POLL: My BPD detector went off today... interested in comments on my reaction

[Notwendy]

This exchange irritated you and you asked for feedback about it here, which is great, because this is an opportunity to learn. We could consider what is going on with that lady- does she have BPD, was she rude, stressed, crazy, but really, she isn't asking here and she isn't reading ( I don't think) and we have basically no information about her, so anything we say about her is a guess at best.

But, we can discuss your side of it, because you are asking and reading, and in every relationship/exchange between people, there are two involved.

GAgirl said it most succinctly, but others have said it too- and the most valuable part of this interchange to you is that it triggered you. It bothered you to think someone did not think you were honorable.

I can understand being bothered by someone thinking this if they were close to you and you were concerned about your relationship with them, but this woman is not someone who knows you well. Who knows what she is thinking? She could be paranoid and think this about anyone. Or she could be just mad.

This was not personal, it was a sale. Salespeople have encountered all kinds of rudeness, but as part of their job, they know that if an irate customer returns an item, the policy is to refund it. A salesperson would likely get fired if he or she demanded an apology from a customer. The policy "customer is always right" isn't necessarily true, but it is a business principle.

My best guess for the reason this woman called you is to get her money back. Yes, she said other things, but #1 was a refund.

You were triggered, but you still had a choice. IMHO, this is where the conversation got complicated. She wants her money back and you make it contingent on an apology. Why? if the stroller was not satisfactory, then she should be able to take it back and get a refund. regardless. She may have been rude, but still, being triggered is your part.

If you can own your part, then this interchange is useful to you because you know yourself, and have no effect on how that woman thinks or behaves. The title then can move from "My BPD detector went off" to "My personal trigger went off".

[Notwendy]

The pink elephant analogy is a measuring stick for our own triggers.

We get triggered by statements that may or may not be true, because those statements resonate with us for a reason. We may not know the reason, but they feel hurtful, they sting. They can trigger us into trying to defend ourselves (JADE). If we feel attacked, then we can get reactive to them, trigger the other person, and then we are in one of those too familiar conversations.

If someone were to call us a pink elephant, then we are likely not to be triggered because we know, with absolute certainty, that we are not a pink elephant. Such a comment would not effect us emotionally.

We would likely not JADE that we are not pink elephants. Something that we know is not true does not need to be defended.

When I hear something that may bother me, I think " is this something I need to consider, or, is this a pink elephant?" This is helpful to keep me from reacting if triggered.

This is not to say that you are not honorable, but somehow this lady's rudeness bothered you, even if it was not true. This is a situation that might result in some insight that could help in exchanges with people you are close to.

[enlighten me]

She sounds like my exgf. My thoughts are the stroller was fine but she either broke it or had gone off of it. Rather than admit fault she put the blame on you. She may have backed herself into a corner with her partner by saying you sold it broken . Her partner might have said he would deal with it. Risking being found out she then irrately contacted you.

My exgf did this. She would break things and try and claim they came that way. Normally it would end up my fault for buying shidy goods.

[formflier]

This was not personal, it was a sale. Salespeople have encountered all kinds of rudeness, but as part of their job, they know that if an irate customer returns an item, the policy is to refund it. A salesperson would likely get fired if he or she demanded an apology from a customer. The policy "customer is always right" isn't necessarily true, but it is a business principle.

It's also a "business principle" of mine... .that if I don't have to deal with ridiculous behavior... .I don't.  

My goal is not her happiness... .I was trying to do the right thing by her... .and by me.  

My honor is worth standing up for... .I'm worth standing up for... .I have choices... .she has choices.

Where she was suggestive (I'm guessing in accordance with her values)... .I was clear (in accordance with mine).

At this point... .I wish I had asked a clarifying question (the offroad post... .still having my Costanza moment)... but I didn't.

I do wonder if because if have had to "get over" my honor thing at home (with my wife)... .perhaps I am a bit more prickly about it in the rest of my life.

But... I've always been that way... .I have stopped defending it at home... .that's the difference... that I see anyway.

Last time something like this came up was about a year ago... .in my work situation (I'm an executive type)... .a guy I had a good r/s up until that point and that was wanting to bring in business starting ranting about what I had and hadn't done with the attorney.

Then he said I was lying to him... .(we were on a phone in 3 way call with his other business partner)... .anyway... .I got him to hush and said I had something he needed to listen to.  (these were also retired military types)

To his credit he listened.  I gave him an evenly delivered talk about not letting people impugn my honor... .that I am truthful and I have better things to do with my time than listen to his accusations.  I ended it with letting him know that if he wanted to continue dealing with me... .he could retract his accusations and apologize... .and all would be well with us.

I could tell he was seething on the phone... .his business partner... .also retired military type said... ."Well gentlemen... .sounds like we are done here."

I said:  "I'm done... "

Other guy:  "i'm done"

To his credit... .he called back later and apologized.  I accepted the apology... .thanked him for him... .and... I never brought it up again. 

I'm not saying my world... and my way is the right way... .but... .I suspect I'm in the minority.

FF

[Notwendy]

We all have principles we are willing to defend.

However, we can also choose our battles.

Many of our actions have a payoff and a cost. When the cost is higher than the payoff, we have the opportunity to reconsider our actions.

I understand that what you did was doing the right thing by you and your values.

I am curious how you think it is doing the right thing for her.

I reviewed her responses to you, and while she is framed as the one with the issues (BPD- and that may or may not be the case- we don't know), and she may have been rude to you, she called you to get a refund. When you added the apology as a contingent to that refund, she backed down.

Consider the possibility that it was not about apologizing to you, but that it just wasn't worth $30 to her to deal with you anymore- to make arrangements to return the stroller- and she may have wanted to end the conversation.

It is possible that neither of you did the wrong thing by the stroller. I once bought a coffee pot on e bay and when I opened the box and took it out, the handle cracked off. The seller did not sell me a broken pot. I did not break it. It happened. I contacted the seller to tell her what happened and she refunded my money immediately. There was no more exchange between us than that. Each of us gave the other the benefit of the doubt.

When to defend our rights and principles and when to let go for the sake of peace is a personal choice. One can do this to the extent of losing sight of who we are, or losing sight of who the other is, but I think there is a middle ground. You have your honor, and her $30.  She is out $30 and has a broken stroller. She let go.

I don't mean to be harsh, but again, you asked for feedback. I can't give it to her, she isn't on here. I am posting for the sake of considering this at all angles, not about who is right or who is wrong, and in hopes that seeing different perspectives will help us in all our relationships.

[formflier]

she backed down.

Yeah... .I don't back down much. 

Since learning about BPD and being on this site... .I've been "backing down" more... .in my r/s.

More accurately... .I don't make a fuss about as many things anymore.  If I do make a fuss about something... .I have thought it through... .and will NOT back down.  No intermittent reinforcement... .

I believe I did the right thing "for her" by accepting her request for a refund and clearly (no suggestions or hints) laying out how to do that.  While it might have been satisfying to "pick up the bait" and send her a speech back about what I thought of her... (old me would have done this... )... .I skipped it.   

I also let her know... clearly and succinctly (no speeches)... .what I was unhappy about... .and gave her the chance to make it right.  She declined... .her choice. 

FF

[Cat Familiar]

She was out of line accusing you of selling a defective stroller.

You were out of line demanding an apology.

[formflier]

Interesting... .I don't feel like I "demanded" an apology.  I've noticed the use of that word a bunch in this post... .not one I normally use.

I set conditions upon which she was able to get something... .for which she was not entitled (IMO)... .she choose to not exercise that option.

She did... .to her credit... .attempt a sort of negotiation... .hey... let's skip the hurt feelings (not exactly her words)... .that was not acceptable to me... .I would have felt like smartass suggesting that she skip over doing her due diligence to protect her kids... so... I chose to stick with my original position...

Honestly not trying to argue with anyone here... .I find the different points of view fascinating... .whether I agree with them or not. 

[Notwendy]

This could be seen in different terms.

There are two separate issues that were bundled together.

She bought a stroller from you. According to her it was broken. She called to ask for a refund.

She insulted you and made false accusations. You wanted an apology.

So, two people are left wanting something from the other. She wants a refund, you want an apology.

Two people are left holding something the other person wants: you have the $30, she has the apology.

You made her getting the $30 contingent on apologizing to you. Maybe this is better than the term "demanded"


But this really is two separate issues collapsed into one, and one where each of you took the stand and paid a price for it. Hers was to not apologize and give up what she wants ( the money). Yours was to keep the money and give up on what you want. ( the apology)

You both win something and you both lose something.

Could there have been a win -win?

She could have called you up ranting, and you could have chosen to not address the rant at the moment, and offered to give the money back.

She, happy with the refund, could possibly have realized you were not trying to rip her off. At the exchange you may have had the chance to say something to her such as, I am happy to give you a refund. I had no idea that the stroller would break. I hope this gives me the chance to show this to you, that I am an honorable man.

And she may or may not have said "yes you are, I am sorry. I was afraid I had been ripped off but now I see that this is not the case.

And it may or may not have been win-win, but at least the chance for that was there.

Hindsight is 20-20 so no blaming here,... .but something to think about. In the middle of an emotional exchange we don't usually think of other options, but we can after the fact.

[sweetheart]

Hi ff,

I have read your entry post twice now some 8 hours apart, I was triggered when I read it this morning and it still triggers me now.

I think you are very open to post it here and ask for feed-back, so my filtered trigger free feed-back is... .

I don't know if the woman has BPD, but I suspect not, because whilst I would have kicked myself for not checking, I too would have assumed that on a child's buggy that the brakes really would be in working order. I too would have been extremely upset to find they were broken, and I would have been devastated if harm had come to my children as a result of this.

Her phonecall to you albeit emotional sounds absolutely fine to me, what wasn't fine to me was your response.

Really ff, an apology?

She was restrained in backing down from this response from you and backing away and not bothering with the refund, and she was right IMO she had nothing to apologise for.

I wouldn't have been so diplomatic or measured in my response to your conditions for a refund.

What I have learnt since coming here is that I can be triggered, big time, but I can now validate someone's emotional distress and I no longer have a need to have the final say, or be right, or to push home my values.

[formflier]

Two people are left holding something the other person wants: you have the $30, she has the apology.

Yep... .much better.  And... .right now I'm "satisfied"... .I wouldn't really call this a "win"... .but I also didn't "loose".  

Knowing me... .I would have been upset... .felt bad... .whatever... .if I gave the $30 and didn't get an apology... .or she still behaved oddly.

I also would have felt bad... .or feel I misled her in some way... .to say I would give her the $30... .and the bring up the apology or her behavior when she got here.  

FF

[formflier]

Her phonecall to you 

It was a text exchange... .I only removed her and my name... .and the name of my town... .

[formflier]

Hi ff,

I have read your entry post twice now some 8 hours apart, I was triggered when I read it this morning and it still triggers me now.

 

Any idea what part of that is triggering?

FF

[ColdEthyl]

@FF the way I read that exchange sounds BPDish to me, also. If it was me and I bought an item like that and found the brakes to not be working, the fact that your answer right away was to have her return it with a full refund and you would apologize.

I think when you have been around BPD enough, we might see it where it isn't, but we also pick up on it a lot quicker. Just like my mechanic story where he was ripping me off but HE was offended. He got away with it too due my husband's lack of action. (To sue him, I needed the title. He needs to go have the replacement title document notarized and won't do so. We are out a truck, his roofing tools, and the 2,300 paid for the repairs. Not something I can do for him)

It's the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon.

[formflier]

 

JADE alert!

I would have felt and acted totally different if I knew I did something wrong (or strongly suspected)... .but... .if I had to bet... .the brakes got broken... .messed up somehow by her getting in and out of her car... .or setting it up... .no idea.  Stuff happens.

My money is on that they were working fine when they left my house... .

Owned this thing for years... .every time I pulled the brake handle... .or clicked the foot brake... .worked fine.  They aren't complicated.  I'm a pretty big gearhead... .work on lots of equipment.  I can geek out on how machines work.  

Most of the time... .people break things... .rather than things just "breaking".  They are misused.  I've broken tons of stuff... .and learned lessons.  

So... .stuff happens... .I think I'm a reasonable guy... .and a simple request would have gotten a simple response.

Again... .I'm fascinated by the different points of view... .the way people view and "handle" the world around them.

FF

[formflier]

we might see it where it isn't, but we also pick up on it a lot quicker.

This was really the "point" or question of my post. 

Obviously... .I have no idea about her mental health from this one interaction... .but man... .it just sounded odd... .and was odd to me.

This seems to be text book to suggest that I am a scoundrel... .without really saying it directly.

I'm obviously a direct guy... .upfront guy. 

So... .I've noticed I have a "BPD detector"... .or at least a "odd behavior detector"... .

Seems like others have developed this as well. 

No idea if my detector is calibrated correctly... .

FF

[ColdEthyl]

LOL FF... .I often find myself wondering if I have BPD, also. I tend to have black and white thinking, I do have 'triggers', I do sometimes have outbursts from an overflow of emotions, and I have paranoia/anxiety issues.

I think we get calibrated to what we have to deal with in our daily lives. My thoughts and reactions are based on what my life history has taught me, and vice versa.

[formflier]

  I tend to have black and white thinking, I do have 'triggers', 

My guess is... .that you are more consistent... .(that nons are more consistent) in their black and white thinking... .

I actually like black and white thinking... .if it is consistent.  If it's not consistent... .well... kinda like Gump's box of chocolates... .you never know what you will get...

So... .am I "black and white" about aspersions on my character... .and I rigid... .YEP... .guilty as charged... .  But... .I'm consistent... .at least I believe I am... .   

FF

[enlighten me]

I think that after what weve been through we notice more.

I was once told that we have an in built defense mechanism. Its an ancient one that goes back to cavemen. When we are exposed to something that isnt good for us then we build an aversion to it. I was told this about food. It was a defense mechanism that stopped people poisening themselves. I cant see why it wouldnt spill over into other areas and give a similar reaction.

[KateCat]

So... .am I "black and white" about aspersions on my character... .and I rigid... .YEP... .guilty as charged... .  But... .I'm consistent... .at least I believe I am... .   

I'm not convinced you're going to feel so great about this particular contract dispute at a later time, when you look back on it. (I think you are honorable enough to wonder whether you really honored the basics of an offer/acceptance understanding here. The woman now either has to apologize or go to small claims court, which I doubt you intended initially.)

You would have to be a stone statue, I think, not to be affected by the wild accusations your wife makes against you, on a regular basis, and in front of your children. And for it not to bleed over into other aspects of your life. Here, I feel, it did.

[MaybeSo]

Ugh. Yes lack civility.

Entitlement attitude.

Lack of ownership, she could have insisted on checking herself before purchase, caveat emptor has been around a long time.

Inability to calm oneself down before speaking.

The lecture complete with haughty tone, as if she has never in her life made a mistake and is 100% blameless.

Victim mentality.

Splitting... .viewing this as all black and that you are up to something nefarious... .there was nothing in her statement that embraced the more obvious possibility that you simply didn't know the brakes weren't working.

I can understand protecting her kids and getting a bit "mother bear" about it b/c her instinct to protect kicked in (presumably) ... but it's pretty over the top.

Who knows if she's Borderline or not.  

It seems a lot of our society has embraced a very borderline way of viewing life. Potentially bad or risky things should never ever happen and when they do it's a huge drama filled fiasco and there is always someone to blame.  It's was fuels litigation.

This would trigger me.  I'd have to use all my skills to take the high road in my response to this. Obviously your response was a reaction to being triggered and you were not in your 'skills' place.   It's human.  

It's $30.  

In my higher self,  I'd return the $30 and apologize that I was not aware the brakes were faulty, I would empathize/validate her  b/c it involves her children's safety and so of course she is going to be upset and it's understandable... .and be done with it.

In my reactionary self... .I'd have said something in a what the heck tone like... ." I didn't know the brakes were bad, it worked fine for us, I'm sorry, calm down!  here's your $30 back... .Geesh!"

I don't think I would have demanded an apology from her for speaking to me as though I'm a bad person.  Who cares if she assumes your a bad person?  She doesn't know you.  Also... .It's possible I COULD be a BAD PERSON... .again she doesn't know you.  

I am only human, I sometime actually do do BAD or insensitve things. I'm not perfect.  Nor is she.  I'm not normally THAT attached to being seen as without fault especially by a stranger who is clearly flipped out.  If I am feeling attached to that... .it would be interesting to explore why, but only if it was really bugging me.

bah... .Life is too short.


 

[ColdEthyl]

My guess is... .that you are more consistent... .(that nons are more consistent) in their black and white thinking... .

I actually like black and white thinking... .if it is consistent.  If it's not consistent... .well... kinda like Gump's box of chocolates... .you never know what you will get...

So... .am I "black and white" about aspersions on my character... .and I rigid... .YEP... .guilty as charged... .  But... .I'm consistent... .at least I believe I am... .   

FF

I am, and if evidence is presented to prove me wrong, I do not have a problem with accepting it and reworking my thoughts on a subject. That is different than pwBPD. But I know because of my black and white thinking, if my expectations are not met I can be triggered.

I try to keep in mind a line from a Ray Wylie Hubbard song, ""And the days that I keep my gratitude higher than my expectations... .Well, I have really good days"

I strive to keep my gratitude higher than my expectations.

[KateCat]

I like MaybeSo's thoughts. Facing such rudeness, who knows how one might respond on any given day. Sorry this happened to you.

[Notwendy]

I agree that we humans could use some more civility, however, when we are in a state of anger, or being triggered, we do not tend to act from our higher self. Our lizard brains can take over.

I remember opening the coffee maker, and it broke. I was not happy and I also worried that I had been ripped off. But I decided to attempt to explain the situation to the seller. I offered to return it, but noted that the postage to do that was more than it was worth. Had the seller lived nearby, I would have brought it to her. The exchange went no further as she refunded the money and I thanked her.

I mention this because for a moment, I was upset to get a broken pot, and I can imagine that the woman who bought the stroller could have fears she was ripped off and also was angry, which is one reason she was inappropriately rude.

There are a number of possible reactions, one is FF's, another is, well this lady is having a really bad day, and others.

It is also possible that nobody is at fault over the brakes. Things break when they break, and it isn't always predictable. However, if something breaks soon after purchase, it is understandable that the buyer could be upset and wants a refund.

FF took a stand over his honor, and that is understandable, but honor isn't necessarily won verbally. In the Wild West, two people went to duel over their honor, and I guess the one who wasn't dead was the winner, and I guess to them, honor was worth dying for.

Honor can be won by actions as well. The lady who sold me the coffee pot demonstrated her honor by promptly refunding the money. I know she was someone to be trusted, because although I gave her money for the pot, she returned it to me when I brought up an issue with it.  However, I did not know that when I first got it and I imagined I could be ripped off. As a result, I gave her a good recommendation on e bay, because I know she can not predict the future- that the pot would break right as I got it. That she can not control. However, she proved herself to be a reliable seller by how she handled it.

I know I didn't insult her or speak rudely to her, but that is another issue. This is a money- object exchange, and even if that lady is rude, she doesn't get her money back without an apology. To FF, it may feel good to take a stand on this, and you may be happy with the outcome, but if your intention was for her to think you are an honorable guy, I don't know if this convinced her.

[formflier]

  Here, I feel, it did.

Entirely possible... . 

Couple other comments... .I am the way I am.  I am really focusing on using tools with my wife.  And to a lesser degree with my kids.

I don't have the energy... .or the interest... .to use it in the rest of my life.  I'm curious if I will feel differently about this in a few years... .

KateCat can remember this day... .and ask me about it in a few years! 

FF

[formflier]

  but if your intention was for her to think you are an honorable guy, I don't know if this convinced her.

I don't care what she thinks... .my honor... .good name... .etc etc is worth defending... .

I also had a goal of clearly giving the lady a pathway to her refund... .a pathway that (IMO) offered her a chance to do the right thing... .and me a chance to do the right thing.

FF

[KateCat]

KateCat can remember this day... .and ask me about it in a few years! 

Will do.

[OffRoad]

I would have felt and acted totally different if I knew I did something wrong (or strongly suspected)... .but... .if I had to bet... .the brakes got broken... .messed up somehow by her getting in and out of her car... .or setting it up... .no idea.  Stuff happens.

My money is on that they were working fine when they left my house... .

Owned this thing for years... .every time I pulled the brake handle... .or clicked the foot brake... .worked fine.  They aren't complicated.  I'm a pretty big gearhead... .work on lots of equipment.  I can geek out on how machines work.  

FWIW, I also do not believe that BOTH the hand brake AND the foot brake (as they are not connected to each other) were broken when you sold it. They are specifically NOT connected to each other so if one breaks, the other might still work. You know this.

The woman's passive aggressive behavior would trigger nearly anyone, but would much more do so for someone who, while acknowledging that both brakes have a very slim possibility of not working, logistically knows that the chances of both brakes not being in working order is very, very slight. Her impugning your honor without first clarifying ("Were you aware that the brakes on this stroller were not functioning?" was, in fact, rude, passive aggressive and indirect. She was TRYING to put you on the defensive to give herself a better position to get her money back. People who do things in that way don't realize that their behavior is not conducive to working things out in a pleasant manner. They are used to doing that because, as notwendy says, in the customer service world, it doesn't matter if the customer is a jerk, the customer is always right.

BTW, the word "demand" does not necessarily have a negative connotation. The definition is "ask authoritatively or brusquely", and you would have to concede that you did request for the apology in order for her to get the money back, no other choices available. In other words, you made the rules for the exchange, with no compromise available. And if that was important to you, then so be it. In my post, it was simply an observation that being that rigid in your first response may not have been your best choice. It doesn't mean it was a bad choice, but there might have been better in this particular case.

Also, FWIW, while I would not necessarily have wanted an apology, I WOULD have called her on her passive aggressive behavior, if I recognized it in time. We all have our Costanza moments.

[Cat Familiar]

Here's an angle you might not have considered, FF. Granted, the woman was upset and accusatory, but she may well have worked herself up in a tizzy thinking that you purposefully sold her a broken stroller. Perhaps she has been taken advantage of before. Maybe her budget was really tight and this caused her major distress. Whatever... .we don't know... .

The dynamic we do know is that in order to get a refund from you, she would have to see you again and bring the stroller.

As a woman, I would be concerned if I were in her shoes (although I would never be so rude). The apology as part of the exchange process seems like it was a bit intimidating, coming from a man. She might wonder if you would behave aggressively toward her in person. I don't see anywhere in your conversation an apology from you that it was broken. So, in effect, you were denying her reality without evidence, other than historically it worked some time ago for you. Your kids might have broken it sometime, playing with it.

[Cat Familiar]

And the ultimate outcome is that she has a potentially broken stroller, while you've got $30.

She probably thinks you're an a-hole, so not only have you not defended your honor, you've given a stranger a very bad impression.