Unravelling already (2)

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the support, everyone.  

I guess I am still feeling pretty anxious and down about all this.  She did send me a text message that simply said "I love you."  And the reality is, this is the conflict I have been dreading for months.  I guess I had been hoping that with enough time and work on both of our ends, things would have worked themselves into a more natural conclusion.  But, it's the same thing.  I can't keep letting the violence boundary be crossed, and she can't see where screaming, name calling, throwing things, and kicking doors is violent.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

She doesn't have to see that her behavior is not appropriate.

Your deciding not to tolerate it is your boundary.

Yes, you have been dreading it- but the response to having a boundary set is not likely to be immediate compliance. It can be awful, and I know what that is like. But all behavior continues when it has a payoff, and decreases when it does not. That applies to all living creatures, including humans, even humans with mental illness. Mental illness makes it harder, but it is the same principal.

Because my mom's behavior worked with me to get her what she wanted, I taught my H that this kind of behavior worked for him. He got all kinds of things because I was afraid of what I saw as rages, but they were actually temper tantrums. They can get worse before they get better, but unless we can stand firm, behavior is likely to continue.

Nobody can change another person. You can not change your wife, but you can change your behavior. I recall one time when we grown kids tried to "rescue" Dad. He would not say no to something we thought was not a reasonable request from mom. Since it involved our agreement, we said no. The resulting raging scene was as predicted. We realized by attempting to rescue Dad, we just became part of the problem. We were the perfect players on the family drama triangle, each of us playing the role of either persecutor, victim, or rescuer and we are all so enmeshed it seemed that anything we did involved consequences to the others.

Most dysfunctional relationships involve this dance on the triangle. It helps to see your role in it, so that you can see what you need to do to make a change. I would say that the perspective of the person with BPD is that of victim. Others are either rescuers "white" or persecuters "black.  But everyone ends up a victim. The pw BPD looks to the rescuer to "save" them, from what- their anxiety? bad feelings? stress? poor self image?  The rescuer needs to be a rescuer to elevate their own poor self esteem. However, rescuing can also feel invalidating to the pw BPD, or the rescuer fails to make the pw BPD feel better, and so becomes the persecutor. Or, by saying no to the pw BPD, you become their persecutor. Then, they react by having an emotional scene, but it seems justified to them because in that moment, they see you as attacking them.

Your wife doesn't see herself as being violent, possibly because she is not that aware, but I would bet that in that moment in time, she sees herself as a victim OF you, and she is fighting back, and she truly believes in that moment, that her behavior is justified.

Imagine "Max help me with my class" ( victim to rescuer) Max, being the "good guy" ( well I promised and I'm gonna be the good guy) steps in to help. Wife feels invalidated by helping - it sends a message that she can't do it herself (victim). Max is the invalidator- persecutor. Wife's poor self image is triggered ( he thinks I can't do it myself)-- and she is angry.

I have noticed that even a small bit of unintended advice can send an invalidating message to my mom ( and sometimes my H). Their angry responses seemed to come out of the blue until I caught on to this)

[Sunfl0wer]

I can't keep letting the violence boundary be crossed, and she can't see where screaming, name calling, throwing things, and kicking doors is violent.  

You are right, things cannot maintain this way.  Things are unstable.  Something will give.

As long as she is being accepted, even after she has done abusive things... .

She will see this as "acceptable" behavior.

You need to invalidate the invalid here I think.  

She behaves violent

After which... . You accept her in your home and life _{in hopes that she will change}

She gets the message from you that her violent behavior is "acceptable."

She behaves violent again... .

After which... .You hide behind a closed door.

She gets the message that abuse and violence is an effective tool to exert control when she is feeling out of control.  She is using it to feel in control... .when she is feeling out of control herself.

You are helping her do these self destructive things.

I imagine that making a choice to act and serve a RO must feel scary.

Consider that not acting... .is also an active choice.

You are making a choice to participate in her self destruction.

Are you ok with your active participation in harming her?

Does thinking about it this way alter your perspective at all?

How would you act if it was not you?  If you saw a woman being treated the way your wife treats you behind closed doors... .and you were in a grocery store viewing her get intensely berated and hit?  What would you want to do for that woman Max?

Edit: I realize now this is a continued thread... . I did not read first one btw.

[married21years]

i was lucky with the violence boundary,

she smacked me in the mouth, i took it stood there saw the fear in her eyes of retaliation and just said

do you really want to play that game?

[an0ught]

Abusive behavior does not stop when there is insight. Insight is insufficient to stop someone who is inmature doing what is working for then e.g. allowing to blow of steam.

Abuse can be stopped with boundaries since boundaries stop abuse to be working for the abuser. Taking away the target for their anger forces the abuser to find new and hopefully for them healthier ways. It is definitely healthier for us.

[formflier]

 

Hang in there max! 

 

She may... .or may not ever see the raging and kicking doors as bad (I honestly think she does see it as bad during periods of self reflection)... .the key is that you see it as bad... and take steps for you... .which will help her.

My take is that she feels entitled to pitch a fit... .because she has been doing that for so long in her life (way before you... .) and it has been working for her. 

There is probably something in her mind that says... ."I know this is bad... .but xyz is even worse... .therefore... .I can act out" (a good bit of speculation there... .from me following these posts for a while)

Thoughts?

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Looking in my ex-husband's eyes when he was attacking me, it seemed like there was no conscious, self-aware person there--that person was unreachable--it was just a manifestation of pure rage.

Like wavrider said, the more that switch gets tripped, the faster the switch from executive function to amygdala driven violent rage.

I doubt that there is a good strategy for dealing with an individual who has quit using the thinking brain and is now in the midst of a violent rage. The safest bet is to get out of danger as soon as possible.

[maxsterling]

I just wanted to thank all of you for your understanding, advice and support.  It's really been a lifesaver.  I'm glad to have found a place where people understand how difficult this situation is. 

[Skip]

Abuse can be stopped with boundaries...

And light.

In a time of calm, its important to seek help for the physical violence.  Its easy to agree to.  Its easy to get family to help.  You don't have to assign blame. Get it into the light.  Light is the greatest deterrent.

Mom, we have physical violence in our relationship and we want it to stop.  Can you help us?

[maxsterling]

Back in the spare room, sleeping with the door locked... .

Came home from second job tonight, feeling extremely tired and like I am getting sick.  Wife wanted to have sex (ovulation time).  I told her that I felt ill and needed rest.   Then the big dysregulation.  Probably did not enforce boundary soon enough, but I did, and said NO to violence. 

[married21years]

sorry bud

[formflier]

   

Hang in there Max.

FF

[maxsterling]

What a horrible nights sleep.  It just felt like as soon as I would fall asleep I would wake up again with flashbacks.  This is pretty typical for after dealing with a rage.  Then driving to work, my radiator exploded.  Not a good start to today at all

[Sunfl0wer]

What a horrible nights sleep.  It just felt like as soon as I would fall asleep I would wake up again with flashbacks.  This is pretty typical for after dealing with a rage.  Then driving to work, my radiator exploded.  Not a good start to today at all

I am so sorry Max!

I have PTSD and feel for you.

You are being re traumatized. 

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree that she might not even see kicking doors and throwing things as abusive. In her mind, she's not hurting you, and she probably just views it as blowing off steam. I had a Dad who did that stuff, and while we wished he didn't do it, he wasn't an abuser, and it was not directed AT anyone. Also, she knows it bothers you, and she's crossed the line into actually attacking you. Therefore, she should curtail this behavior because she knows it's an issue.

Does she have any highly physical ways to act out her aggression? BPDh's T suggested Tae Kwon Do one time, just because of his huge rage issue. He never did it, and his DBT seems to be working. I used to worry that "mindfulness" wasn't going to be as immediately fulfilling as getting angry, but it seems to work, for the most part.

If I were you, I'd sleep with the door locked too. I'm so sorry for all you are going through Max. You are really strong. Don't forget that.

[maxsterling]

No physical ways of taking out aggression.  She's pretty sedentary, and I think that is part of the problem.  Rather than do active things, she sits and stews, concocts reasons to blame me or others, and winds herself into a knot.  That's the complete opposite of me.  When my brain starts racing, I get up and go for a walk, do physical labor, or expend energy.  I don't think the quiet mindfulness works for her, because she can't turn her brain off.  However, she claims Yoga helps, but she rarely does it, and only does it when she is in a decent mood to begin with.