BPD vs. NPD wonderings

[GreenEyedMonster]

As I increasingly theorize that I am dealing with a narcissist with some BPD tendencies, I am wondering some things about the differences between the two.

-My exbf repeatedly told me that he had abandonment fears, but never once expressed any concern that I would break up with him.  In fact, he conducted himself with a sense of entitlement and a "take it or leave it" attitude in our relationship.  He had never had a girlfriend before, but was completely confident that he was a "good boyfriend" and was not interested in taking direction from me.  I would imagine that someone with abandonment anxiety would be the opposite -- catering to every wish because he was so worried about losing me.  In truth, he would state veiled threats to me, like, "I'd rather be alone than be in a bad relationship."  (Make it "good" or else!)

-He also claimed to have social anxiety, but it seemed to be very selective.  For one thing, if I asked him if he were anxious about a situation, he would invariably deny that he was.  (He said he didn't like people knowing about his vulnerabilities.)  In social situations, he would talk about himself incessantly.  Other people I've known with social anxiety tended to be very quiet in social situations that made them nervous and did as little as possible to draw attention to themselves.  Exbf, on the other hand, would drape himself in a chair in a sexy pose and sit there sipping his drink.  When at my family's house, he would help himself to as much as he wanted of everything without a second thought.  Was he concerned about social awkwardness . . . or narcissistic injury?

-Exbf describes himself as having a "strong sense of justice," but in reality, it is a desire for revenge that borders on sadistic.  Anyone who offers him criticism -- however constructive -- deserves to be punished.  Heck, that's why he broke up with me -- I dared to tell him that what he was doing for me wasn't good enough.  He seems to enjoy the suffering that I am experiencing after the breakup, and feel no remorse.  He takes personal offense at everything -- even advertising billboards or other people's tastes -- and spews vitriol about tiny sleights like being cut off in traffic. 

-He openly describes himself as patient, caring, polite, generous, and tolerant.  I am coming to the conclusion that he is none of the above.  He also described some of his intellectual talents in very flattering terms that hid the reality of the situation.

So, was I really dealing with a narcissist?  Thoughts?

[Beach_Babe]

Yep, and I think we dated the same person. Lol.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Green-

He had never had a girlfriend before, but was completely confident that he was a "good boyfriend"

Well, that says a lot right there.  The difference between a fictional relationship in our heads and a real-world relationship with a living, breathing woman is night and day, always challenging, and the first one is the steepest part of the learning curve.

-My exbf repeatedly told me that he had abandonment fears, but never once expressed any concern that I would break up with him.  In fact, he conducted himself with a sense of entitlement and a "take it or leave it" attitude in our relationship... .and was not interested in taking direction from me.  I would imagine that someone with abandonment anxiety would be the opposite -- catering to every wish because he was so worried about losing me.  In truth, he would state veiled threats to me, like, "I'd rather be alone than be in a bad relationship."  (Make it "good" or else!)

The other half is fear of engulfment, fear of losing himself, and the way to balance those fears is to be in control.  And he isn't consciously aware of those fears, they're just feelings, what he's aware of is that he wants to be loved, like everyone else, but when he goes there with someone these feelings come up, he doesn't know where they came from, and he can't soothe or regulate them, and turning to you for help would feel bad, like he's losing himself, so being alone seems like an attractive option because it makes the intense feelings stop.

(He said he didn't like people knowing about his vulnerabilities.)

See above, along with if he was vulnerable and showed someone who he really is, they would find out he's as worthless as he thinks he is, so they'd leave, abandoning him and confirming his version of himself.

-He also claimed to have social anxiety, but it seemed to be very selective.  For one thing, if I asked him if he were anxious about a situation, he would invariably deny that he was... .In social situations, he would talk about himself incessantly.  Other people I've known with social anxiety tended to be very quiet in social situations that made them nervous and did as little as possible to draw attention to themselves. 

Could it have been overcompensation?  Get real chatty about himself, selling himself to people, avoiding the vulnerability, and preventing other people from asking questions that may expose that vulnerability.  Been there done that myself, it's pretty common, and the lower the opinion someone has of themselves the more they'll amp it up, a verbal protection wall.

-Exbf describes himself as having a "strong sense of justice," but in reality, it is a desire for revenge that borders on sadistic.  Anyone who offers him criticism -- however constructive -- deserves to be punished.  Heck, that's why he broke up with me -- I dared to tell him that what he was doing for me wasn't good enough.  He seems to enjoy the suffering that I am experiencing after the breakup, and feel no remorse. 

When you told him what he was doing for you wasn't good enough you confirmed his worst fear, he's not good enough.  You shamed him, if inadvertently; we feel guilt when we do something bad or wrong, we feel shame when we are bad or wrong, and BPD is a shame-based disorder, so he left you before you could leave him, a preemeptive strike.  And then, to further deal with that shame, he projected the bad he feels about himself onto you to get rid of it and to justify his decision, and what's to feel remorseful about if you are all bad anyway, he did the right thing, in his head.

-He openly describes himself as patient, caring, polite, generous, and tolerant.  I am coming to the conclusion that he is none of the above.  He also described some of his intellectual talents in very flattering terms that hid the reality of the situation.

Maybe he has an inaccurate view of himself because getting an accurate one would require reflection and the resulting self-awareness, and going there is just too ugly and feels too bad, feels much better to construct a version of himself he can live with, along with necessary overcompensations.

So, was I really dealing with a narcissist?

Folks with the disorder can use narcissism as an overcompensation for the shame they feel, so shoot the other way, adopt a sense of entitlement while spewing an idealized version of themselves to the world, partly to convince themselves it's true, partly to keep people away.

Any of that fit Green?

[Suspicious1]

-Exbf describes himself as having a "strong sense of justice," but in reality, it is a desire for revenge that borders on sadistic.  Anyone who offers him criticism -- however constructive -- deserves to be punished.  Heck, that's why he broke up with me -- I dared to tell him that what he was doing for me wasn't good enough.  He seems to enjoy the suffering that I am experiencing after the breakup, and feel no remorse.  He takes personal offense at everything -- even advertising billboards or other people's tastes -- and spews vitriol about tiny sleights like being cut off in traffic. 

Oh yes, mine too. He wanted to be a superhero and saw the world in terms of "good" and "evil". If someone was "evil:, it deserved anything he could throw at them. He joined the police to try and fulfil this need to dispense justice, which of course was totally inappropriate and he ended up being asked to leave because of his brutality.

My P said that her colleagues often said of Cluster Bs that "they are ALL BPD really", meaning that they all shared the BPD features and the aspects of the other disorders were just nuances of the core disorder. It's often said that NPD and BPD have lots of overlaps. I've heard the difference be described as stemming from the same fundamental issues, but NPDs handle their emotional disregulation with grandiosity (i.e. they must be right and everyone else must be wrong), whereas BPDs internalise their emotional disregulation more, and react with lower self esteem, clinginess, anger when people don't rescue them properly etc etc.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Interesting thoughts.  Thanks for sharing.

I can see BPD being the "core" of Cluster B with all of the other features as variations.  That makes a lot of sense.

I guess the main thing that is throwing me off about my ex is his lack of any real abandonment fear coupled with a sense of entitlement.  That seems very N to me.  I know that shame and abandonment fears are the center of BPD -- but he seems to rarely if ever display any sense of shame.

In the last nastygram he sent me, there seemed to be this strange subtext that he actually wanted to hear from me.  He told me to never contact him again, but filled the letter with accusations that any rational person would want to counter.  He also insulted my intelligence by using a false return address when I absolutely, 100% know exactly where he lives -- and he is listed in the phone book!  The letter felt like a challenge to me, so that I would respond and create more drama.  Oh, and he also completely failed to address the fact that I still have a very valuable possession of his, when there are reasonable ways to exchange this item without seeing one another.  The fact that he didn't tell me what to do with this item seems like he is setting me up to create some kind of situation with it.

I have no desire to contact him -- breaking NC is not even a little bit tempting.  At this point I consider the valuable item to be my consolation prize from the relationship.  Returning it is not worth getting a PPO filed against me.

The thing that makes me think he might be a narcissist is that he seems to be enjoying the negative interactions with me just as much as he enjoyed the positive ones. 

From the bit I know of what's happened to him since the breakup, he's not having the easiest time rebuilding his social circle and avoiding sitting at home all alone.  I can't say I feel too bad for him, really, since he insists on taking a blowtorch to every bridge.  Thing is, I have a funny feeling that he will hit a point of desperation and show up one of these days in a place that I can see him.

[Beach_Babe]

-Exbf describes himself as having a "strong sense of justice," but in reality, it is a desire for revenge that borders on sadistic.  Anyone who offers him criticism -- however constructive -- deserves to be punished.  Heck, that's why he broke up with me -- I dared to tell him that what he was doing for me wasn't good enough.  He seems to enjoy the suffering that I am experiencing after the breakup, and feel no remorse.  He takes personal offense at everything -- even advertising billboards or other people's tastes -- and spews vitriol about tiny sleights like being cut off in traffic. 

Oh yes, mine too. He wanted to be a superhero and saw the world in terms of "good" and "evil". If someone was "evil:, it deserved anything he could throw at them. He joined the police to try and fulfil this need to dispense justice, which of course was totally inappropriate and he ended up being asked to leave because of his brutality.

My P said that her colleagues often said of Cluster Bs that "they are ALL BPD really", meaning that they all shared the BPD features and the aspects of the other disorders were just nuances of the core disorder. It's often said that NPD and BPD have lots of overlaps. I've heard the difference be described as stemming from the same fundamental issues, but NPDs handle their emotional disregulation with grandiosity (i.e. they must be right and everyone else must be wrong), whereas BPDs internalise their emotional disregulation more, and react with lower self esteem, clinginess, anger when people don't rescue them properly etc etc.

Yes! This is spot on.

[GreenEyedMonster]

Interesting.  It is really hard to tell . . . but he seems to have some features of both.

[rotiroti]

Have you read, "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life"? If not, I would *~highly~ recommend it. Not only is it filled with useful tools for detaching, but also discusses the overlay between BPD and NPD.

One thing that stood out in my r/s was the lack of empathy - sure she was extremely tuned to others' emotions and was sympathetic, but the narcissistic traits would come out at times.

[Madison66]

Green,

I'm approaching 2 years removed from a 3+ year r/s with uNPD ex gf w/ strong BPD traits.  The longer I'm out of the r/s and more invested in healthy r/s with non PD people, the more I clearly see how irrational and unhealthy my ex gf acted in the r/s and how I allowed myself to actively participate in the mess.  My ex gf was not formally diagnosed, but I had a couples T (who I ended up seeing for individual T for a couple years) caution me that my ex's N ways would most likely not change and if I wasn't ok with the prospect of the next 20 years looking the same or worse I should leave the r/s.  Took me a while to figure this out.

Many of the things that you state were also true of my experiences.  My ex gf was extremely intelligent, but at the same time had an emotional intelligence of a young teen (about the same age as she was at the time she was sexually abused by a female coach).  Her life was nothing short of chaos all while she would attempt to demonstrate that she was in total control.  It didn't matter what common sense or logic I would communicate to her about potential changes or solutions to ease the chaos especially with her young kids.  It didn't matter and she'd become either really defensive or emotional (I'm talking curling up in a fetal position and screaming).  In our r/s, she actively maintained her Match.com profile even six or eight months into the r/s and would push back to me when I would tell her it bothered me.  She'd say "I think it's ok for my man to see that I'm in demand".  All of this said while she expressed extreme fear of abandonment and engulfment.  She projected many of her issues on to other people, especially to me, and wouldn't take accountability for her actions and words or the show empathy for me and others dealing with her messy life.  Yes, IMO empathy was a huge missing piece with my ex gf and it appeared that she would attempt to demonstrate empathy only when it would benefit her and/or protect or maintain her feeling of control even in the face of constant chaos.

I can only bottom line it this way: I found that I could never have the reciprocal love r/s that I wanted and needed with this person.  Diagnosed, undiagnosed, co-morbidity or whatever - I could no longer accept her actions/words and participate in a r/s with her.  It took a while, but I learned to focus inward and deal with my own issues and work to become more healthy for myself and for others in my life.  My life has changed greatly and so has my r/s (plural).  The decision to leave the r/s and focus inward will have ripple effects on my life and the lives of my loved ones for years to come.  It's a needed step to gain some understanding of what you went through and then a life changing step to focus inward and move forward with strength.