Advice please BFF's mom

[Depression = 72% of members]

So for anyone who missed my last update post... .bff just turned 24, I am convinced she is BPD even though her psychiatrist just told her she absolutely is not.  (I respectfully disagree, and I'm guessing they spent most the session with her discussing me instead of her listing all 9 BPD symptoms she agreed she probably has; and I'm doubt he's seen even half of her behaviors when I've seen almost every single one.)  So as expected I got the boot phone call, but I was not expecting that the reason would be that her psychiatrist told her I am a horrible friend, who is insensitive and she needs to cut ties with me immediately.  So that was 1 week ago today, and since I have only called once, but I plan to drop by tomorrow with a gift as practicing compassion and kindness is part of how I take care of myself during her push phase.

Unfortunately, I am also pretty convinced that her mother has BPD.  Thankfully I have little interaction with her so other than having to listen to bff complain about her mother's antics, we almost never talk or see one another.  Tonight I started getting texts from her mother.  I have been reading Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder which focuses heavily on validation.  I know that bff would be furious if she felt I was talking to her mom behind her back, plotting against her, etc so I've just been responding trying to calm her mother down as best I could so it doesn't come back on me nor piss off bff further.  However, her mom isn't having that and basically the two are pushing one another to extremes.

To make a long story short bff's new boy and his family seem like nice people, but I don't always agree with everything they say or do.  The brothers tend to have some jokes I don't necessarily find funny, although I feel no need to point this out.  Also, one of their favorite pass times is tormenting an older neighborhood woman whom they say is a horrible b___.  The oldest brother is 27, my bff is 24, and the other brother is somewhere in the middle.  To me the kind of behavior they exhibit and sometimes what they find funny is out of line and really not the smartest thing to be doing or showing off (say on social media) for the world to see, in particularly with bff in a custody battle with her soon to be ex with the pending divorce.  I get that with her BPD she doesn't see how her actions could effect her custody, and the boys may not care as it's not their kid.  However, bff's mom cares very, very much... .

The texts started out with her saying she was worried about her, I responded and thought I was doing a good job, but she kept going.  She is upset and feels that these boys are disrespecting her, that her daughter is letting them, and she is furious.  I tried really hard to calm her down, validating where I could telling her their sense of humor may be a out of line at times but they are not malicious.  That the more she reacts the more they will keep at it.  I told her she should give her daughter space... .but then she said how worried she is about her granddaughter and daughter and nothing I said was helping.  She has just sent the following text:

I will involve DCF and the police if necessary.

HELP, please!  I have no idea what to say to her, so far I've said nothing as there is NOTHING in that I can validate and I am not supposed to validate the invalid.  Sure to the average person you would say something like "don't over react" or "don't do anything you'll regret" but that's exactly what will drive a BPD person over the edge!  So I'm left with no idea what I should be saying/doing to make this better.  She's talking about having an intervention... .the thing is this new boy's family, none of them uses drugs or alcohol.  While I know bff still does a bit of pot here and there as well as has one or two drinks, these guys really seem harmless as far as something to be really truly worried about.  I truly believe she will not get physically hurt with them, no overdoses/etc, but that doesn't mean that through some silliness they find funny (that might just be immature moronic behavior) that she or her daughter might get slightly injured, or later on pay the price by being separated if say her husband finds photos/conversations he doesn't like on social media.

Her mother can be a huge pain in the ass, I have no doubt, but when all is said and done her mother is there for her.  Watches her daughter last minute, and would do anything for her family.  If bff keeps pushing her like this there's no telling what she'll do, and likewise if mother keeps pushing her daughter like this there's no telling what she will do either.  The last time her mother upset her bff pushed her out of her life for 2 years, but now even if she pushes her mom out of her life I have no doubt her mother would call dcf/police to try to "save her granddaughter" and "daughter" if she thinks they're in danger.

Any advice would be great... .  I'm thinking of calling the therapist I'm going to see to talk about bff's BPD-like symptoms to see if she has a cancellation because I may be doing decent on my bff relationship even with her pushing and pulling, but I have no skills for dealing with both her and her mother! 

[DearBFF]

So for anyone who missed my last update post... .bff just turned 24, I am convinced she is BPD even though her psychiatrist just told her she absolutely is not.  (I respectfully disagree, and I'm guessing they spent most the session with her discussing me instead of her listing all 9 BPD symptoms she agreed she probably has; and I'm doubt he's seen even half of her behaviors when I've seen almost every single one.)  So as expected I got the boot phone call, but I was not expecting that the reason would be that her psychiatrist told her I am a horrible friend, who is insensitive and she needs to cut ties with me immediately.  So that was 1 week ago today, and since I have only called once, but I plan to drop by tomorrow with a gift as practicing compassion and kindness is part of how I take care of myself during her push phase.

Unfortunately, I am also pretty convinced that her mother has BPD.  Thankfully I have little interaction with her so other than having to listen to bff complain about her mother's antics, we almost never talk or see one another.  Tonight I started getting texts from her mother.  I have been reading Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder which focuses heavily on validation.  I know that bff would be furious if she felt I was talking to her mom behind her back, plotting against her, etc so I've just been responding trying to calm her mother down as best I could so it doesn't come back on me nor piss off bff further.  However, her mom isn't having that and basically the two are pushing one another to extremes.

To make a long story short bff's new boy and his family seem like nice people, but I don't always agree with everything they say or do.  The brothers tend to have some jokes I don't necessarily find funny, although I feel no need to point this out.  Also, one of their favorite pass times is tormenting an older neighborhood woman whom they say is a horrible b___.  The oldest brother is 27, my bff is 24, and the other brother is somewhere in the middle.  To me the kind of behavior they exhibit and sometimes what they find funny is out of line and really not the smartest thing to be doing or showing off (say on social media) for the world to see, in particularly with bff in a custody battle with her soon to be ex with the pending divorce.  I get that with her BPD she doesn't see how her actions could effect her custody, and the boys may not care as it's not their kid.  However, bff's mom cares very, very much... .

The texts started out with her saying she was worried about her, I responded and thought I was doing a good job, but she kept going.  She is upset and feels that these boys are disrespecting her, that her daughter is letting them, and she is furious.  I tried really hard to calm her down, validating where I could telling her their sense of humor may be a out of line at times but they are not malicious.  That the more she reacts the more they will keep at it.  I told her she should give her daughter space... .but then she said how worried she is about her granddaughter and daughter and nothing I said was helping.  She has just sent the following text:

I will involve DCF and the police if necessary.

HELP, please!  I have no idea what to say to her, so far I've said nothing as there is NOTHING in that I can validate and I am not supposed to validate the invalid.  Sure to the average person you would say something like "don't over react" or "don't do anything you'll regret" but that's exactly what will drive a BPD person over the edge!  So I'm left with no idea what I should be saying/doing to make this better.  She's talking about having an intervention... .the thing is this new boy's family, none of them uses drugs or alcohol.  While I know bff still does a bit of pot here and there as well as has one or two drinks, these guys really seem harmless as far as something to be really truly worried about.  I truly believe she will not get physically hurt with them, no overdoses/etc, but that doesn't mean that through some silliness they find funny (that might just be immature moronic behavior) that she or her daughter might get slightly injured, or later on pay the price by being separated if say her husband finds photos/conversations he doesn't like on social media.

Her mother can be a huge pain in the ass, I have no doubt, but when all is said and done her mother is there for her.  Watches her daughter last minute, and would do anything for her family.  If bff keeps pushing her like this there's no telling what she'll do, and likewise if mother keeps pushing her daughter like this there's no telling what she will do either.  The last time her mother upset her bff pushed her out of her life for 2 years, but now even if she pushes her mom out of her life I have no doubt her mother would call dcf/police to try to "save her granddaughter" and "daughter" if she thinks they're in danger.

Any advice would be great... .  I'm thinking of calling the therapist I'm going to see to talk about bff's BPD-like symptoms to see if she has a cancellation because I may be doing decent on my bff relationship even with her pushing and pulling, but I have no skills for dealing with both her and her mother! 

[DearBFF]

That text was sent last night at 11:01pm... .So it's been 16 hours and she has sent no more messages.  I hate that I did not respond, but at the same time... .What does one say to that which will not dysregulate a BPD mother and send her into a frenzy where you basically push her to do what she threatens?

I guess for now I'll leave well enough alone and see what comes of it.

I'm very worried that bff's mom will mention to her that she spoke to me next they talk (if ever at this rate) and then she will be infuriated without even knowing what I said, because she feels that is a betrayal.  However, I was truly trying to help by trying to clam her mom down.  *fingers crossed* that doesn't somehow backfire on me

Also, not sure if I should mention what her mom said to me to her... .first off that will probably make her mom never reach out to me again, and I like that she feels she can if she needs to.  There may be a time where that could be a good thing.  However, it would completely set off bff to tell her what her mom said which makes me think I should not.  There is no way that conversation could go well... .*sigh*

For now I guess I'll just wait until I talk to the therapist next week and see what she thinks.  I probably won't hear from either mother or daughter before then anyway, but who knows.

I dropped off my gift to her earlier today which makes me smile thinking about it.

- Horse notecards (she loves horses), with great quotes in one of them to add to her stress relief box (which I gave her a while back)

- A great quote about keeping people in your life when they accept you no matter how difficult you can be (... .case and point)

- A response I wrote to the great quote mentioned above

- 2 pieces of cheesecake (her favorite... .one NY style and one Caramel Crunch with sea salt)

- For her daughter picked out by my daughter: some Frozen sidewalk chalk and a yellow smiley face balloon

Yep, way to go psychiatrist... .that's what a horrible person, who is insensitive and needs to be cut out of someone's life would do; take care of their friend with an act of kindness, !  *sigh*

Not his fault I know he can't see... .but one of these days I hope he realizes the damage he's done.

[Kwamina]

Hi again DearBFF

I also read your other thread. Dealing with one person with BPD can be challenging enough, let alone two

A few days have passed since you posted this. Have you since heard from and/or spoken to your friend's mother again?

Take care

[DearBFF]

Kwamina, haven't heard from her and have no responded.  I didn't know what to say so I just said nothing.  I really did want to respond, but really what does one say to that?  Especially when trying to validate, I can't find anything in there to validate! 

I wish bff and I were in a good place so I could tell her what her mother said, but I don't think that's the best to do.  I just feel she will be mad at me if her mother mentions it to her.  I'm definitely going to ask the therapist for advice on that, but since time has gone by it may be best to leave it.  I don't want to rescue bff, but I do feel like I should be honest with her about it even if it's not my place.  When she shuts me out like this (as she has her mother) she misses out on so much, even something like me letting her know what her mom said.  She doesn't realize pushing people away only hurts her in the end.

Hoping her mother doesn't do anything drastic, but I really think she was just having a BPD flare up.  If bff tells her mom anything she doesn't like she immediately goes into an "everybody hates me spiral" complete with "Fine, I'll just go kill myself!" so I think her emotions just get away from her and she sometimes says things she shouldn't.  I couldn't handle her being my mother, I don't know how bff does it.  It's hard to talk to bff about her in general because she doesn't want to see the similarities between them, but to me they're plain as day.  It is interesting though because the same behaviors bff gets upset about her mom doing and she can't understand why, are the same things she does and then she gets mad if others don't understand her.  I just wish she could step back and see, but I know that's asking too much... .

[Kwamina]

Hi again DearBFF

Well sometimes it's just best to say nothing at all  Finding a validation target isn't always easy and when you really can't find anything to validate, this might be the best approach because you don't want to validate the invalid.

Being shut out by people you care about isn't easy. Your situation is unique in the sense that you're dealing with a BPD friend and her BPD mother. Since you are so close to her, even call her your BFF, your situation in many ways does resemble that of people posting here about their BPD family-members and Inlaws. At what point did you start to suspect her mother is BPD?

The two of them clearly have their struggles, how would you generally classify the relationship your BFF has with her mother? Are they close?

And how's your relationship with BFF's mom? How does she treat you?

Take care

[DearBFF]

Hiya, Kwamina!   

I agree that maybe nothing is best... .for all I know her mother woke up the next day mortified at what she texted (although somehow I doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if another text conversation happens soon).

It's true we are very close (when she's here, ), and she calls me her BFF even when I'm not there (because she has booted me as others have told me, she'll usually say something like "We're taking a break" although I had no say in the matter, ).

As soon as I found out about BPD, I kind of thought to myself wondering almost if her mother had it too (since it happens often that a parent has it as well).  While I don't know how many symptoms I would attribute to her mom since I don't know her that well I started to believe she most likely does have BPD when I read Understanding the Borderline Mother.  I cannot pinpoint which type she is specifically as I've seen her behavior correlate to multiple ones, probably 2/4 of the types included; witch, waif, hermit, queen.  I have no doubt that BFF would describe her mother as the witch type and from stories she's told me I can see why, but I typically do not experience this type when I am around her; she may also attribute some queen traits to her (again I don't see it, but I don't know her that well).  I do however see the waif, as she seems to need to be taken care of and calmed/soothed quite often, plus her self-esteem is very low.  When BFF was younger her mother jumped from man to man and her current husband of 10 years she actually started dating while he was still married, it's like she didn't feel she deserved a man of her own or something.  Now she has him and it's like he can't doing anything right and he reminds me of the woodcutter partner to the waif from the book.  He is always trying to please her, and I doubt they will ever leave.  One minute he asks if she needs help, then after she says no minutes later she is berating him for not predicting she'd need something and screaming at him to go get it.  He jumps up and rushes to get whatever it is, always putting her needs first.  He has mentioned avoiding her and staying quiet to avoid conflict.  He seems to have the need to take care of her.

I also see the hermit in her since she seems very tied to her home/family and is very protective of them.  It's like the outside world is too big and too dangerous, possibly due to things in her childhood I didn't know about, as well as her history with BFF's dad.  He lied to the entire family telling everyone he had cancer when he was actually on drugs.  He was in and out of their life, and is now in prison for running a meth lab (he should be out any day now).  When he was gone for good around 12 years old for BFF, her mother couldn't deal with the kids any longer and was absent often.  She would come home and share stories of her man troubles with her teenage daughter who was struggling to help support herself while also caring for her younger brother, basically mothering him.  Perhaps her mother feels betrayed and incapable making her wary of everything.  She has extreme anxiety and times, as well as depression and has sought counseling but BFF states that even with prescribed medications nothing seems to make her mother better.  Often her reactions are over the top very similar to BFF's, although BFF cannot see this and since she often HATES her mother it is not something I can discuss in depth with her.  For instance the text is mostly due to the fact that she was blocked from facebook, not allowed to speak to her daughter (when her daughter didn't want to talk to her), not liking her new friends due to how they've interacted with her, and some photos she saw of her granddaughter she didn't like (for instance one of her holding a semiautomatic weapon... .I get her frustration over this one even though I'm sure it wasn't loaded, it's probably not best to post on FB publicly when you are going through a custody battle).  If you look at all of that stuff though it has to do mostly with how her daughter lives her life, her 24 year old daughter!  Frankly, that's not really her business, yet she feel it necessary to butt in unwanted and criticize everything from how she parents to her friends.  The reason BFF actually blocked her on facebook is that her mother recently sent her a message listing all of the friends her daughter should unfriend because she thinks they are "inappropriate" which of course infuriated BFF (as I believe it would infuriate any 24 year old).

I've always had a strained relationship with her mom, while at first it was great (normal with BPD) as she was constantly thanking me for helping her daughter and supporting her through her divorce.  When BFF was depressed while staying with her mom and barely got out of bed for a week I went multiple days to just sit with her, and her mom would let me in the house and thank me for being there.  However, after a few months BFF would mention that her mother was jealous of me, due to BFF idealizing me in the presence of her mother.  Saying how I took care of her, and was there for her, making it seem like I was a better mother figure than her own mother.  So since then... .it's been kind of rocky, she's glad I am there, but upset when BFF talks me up which is understandable.  However, her reactions to things separate from me even are sometimes just off the wall.  When BFF and I were out one night with the girls we were all walking on the sidewalk us in front and the girls holding hands behind us (less than 10 feet on a practically empty sidewalk in a quiet town).  BFF had the idea that it would make a cute selfie photo and held up her phone directly in front of her with the camera showing her and myself, with our daughters framed in between just behind us.  It was an adorable photo and she immediately shared it to facebook commenting we were having a fun night out.  Within about 10 minutes her mother texted that she should be more careful about what she posts and that she should not have posted such a "disturbing" image.  The girls should be in front of us at all times, never out of our sight (even though were were talking/giggling with them the entire way and we could obviously see them through the camera on her phone while we walked).  She sent a flurry of texts about how irresponsible that was and "anything could happen" to the girls.  I give my daughter much more freedom than BFF does, but my daughter is 2 years older.  She often walks without holding my hand, especially on a safe sidewalk as long as she's not near the street and I have no problem with her wandering as long as I can see her.

When BFF moved into her new place (her mother is the landlord) we were painting her upstairs bedroom.  The girls were being a huge pain and getting into the paint so I suggested sending them outside, as we could see them from the bedroom window.  Mind you BFF lives in a quiet neighborhood, no through traffic, slow speed limit and everything.  Directly across the street (2 lane road with speed limit of 15mph or less although you rarely see a car pass) there is park, which is entirely enclosed by a fence.  I saw no issue with the girls playing there directly in our line of sight and we opened the window so we could yell to them if need be, but I felt there was very little risk with them playing in that environment by themselves since we were supervising from the window.  The girls were having a blast and we were joking with them from the window, "go down the slide together, have a race, who can do this faster... ." etc and we were getting much painting done in the process.  BFF's mom dropped by and started SCREAMING her head off at BFF, who snapped to attention and started SCREAMING at her daughter to get in the house.  BFF then started SCREAMING at my daughter to get in the house too.  I have a very bright little girl and I always teach her to ask questions to everyone about everything, as I feel this will help her grown into a bright young adult who can think for herself.  If a bully tries to push her around on the playground, my daughter says "NO!"  I like this about her and would never try to squelch it.  So when people SCREAM at my daughter I take issue, and so did my daughter.  She didn't move... .  I then got SCREAMED by BFF that my daughter was completely disrespectful and what if it was an emergency like there was a fire and she wouldn't come.  (If she was on fire, I'm sure she'd be smart enough to run away from it, ... .and if I was to SCREAM which is not my normal my daughter would know something was up, but I rarely raise my voice.  At home in our quiet house when I call my daughter, I get an immediate response of either her coming over to me or saying one minute before appearing.)  I told BFF calmly that I would go talk to her, but I did not feel she needed to come inside if she was still having fun.  I crossed the street and munchkin was very confused, she felt like she was in trouble when she had done nothing wrong, and she didn't appreciate being yelled at.  I completely agreed to her and explained I didn't like being yelled at either.  My daughter was so upset overing being yelled at that she cried, we almost never yell at her (so she like me finds this very upsetting and I don't blame her.)  I talked to her about BFF's mom being worried about them playing by themselves not realizing we were watching/talking to them from the window and that BFF's mom had decided her granddaughter needed to go inside.  I told her if she wanted keep playing with her friend she should go inside because she had to stay in now, plus it was starting to get dark anyways.  She decided she was done playing outside and we crossed back over the street, BFF's mom left after a few minutes after more YELLING at BFF and then it continued. 

BFF was very upset at my "disrespectful" daughter and said that her daughter was learning to be disrespectful from my daughter who was setting a bad example.  To me respect goes both ways and I feel that every time BFF yells at her daughter she is being disrespectful to her, her daughter being a willful 2 year old was trying to show her independence by saying things like "no" and BFF couldn't stand it.  I asked why she let her mother talk to her like that, and why did her mother change her mind when we both agreed the girls were fine playing outside under our watchful eye in a quiet neighborhood playground surrounded by a fence in daylight?  I told her that if it was my mother that would be unacceptable, that is my child and I mother her, input is not appreciated if it goes against a plan I have already laid out especially if it is delivered in a YELLING manner.  BFF said she can't talk to her mother like that, tell her to butt out, etc because she has tried.  I asked what happens when she tries and she says if ever anyone in the family expresses that they don't appreciate mother's input, or butting in, or trying to tell them what to do she immediately freaks out.  She goes into a cycle of saying what a horrible person she is, that she is worthless and why doesn't she just go kill herself since everyone would be so much better off without her since they don't need her anyway.  That's when I went... .hmm... .so much more than anxiety and depression (for her mother just as I had for BFF shortly before this happened).  Then when I read about BPD, that it can run in families, and is very hard to diagnose some people going decades even while seeing mental health professionals it clicked. 

It's entirely possible she doesn't have it but the combined behaviors before plus the history BFF has mentioned make it a strong possibility in my opinion.  I really and truly would love to reach out to BFF's stepdad (but I don't dare), her mom's husband as I really feel for him that he has to deal with this family that is always in turmoil/criss with multiple members dropping off the face of the Earth and not speaking to each other over and over again.  He is frustrated that his wife puts her kids first regardless of his feelings or desires, and I believe it is her guilt which causes her to do this.  She tries to FIX everything, almost like she blames herself for everything that has gone wrong.  She choose a man who ended up being a drug addict and caused her and her children a great deal of harm and left them all with so much baggage.  Being unable to parent while going through hard times she leaned on her teenage daughter, causing all sorts of damage for BFF who was an unruly teenager who called out for attention (even going so far as self harming saying to her mother "See, I need help, please take me to get help!) she never delivered.  Neglecting both her older and younger son she ended up forming different relationships with each.  It appears the older one moved out as soon as he could and distances himself from them whenever possible, and his plate is already full with his failed marriage, multiple businesses and chronic pain caused by being struck by lightning as a teenager (which his mom still probably harbors some guilt over since he was off with friends at the time so she could not protect him).  The younger however may be the "good child" and it's possible that his mom is trying to make up for the neglectful years by forgiving everything and everything, even letting him turn into a hermit/waif as well.  He just turned 18 as he was getting out of prison on drug charges (following in dad's footsteps), due to falling in with a bad crowd because his mother moved him around to follow a guy so he never got the chance to make healthy friendships.  Now it seems he has no friends, plays on his computer 24/7, and the only time I see him out of his room if I visit is if it's a special occasion (when he got out of jail he moved in with mom and stepdad), or he is hungry and he gets his food and returns to his room.  They are all in family counseling (stepdad, mom, youngest son) to try and repair things, seeing if they can help youngest son spread his wings, but I feel mom most likely wants to keep him dependent on her so she doesn't lose another child who pushes her away and no longer needs her.

Sorry for the lengthy response... .but does she sound BPD to you?  To me it's quite a bit beyond overbearing mother! 

[Kwamina]

Wow!  We can't diagnose people here, but based on what you've shared I can see why you think her mom might have BPD. She exhibits a lot of disturbing and very unpleasant behavior. I've read the book 'Understanding the Borderline Mother' several times and as the child of an uBPD mother, I can truly say that this is one of the most important books I've ever read. My own mother's 'base state' is that of a Waif/Hermit but the Queen also comes out at times and when that dreaded 'Turn' happens, I've also seen the Witch appear

My uBPD sister is similar to my mom in many ways but there are also differences. My sister's 'base state' is that of a Queen with the Witch just right around the corner. My sister also behaves as a Waif sometimes, mostly to get away with things or when she's presenting a mask to outsiders to portray herself as a victim.

It's totally unacceptable the way your friend's mother yelled at her and how subsequently your friend then started yelling at those little kids. The yelling by itself is abusive and I can understand why your daughter was so rattled by it. Has anything like this happened more often where one or both of them was being verbally abusive towards your daughter? Were there any more instances that BFF called your little girl disrespectful?

For instance the text is mostly due to the fact that she was blocked from facebook, not allowed to speak to her daughter (when her daughter didn't want to talk to her), not liking her new friends due to how they've interacted with her, and some photos she saw of her granddaughter she didn't like (for instance one of her holding a semiautomatic weapon... .I get her frustration over this one even though I'm sure it wasn't loaded, it's probably not best to post on FB publicly when you are going through a custody battle).

I definitely agree with both you and her mom here, very unwise of her to post that picture  And even if she didn't post it, I still find it rather questionable that she let her daughter hold that weapon in the first place.

You've done a lot of research into this subject and have read a lot about BPD. It isn't easy being the friend of someone with BPD, especially one who also has a BPD mother. I admire your commitment to your friend.

[DearBFF]

Thank you for your response, Kwamina!

If it is not BPD I'd be amazed just because I have never seen such behavior from a mother... .sure there is overbearing, there is nosy, there is neglectful, but she is like some kind of over the top combination.  I really do feel for BFF's stepfather as I cannot imagine living with and being married to her.  He is a kind man who is just trying to trudge on, even through his own struggles, and I admire him greatly.  I wish I could provide him with a possible answer so he too could benefit from learning about BPD, but I don't know if I can without it upsetting BFF and I try to put our relationship first (although I will always choose our daughters' above ours, and her daughter's safety above her own which I have told her before).

I haven't heard of this term "base state" before.  If I'm understanding it correctly, is that like their normal everyday place they start from before they go up and down?  Yikes!    It sounds like you probably had quite the bumpy ride with a BPD mom and sister combined, I'm sorry to hear that.  Has learning about BPD helped you feel more compassion so that you can be more accepting of them, of course not necessarily accepting of their extreme behaviors at times?

It feels like BFF's "base state" is probably waif, especially towards the beginning of a new relationship many conversations are around all the wrongs she has suffered in her life.  I always feel sorry for someone who asks how she's doing on a bad day as they just want the current up to date "how has your day been" but instead they get her life story, sometimes AGAIN (for the 3rd of 4th time).  So many say things like "poor thing" and immediately want to take care of and comfort her.  They do things like look out for her financially (excessive tips from customers when she bartended, $500 once), and some have even contacted her boss at a job to say they weren't being appreciative enough of all her hard work after she complained to them.  Thing is when you get too close with the taking care, then she flips and pushes away lashing out about how she doesn't need anyone because she can take care of herself.  It becomes most confusing, and that's about when people probably start wondering what's going on.  I suppose it relates to that victim triangle cycle thing, I forget the name.

I agree that that yelling was unacceptable, and luckily it has been a minimum as of late.  That night is actually one of the only true fights we've ever had, I ended up outside on the phone sobbing to hubby and I had to take my daughter with me because she ended up in tears.  BFF cannot stand it when my daughter cries, as when she yells at hers it's like a switch is flipped and she goes silent within minutes.  With my daughter, the more you yell, the more she cries since it is not something we use to parent we save it for emergencies where she is about to get hurt like walk into the street or something.  When BFF has her dark black glasses on while around me she makes comments almost to herself which are for lack of a better word rude.  For instance we try to use Love & Logic Parenting where you give the child choices and teach them to think independently so they feel like they are capable.  This is very important to me, but sometimes I do it wrong and it's usually when I am distracted.  Basically if you give a child a chance to say no, they will (especially when they're little).  Sometimes I forget to phrase something as a choice and I simply say "hey let's go over here now" and my daughter says "no I'm playing here."  This is my bad because that is not Love and Logic, that is more like BFF's "do what I say or else" approach which doesn't work for us.  Plus then I think about it I realize did I really need her to go here, no, then why did I just give her the opportunity to say no?   !  To me the no is not at all disrespectful as she is stating what she wants and I realize I set myself up to hear no in the way I asked.  If it is my wish for her to do something I give her a choice, she has two options, neither or no is not an option.  She has a few seconds to choose for herself, if she doesn't she's has allowed me to choose for her, if she does not there is a consequence (which honestly we almost never resort to now because she's a pretty good kid).  BFF does not understand this system and finds my daughter's no disrespectful, I find it my failure at not using the Love and Logic system correctly when I am distracted.  Her no often results in a conversation which I enjoy and I explain to her if there is a reason she needs to move and we settle it if that needs to happen in a different way.  BFF's way is "get over here now or else" which she has gotten her daughter used to in a way so she usually complies, however when she doesn't it goes one of two ways.  Either BFF flies off the handle to the extreme with yelling until she gives her a time out or she complies, but if BFF is feeling guilty about something or doesn't feel like working so hard she just ignores it or gives her daughter whatever she wants.  She says things like, "You have to get that girl to come to you!" and "How do you ever expect her to listen to you?"

The funny thing is we almost never have an issue with our daughter, she is fiercely independent and we LOVE that about her, but she listens to us very well and stays safe.  I think sometimes BFF is just upset that she doesn't stand at attention and obey every order, yet I feel like a child should be a child and as a human being so respected.  So I respect her feelings, try not to make her feel bad about herself, and work together to get us all on the same page.  BFF heard me raise my voice once, I'd say on a scale of 1-10 it was maybe a 7.  She said, "I like that, the assertiveness, that's how you get things done!"  I responded, "I used tone because the situation called for it.  She was about to pet your dog who is protective of you and when he is sitting next to you and someone else pets him he may bite.  I needed her to pull her hand away that instant so she didn't get hurt.  The thing is if I use say a volume 10 every time I ask her to do something she'll start tuning me out, that's what happened with me as a kid, as soon as dad hit 10 my ears shut off."  BFF just doesn't get it, and because she uses 10 all the time I end up having issues with her daughter when she visits.  For instance I walk into the bathroom and she's playing at the sink about to flood the place and I use maybe a 4-6 while asking her to stop with choices and explaining why we don't waste water.  This works perfectly on my daughter who loves to ask questions and understood she should stop doing the same (when she was about 2) because she didn't want to waste water because the fishes in the sea need it.  When I explained this to her daughter however, she just kept saying why while repeatedly doing it anyway.  I'd turn off the sink and turn to leave the bathroom after she'd say "ok, I won't anymore" and it was on again.  I have trouble because I refuse to go to 10 over something that is not life or death, or loss of limb, or would require a trip to the emergency room.  I can't imagine when she's 10 or 12 and she realizes she doesn't have to sit there getting yelled at and she just up and leaves, then what?

As I said I haven't had yelling much directed at me or munchkin recently, which I am grateful for and I've explained to BFF that I will walk away after a warning from me asking her to lower her voice.  She does raise her voice, but not to yelling directed at us however she does on occasion directed at her daughter.  About a month ago on the day BFF got her daughter back from soon-to-be-exhusband (which stresses BFF out), she was very annoyed over and over and her daughter for not complying.  This led to a yelling and screaming hail storm the likes I have not seen her use on her daughter before.  My daughter immediately took off upstairs which I was fine with me as I didn't blame her and BFF didn't notice because she was too busy yelling.  I believe I may have tried to intervene since her daughter was crying, but she probably told me to butt out and so I went up to check on my daughter.  I looked all over and finally found her in an upstairs closet, and I talked to her.  She said she was scared and didn't want to come out and I told her she didn't have to.  It told her BFF was upset, but not at her and that it was not her fault she was yelling and that mommy didn't think she should be yelling.  I told her she could stay in there as long as she wanted and that she was safe and didn't need to be scared.  I gave her a hug and went downstairs where it was quieter.  When I got to the bottom of the steps her daughter was sitting on the couch, in silence with tears still streaming down her face.  I approached her, but BFF snapped at me from behind so I didn't go over to comfort her.  I mouthed "Are you ok" to her daughter, who nodded (I was blocking BFF's view with my body) so I left things alone.  After a little bit BFF said it was time to go out, but my daughter still hadn't come down.  She sent her daughter up to get her, but she couldn't get her to come out.  I went up to talk to her and explained how I also didn't like yelling, and that her reaction was completely normal and that it was ok to hide; that if I wasn't a grown up I would have been hiding with her.  I told her growing up I got yelled at a lot, almost everyday and I hid too.  I hid in closets and under beds just to get away to and to feel safe, so I understood, but that now it was over and she could come out now and I was sorry BFF yelled.  By then BFF had come up behind me, she tried coaxing her out and apologized to her for losing her temper.  In the end BFF had to switch tactics and she ended up grabbing her and tickling until munchkin was giggling.  It occurred to me then how confusing that must be for a child, if that was your mother.  To imagine that she had just gone from yelling so much you were cowering in fear, to playing with you?  It's no wonder it does so much damage... .I told my husband about the event and we agreed next time that happened, I would just go outside with munchkin and we could play at the park across the street so we can limit the exposure.  Luckily since then it has not happened again.

I have seen a lot of very unwise decisions regarding her daughter, as well as trying to ensure the custody/divorce go in her favor or at least equal.  Yet, that seems to be the way with BPD, you just have to stand by and watch it happen because you CANNOT stop it.  Letting go of guilt was very hard, I had my hubby and a friend tell me over and over "if she loses that child, it is not your fault, that is her fault for making the choices she makes not yours."  It finally sunk it, but it is still hard to accept mostly because that child is her world (even if people don't see it), so losing her could spell disaster and if she ever loses her (more than she has already with the split custody) I am pretty sure I'll be getting a call that she has attempted suicide.  She says her daughter is the only reason she is still here, so without her what else does she have left?  That's how she sees it.

Thank you, Kwamina!   

[keldubs78]

I have no specific advice for you other than to say, and please don't take this the wrong way, but RUN.  Get out of this friendship.  You are way too involved (probably because they are sucking you in).  But, truly.  If it weren't my mother who I was dealing with with BPD, I would be out of her life so fast (and in fact did just decide to go No Contact with her despite her being my MOM).  You don't need to be so heavily invested and abused with just a friendship.  You are truly a wonderful friend to care so much but please, for your own sake, find a new best friend and get away from this family.  It's not worth it.  They do not change. 

[DearBFF]

keldubs78, I do not appreciate your words as they are not constructive or helpful in any way.

I'm guessing you have not read any of my previous posts... .  How overly involved can I be when I've seen and talked to her twice in one day to pickup and drop off her daughter in over 2 weeks?

I am sorry to hear that your mother struggles with BPD, that was probably very difficult growing up then and dealing with it now as well.  I cannot imagine as I do not life with BFF.  I'm glad you are getting a break as the last break I had (while not my choice) did me very much good.  I got perspective, learned a ton more, found a bunch of compassion and stopped getting angry as I was only hurting myself.

I currently do not feel abused, although I will admit her behavior in the past would be classified as such by just about anyone.  Now that I have boundaries I know what I can accept and what I cannot.  It is my choice to be here and I do not see myself making a different choice any time soon.  I enjoy our time together, and while I wish things could be different I cannot ask something of someone they cannot give me.  It'd be great for our relationship to not be severed because she fears closeness and actual deep conversation to heal past hurts and misunderstandings, but she is not capable of it at this time.  I'm not here to change her, that is not my job it's hers if she wishes to do so.  I can and have accepted her as she is, BPD included, not that it isn't difficult but I love her unconditionally.  Many times I have seen the hurt she causes herself by her actions and I know she does not do these things on purpose, and wishes she could do differently but until she is ready to do the work I know that won't change.  In just the last month I was with her when she was open to hearing me discuss BPD with her, I saw in her a desire to change and I heard her joy about working through the dbt workbook I purchased her.  She felt like she had a greater hold over her emotions and felt more open, which she said was a good thing.  I have no doubt that if she hadn't gone back to what is comfortable for her, new relationships that are shiny with no negative history with people who haven't seen her BPD traits, she may have possible continued moving forward with bettering herself.  However, I don't dwell on that... .I work on moving forward and healing, while connecting with others who understand the struggle and the love I have for my best friend.

I do not have many friends... .I can count them on one hand, and I will probably always feel closest to BFF because we have gone through so much in this short year of knowing each other.  She has often said that I am a great friend to her and she is a horrible friend to me, and she hopes one day she can be the kind of friend I deserve.  I will always hold out hope that may be true, however I will not hold my breathe because I know in the end that will only cause me pain.  In the meantime I have plenty to focus on with my daughter and husband.  She will be starting school soon and I love spending time with him playing games and we plan fun outings together as a family.  It saddens me that BFF doesn't have the skills to maintain a relationship long term without taking breaks, but I have accepted it as part of her behavior and I know it is not my fault that she continues to miss so much of my daughter's and my life.  That is up to her, for if she wants to be here she is always welcome.  However, I do my best not to let her behavior effect my life even though I do have sad days here and there when I miss her.  I am kind to myself during these times, I do not see it as weakness and if I want to reach out and say I love you and miss you I do because one of these days I might not get to tomorrow.  If I see something that reminds me of her (as I do with any friend) I get it for her, I put together little gifts and I leave them for her, and this kindness which I try to practice towards everyone brings me great joy.

I'm sorry that you are hurting and having to go through this, it must be very frustrating.  I hope that you can find some compassion towards your mother one of these days and that you can allow yourself the distance (even when you are in the room with her) to not take her behavior personally, it's not about you truly even when it feels like it is.  It's worth it for me at the moment to keep my relationship open with BFF, but I know that all of us can do that with our loved one with BPD (and there may be a time I cannot).  (I know this firsthand not with BPD but my relationship growing up with my parents was awful and being around my father made me suicidal so I have almost no contact with him now; and for me that's just how it has to be however I do not feel this way about BFF as while she can bring me tremendous hurt a times she also brings me tremendous joy.)  I know that BFF is still here so I will not say she will never change, because I don't know that.  I will also say your mom is still here, one day she might just surprise you, and I hope that she will; you may even surprise yourself.

Take care and I hope something really good happens to you this week that makes you smile. 

[keldubs78]

DearBFF,

You are right in that I have not read your previous posts and I am sorry that I upset you with my suggestion.  But I disagree that my comment couldn't be seen as constructive or helpful.  As you said, sometimes the only option is to walk away and that was my suggestion whether you want to take that advice or not.  And based on the amount of energy you have put into just this single thread, you are likely more invested in the situation than you think whether you are seeing her frequently or not. 

I admire your strength and your commitment to your friend.  It is truly admirable and I sincerely hope it is not negatively affecting your life and that something better comes of the situation. 

Best of luck to you and your friend and her family.

[keldubs78]

And by the way, your suggestion that you hope I find compassion for my mother someday is not valid.  You don't know how much compassion I have given her over the years that has been not reciprocated from her.   I realize this is a disorder but that does not excuse people hurting other people.  It is a very sad situation but my father stuck around and couldn't leave and it shortened his life and made the life he had miserable.  Sometimes compassion, while well intended, still doesn't change how the borderline's behavior affects their family.

[DearBFF]

To be honest you did not upset me, but I know I know that specific comment "RUN" upsets many people who are emotionally invested in a relationship who come to these and other boards for help.  RUN tends to be a response we get from outsiders who don't understand BPD and/or the strong connection a lot of us feel with our BPD loved ones.  Most of us want to connect, understand our situation better, learn how to heal from past hurts, move forward with skills that can improve our relationships, and help others where we can.

As for the amount of energy I've put into this thread, I am hosting this thread as per the site guidelines so I respond to posts made by others and update where necessary if the situation has changed.  If you are referring to length I type 100wpm so length for me is not really all that much energy as I just tend to type faster than most.

Am I invested in the situation... .the relationship with my best friend?  Absolutely!  The relationship between our daughters?  Of course!  My relationship with her daughter and hers with mine?  Sure!  Her mother?  Not so much... .

Overall, I care... .I don't believe caring makes me overly invested, it makes me human and at times I am imperfect, broken and ashamed if mistakes I have made.  Then I remind myself that none of us are perfect, we are all broken, and we all make mistakes and I can love accept them in myself and others.  I have hope, I always will and I'm glad of that because I'm pretty sure she doesn't have any in herself right now.  So while she can't believe in herself I'll do it for her, always... .

In regards to your mother and compassion... .I only meant that your response sounds angry/frustrated which is completely understandable in your situation, and personally I have found that finding more and more compassion for BFF has significantly reduced my anger.  The anger was doing nothing to her and I was only hurting myself.  In the same vain the compassion towards the other person is more for us, so we can let go of our anger not to change the other person.  Also, compassion for ourselves because it is only natural to want to help them because we love them.  I don't think BPDs know how to return what we give them, what much of the world gives them that is full of good because they are all drowning in so much bad they can barely see it.  They don't know how to get themselves out much less to shine a light of compassion on someone else.  It's unfortunate, but I believe it to be true... .

Again, I wish you luck and send positive thoughts you way for a good week.  Take care.

[keldubs78]

I understand what you are saying and my "RUN" response is probably because I am so overly frustrated with my own situation and see no other alternative. 

I guess in what you have written, my thoughts are that you obviously have a much fresher take on a much newer relationship than I have with my mom (not that a new relationship can't be strong and wonderful).  Friends are peers.  Mothers and daughters are not.  My mom was supposed to take on the role of a caretaker.  An unconditional love provider.  She has never given me those things and also reversed our roles and expected that from me.  While I wish I could see her with your fresh and optimistic outlook, and simply do as the books say and give her compassion for my own benefit and because I love her doesn't work for me.  I truly don't know if I even do love her because she has never truly loved me as a mother should.  When someone has hurt you so deeply, it doesn't really matter why they've hurt you or even that it isn't their fault because they suffer from a disorder that they cannot help.  You may be a better or more tolerant person than I but I feel I have gone down the path you are navigating now and it only led to more hurt and heartache, and THAT is why I responded to your thread in the way I did. 

I GREATLY admire you and wish you only the best and again, my response was only intended to dramatically convey how complicated a relationship with someone like this can be and for you to protect yourself and ask if it's really worth it.  Clearly, you feel it is worth it and I hope it can somehow work out for everyone's benefit. 

[Kwamina]

Hi DearBFF

I really do feel for BFF's stepfather as I cannot imagine living with and being married to her.  He is a kind man who is just trying to trudge on, even through his own struggles, and I admire him greatly.  I wish I could provide him with a possible answer so he too could benefit from learning about BPD, but I don't know if I can without it upsetting BFF and I try to put our relationship first (although I will always choose our daughters' above ours, and her daughter's safety above her own which I have told her before).

I understand your concerns for her stepdad. It isn't easy seeing someone suffer when you know things possibly could be different. He is an adult though and responsible for his own choices, including marrying her BPD mother. Perhaps he will change in time, but you ultimately aren't responsible for making him change or see the 'light'. That's why I think it's very wise that you are focusing on your core relationship with this family which is your BFF, while always being mindful of giving the number 1 priority to your daughter and her safety

I haven't heard of this term "base state" before.  If I'm understanding it correctly, is that like their normal everyday place they start from before they go up and down?  Yikes!    It sounds like you probably had quite the bumpy ride with a BPD mom and sister combined, I'm sorry to hear that.  Has learning about BPD helped you feel more compassion so that you can be more accepting of them, of course not necessarily accepting of their extreme behaviors at times?

That is indeed what I mean with base state, their 'normal'/preferred/starting state. It could be that this term comes from my own special parrot BPD book It's used for chemicals, atoms etc. and also seemed fitting in this context.

Learning about BPD has greatly helped me indeed. It's still a struggle as can be expected, but I was now finally able to make sense of my family-members strange behavior. I always knew there was more going on with them than 'just' depression, anxiety and several other things. These things are definitely a part of their behavior but there was more going on and when I found out about BPD I was finally able to put a name to what was going on with them. It's clear to me that my uBPD family-members have certain limitations and as hard as it can be to accept, in their case it's highly unlikely that they will ever change because they seem totally unable/unwilling to acknowledge that there might be something wrong with them.

As I often say on this board, there are people with BPD who through hard work have learned to better manage their difficult thoughts and emotions and as a result improved their behavior, sometimes drastically. However, for this to happen it is essential that they fully acknowledge their issues and fully commit to working on them. Unfortunately with my family-members this has never been the case. Regardless of whether they change or not, what I can do is change the way I interact with them by setting boundaries, using the specialized communication techniques, staying mindful etc. By changing my own behavior I can change the dynamics of my relationship with my uBPD family-members, whether they change or not.

Letting go of guilt was very hard, I had my hubby and a friend tell me over and over "if she loses that child, it is not your fault, that is her fault for making the choices she makes not yours."  It finally sunk it, but it is still hard to accept mostly because that child is her world (even if people don't see it), so losing her could spell disaster and if she ever loses her (more than she has already with the split custody) I am pretty sure I'll be getting a call that she has attempted suicide.  She says her daughter is the only reason she is still here, so without her what else does she have left?  That's how she sees it.

It's an unfortunate reality of BPD that certain people with this disorder are suicidal, threaten suicide and sometimes make actual suicide attempts. Knowing this can be quite a burden to carry with you. How does it make you feel when she says her daughter is the only reason she is still here? (By the way, my mother used these exact same words about me when she was talking with an aunt of mine when I was younger.)

Has your friend as far as you know ever explicitly expressed having thoughts of suicide? Has she ever made any suicide attempts or perhaps engaged in self-harming behaviors?

[DearBFF]

Thank you for your response, keldubs78 & Kwamina.

Kwamina, you are so right... .I should focus where my heart lies which is with my friend and as much as it is frustrating to see hurt and not jump in to try to help, it is truly not my place.  Perhaps if he ever approaches me to ask about it then I could think about sharing, but in the meantime it's up to him.

I will definitely be refocusing on my daughter as well and trying to put her first as much as possible.  Today the therapist I saw (I'll post about the visit in an update) made a really good point no one has ever made to me before.  People have asked if it is fair to my daughter to keep her in the relationship with BFF and I, and her daughter... .to me I just felt like I'm just trying to keep my daughter in contact with 2 people she loves so it seemed fine to me.  However, when I said to the therapist the thing I hate most about BFF pulling away is that my daughter misses her friend so that I'm trying to reach out for her so they can get together her response was "Is it such a bad thing if they don't?"  Basically she said it boils down to this... .BFF calls, wants to hang out fine, she calls and wants to get the girls together fine we are all friends and enjoy one another's company (for the most part).  However, she said I need to be sure my daughter is making more friends (healthy friends) with relationships she can grow with, and she suggested that her relationship with BFF's daughter might not be the best in the long run.  She said they can visit one another here and there as BFF comes in and out of our life, but not to push the issue because after all if I truly believe BFF has BPD, and her mother has BPD, the chances are with the way she is being raised my daughter's best friend now only 3 may also grow up to have BPD.  It kind of felt like a slap when she said that as nobody has ever pointed it out to me like that... .she has a point, it's like I'm setting munchkin up to have her own BPD best friend in 10+ years and I don't want that for her.   :'(   Luckily as I mentioned my daughter is joining some new groups (homeschool activity group was joined tonight, and we signed up for 2 field trips already and she made a new friend there).  She'll be starting school soon and hopefully on those field trips she'll meet classmates and make other friends.  So hopefully that will get her going in a direction to make good lasting friendships where she won't have to deal with the issues of having a BPD bestie in the future.  We already have connected with BFF and her daughter, we LOVE them immensely and we have decided to always leave the door open to them so to speak but I see now that letting my daughter attach too much with BFF's daughter could leave her in a position I don't want her in.  It hurts to think about though because I want to be there for that little girl, only 3, but I didn't think about her growing up and harming my child in the process with issues that are being formed in her now through no fault of her own.  It's like because she's an innocent child I want to embrace her, offer her an escape, etc. and the thing is I can, she will be welcome in our lives and our home but I have to be mindful that in the long run she should be more of an option for munchkin and not the only one.  *sigh*

Ooh... ."parrot BPD book" is that available on the boards or just for parrots?    I LOVE information, ... .

It sounds like your experience is similar to the one I had thinking there was something more than depression and anxiety, then finding BPD and it just fit.  It felt so good to have a possible answer, instead of just hearing the voices of those saying that BFF is just a horrible person, because I knew she wasn't.  It is difficult as you say but the more I learn the better things will get for me/us/our relationship even if she herself doesn't get better in the process, that's up to her.  I'm so glad I visited the therapist I now have a BPD experienced person whose brain I can pick so to speak,  , instead of just books (as helpful as they are a real live person who treats it is different).

I think hearing her say her daughter is the only reason she is hear is very hard to hear.  A bit good because even if she isn't with her daughter she is still her mother, but also bad because she feels that with the divorce she is "losing" her daughter and if ever it was to come down to her husband getting full custody for some reason I think she would perceive that as "losing" her daughter for good and then she wouldn't see a reason to stay.  I shudder to think what things her daughter absorbs... .I know kids pick up on everything even things you may not say to them directly.  I'm worried she'll have feelings of guilt and fear towards her mother and BFF doesn't see how she is causing this, as I know that is truly the last thing she would want to do she just doesn't yet have the skills to do differently.

Suicidal thoughts and self-harm yep... .self-harm when she was younger was cutting her wrists, she used to show them to her mom and say "See I need help" but her mom would respond with something like "You're fine, stop being overdramatic!" and to this day they refer to BFF as a drama queen.  Then I suppose when she got married she probably stopped cutting because around that time she modeled more and more so she couldn't have a lot of scaring that was obvious like that.  Also, towards the beginning she probably thought she was set that he would take care of her so she didn't need to anymore.  As far as more recently I didn't realize it at first when I read the BPD symptoms but then it occurred to me that she does still self-harm, but not everyone may consider it as such.  Also, I have not noticed the behavior for months which is great!  When she is very stressed out she picks at her cuticles, I do not mean like when you go to the nail salon and they trim them for you I mean brutally.  She will literally pick at her nail beds until they bleed!  I have actually heard her use the phrase, "I see the blood and I feel better."  She used to pick her fingers and toes, sometimes wearing 2 layers of socks so the blood didn't come through on a really bad day.  As I said though I have not noticed it recently, it's one of the things I check on her to see how she's doing when she seems to be hiding something because that never lies.

As for suicide attempts there have been at least 2 that I know of, one by pills and one time with a gun to her head.  The pills got her hospitalized in the psych ward, as well as the gun which got her Baker Acted.  She has made comments about suicide and I kind of check in to see how serious she is... .they range from "I should just put a gun to my head" all the way to "I hate BBQ chips, if you bring those in my house I'll kill myself!"  She worries me at times, but never seems serious but I truly believe if her daughter was taken from her that's the first thing she would do and I believe that that time she may succeed feeling all is lost at that point.

[Kwamina]

Hi again

Your therapists has made some very wise comments about considering how this might affect your daughter, also in the long run. Being friends with someone with BPD traits is quite challenging by itself and when there are also little kids involved, how all of this affects them is definitely something to be very mindful of.

Ooh... ."parrot BPD book" is that available on the boards or just for parrots?  

It is available on the boards... .but only to board parrots!

I LOVE information, ... .

Yeah I indeed kinda got that impression  I love information too!

As for suicide attempts there have been at least 2 that I know of, one by pills and one time with a gun to her head.  The pills got her hospitalized in the psych ward, as well as the gun which got her Baker Acted.  She has made comments about suicide and I kind of check in to see how serious she is... .they range from "I should just put a gun to my head" all the way to "I hate BBQ chips, if you bring those in my house I'll kill myself!"  She worries me at times, but never seems serious but I truly believe if her daughter was taken from her that's the first thing she would do and I believe that that time she may succeed feeling all is lost at that point.

This is quite concerning behavior of your friend. When did she make these suicide attempts? Was it before you met her or during your friendship?

You mentioned earlier about her posting a questionable pic of her daughter holding a firearm. Does your friend as far as you know currently have firearms in her house?

[DearBFF]

Agreed, Kwamina!  I had never thought of it the way she put it.  I'm glad munchkin is starting school soon, and 4H, and her homeschool group, she's going to be a very busy little girl!  , which I am actually very thankful for because we'd love to make some friends; all of us.

Bummer, board parrot only book... .   

Hehe... .My research addiction is one of my favorite things about me!  I'm weird, but I LOVE it! hehe  

All of the suicide attempts were before me.  It is very frustrating/upsetting when she brings it up, and the first time I took it very seriously and started crying about it when I later talked to her about it which she brushed off; now I realize that it dysregulated her as she is otherwise very matter of fact about it.  When she is upset or down on herself though it is very hard to know how serious she is being.  What I know though is that if I ever prod about it to see how serious she is she assures me that she never would because of her daughter.  After the last boyfriend though she was very upset/angry/ashamed about the boyfriend, that she brought him into their lives (not just hers but her daughter's) and she felt betrayed (partly by herself for covering for him and not seeing how destructive he was to her and her daughter).  That's when she made a gun comment... ."I should just put a gun in my mouth and end it all" and that one I took very seriously, but by the end of the night she was happy and giggly again which is why it is so hard to take any seriously.  Also, while she says things it is very hard to take seriously when I know she doesn't have access to a gun, or at least she didn't.  At her house there are no firearms, there were at her soon to be ex-husband's house and that is where her gun attempt was previously.  I realize now though that may be partly why her mother is so worried, seeing her granddaughter with guns knowing how her daughter has tried to kill herself before using a firearm.  That part hadn't really occurred to me... . I'm guessing "boyfriend" and his family have no idea about her suicide attempts or that one involved a gun.  She comes off so together, no one would ever guess.  One of the brothers also just posted a video to her facebook page of a little girl age 10 who became a competitive shooter at age 7.  Thing is they seem to do things like joke about guns, not teach her about them safely (in my opinion).  I'm also agreeing more and more with her mom about them being not good for her... .I just looked at her page and comments in the last post had her and "boyfriend" going back and forth joking about him joining ISIS.  *sigh*  She doesn't see how that isn't funny to MOST people, and that someone make take it seriously.    Love her but sometimes she just doesn't think.

I do know she has her pills but I believe she tried to overdoes on painkillers which I do not think she has any longer (some were injectable).  I guess once someone has attempted there really is no way to know when they are truly serious, or when you can be ok thinking they are just upset and don't mean it; partly because when she's upset she doesn't truly mean ANYTHING that comes out of her mouth.  I had been hopeful when she let me pick up her prescription from her doctor that I would now have his name/number but if the woman he told his patient to cut out of her life ever calls worried over a possible suicide I don't think he'd even talk to me; who knows.