Feeling stuck

[ptilda]

Went to a legal help clinic today and while they were nice and helpful, basically they said there's nothing I can do to try to get us into counseling without his consent. I expected that, but took the advice of others and looked into it.

uBPDh checks in every day. Looks for ways to get together. He's actually very patient (relatively speaking) and is being kind. He tells me he loves me BUT because of all the things I did he "has to take his decision." He tells others he wants to be back with me but doesn't know how. He tells people he's to proud to admit he's wrong.

And now I mentioned I'm going to Montreal Canada in October for a few days and asked of he wanted to come and he is considering it.

But he won't stop the divorce!

What am I waiting for? Is there any hope or am I just being foolish?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[married21years]

leaving the divorce running is leverage on you

he knows it triggers you!

[sweetheart]

Hi ptilda,

There's a poster on here MaroonLiquid who found himself in a situation where he is now living separately from his wife and she is also asking/threatening a divorce. Their situation has been going on for about 13 months and what he has learned in this time is how to manage himself better during the push/pull dynamics.

The reason I mention it is that there is perhaps there is much to be gained in how MaroonLiquid has learnt to deal with the issue of a divorce for him whilst realising he cannot stop his w divorcing him.

You can state that you hear what your h is saying and divorce is not what you want. This after all is your reality.

It is positive that he is in regular contact and doesn't sound triggered.

[MaroonLiquid]

What I have learned is that my wife used divorce originally to keep me in conflict with her.  What happened was the opposite as I called her bluff (knew she didn't want it) and she has backed herself in a corner because of it.  I refuse to discuss it and have since Day 1 about 4 months ago.  I have set a hard boundary with her about it and she doesn't like it.  She LOVES conflict.  She hadn't brought it up in about a month until a few days ago when she started hanging around an old friend who is going through a very rough time in her marriage.  She has been going through a dificult time with her husband for a long time.  I do feel bad for that woman, but instead of my wife just being a comfort to her, she is mirroring her pain and suffering and trying to put that on me.  She hates that I won't be involved in her conflict any longer.  It's hard to go through this, but I had to come to the realization that it's not what my wife truly wants deep down, but it's the only way she can cope with the pain of what she has caused.  The sad thing is, I have already forgiven her for her part of the relationship and want to move forward.  She is still in sabotage mode.  Not near as much as she used to be, but enough that she can't move forward toward a healthier place for herself and us.

[ptilda]

leaving the divorce running is leverage on you

he knows it triggers you!

I've never reacted to it, so I doubt that.

[ptilda]

What I have learned is that my wife used divorce originally to keep me in conflict with her.  What happened was the opposite as I called her bluff (knew she didn't want it) and she has backed herself in a corner because of it.  I refuse to discuss it and have since Day 1 about 4 months ago.  I have set a hard boundary with her about it and she doesn't like it.  She LOVES conflict.  She hadn't brought it up in about a month until a few days ago when she started hanging around an old friend who is going through a very rough time in her marriage.  She has been going through a dificult time with her husband for a long time.  I do feel bad for that woman, but instead of my wife just being a comfort to her, she is mirroring her pain and suffering and trying to put that on me.  She hates that I won't be involved in her conflict any longer.  It's hard to go through this, but I had to come to the realization that it's not what my wife truly wants deep down, but it's the only way she can cope with the pain of what she has caused.  The sad thing is, I have already forgiven her for her part of the relationship and want to move forward.  She is still in sabotage mode.  Not near as much as she used to be, but enough that she can't move forward toward a healthier place for herself and us.

So how do you ignore it and still respond as required?

[formflier]

leaving the divorce running is leverage on you

he knows it triggers you!

I've never reacted to it, so I doubt that.

The reality... .or "your version"  is only one side of this.  If he believes there is some use to having this leverage... .that is what matters.

You are in a bit of a pickle... .because trying to talk him out of his version of reality is invalidating... .or could be... .invalidating to him.

Here is the thing that I see in ptildas story... .that is a bit of a nuance (or possibly bigger) that Maroon's situation. (but I agree... .they are broadly similar).


1.  Culture.  I suspect this is a "double down" aspect of this.  He painted a black picture in his mind of ptilda.  Realizes that is wrong... .and has no idea how to get out of that in a health manner.  (I'm not familiar with Haitian culture... .so I'm going on what I've read here).

2.  Ptilda doesn't have to feel triggered.  What matters is that he believes he "got her"... .or is "showing her" something.


Anyone have ideas how to help ptilda sort out the cultural side of this... .or connect the cultural side to the BPD traits?


Ptilda,

Keep doing your best to keep the communication flowing... .validating... .don't take bait.

FF

[ptilda]

He made plans to come by today to record things for my graduate research. He didn't need my help, but I agreed because I know he's looking for reasons to be around me. Then he forgot the paper and insisted that reading it off of my computer screen would not work, so he rescheduled for tomorrow.

He asked if I got the date. I played dumb and asked "what date?" He said, "The date for the thing I sent you?" I said, "I'm not sure what you're talking about." He choked out, "the divorce." I said, "I got it." That was that. He looked but I gave him nothing.

Then he asked how I was doing on money. I said I'm working on making my rent (technically he should be paying part of the rent here since he signed a 2 year lease and insisted that we do it for that length, but I didn't breathe a word about that). He said, "can I give you some money just for you?" He gave me $40 which I know is a lot for him since he's not working really now. He also said hopefully in September he can help with rent.

The most awkward goodbye in the elevator, he came forward to what I thought was a traditional Haitian cheek-kiss, and it was a weird hug and I hit his neck with the kiss. But he initiated the physical contact for the first time in months.

I'm so pulled. I KNOW he doesn't want to divorce, but he's so friggin stupid and refuses to back down, insisting that he can't stop it.

Cultural stuff? Yeah, I'm trying to understand, and I'm actually quite knowledgeable. But much of our problem is that he REFUSES to realize that there are cultural differences. Nothing I can do when he insists that "it's not a Haitian thing."

[Daniell85]

I feel your frustration.   I am sorry you are going through this. I have some of the same issues and it gets so hard not to show the exasperation, hurt, and upset.

Had a rough day, too. What are you doing to take care of yourself? Anything fun?

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm so pulled. I KNOW he doesn't want to divorce, but he's so friggin stupid and refuses to back down, insisting that he can't stop.

I know how you feel.  My wife is acting the same way.  It's almost like they feel so ashamed that they've done it that it's almost a point of no return.

[ptilda]

I feel your frustration.   I am sorry you are going through this. I have some of the same issues and it gets so hard not to show the exasperation, hurt, and upset.

Had a rough day, too. What are you doing to take care of yourself? Anything fun?

I've been sick for basically a month. Fun is not an option at this point.

[babyducks]

Hi ptilda,

what I have come to believe is true for me, based on my experience with my partner,  is there is something inherently tenuous about these relationships.   maybe that's just me.  I dunno.

sometimes I wonder if it would be this way if I was in a relationship with someone with any other serious illness, like cancer.   Would I spend time wondering about medical decisions, would I fret about diet choices,   would I worry about remissions and reoccurrences.   and knowing me I likely would.

for me, when I first entered this r/s I thought I had found something magical, something just for me, something perfect.   The honeymoon stage with a pwBPD is pretty freaking amazing and I soaked up the idealization like a sponge.

and then reality set in.   and I had to accept that the person I chose had a serious illness.  and that serious illness had ramifications.   quite honestly accepting that was very hard.    it turned my world on it's head for a long time.   so many things were not what they seemed.

now I know the practical reality is that life with her is precarious.   and to a degree probably always will be.   since my partner is both bipolar and BPD, there is a very real chance that she could decided in a bout of mania to donate all her savings to a certain political candidate because the world will end if she doesn't.   I can try to be prepared for that.   I can try to manage that should it happen.  It is after all, what I signed up for.

acceptance is hard.   there are so many things that I love and cherish in my partner.  and equally many things that she sees vastly differently than I do.    I know where my lines are.  Its very hard being in a r/s with a mentally ill person.   In a different way than in being in a r/s with a person with cancer.   I think maybe if I was with some one with cancer I would have to get to the point of saying, if she dies of this disease I will hurt, I will suffer, but I will be okay.   With a person with a mental illness it feels like to me, I needed to get to the point of saying, I accept there is the possibility that she might reach the point of loosing her reason completely and I can still love her without having that impact me.   maybe that's just me.   I dunno.

I appreciate how frustrated you are.  I swear I really do.  I can't tell you how many times I've been there.  Thinking why can't she change her freaking feelings about XYZ when they are so clearly detrimental, and causing her so many bloody problems.   And then I think, or rather try to, how hard is to change my feelings about anything.  How hard is to change my feelings about the smell of lavender wafting in the window in the morning.  How I feel about watching them tear down the old historic building down the block from me.  Those are small things and modifying my feelings about them requires real effort.   Maybe I can be a little more generous in terms of what I expect my partner to change.

I know you truly want to reconcile to with your husband.  I hope he can reach that place and join you.

'ducks

[Cole]

I'm so pulled. I KNOW he doesn't want to divorce, but he's so friggin stupid and refuses to back down, insisting that he can't stop it.

Let me throw out two possibilities based on common BPD traits.

1. Inflexibility is common with BPD. He does not want a divorce, but also does not know how to back out and save face.  

2. People with BPD have major core shame issues. A divorce will be painful for him and it is a form of self punishment.  

It sounds like neither of you wants a divorce. I do hope you can work things out.

[ptilda]

There are some positive developments. He is checking up on me every day. He's finding any excuse to be there for me, even agreeing to go to the wake of my pastor's wife and my mentor and close friend tomorrow. He has avoided everyone at that church for a long time because they knew what he did (he admitted to them before he started to fabricate his alternate reality where I was the abuser).

He's also being super serious about doing a Bible study with a Haitian pastor each week, and it sounds like it's more discipleship one-on-one than a group Bible study. This is huge because it's the closest thing he's gotten to counseling, and sounds like there is a mentor-ship relationship happening there.

If he can just start to see that there are alternatives to divorce, we can start to move past. He is most certainly regretting his decision to file, but his stubbornness is just digging him deeper.

[MaroonLiquid]

1. Inflexibility is common with BPD. He does not want a divorce, but also does not know how to back out and save face.  

I believe with my wife being high-functioning, this is where she is.  She doesn't like to "look like a liar".  If she backs out, she feels like she would look "bad" to people.  She hates looking bad or incompetent.  

[ptilda]

Yeah. His big focus now is being my savior. If I need something he goes out of his way to get it or do it for me. But refuses to let me do anything for him. Well not anything. But he won't accept anything from me. He thinks it's a way for me to control him.

So how to break past this? How does it become safe for him to cancel the divorce?

[Daniell85]

I run into this a lot with my boyfriend. He does some big declaration against me and then won't back out of it. Like the blocking on social sites. I am kind of in the same situation as Ptilda, but mine will "allow" me to get back into his good graces. While he keeps on doing the problem behavior that led to the "stuck" situation in the first place.

I am kind of resentful to the point that I am refusing to interact with him under the conditions he is presenting.

But. The issue of shame. I am curious how to get around it, too. I have not been very good about "blaming". I tell him point blank that I saw the lie, the let down, the cheat... whatever. There was some insight I got today from another post about why BPD lie so much. They think its life or death! Saving themselves is not wrong, so a lie isn't wrong!

Sigh.

Would someone chime in about the shame stuff? For a BPD to be entrenched and painted themselves into a corner... how do you get them back out of it?

[babyducks]

So how to break past this? How does it become safe for him to cancel the divorce?

Hi ptilda

I love you, go away. 

I found engulfment fears very difficult and hard to understand.   That with the shame and the cognitive instability can create a thick FOG.   Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

You have come a long way in a short time.  How long has it been since you joined, a couple of months?   

What it sounds like you are describing is he is still feeling his way, still testing.  You offered the trip to Montreal and he is thinking about it. 

All you can do is create an environment that is safe for him to come and express himself with very low expectations for now.   For now being the key words.   

It appears to me that the best you can do is to continue to offer him opportunities to come and do what he feels comfortable with, allowing him to relax a little more.   It takes a pwBPD longer to return to baseline.   You guys have been through a lot.   

keep staying your course.   try to be patient.   

'ducks

[babyducks]

Would someone chime in about the shame stuff? For a BPD to be entrenched and painted themselves into a corner... how do you get them back out of it?

Hi Daniell85

You don't get them out of it.

It's not your job to get them out of problems they create.   doesn't it feel a little enabling when you try?

You can validate that they have confusing feelings.   You can help brainstorm solutions.  You can tell them how you feel and what would work for you.   

I have had success with the formula When _____ happened/happens I feel _______ so I will__________.

for me it looks like this.  When we have a disagreement about how much time I spend on the computer I feel very uncomfortable about my usage being monitored.   I will be sensitive to your feelings of being ignored still I need to work on the laptop about an hour a day.

once I express my feelings/wants I just go do it.   my partners reactions are important to me.  I understand her and what her reactions are going to be.   I don't twist myself into a pretzel trying to accommodate her.  I will bend.   It's a fine line.  speaking only for me I would be careful of

but mine will "allow" me to get back into his good graces. While he keeps on doing the problem behavior that led to the "stuck" situation in the first place.

does that make sense ?

'ducks

[ptilda]

I think I joined a couple of months ago. Huge regrets that I didn't know about BPD and this site long ago. But live and learn.

Hubby went to the funeral of my mentor and wife of one of my pastors today. He came to the house early with his clothes and an iron . . . not sure why he chose to bring it over here other than more opportunity to be with me in domestic settings.

I walked out to take a peek at the piles of boxes our new neighbors have stacked on their part of the balcony, and when I came back in he was totally naked in our kitchen. OK! Haha. I'm pretty sure he is trying to get a reaction from me. But it's a fun game that I don't mind in the least!

At the funeral he sat close to me and was cordial with my (female) friend I introduced him to. He even let me slip my hand into his for most of the 2 hour service and he held on willingly. That's the most physical interaction we've had. He left a bit early to finish his assignments before class and said, "we'll talk."

It's these little moves I have to count as victory.

A friend who is also dealing with a husband with some issues (she also fights extreme jealousy) recommended I go see War Room. I am a Christian and a firm believer in prayer. I am thinking of asking hubby if he will go with me, telling him I don't want to go alone (truth). We'll see.

One thing I think is important to remember is as the Bible says, we're not fighting flesh and blood, but angels, principalities, and powers of darkness that try to rise up against the knowledge of God. In Christ we will overcome.

Sermon is done. Go in peace!