usually, it was somebody that had similar craziness in their homes.

Even as a kid, I found ways to get what I wanted/needed. If mom refused to help me, I would go to dad and vice versa. If mom and dad wouldn't help me, I'd go to my siblings. I know how to work with adversity and overcome it. I have been doing it my whole friggin' life. When my parents refused to give me information to apply for financial aid for college, I was mad initially but then I worked that much harder and ended up getting a full tuition scholarship.

When I was pregnant with my oldest daughter, we bought our first house. Two weeks later it got 3 feet of water in it from a flood. I was 8 months pregnant and we didn't really have a house. I didn't let that stop me. I plugged along and got things done. I didn't sit and cry about it. That isn't who I am. That isn't what I do.

I cried with my "friend". I don't cry with my husband.

The point I am trying to make is that VOC, you are human.  We are not superwomen, not any of us.

----------------

I know I tried that and could not do it, because to do that would mean I was not being myself and you would not have been who you are.

I don't want to be human.  I feel like being strong in the face of adversity is more me than buckling under the pressure. I know that I am not superwoman. I want to be her.

Ironically, your childhood script is like his. He is the golden child, always the "good one" which he is most of the time, but he also does devious sneaky things.

No, my husband was not the golden child. I don't know if his brother was the golden child. I sometimes think that there wasn't a golden child in my husband's family. My husband's childhood scripts are totally and completely different from mine.

He won't reach out to other people. When he was a kid, he confided some pretty personal stuff to a friend and that friend spread it around school. He doesn't even like telling stuff to close friends because he has been burned by that. He struggles with going to counseling because it reminds him too much of all of the times that he was pushed to go to confession as a kid.

His childhood scripts tell him to lay down and do nothing. His scripts tell him that he is powerless to do anything and that he needs to do what he is told and be quiet. My childhood scripts tell me "where there is a will, there is a way". I do feel guilty because I lost sight of who he is and who he has always been. He has never been very emotionally supportive in our relationship. He lacks that ability.

The blame is on me.  It is hard to explain. He is the provider, and I am grateful, that is an important thing for the benefit of our family. However, he has also been dishonest with me about money- spending large amounts on himself, hiding some from me, and when I find out, he points out that he is the provider, he does not do this to the point of hurting us financially, thank goodness.

My husband doesn't blame me for things. I don't remember a time when he blamed me for anything. He might blame others, but not me. I am literally his knight in white shining armor. No matter what I do, he puts me on a pedestal. Believe me, I have tried to deliberately irritate him and make him mad. I have tried to get him to see me as imperfect. He is the primary provider yet he has always let me manage the money. I give him one or two bills to pay each month and he does it. He has bought some stupid things over the years. He doesn't hide things from me when it comes to finances. We went to meet with a banker one time, the banker was shocked at how much we have done with so little. He just shrugged his shoulders and said, "I don't know. She takes care of that."

Yet, he is not aware of the trust aspect or teamwork involved in an intimate partnership. He could have had all he wanted anyway, and that too, if there was some way to discuss our mutual wishes and needs. Yet, he can not admit to having these needs so he sneaks them.

My husband falls on the opposite end of the spectrum. He doesn't understand the concept of teamwork. He lets me make all of the decisions and take care of everything. I get frustrated because I don't want to be in this role. If I am completely honest, I want somebody to take care of me just a little bit from time to time. I feel guilty because I would absolutely love to be taken care of just a tiny bit. It is my turn to be the petulant child. Oh wait, that is pretty much what I started doing that set everything into crazy mode.

Sometimes I think this is the best we can do together for now, both of us having been raised in families that "looked good' on the outside but were terrifying places for children to be raised in.

I was not raised in a family that looked good on the outside. Everybody knew that my family was/is crazy.

My husband's family looked good on the outside. I don't think his childhood was terrifying. I get the sense that his childhood was devoid of emotional connection. Both of us have a lot of good memories from childhood.

Yes, there was some scary stuff that I had to deal with as a kid. I saw some pretty messed up stuff. The stuff that my husband has done is a joke compared to the crap that my FOO has done. Why the heck was I bothered by any of it? I feel so friggin' stupid.

He is aware of when I am in invisible mode- says he doesn't like it when I am- but the alternative isn't any more satisfying to me. When I try to get us to talk emotionally, it ends up with dysregulation. His idea of intimate talk is expressing when he is angry at something or circular talk. I don't know if this is his idea of intimacy or not, but I find it frustrating.

My husband has no clue when I am in invisible mode. I don't feel like he has much clue about anything when it comes to me. I have no idea why I am complaining about anything. When I married him, I got what I wanted. . .to be invisible!

[Notwendy]

"I don't want to be human.  grin I feel like being strong in the face of adversity is more me than buckling under the pressure. I know that I am not superwoman. I want to be her. "


A childhood script doesn't necessarily lead to BPD, but I think dysfunctional families can lead to similar scripts- and similar behaviors- ie- the golden child, scapegoat, ect, and with different vulnerabilities and resilience.

Clearly, you are resilient, but being human, and fallible, crying, is not necessarily a sign of weakness. I certainly get not crying in front of people. Crying in front of my parents seems futile. They wouldn't get it. In front of my H triggers him to anger at me. However, I do cry.

To clarify, your life script is similar to my H's life script. Being the golden child meant he needed to be the strong one, the one that takes care of everything, the one that strives to be better than human. In the beginning of our marriage, he made a point to let me know he didn't need anyone or anything, and that being emotional- such as crying- was a sign of being weak and inferior. However, he is human, and so am I. Being the black child, I had come to accept the not so perfect, not so good side of myself, not that I didn't strive to be to attempt to get my parents' approval ( didn't work) or my H's ( he loved the attention but didn't return it).  So, I did not hide that side of myself from my H. He saw the emotional needy side of me, but my crying and other signs of "weakness" are aspects of my H that he did not accept in himself, so he projected that on to me. This is why that side of me triggers him. Being that I too am a strong person, I only show my strong side to him, and so, he doesn't get his need for nurturing met either. Honestly, for years, he had me convinced he didn't need it. However, his adherence to male traditional roles led to me doing everything in the home that he considered woman's work, even though in his mind he was "not asking me to do anything" - which was true, he didn't ask- he just refused to do anything he considered to be a woman's job and raged if I asked him to help. The home would not function unless I did it. This meant 24/7 child care, cooking, diapers, school, everything.

So ironically, he got to think he was strong and independent if he didn't acknowledge what I did or "ask" for anything, just refuse to do things that needed to be done.

VOC- I might be able to give you some insight to how it feels to be with the former "golden child" even if it isn't the same as your H. We are different people, but the roles bring some baggage with them.  It is very hard to be aware of one's flaws when being in the presence of the "perfect one". Holding someone to a pedestal is a script as well. My H's siblings have referred to him as the "god' in the family, and as much as they have him on a pedestal, they also resent him for his position in the family. Holding someone to a pedestal is a way to avoid rocking the boat as well, but it isn't genuine. I have made some snarky comments myself, like if my H is going on a walk I might say "have a nice walk... .(.and quietly .)on water"  Sometimes I just don't want to show my H that I have any "weakness" in his eyes, as he is likely to attack it, deny it, ridicule it. I don't like feeling as if I am "inferior" to him but that is how it feels to be connected to a "golden child".

I think it is good to want to do one's best, to try to improve, to be better, but when my H strives to be better than human, it rejects all that is human, including our best and weakest parts. I want  a human partner.  Your H may never be as capable or strong as you are, but is it possible that he sees you as so much more capable that he can't give you anything? - because this is how I felt with my H at one point.

[vortex of confusion]

You feel guilt at rocking the boat and creating conflict as a byproduct of trying to make progress and finding your level of contentment. It feels selfish. But without this  "change" nothing would have been achieved. It is frustrating that the pace of change is seemingly slow, but without your efforts there would be non.

Thanks for the reminder!

This is part of what I do. When I am not happy, I find ways to rock the boat. And, I usually feel super guilty for rocking the boat. I friggin' hate rocking the boat but I do it. When I was bullied in middle school, I took it for a while and then I stood up for myself with a vengeance. I love and hate that about myself.

I know that the end result will likely be better than I could have imagined. At least that has been my experiences in the past. It is sitting with the guilt and fear and getting past it that tends to trip me up.

Part of your initial predicament was not really knowing your needs, and what is possible. This lead to a life of treading water and not really going anywhere. Staying the same may be surviving, but change is essential to move towards thriving. There is no guilt in wanting to thrive.

You are spot on with this! When I answered that first ad, I was doing it because I was bored and lonely and frustrated. I had no clue what I needed. I knew that I wanted/needed something different but had no clue what that was. I have a much better idea of what I need now. I know that there are some needs that I have that my husband lacks the ability to meet. The frustrating thing is that those are, in my opinion, basic needs of a relationship. I am lacking sexual fulfillment. I feel so guilty for that. I am a female. I am not supposed to want that.

I know I have had to adapt some cold and potentially callous view points at times in order to ensure I thrive. I will not waste my life. But by doing this it creates a more positive sense in me which in the bigger picture has benefited the RS. If you feel like you are wasting your life no one thrives.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I too feel very callous and matter of fact at times. It feels very callous to say that I want to find another "friend" in the long run. I am coming to terms with the fact that no matter how much my husband tries in certain areas, it is quite likely that we might be incompatible. Everything else seems to be falling into place rather well.

[Notwendy]

"I too feel very callous and matter of fact at times. It feels very callous to say that I want to find another "friend" in the long run. I am coming to terms with the fact that no matter how much my husband tries in certain areas, it is quite likely that we might be incompatible. Everything else seems to be falling into place rather well."

I was never callous before. I was soft hearted, mushy, and emotional. However, I no longer feel comfortable being that way in front of my H. Ironically, he says he misses that. Yet being emotional in front of him can be very uncomfortable. It may just be something we need to push through.

But now, part of that callousness is who I am. I think it is how I have adapted to deal with things.

[vortex of confusion]

I think it is good to want to do one's best, to try to improve, to be better, but when my H strives to be better than human, it rejects all that is human, including our best and weakest parts. I want  a human partner.  Your H may never be as capable or strong as you are, but is it possible that he sees you as so much more capable that he can't give you anything? - because this is how I felt with my H at one point.

I know that he thinks I am more capable. He has told me that. He has told me that he feels like I am so strong that he has nothing to give me that I can't give myself. Anything he can do, I can do better. That isn't me being arrogant. That is how things tend to shake out around here. One time, he went up in the attic to fix something. He fell through the ceiling and into a closet. I made sure that he was okay and then went up in the attic and took care of it myself. My husband has told me that he feels like I need a man that is a lot stronger than he will ever be. He has described me as a force of nature.

I think it would suck to live with somebody like me. It would be a lot of fun but it would also be rather difficult. Even my kids have made comments about my strength. I tend to be the calm in everyone else's storm.

My "friend" was strong enough to withstand MY storm and that was nice.

[Notwendy]

and VOC, I am sympathetic to your position. When I see something that gives me insight to the other side of things, it makes me think. I hope my posts can do the same for others.

However, if you are truly unhappy in your r/s then I support your rights and feelings. I know that an open marriage is different than mine, and so if that is your agreement, then having a friend is your choice to make. I think we are all trying to do the best with what each of us is dealing with.

[vortex of confusion]

However, if you are truly unhappy in your r/s then I support your rights and feelings. I know that an open marriage is different than mine, and so if that is your agreement, then having a friend is your choice to make. I think we are all trying to do the best with what each of us is dealing with.

I wouldn't say that I am truly unhappy with the r/s. I am unhappy with being sexually frustrated. I am unhappy with the fact that I want a place to fall apart. I think I am still in a place of identifying MY needs without being so focused on my husband. This is a very uncomfortable process for me and it is raising a lot of questions and guilt and mixed emotions.

I don't know if an open relationship is the answer or not. Right now, that seems to be a better option than divorcing my husband and tearing the family apart. The kids love their dad and he is working so hard on having a better relationship with them. The progress is phenomenal. I can see and feel the progress everywhere I look.

My husband and I are both working super hard and communicating better. We still have a ways to go. I don't know what the end result will be. I am not worrying about that too much at the moment. I am worrying more about identifying my needs and not feeling guilty about trying to find ways to get those needs met.

[Notwendy]

LOL it isn't easy. Once I tried to hang something and made a hole in the wall. That was it. I will not do that again. But the thing is, this is how we learn. I used to hang plenty of things on the wall before I was married, and didn't mess it up, but having my H watch me mess up is really humiliating.

I know this came from his hyper critical father. He doesn't accept mistakes, not in himself, not in anyone else. I have made mistakes before and it is not a pleasant experience. I understand being "afraid" to do things that he can do better. I guess it is a good thing that he is so hung up on traditional roles that I had a domain that I didn't feel I was inferior to.

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting question-

If someone strives to be better than human, can any human meet their physical/emotional needs? I think sometimes it is possible to meet high needs through an affair, because the time together can be focused on passion, but a marriage involves being with someone through times when they are bound to not be at their best, when they will likely fail.

I say this because it was my H who decided I didn't meet his physical needs. I certainly tried, but I could not. It was devastating. I think if anything, feeling he was not happy with me physically was one of the most devastating aspects of my marriage. He has made much effort to change that, tells me he is happy with me now,  but the lingering doubts and effect on my self esteem has made it hard to really trust and believe that.

I would not like it if he had a "friend" but at some level, I have wondered if it would be a relief from feeling that I am not enough for him and that he can not get his needs met, but I don't believe anyone could actually meet his expectations.

[vortex of confusion]

If someone strives to be better than human, can any human meet their physical/emotional needs? I think sometimes it is possible to meet high needs through an affair, because the time together can be focused on passion, but a marriage involves being with someone through times when they are bound to not be at their best, when they will likely fail.

My needs are NOT high. I do not have high needs. For the longest time, I denied that I had any needs at all.

I say this because it was my H who decided I didn't meet his physical needs. I certainly tried, but I could not. It was devastating. I think if anything, feeling he was not happy with me physically was one of the most devastating aspects of my marriage. He has made much effort to change that, tells me he is happy with me now,  but the lingering doubts and effect on my self esteem has made it hard to really trust and believe that.

My husband has spent years NOT trying to meet my physical needs. On our wedding night, he watched PPV porn and was not able to perform. For the first 3 years of our marriage, he chose to look at porn rather than be with me.

The next bunch of years was him NOT looking at porn but also not being emotionally present. His equipment didn't work half the time. I would proposition him in subtle and no so subtle ways. His equipment always worked for BJ's. And his equipment works if I start talking about other guys. And, there is the time when we both had "friends" when he made it perfectly clear that I didn't trip his trigger any more. He would get excited about them but not me. I don't know what they could/would do that I wouldn't.

So, I know very well those feelings of rejection. I have felt sexually and physically rejected by my husband for most of our marriage. I denied that I had any needs at all in that area. Sex was about giving him what he wanted/needed to make sure that he didn't resort to porn or other things. I felt like nothing more than a dumpster for a whole lot of years. I was objectified. If my husband tried to please me in certain ways, I couldn't really say anything about what I wanted/needed because he would get frustrated. For example, if I said "Ouch, move a little to the left" he was likely to get frustrated. I learned to take what I could get and be happy with it.

I feel very, very, very guilty for getting to this point. I feel very, very, very guilty for even uttering the words "My husband doesn't meet my sexual needs." I feel very, very, very guilty for missing my friend.

I have spent years of trying to take care of my husband in every way possible. I am trying to figure out how to take care of myself within the confines of my situation. Neither my husband nor I consider what I did with my friend to be an affair. I had my husband's full permission. My husband knew exactly what I was doing and why I was doing it. I will not consider such an arrangement again unless my husband knows about it and is on board with it.

[Notwendy]

That is so sad that he watched porn on his wedding night.

VOC, you should not feel guilty at all. I would say that my "love" needs were not met either. It takes both for intimacy.

My story is somewhat different than yours, but the feelings of rejection are similar. I was very happy with our physical life and with the exception of things like being pregnant and nauseated, was available to him. Then, what seemed like out of the blue, I was painted black, didn't meet his needs, he was despondent. If you ask him, he felt very rejected by me, and I don't know why other than he can make this stuff up. I never with held sex as punishment, but he did. Then, he maintained that he didn't want to work that hard, ( meaning love and romance) sex should just be sex, and that I didn't give him enough BJ's ( whatever enough was - which was never enough it seemed) so I actually had him on a BJ schedule, so he'd leave me alone about that. For years, I too was the receptacle- and that was before the depression but I am sure it helped lead to that.

It is my H who has tried to make things better- well at least he wants to erase things that happened, but not face the actual baggage of those years. I think I struggle with it more than he does. But different than you, being a receptacle has really soured me from wanting an intimate relationship ( partly my fault for agreeing to it, but it was an attempt to stop the yelling when the kids were scared), I think I am traumatized from it. The idea of a "friend" makes me cringe.  I can't imagine even wanting to start something so intimate, complicated, and potentially difficult with anyone, but this doesn't negate that it could work for someone else if that was part of their relationship agreement.

Seems I still have some personal baggage to work through, even though I think I have done a lot.

[vortex of confusion]

If you ask him, he felt very rejected by me, and I don't know why other than he can make this stuff up. I never with held sex as punishment, but he did. Then, he maintained that he didn't want to work that hard, ( meaning love and romance) sex should just be sex, and that I didn't give him enough BJ's ( whatever enough was - which was never enough it seemed) so I actually had him on a BJ schedule, so he'd leave me alone about that. For years, I too was the receptacle- and that was before the depression but I am sure it helped lead to that.

Even when I had my friend, my husband did not express feeling rejected by me. He actually expressed the opposite most of the time. There was one time that he said I didn't make him feel special because I am nice to everyone. Other than that, I don't recall him saying that he feels rejected by me. I think it annoys him and frustrates him that even when I hate him, I still take darn good care of him. My husband has never ever complained about BJs. I don't know what that is like and I don't what it would be like to put my husband on a schedule or anything like that. In all honesty, I think my drive is higher than his even though he is a self identified sex addict. The difference is that I want it with an actual person, preferably my spouse. He is afraid of his sexuality so he tends to want sexual release but not necessarily in a way that requires intimacy. For him, it is more about sexual release. For me, it is more about the whole experience.

The idea of a "friend" makes me cringe.  I can't imagine even wanting to start something so intimate, complicated, and potentially difficult with anyone, but this doesn't negate that it could work for someone else if that was part of their relationship agreement.

As a woman, I feel like I am expected to have the same response as you. When I worked with the sponsor and the coach, I felt they were both being very judgmental because I wasn't repulsed and horrified. The sponsor implied that I MUST be a sex addict or love addict or something. I told her repeatedly that I didn't want a bunch of different guys. I wasn't going out banging any guy that would have me. I had a relationship, a friends with benefits type situation with ONE person. And most of the relationship involved chatting online rather than having sexual escapades. He was somebody that talked to me and listened to me and flirted with me and made me feel like a desirable woman.

I feel like people would be much happier or at least more understanding if I was repulsed by sex or hated my husband or sat around crying and not wanting anything to do with sex ever again. So, it feels like a bit of a double whammy. Not only am I trying to navigate this BS but I feel like I am trying to navigate it alone because I am not reacting like a normal woman should react. And that adds to the guilt and confusion. If I could just be a normal woman and claim my victim status, everything would be just fine. Because I refuse to claim my victim status and let this turn me into somebody that is repulsed by sex or something else, I must be in denial. I must be totally messed up in the head.

[Notwendy]

I think the range of "normal" varies. For one, I think it is great that you still have the drive and desire for a relationship. My H has insinuated that I am not "normal" because I don't have the high sex drive that he thinks "normal" women should have. I have no idea what he based his idea of "normal" on as I had plenty of desire for him before he decided to disconnect the sex from love.

Yes, the schedule. Totally weird, but it was before I understood what was going on. For some background, I was subjected to a lot of gaslighting as a kid, letting my mother define me according to her moods. Outside the home, I was a pretty good kid- made good grades, people liked me. At home though, you would have thought I was horrible and it made me sad that my mother believed these things about me. Naturally as a kid, I feared they were true. So when my H was angry about sex, I was tuned in to his complaints and took them seriously. His default complaint was " you never do X, we never have sex, even though it could have been two days prior. I kept the schedule for myself, a reminder that I wasn't going crazy, and as a reality check when accused of "never". It was so devastating to think my H could not remember all the love I had for him and the good physical life we had- and I was not aware that in disrefulation, feelings are "facts" in the moment. It was an attempt to hold on to my own reality at the time and not get into defending myself during the "you never" arguments although I had not known about JADE at the time. I would have dealt with this differently had I known better.

For the record, I think you are very normal. I think we also have to consider our age differences. I am post menopausal. While is is possible to continue to have a good sex life after these years, it takes a bit more to feel interested- and for me, that would be a long term emotional and physical connection, something I don't have the desire for outside of marriage. Also, in my situation, and open marriage is out of the question for many reasons. But this in no way denies that you are normal. We are both in the range of normal IMHO.  This is not to say that a relationship for you isn't emotional and physical- it is- but that for me, decreased hormones make that physical part less- less drive, less potential for attraction, at least that is how it seems in my case compared to when I was younger.

[waverider]

Something that I have discussed with my wife is the problem with living with someone who is "capable'. In her case it was her mum who was a perfectionist. The problem with BPD is that it is all or nothing, and if their all is not as good, or up to scratch, compared to someone else, they simply do nothing.

They simply can't handle "just doing their best" or near enough is good enough. They either have to be no1 or they wont compete.

Your high sex drive probably prevents his participation, and hence he switches to "spectator sport" mode. Following your lead equates to being to being second place. So he doesn't participate.

This sets a precedent and they start to expand that mindset to all areas and assume there is no point as they are just not good enough. From there it's into bluffing and blaming