I'm an adult, why do I still care?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, been on some dates lately and one of them set up by my parents. I still hang out with this person but I'm really not into it. Anyway-my recent experiences have helped me understand where some of my thoughts on dating, looks, etc, come from.

See, my folks are REALLY pushing this woman on me saying "Oh, she's probably what's best for you." Yeah, that's great. But there is ZERO physical attraction. I'm also the sort of person that will go on a few dates and let it develop just in case I'm wrong. Even with makeup, and everything else... .I feel absolutely nothing there. That isn't to say she's bad looking. Just so not my type. So very very not my type. There's one other thing. That's right, it's not all about appearances. Even if it was, who cares? More on that later though. Her thing is no premarital action. That's a deal breaker for me. Way too conservative. I'm not being some kind of shallow jerkwad for not wanting to deal with that. Also, if I was... .why am I trying to impress or defend my position? Why do I feel the need to justify my choices, and through them, justify my very own existence?

So, lately I start wondering if this person is as good as I can do. Not just for shallow reasons, but also because this is someone who is a bit too different from me. She's lovely, just not close to what I'm looking for, and I have some range in what I like. But then my parents keep dropping how my future will look with this person, or when I tell them that I really don't know my mom would say things like "You're father doesn't have long, and we both just want to see you with the right person." I know she means well, but it has always been this sort of guilt my whole life. To one degree or another, I was always made to feel directly responsible for THEIR problems or their feelings. I always felt like I was disappointing them somehow by doing or not doing this or that. Yes, my parents really like this person but they seem to think this is the best outcome for me. I know they love me, but it also makes me wonder if they look at me and think "Yeah, she's as good as he can do." I want to tell my parents I'm just not attracted to her, or that I find she's way too conservative but I'm afraid I'll be given a whole lecture on how it doesn't matter, or how I expect to snag some kind of model. As if my preferences are set so darn high. They aren't, even if they were who's problem is that but mine? On top of that it's always my folks talking to me as if I'm some kind of ingrate when I criticize them.

The line I always heard was ":)o you really have it so bad? There are parents who beat and starve their kids. Or Parents who just don't care at all." Eventually my mom once told me "The doctors warned me that what I was doing was going to turn you into an egoist." But it was always in a tone suggesting it was my fault I turned out that way and not hers somehow. Yes, they provided for me, and yes they weren't bad parents and they definitely taught me some valuable lessons, but the tone has often been somehow... .wrong. Like someone who says you don't owe them anything, but they're practically seething when you either forget to say thanks or you're not as thrilled as they thought you'd be when they give you something. Maybe I'm crazy, and this is all in my head and I sense hostility where there is none.

My point is, I stayed in my abusive relationship because I figured someone who I'm actually into shouldn't possibly reciprocate and the bad treatment was just almost like "the cost of doing business." You know what I mean?

But it isn't, is it? I can have expectations, standards and preferences. Right? I'm not crazy in saying that if I don't like someone like that, I don't have to? Yes, there's always room for compromise but I really feel as though I'm expected to compromise on something so basic, and something that, yes, really matters in relationships (tons of research on the topic,) yet here I am. I'm fixated on looks (someone here once asked me to examine why) because I'm insecure, and because I always feel as though I have to justify my preferences.

I'm still that kid that's trying to justify his own thoughts, because I was never good enough to just be. Having to compensate for being me. Even as I write it, I wonder if I'm wrong to think this way and if I should just shut up because I have no right to complain.

Yeah.

But hey, at least I'm putting myself out there more. Right? Gotta end it on a positive. Despite it all, I feel better today about my potential prospects than I did 6 months ago.

[Vatz]

So, been on some dates lately and one of them set up by my parents. I still hang out with this person but I'm really not into it. Anyway-my recent experiences have helped me understand where some of my thoughts on dating, looks, etc, come from.

See, my folks are REALLY pushing this woman on me saying "Oh, she's probably what's best for you." Yeah, that's great. But there is ZERO physical attraction. I'm also the sort of person that will go on a few dates and let it develop just in case I'm wrong. Even with makeup, and everything else... .I feel absolutely nothing there. That isn't to say she's bad looking. Just so not my type. So very very not my type. There's one other thing. That's right, it's not all about appearances. Even if it was, who cares? More on that later though. Her thing is no premarital action. That's a deal breaker for me. Way too conservative. I'm not being some kind of shallow jerkwad for not wanting to deal with that. Also, if I was... .why am I trying to impress or defend my position? Why do I feel the need to justify my choices, and through them, justify my very own existence?

So, lately I start wondering if this person is as good as I can do. Not just for shallow reasons, but also because this is someone who is a bit too different from me. She's lovely, just not close to what I'm looking for, and I have some range in what I like. But then my parents keep dropping how my future will look with this person, or when I tell them that I really don't know my mom would say things like "You're father doesn't have long, and we both just want to see you with the right person." I know she means well, but it has always been this sort of guilt my whole life. To one degree or another, I was always made to feel directly responsible for THEIR problems or their feelings. I always felt like I was disappointing them somehow by doing or not doing this or that. Yes, my parents really like this person but they seem to think this is the best outcome for me. I know they love me, but it also makes me wonder if they look at me and think "Yeah, she's as good as he can do." I want to tell my parents I'm just not attracted to her, or that I find she's way too conservative but I'm afraid I'll be given a whole lecture on how it doesn't matter, or how I expect to snag some kind of model. As if my preferences are set so darn high. They aren't, even if they were who's problem is that but mine? On top of that it's always my folks talking to me as if I'm some kind of ingrate when I criticize them.

The line I always heard was ":)o you really have it so bad? There are parents who beat and starve their kids. Or Parents who just don't care at all." Eventually my mom once told me "The doctors warned me that what I was doing was going to turn you into an egoist." But it was always in a tone suggesting it was my fault I turned out that way and not hers somehow. Yes, they provided for me, and yes they weren't bad parents and they definitely taught me some valuable lessons, but the tone has often been somehow... .wrong. Like someone who says you don't owe them anything, but they're practically seething when you either forget to say thanks or you're not as thrilled as they thought you'd be when they give you something. Maybe I'm crazy, and this is all in my head and I sense hostility where there is none.

My point is, I stayed in my abusive relationship because I figured someone who I'm actually into shouldn't possibly reciprocate and the bad treatment was just almost like "the cost of doing business." You know what I mean?

But it isn't, is it? I can have expectations, standards and preferences. Right? I'm not crazy in saying that if I don't like someone like that, I don't have to? Yes, there's always room for compromise but I really feel as though I'm expected to compromise on something so basic, and something that, yes, really matters in relationships (tons of research on the topic,) yet here I am. I'm fixated on looks (someone here once asked me to examine why) because I'm insecure, and because I always feel as though I have to justify my preferences.

I'm still that kid that's trying to justify his own thoughts, because I was never good enough to just be. Having to compensate for being me. Even as I write it, I wonder if I'm wrong to think this way and if I should just shut up because I have no right to complain.

Yeah.

But hey, at least I'm putting myself out there more. Right? Gotta end it on a positive. Despite it all, I feel better today about my potential prospects than I did 6 months ago.

[eeks]

A few months ago I read a book called If You Had Controlling Parents by Dan Neuharth, Ph.D.  He explains that a common reason why parents become controlling is because they experienced trauma in their own childhoods that they didn't have an adult to help them with (e.g. death of a parent, abuse of all types).  The way they cope with the unresolved trauma is to try to control themselves, life, and other people, including their own children.  This can explain the "I had a 'normal' family, I wasn't abused, why do I have so many difficulties in life?" syndrome, because control dynamics, while they are definitely characteristic of families where there is abuse and neglect, can also occur in seemingly "normal" families.

To me this definitely relates to what you are describing, your parents holding you responsible for their feelings, this sense that "they need me to be a certain way in order for them to be happy".  Controlling parents do not support their children's developmental task in adolescence of emotionally "leaving home".

Being given the message "you have no right to complain" can also be part of control dynamics.  If someone complains, they are on the verge of leaving to seek a fulfilling and authentic life for themselves outside the family "script" or rules for living, and in so doing risk exposing any lies and inconsistencies in that script.  Chief among the lies being, "there is no real requirement to live this way, we are free to do as we please".  But because the parents developed this script in childhood for their own survival, they feel they must maintain it at all costs, so anybody who tries to step outside it is likely to get criticized, ostracized, scapegoated etc.

And when the parental tone is one of "we did so much for you, you owe us at least this in return", you have to think to yourself, supporting and being "generous" to a child with expectation of some performance or compliance in return, is not generosity at all, it's manipulation.  Not something to blame them for, in my view they are trying to "purchase" from you the love/attunement they didn't get from their own parents, but something to be aware of.

[Vatz]

That actually makes a lot of sense. My father didn't see much of his own dad during his childhood. Also, the place he grew up and lived in was harsh. So did my mom, (although she and her parents were much closer.)

Here's where I am though, I don't want to be upset at them for their attitude. You know? I want to acknowledge it for what it is, move past it, and have a healthy relationship with them. Or at the very least, keep things pleasant. I guess I just want to stop worrying, or even letting this stuff get in my head. But I've developed this habit of either overthinking or seeing a problem as bigger than it really is. I think a healthy person would just speak their mind, go their own way and that would be the end of it. Problem solved.

I just wish I knew what it was like to not feel like I always have to somehow justify myself. It's not just an issue with parents. This sort of thing makes it hard for me to sometimes have thoughts of my own, or saying "no" to certain people because I am always thinking to myself "What if I'm wrong/too dumb/too incompetent to make this choice for myself?" Or "What if I don't actually deserve the things I want, and should just forget it?"

You know any way to develop that kind of self-assurance? I mean, what would some steps be in this? I'm too old to still be letting myself get bossed around by my insecurities. I want to follow what I want in life, and assess what I can and can't do based on actual facts and evidence instead of fear and need to "explain myself." I don't know where to begin.

[eeks]

The book has detailed suggestions and anecdotes from real people from the author's research, on how to deal with relationships and communication with parents as an adult.  (I didn't find that part as relevant to me for a number of reasons, but it's there.)

I just wish I knew what it was like to not feel like I always have to somehow justify myself. It's not just an issue with parents. This sort of thing makes it hard for me to sometimes have thoughts of my own, or saying "no" to certain people because I am always thinking to myself "What if I'm wrong/too dumb/too incompetent to make this choice for myself?" Or "What if I don't actually deserve the things I want, and should just forget it?"

You know any way to develop that kind of self-assurance? I mean, what would some steps be in this? I'm too old to still be letting myself get bossed around by my insecurities. I want to follow what I want in life, and assess what I can and can't do based on actual facts and evidence instead of fear and need to "explain myself." I don't know where to begin.

Controlling parents who always intervene in their child's situations, or are quick to give advice, can leave the child with the impression that they are not competent to handle the situation on their own.  How about turning that around... .your parents were not competent (due to their own experiences, limitations and fears) to support you, in a way that is non-prescriptive and guides and facilitates you to self-awareness in order to make your own decisions and have your own experience?

Nonviolent Communication is a useful tool, practiced on yourself, to become aware of and ground yourself in your feelings and needs.  Once you have a solid understanding of yourself, you will be able to use it to understand what needs your parents are trying to meet by behaving as they do, but if you are anything like me that process will make you angry before you reach acceptance.  "Focusing" (Eugene Gendlin and others) is a useful tool for self-awareness as well.  I think it would be good to have some friends and contacts to talk to who are genuinely "following what they want in life", not in reaction to past limitations (watch out for the motivational/personal growthy types, those can be equally dogmatic in the opposite direction).

Oh, and just a question, when you have second-guessed yourself, doubted or made decisions based on others' advice or pressure to do what they wanted you to do... .did it work?  How did things turn out?  (kinda silly but might result in you being able to say to them, even silently to yourself "well, what I want to do can't possibly turn out worse than what you told me to do!"

I imagine at some point you will need to start experimenting with following your own impulses for "what to do" in a situation and see how it goes, but even before that, if you have a therapist, getting therapy should be helping you validate the accuracy of your own perceptions and feelings, and if it's not that might be something to talk about with him or her.

The other thing I would be aware of is, if you start telling your parents "I am doing it this way" and refusing any questions or being drawn into their second-guessing, cajoling, manipulation, whatever... .be prepared for them to escalate (emotionally, as well as their tactics).  Not guaranteed, (sometimes they collapse and try the "nice" strategy at that point) but remember what I said about their script being a matter of their survival.

[Vatz]

Hey eeks,

Here's the thing, when I have taken their advice it usually turned out good. But here it's not as simple as "Hey, there's someone I want you to work for because we know them and blah blah blah." That worked, but this other thing isn't quite the same.

The other problem is that when I wanted to meet this person, I wanted it to be very casual and simple. But my folks intervened and the way I see it, they turned it into some grand thing where they talk about futures and all that stuff. Lots of gift-giving by like the second time we hung out. I really wanted them to back off from this woman because although she's nice, and she's definitely the very opposite of my ex in that she works, is sweet, likes to take care of things/people and there are some views I definitely agree with-I'm just not into her. But that's just it, I feel guilty about that because it's like I'm not smart enough to know when a good thing came along. There isn't any kind of spark and when I try to tell my mom I'm not too sure, they lay on the guilt and tell me how this is someone I "need." They say stuff like this person is right for me.

It really does have me doubting myself. They're so zealous about this. Every time I'm told "What about your ex? You want another one like that? Fine! But this one won't do what she did to you!" It's as if there are literally only two kinds of women in the world, and I have no chance at meeting someone who's actually nice and also fits the bill for me. I have my preferences and yet every time I talk to my parents I keep doubting whether or not I have any right to them. Whether or not I'm being some spoiled brat about my expectations. Basically just talking to my mom a few minutes ago and at some point in the conversation she says something along the lines of "We set this up so you could be happy! I know you want to be less serious about this but you two are both at that age now. In a year or two, all the good ones are going to be snatched up and you'll have nowhere to go!" 

See, it wouldn't be such a mess of a situation if my parents just backed off. They introduced me, and that was all they needed to do. I could take it from there, but they had to go nuts and now I feel like I'm leading this person on. But here I am. I know that there will be other opportunities, and other people and more dates. Once I start back at my job and have more steady work, I'll be able to afford to go out and meet people on my terms. That's I think what's at the heart of this entire situation, is that none of this is happening on my terms.

I'm going to start looking for another therapist again. It seems like I'm always in therapy for one thing or another.

[eeks]

Hey eeks,

Here's the thing, when I have taken their advice it usually turned out good. But here it's not as simple as "Hey, there's someone I want you to work for because we know them and blah blah blah." That worked, but this other thing isn't quite the same.

OK.  For many years, my parents tried to control me, not because their "way" made them fulfilled or successful, but strictly out of fear, and (bizarre) assumptions that life IS and people ARE exactly as they experienced them growing up, and despite "wanting a better life for me than they had" their assumptions about how life IS and people ARE, and therefore what was reasonable to expect out of life, took over.  This held true both in career and relationship "advice".

So, maybe your parents know about work but not love.  Fair enough.

My concern stands, that what they are saying to you sounds intrusive, illogical (as you point out - "they think there are only two kinds of women" and fear-based.

I repeat one of the concepts from the ... .Controlling Parents book, that controlling parents do not allow their adolescent children to "leave home" emotionally.  Your parents' "style" of trying to convince you of "important information that you are overlooking in this decision!" reminds me of my mother's, although she more artfully conceals her fear in "reason".

My opinion?  Parents don't have the right to dictate their children's relationship choices.  When they're the one that has to have sex with that person and spend (potentially) the rest of their life with them, then they'll have the right to choose.  And, like my mother, your parents use your (what they are interpreting as) "struggles/failures" (with the pwBPD gf) as an excuse to take over and make your decisions for you.

I think the issue is that if they were to stop trying to control you, they'd have to face the fact that they cannot control life.   That residual feeling from their unresolved trauma (remember, trauma can be developmental, not necessarily abuse or loss)

[eeks]

whoops, had some cut and paste issues there.  revised reply in a bit.

[eeks]

Re "spoiled brat", I notice the same pattern in my family of an attempt to dictate expectations.  My mother's attempt to make her expectations match reality, was not really Buddhist or Stoic, but involved resignation and dissociation from her own emotions.  People who do this or variations on it, especially those who are bitter that they had to give up on their dreams, have great difficulty allowing others to feel passion/desire and go after it, they are the ones likely to make the shaming comments like "spoiled brat". 

There's nothing wrong with wanting something, even something you'll never have, if you just accept that you desire it.   And holding yourself back from pursuing fulfillment doesn't do anything to help all the people in the world who get beaten and starved by their parents and are forced into sexless, oppressive arranged marriages.  (... .what sarcasm?) 

I'm concerned that this moralistic tone (which you do hear people using a fair bit) is not in fact an attitude of being grateful for what one has, but a way that some people rationalize to themselves quietly accepting the status quo, not rocking the boat.  And if they saw someone else rocking the boat... .whooa boy... .gotta put a stop to that, because otherwise they'd have to face their own grief (at lost innocence, giving up on dreams, etc. etc.) 

This discussion also reminds me of something that happened nearly 10 years ago.  I was being pursued by a man several years older than me, who I was not physically attracted to (and in this case I would say he was objectively not attractive), I only went out with him because I had just ended things with someone who was verbally abusive to me when I would not have sex with him after 5 dates, so I thought "what could it hurt to let the 'nice guy' take me out to dinner". 

I didn't know what codependency was at the time, but I do now, and looking back he was the most codependent person I have ever met.  I knew something was "off", though.  He took me out to expensive dinners and bought me gifts (which I tried to refuse) even though I had told him I wasn't attracted to him.  (I was more blunt in my verbal expressions then, but was not firm enough in saying "no, don't do this anymore, I won't see you, I'm not interested".)

I saw him as "someone whose generosity could be taken advantage of", and I heard in his descriptions of past relationships that women did just that (and then blame him for it later), but I thought to myself... ."I see that I could walk all over him, but... .I don't want to".  I thought that would get boring, fast.  As I said, I didn't give him a definitive "no" as soon as I should, but I got a job in another city and used the move as a convenient reason to cut off contact with him. 

Ohh, but my mother and sister!  (my sister was 21 at the time, and had barely any relationship experience, I don't know where she got this pontificating tone from)  Imagine two women with sped-up voices nattering at you so that you can barely make out individual words or sentences, but when you can it's like "He was so good to you," "He's the kind of boyfriend every girl wants!" (that was my sister, my response was, "Fine then, you date him!"  I knew she wouldn't, that's why I said it)

On another occasion during a phone conversation with my mother, I said "He looks like a combination of [my father] and [my maternal grandfather]" and she said, ":)on't let that ruin it for you!"  (I thought, "there's nothing there to ruin!"

I said "I'm not physically attracted to him" and she said "People used to get married for companionship".  I challenged her on that comment, years later.  She said, "I didn't actually expect you to do that".  I said, "then why was it a direct response to what I said about not being attracted to him?"  Do you see what I mean about my mother disguising her control in "reason"?  Why would that comment need to come up at that time? 

No, you see, I think it is pretty simple, they got excited about this man because they perceived him as "willing to take care of me" (financially and otherwise).  I find it rather disturbing that they did not see the flip side of that.  I also think that this was the kind of man my mother wanted.  Mostly in her marriage she is the "giver" (co-dependent) and my dad is the "taker" (narcissistic traits), so this seemed to her like a sweet deal.  The problem is, I think she has treated my life as a sort of a "do-over" for her.  A "don't make the same mistakes I made".  Aside from the obvious problem (I am not her, have not had the same experiences and do not want all the same things), she has tried to steer or nudge my life choices in particular directions when there was no evidence, absolutely none, that I was at anything even remotely close to a risk of "making the same mistakes she made".  (did I make my point clear there about how much risk there wasn't?  hehe)

I also noticed that my friends' opinions were sharply divided by gender.  The female friends, "Oh, my best friend Heather's husband wasn't her type at first,"  "attraction can develop over time", you know that faux-sweet beatific tone when women give advice.  The guys, "Why is your mother trying to marry you off?"

I won't say what's happened in the meantime in my dating life, because it's depressing, but I will say that if I had married this man it would be worse, far worse.

There's another "theme" I notice in how your parents talk to you and how you then talk to yourself... .as though the dangers and risks in life can all be eliminated through rational thought and careful planning.  What a seductive poison that is.  Don't drink it. 

[eeks]

I also have to say, in the interests of presenting a balanced opinion, that what your parents say has at least some validity as a general principle.  In the sense of, deciding what your must-haves are in a mate, and when you find a woman with those characteristics, hang on to her.  However, as it is, their communication of it to you is so saturated in their own biases and fears that it's not useful. 

There's doing the right thing for the right reasons, vs. doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. 

The "right reasons" would include knowing yourself and what's important to you, and the decision of priorities in a partner comes from the inside out.  "The wrong reasons" would be because somebody scared you into it, self-doubting and second-guessing, when the "right decision" ends up being a sort of "correct-looking" veneer over a self and emotions and core impulses (I mean here not "impulsive" like in BPD, but impulses rooted in your own life energy) you don't really yet know well, and so it is bound to fall apart at some point.

I believe this could be behind much of your mental machinations and second-guessing and often feeling that you "need to justify yourself and your choices".  You haven't separated from your parents.  That's not a criticism, it's true of me as well.  It's not an image of you childishly clinging to their ankles as they try to kick you off and tell you to go live on your own.  That's what I thought when my therapist said it to me.  It's more like they didn't allow you to separate.

[Vatz]

I also have to say, in the interests of presenting a balanced opinion, that what your parents say has at least some validity as a general principle.  In the sense of, deciding what your must-haves are in a mate, and when you find a woman with those characteristics, hang on to her.  However, as it is, their communication of it to you is so saturated in their own biases and fears that it's not useful.  

You're right actually, which is what makes this entire situation difficult. I get what you're saying, and I'm not arguing whether some of what they say is right or true. Chances are, this person will probably take care of me. They'd make a suitable partner in terms of "life." But they aren't quite what I'm looking for so it wouldn't make a good fit, I think.

Jumping in just because this person is such and such, or nice or so and so just seems like a bad idea. Knowing what my parents went through helps me understand where some of their anxiety about this is coming from. But it's hard to be objective with yourself when all they do is throw fear at you, and that's where I wonder if maybe I'm just wrong. Anyway, it all circles back to what you said earlier. I end up not feeling competent to make my own decisions because I'm basically not allowed to make my own mistakes in a way. Even though that's exactly what I did with my ex. I told my mom "let me make my own mistakes." But now she just brings it up literally every single time we talk about this issue, which is getting exhausting. It's like she's saying "Okay, I let you make your mistake. You FAILED so now you'd better listen to me."

If I were a stronger, more independent and more self-assured person, I would say "Nope." I'd move on and I'd continue my life and keep looking at my options. Even if it was the wrong decision, it would be mine to make. I'd still be secure in knowing I made it because it is what I wanted, or didn't want.

I'm not there yet. I guess it's kind of like dogs. If you're really anxious about something, they'll be anxious too. My parents are scared and maybe some of that fear found its way over here.

My therapist that I used to go to told me I held myself responsible for things that were never really my fault. Also that I seemed to have a lot of misplaced guilt regarding parents, relationships, etc. Maybe he's right, and maybe I'm better off stepping away completely. I'm wondering if I'm even ready to bring another person into the mix when I still have so many issues to deal with. I wonder if normal people think about this. I always imagined most people just know what they want, they get out there and do it. Simple as that. I want to be like that. Not thinking, ruminating or wondering about whether something is right, wrong, or beating myself up over my guilt and insecurities. But to just be, and to do whatever I set out to. I envy normal people for that reason.

Thanks for the talk, eeks.