"I'm a bad person"

[LostGhost]

Just wondering if anyone else's ex used to say this? Mine has said it on both of the occasions that our relationship ended, both times hyperventilating. And I'm usually distraught and crying in bewilderment. And nothing you can say brings them out of this. She would just keep repeating it in addition to something like "I hate bullies and abusive people. And that's what I am. I'm a bad person! I should just die!"

I thought pwBPD are fond of projection so wouldn't it make more sense for her to call me a bad person instead? What was this all about? Was she really actually seeing in that moment the hurt and pain she causes to other people? The guilt and shame then becomes overwhelming so they run as fast and far as they can away from you to a replacement to soothe? Which seems counterproductive because they're only engaging in the same cycle and behaviours that made them feel like a "bad person" in the first place.

I don't believe in my heart she's a bad person. Just a good person, with a good heart but a disordered mind who makes disordered decisions that hurt people and cause collateral damage.

[Lifewriter16]

Hi LostGhost,

My BPDxbf believed he was evil, unworthy of love and undeserving of even of life. He struggled with suicidal thoughts. He would project onto me and be hostile, but later, when he calmed down and realised what he had done, he would punish himself mercilessly.

Exploring Schema Therapy might help you understand this dynamic. I'm a novice and have been desperately trying to understand it as my BPDxbf has been undertaking this therapy. The idea behind Schema Therapy, as I understand it, is that we all approach life with a set of schemas that help us understand the world. These schemas develop during childhood and are reasonably resistant to change. They are mediated though modes of action, different patterns of behaviour. We tend to use these modes automatically and without thinking because they are driven by the underlying schemas that are rarely consciously. Where these work for us, there's no problem, but where they are counterproductive, all sorts of problems result. There are modes that involve relating to the world in a childlike manner and modes that involve us relating to the world in defensive even hostile ways. There is a particularly nasty one called the punitive parent, that bullies the person with BPD mercilessly telling them they are evil, bad people, do not deserve to live etc. Your ex is moving from mode to mode. When she blames herself, the internal punitive parent is focusing upon her. When she blames you, she is projecting the punitive parent outside herself and mistaking you for it. She thus thinks you believe everything her punitive parent tells her is true about herself.

Well, it's something like that... .perhaps someone else can lend a bit more clarity to this situation.

Love Lifewriter

x

[TheRealJongoBong]

Every now and then my uBPDw has periods where she understands that she's a bully and abusive, and she feels bad about it. She then gives the usual statements about how she knows it's wrong and she's going to stop doing it. Unfortunately these periods of lucidness generally only last an hour or two and then it's back to the same old thing of blaming others for all things wrong. I think that while she can briefly see the problem, her fear to not be in control, to not be wrong kicks in and obliterates that insight. Frequently she is slightly worse after having one of these insights, as if to make up for that "bad behavior" that scares her.

[LostGhost]

Hi LostGhost,

My BPDxbf believed he was evil, unworthy of love and undeserving of even of life. He struggled with suicidal thoughts. He would project onto me and be hostile, but later, when he calmed down and realised what he had done, he would punish himself mercilessly.

Exploring Schema Therapy might help you understand this dynamic. I'm a novice and have been desperately trying to understand it as my BPDxbf has been undertaking this therapy. The idea behind Schema Therapy, as I understand it, is that we all approach life with a set of schemas that help us understand the world. These schemas develop during childhood and are reasonably resistant to change. They are mediated though modes of action, different patterns of behaviour. We tend to use these modes automatically and without thinking because they are driven by the underlying schemas that are rarely consciously. Where these work for us, there's no problem, but where they are counterproductive, all sorts of problems result. There are modes that involve relating to the world in a childlike manner and modes that involve us relating to the world in defensive even hostile ways. There is a particularly nasty one called the punitive parent, that bullies the person with BPD mercilessly telling them they are evil, bad people, do not deserve to live etc. Your ex is moving from mode to mode. When she blames herself, the internal punitive parent is focusing upon her. When she blames you, she is projecting the punitive parent outside herself and mistaking you for it. She thus thinks you believe everything her punitive parent tells her is true about herself.

Well, it's something like that... .perhaps someone else can lend a bit more clarity to this situation.

Love Lifewriter

x

Wow that sounds interesting. I'll definitely try to read up on more information about these schemas. Thanks for sharing that info with me. I've never heard about them before.

[LostGhost]

Every now and then my uBPDw has periods where she understands that she's a bully and abusive, and she feels bad about it. She then gives the usual statements about how she knows it's wrong and she's going to stop doing it. Unfortunately these periods of lucidness generally only last an hour or two and then it's back to the same old thing of blaming others for all things wrong. I think that while she can briefly see the problem, her fear to not be in control, to not be wrong kicks in and obliterates that insight. Frequently she is slightly worse after having one of these insights, as if to make up for that "bad behavior" that scares her.

That sounds about right to me as well. Her fear impulses govern her every action. I've only observed her really crying and breaking down and uttering these statements at the end of our relationship both times. Usually I think there's an underlying belief in her that she's a "bad person" but it rarely manifests until she's cornered with the realization that her actions and behaviours are truly hurtful.

[pallavirajsinghani]

LostGhost:  This statement is an invitation for you to soothe her, comfort her, build her up again, put her on a pedestal, convince her that she is not evil and that she is loveable etc.

Since the BPD sufferer has no sense of self per se, they need this just to survive.

Not just an invitation... .it is a downright manipulation... .I think.  Damned if you agree with her and Damned if you don't.  If you agree with her that she is a bad person indeed, then the resultant fury or depths of depression may follow... .if you don't agree with her and build her up again, then you are in a way lying.

Nuances are lost on a BPD sufferer... .fact is that they are not bad people, they are not evil. They are mentally disordered and their disorder has bad effect on the non-disordered individuals who love them/live with them.  This subtlety can be more easily grasped by a non... .

Perhaps, the best way to respond is to bypass the "logic" of the such statements and just address the emotion.  For example, one way to respond would be,  "I am so sorry that you feel that way.  I can see that you are in pain.  I hope that you will feel better soon... ."  Statements like this acknowledge her pain, understand her pain, empathize, without taking responsibility for that pain... .and without offering solutions either.

If the circumstance permits... .you can add "... .when such n such happened to me and I was in extreme pain, counseling helped me... ."   Please DONOT add,  "... .it might help you too... ."

Critiques to my post are welcome... .

[Corgicuddler95]

Yeah a couple of times which she obviously wasn't. I also remember her saying that she was a bad girlfriend a lot, which at the time I don't think was true but in the last couple of months before she broke up with me it was (her unwillingness to leave the house meant she didn't come one of my family members funerals)

[LostGhost]

LostGhost:  This statement is an invitation for you to soothe her, comfort her, build her up again, put her on a pedestal, convince her that she is not evil and that she is loveable etc.

Since the BPD sufferer has no sense of self per se, they need this just to survive.

Not just an invitation... .it is a downright manipulation... .I think.  Damned if you agree with her and Damned if you don't.  If you agree with her that she is a bad person indeed, then the resultant fury or depths of depression may follow... .if you don't agree with her and build her up again, then you are in a way lying.

Nuances are lost on a BPD sufferer... .fact is that they are not bad people, they are not evil. They are mentally disordered and their disorder has bad effect on the non-disordered individuals who love them/live with them.  This subtlety can be more easily grasped by a non... .

Perhaps, the best way to respond is to bypass the "logic" of the such statements and just address the emotion.  For example, one way to respond would be,  "I am so sorry that you feel that way.  I can see that you are in pain.  I hope that you will feel better soon... ."  Statements like this acknowledge her pain, understand her pain, empathize, without taking responsibility for that pain... .and without offering solutions either.

If the circumstance permits... .you can add "... .when such n such happened to me and I was in extreme pain, counseling helped me... ."   Please DONOT add,  "... .it might help you too... ."

Critiques to my post are welcome... .

Thank you pallavirajsinghani. I believe I did try to use SET at the time but she was so dysregulated that it appeared to have no effect. She just kept saying it over and over and also said "All of my previous partners have said I'm abusive, and now you're saying it too! So there comes a point when I have to realize it's me! I'm a bad person!"

I would say things like "I understand you feel that way. I would feel that way too. I do not think you are a bad person, I think people, including you, sometimes make bad decisions that effect other people around us without realizing it".

But her emotions were so high at the time it was going nowhere and she told me to just go, get out. I asked is that really what you want? You want me to walk away from you and everything we've shared in two years? She said yes. And so I went. No contact for 7 days now.

Did I give up too easily? Should I have just stayed? Hugged her without saying a word? I was watching a youtube video where a pwBPD claims she "breaks up with her girlfriend to test her, but her girlfriend understands she doesn't mean it and just stays which is a good thing".

So when my girlfriend said we were done and for me to leave... .was she really testing me to get me to stay? Do not understand.

[TheRealJongoBong]

So when my girlfriend said we were done and for me to leave... .was she really testing me to get me to stay? Do not understand.

I'm afraid my friend that is exactly what's going on. Unless it's different this time.

[LostGhost]

So when my girlfriend said we were done and for me to leave... .was she really testing me to get me to stay? Do not understand.

I'm afraid my friend that is exactly what's going on. Unless it's different this time.

I'm feeling kind of bad about this now. She was actually in a moment of need then and was depending on me to stay, even though she was asking me to leave? And I walked out the door basically fulfilling all of her abandonment fears.   So what happens if I just go over there right now and walk in the door (I have a key). I guess that's a bad idea? Since I walked away, I am painted blackest of black? I kind of feel like I was already being painted black at the end and being pushed away anyways, like this is the result she intended and wanted? Or so I thought?

[TheRealJongoBong]

When she tells you to leave she's playing the "nobody loves me" song in her head and is lashing out. Now, sitting all alone she's playing the "nobody loves me" song and is really believing it. If you show up out of the blue, one of two things will happen. Your appearance showing you care will be louder than her song and she will be very happy to see you. Or, your appearance will just remind her that you left her to her terrors and she will hate the sight of you. It's really impossible to tell which scenario will happen.

Unless you've been painted a permanent black, showing that you care about her will eventually turn her around. So go ahead and go see her, but be prepared for the possible not-so-friendly welcome. Don't get upset if she is, because that will just amplify the whole process. Be patient and she will calm down after a while.

My wife acts in many respects like an abused animal. If I show patience and caring, and I don't react when she knee-jerks the situation because of her fears, then she is a little more trusting. I expect to be tested on the trust issue regularly - I have to be on the ball ALL of the time and NEVER relax around her.

My real question to you is, do you really want to live like that? Do you want to have a partner where you have to analyze everything they say and do, so you can determine the appropriate response to minimize their inappropriate behavior? Do you want to be living with a live hand grenade that WILL go off even if you navigate this maze perfectly?

[OnceConfused]

My real question to you is, do you really want to live like that? Do you want to have a partner where you have to analyze everything they say and do, so you can determine the appropriate response to minimize their inappropriate behavior? Do you want to be living with a live hand grenade that WILL go off even if you navigate this maze perfectly?

My answer to your questions is a simple : NO, I don't want to live like that, always afraid of a hand grenade or a knife on my back.

Everything in our lives is about CHOICES. I chose not to be with XBPDGF, despite the fact that we had good sex, she was good looking. I chose not to live in constant fear. I chose to live free, and not be a doormat.

I chose to have a friend and a partner in life, not a person who abuses me.

Why do I have to choose BPD and all of its headaches, while there are so many other wonderful choices out there. A life partner who makes me smile every time I see her. A life partner who will be there when I am sick and old. A life partner who adores me, who likes to be with me. A life partner who enhances my existence , and not destroys it.

You have to practice the phrase : I CHOOSE ... .over and over again. It is all about our choices, just like BPD chooses to abuse us.

[LostGhost]

When she tells you to leave she's playing the "nobody loves me" song in her head and is lashing out. Now, sitting all alone she's playing the "nobody loves me" song and is really believing it. If you show up out of the blue, one of two things will happen. Your appearance showing you care will be louder than her song and she will be very happy to see you. Or, your appearance will just remind her that you left her to her terrors and she will hate the sight of you. It's really impossible to tell which scenario will happen.

Unless you've been painted a permanent black, showing that you care about her will eventually turn her around. So go ahead and go see her, but be prepared for the possible not-so-friendly welcome. Don't get upset if she is, because that will just amplify the whole process. Be patient and she will calm down after a while.

My wife acts in many respects like an abused animal. If I show patience and caring, and I don't react when she knee-jerks the situation because of her fears, then she is a little more trusting. I expect to be tested on the trust issue regularly - I have to be on the ball ALL of the time and NEVER relax around her.

My real question to you is, do you really want to live like that? Do you want to have a partner where you have to analyze everything they say and do, so you can determine the appropriate response to minimize their inappropriate behavior? Do you want to be living with a live hand grenade that WILL go off even if you navigate this maze perfectly?

A part of me really wants to find out when she's home alone and just walk in the door and show her that I did/do care, that I left because she asked me to. I'd like to tell her that I loved her and still do. And tell her that I'll always be there for her, even when she pushes me away. And then leave the ball in her court and see what happens. She's not the raging type so I wouldn't expect a rage. If it went bad I'd expect more of a "what are you doing here" get back stare. Or "I'm in a relationship with someone else". Both are possibilities I could anticipate and already have prepared for.

I'm honestly feeling stuck, not knowing what my next move should be. 8 days no contact. Do I continue no contact and wait for her on her terms? Or do I walk in the door and tell her I'm not walking away from her/us so easily?

I'm proud of you all for being able to make the choice to walk away. And for finding other happiness in life. I guess I put all my eggs in one basket. I have my hobbies, my few close friends, a good career and all that. But nothing compares. It all seems empty and meaningless. I could disappear from earth today and be ok with that. But walking away from the person I love most on this earth, disordered or not, and leaving it like this? Something just doesn't feel right about it. Like this is an alternate reality that has deviated from the true one and none of it is right.

In a normal relationship when someone says it's over, it's usually over. But from what I'm hearing, in BPD land it's over means "I'm scared of being alone, I don't want to be abandoned but I don't want to be engulfed, get away, don't leave me"?

I can remain no contact. Or I can meet her face to face. Those are my options to consider.

[shatra]

Lifewriter wrote

the punitive parent, that bullies the person with BPD mercilessly telling them they are evil, bad people, do not deserve to live etc. Your ex is moving from mode to mode. When she blames herself, the internal punitive parent is focusing upon her. When she blames you, she is projecting the punitive parent outside herself and mistaking you for it. She thus thinks you believe everything her punitive parent tells her is true about herself.

---Yes, they "took in" the punitive parent, so when they punish us they are acting out and treating us as the parent treated them... .when she punishes herself she is treating herself the waythe parent did (splits herself black)... .when she blames the non, she is projecting  out all the "bad" thiings in herself the parent punished her for, and she also sees the non as the bad parent... .she then rages at the non the way she raged (or wanted to) at the bad parent

[LostGhost]

Lifewriter wrote

the punitive parent, that bullies the person with BPD mercilessly telling them they are evil, bad people, do not deserve to live etc. Your ex is moving from mode to mode. When she blames herself, the internal punitive parent is focusing upon her. When she blames you, she is projecting the punitive parent outside herself and mistaking you for it. She thus thinks you believe everything her punitive parent tells her is true about herself.

---Yes, they "took in" the punitive parent, so when they punish us they are acting out and treating us as the parent treated them... .when she punishes herself she is treating herself the waythe parent did (splits herself black)... .when she blames the non, she is projecting  out all the "bad" thiings in herself the parent punished her for, and she also sees the non as the bad parent... .she then rages at the non the way she raged (or wanted to) at the bad parent

I think I'm a slow learner or BPD is radically and vastly complex. Imagine in the course of a heated conversation that I'm supposed to take a deep breath before I speak and say to myself... .ok now... .what's happening here is the punitive parent is manifesting in her and punishing her but she can't take the blame and responsibility because of the overwhelming pain it causes her, so she's projecting it into me thus making me the punitive parent. So now I am painted black and being pushed away... .

No wonder our last conversation didn't go well and I now find myself alone. All I could attempt was a merger SET attempt of "I understand you're feeling like you're a bad person. That must feel truly awful. I think many people would feel the same way... .however... ." BOOM,,, didn't go well  

I probably invalidated, triggered abandonment and engulfment all at once. I was so upset how I was treated like an invisible ghost that night. I didn't want to just bottle it up. I had to tell her how disrespected I felt  but it cost me my relationship. I should have known better.

Thank you for helping me to grasp and understand more of these BPD concepts.

[TheRealJongoBong]

I probably invalidated, triggered abandonment and engulfment all at once. I was so upset how I was treated like an invisible ghost that night. I didn't want to just bottle it up. I had to tell her how disrespected I felt  but it cost me my relationship. I should have known better.

This event seems to be a common feature to many non/BPD relationships.  You can't say how you feel because they will feel threatened. If you say nothing they feel threatened. If you talk about the weather instead they feel threatened because it's not about them. Your only option seems to be only to make comforting noises and nod.

And then they feel threatened because you're not sharing.

[LostGhost]

I probably invalidated, triggered abandonment and engulfment all at once. I was so upset how I was treated like an invisible ghost that night. I didn't want to just bottle it up. I had to tell her how disrespected I felt  but it cost me my relationship. I should have known better.

This event seems to be a common feature to many non/BPD relationships.  You can't say how you feel because they will feel threatened. If you say nothing they feel threatened. If you talk about the weather instead they feel threatened because it's not about them. Your only option seems to be only to make comforting noises and nod.

And then they feel threatened because you're not sharing.

This sums up just about every interaction I had with her when she is disregulated.

How long do dis regulations last typically? Hours, days, weeks? Is that the same as being painted black? And is there a gradual escalation from mind of disregulated to off the charts disregulated? I usually only knew if she's disregulated or I'm painted black when it's gone past the point of no return, and nothing I do or say can make any difference. I see venom in her eyes. What is the best course of action? Walk away for a while? I never knew what to do. Was always afraid if I just walked away or left to gather my boughs, she'd think I'd abandoned her.

Disregulation if that's what I witnessed on the last day, it's spooky. Like you don't exist, they don't even know you. You're worse than a stranger... .because they actually like strangers.

[Svarl1]

Going by what my partner has told me, I get the impression that a person with BPD may well have been made a scapegoat of some kind in their birth family. They may have a deeply ingrained belief that they are a "bad person", because this is what their parents used to treat them like.

Furthermore,  the other relationships in their family may well have been disfunctional.  Growing up,  they might never have been given the example of a fair and reciprocal relationship.  Instead, the relationships may have been abuser/victim,  righteous/problem,  master/slave  etc.

Then the general example becomes "take the upper hand and dominate the other person otherwise they'll do the same to you".

In any case the role of "bad person" appears to have some kind of necessity for the pW BPD.  Either it's them or its you,  or its somebody else.

Sometimes, in response to this kind of thinking, I have made the statement "you're just a person, we're all just people". Something to suggest that it's unnecessary for there to be a "bad person". I've found this kind of statement to normally be received ok.

[apollotech]

Mine has said it on both of the occasions that our relationship ended, both times hyperventilating. And I'm usually distraught and crying in bewilderment. And nothing you can say brings them out of this. She would just keep repeating it in addition to something like "I hate bullies and abusive people. And that's what I am. I'm a bad person! I should just die!"

LG,

That sounds like a victim narrative used to pull you closer. Was abandonment triggered? How did you react, did it draw you closer to her, to soothe her, to tell her that she wasn't a bad person? In contrast, what has been her reaction to this newfound enlightenment about herself, has she made any changes to become a better person? Forget the words, the truth is in the actions.

[LostGhost]

Mine has said it on both of the occasions that our relationship ended, both times hyperventilating. And I'm usually distraught and crying in bewilderment. And nothing you can say brings them out of this. She would just keep repeating it in addition to something like "I hate bullies and abusive people. And that's what I am. I'm a bad person! I should just die!"

LG,

That sounds like a victim narrative used to pull you closer. Was abandonment triggered? How did you react, did it draw you closer to her, to soothe her, to tell her that she wasn't a bad person? In contrast, what has been her reaction to this newfound enlightenment about herself, has she made any changes to become a better person? Forget the words, the truth is in the actions.

Hi Apollo,

Unfortunately this happened after her abandonment fears were triggered. Although at that point, she had already devalued me and had terminated the relationship asking if we could just be friends. I told her no, I would not be disrespected and I could not be just friends with her. That's when she broke down.

I tried to validate, or should I say invalidate the invalid. I used SET. But it was no use. She was too far gone at that point. All I could do is walk away and that's how it's been since.

From what I can tell from a distance, she hasn't made any changes. She appears happy on facebook, posting the same old stuff as always, maybe even more upbeat than when she was in the relationship. So I don't see any turmoil or regrets or anything at the surface level. I know this is likely just an illusion but it doesn't make me feel any better to see.

She's not a bad person. She's a good person with a good heart but her mind works in mysterious ways. I want her back something fierce but I'm committed to try and remain no contact for a while until I am in a good place. I've likely already been replaced anyhow. Maybe next year I will get to try again. I just can't imagine her reaching out to me for any reason at this point. She liked a post of mine on facebook today. That's about the closest to "contact" I've had. I don't consider it much since she throws out likes on pretty much everything on facebook. But at least I'm not blocked? Maybe not completely painted black. Maybe she's just scared to contact me, feeling guilt or shame and paralyzed by it.

[OnceConfused]

Longghost:

Many times in life, we are our own enemy.

You cannot solve the problem with the same mind that created it.

Your mind is still in the attachment mode. That is exactly how BPD keeps us in their web. One moment we are the best person in the world in their eyes and yet the next moment we are the monster. She gave you a like on  your facebook post so that you can now have the slight hope that she has changed for the better and  now is the time to get back. Well, that same mind has not changed, my friend. NOT CHANGED.

The cycle of abuse will continue. The choice is YOURS, not hers. She is who she is,

[apollotech]

Unfortunately this happened after her abandonment fears were triggered. Although at that point, she had already devalued me and had terminated the relationship asking if we could just be friends. I told her no, I would not be disrespected and I could not be just friends with her. That's when she broke down.

Hi LG,

What you experienced from her could very well be an extinction burst, her last-ditch effort to maintain the attachment via her offer of friendship. If that's the case, her saying those things about herself were said to bring you back to some type of relationship; they were said to garner sympathy. That's why I believe that what was said was just another facet of the victim narrative. As you said, even when she has all of this enlightenment about how terrible of a person that she is (her perception), she takes no action to correct her issues. Kudos to you for respecting yourself and standing your ground!