The eternal forgiveness of being

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi family, there is a great deal of anger, bitterness and suffering on this board (understandably). This will be a long post--intending to illustrate the nature of forgiveness, as I perceive it. I hope that it may offer solace to perhaps one of you--in this singular though universal life that we share. 

I have felt your pain--the cutting of the one true heart. For seven years, my young partner and I led a functional life. Prior to that, she was low functioning.  A child of abandonment and sexual abuse--you have heard that story before--but stealing a child’s quintessential spirit ab initio, robs her of inalienable rights. It is gone--girl.

She acts out--terribly since our breach (two-and-one-half years ago), enough to melt a man of steel. Yet am I her victim--when those actions validate the only self that she has ever authentically felt?

Some might label her a slut, a lost cause; worthless (those words have crossed my mind). Yet if desire is the root of all suffering, then clearly perceiving what is invisible to the eye remains essential.  As all things change. To define a meaningful life solely based upon a romantic attachment is a disservice to both parties.  I count my blessings in a plethora of ways. As it has been a lifetime’s work.

However (since the breach), when the drugs ramped up, to such a degree that the disease/ disorder required constant vampiric feeding. The pursuit of dopamine explosions assaulting and twisting  any natural balance, until the new normal was extraterrestrial and savage.  Supporting her arm, tightening the tubing, as the needle seeks its vein-fire. Her eyes resembling sangue de lobo, preternaturally flushing, as the wetness begins to flow forth between her legs. Meth plus BPD, that deranged cocktail conceived by some lunatic deity.  It was too much.

So we parted, ways completely--the first time in 9-years. Time passed. I eventually dated. After many months, she returned. Six months pregnant and still using. An addict with an untreated disorder.  I could not help her. Consequently, she landed herself in jail--testing positive while on probation. A pregnant tweeker using. Her court date is imminent.

Thirty-five days in jail--seven months pregnant waiting for her court date--is this her rock bottom? The other day I received a long letter from her. Much of it is too personal to cite here, and much of it was asking for my legal assistance and advice, which I am capable of providing via delegation. I will include a particular relevant passage:

“I have been very worried about writing this letter to you because I feel that my actions and behavior have chased you away too, for good and forever. The magnification when those words are spoken screams through almost blaringly within these concrete and metal walls making my ears feel like they are going to explode from the pain of that. The years we held, and the regret I hold onto knowing the ways I treated you could have been so much better. The one and only friend I had in this world has sailed away to safer, less turbulent waters leaving me to fight my own battles with my treacherous seas and torrential storms all alone. My boat that I thought would carry me through is cracking. The water is seeping in and pretty soon a boat will be nonexistent.”

That passage might engage a team of shrinks for quite some time. However, those words are simply transitory feelings, and the road ahead for her is long and hard. I know what will happen in her immediate future. She will not be sent to prison for felony shoplifting. She will be court ordered into a very good evidence based in-patient treatment program geared towards pregnant women with substance abuse problems. There, she will carry the baby to term and will remain for a period until housing and vocational opportunities are arranged. She will be given a second chance by the state to pull her life together free from meth—free from the tweekers. To be a mother in the real sense with the first baby that she has ever born.

So I contemplated whether I should respond at all, and what my response should be.  At first notions crossed my mind such as boring, bland and cursory—the routine advice. Then notions regarding a resentful angry reply with a reprimand--put her in her place for all the harm began to sound enticing. I sat on my feelings for a while and tried to mentalize what it must feel like to be her--pregnant in jail, and considered what this woman still means to me.

This was my response:



September 3, 2015

“Hi (my XSO’s name),

I am sure that you want out of jail. Your probation violation arraignment is scheduled for 9/8/15 at 8 a.m. The Director of Social Services for the Law Offices of the Public Defender is working on your case, and your Public Defender contract counsel has been notified about your court date. By the time you receive this you should be aware that there are positive developments in motion.   

I know that things haven’t worked out for you, as you would have liked, but keep your chin up, because you’re a spiritual sensual woman, who lost her way (and there’s a road back). You are mystical, feminine, sexy and bright all wrapped up in a complex maddening bow. Yes, you really are maddeningly complex and I wonder if you still want to waste your time upon simpletons who offer nothing except getting high in squalor and poverty?

A better life awaits you, though the drugs have taken their toll and distracted you from your real journey. I believe your true spiritual calling is geared towards creating meaningful unique works in arts and crafts, and by being the type of mother that you wish you had. I think through those endeavors, the true expression of your soul will shine through.

As for us, perhaps that is a conversation for another day.

I want you to know that deep down inside you are a beautiful person who lost her way. You are not garbage. You are spiritual, deep, complex and funny.

Take care ma belle cherie,

--Conundrum”

As I wrote that letter, I asked myself when tested, is it not appropriate to express kindness and forgiveness? To lift this woman up. She sits like a b___ (no pun intended, sort of) in the pound. Should I kick her when she is down? Will that make me a better man? Will I respect myself more when I look in the mirror? A woman who has helped me raise two very little boys (that were not hers).  To dismiss, dominate, rebuke or control her while she is warehoused in a cage?  No, I chose compassion. Res ispa loquitur—the thing speaks for itself. What is the sine qua non, of being a man? At this point in my life, alpha games mean little to me. In bed, we both enjoy that dark dance. I know who I am. I know my nature, and I know that this woman--albeit highly disordered is my friend and one-time companion. That is enough.

I have another friend--actually, she’s more than a friend but not my partner.  She’s a successful author and wrote a meaningful work of fiction in which the female protagonist is a low functioning individual with BPD. Her fiancé committed suicide about two years ago and hung himself in her childhood home. People come and go out of our lives. This life runs swift, like a river of bone. We can pile resentments high until they fill the attics of our minds. On the other hand, we can find compassion within to forgive the sins of the disturbed. Inevitably, it is a choice, as all things change. What choice will you make? Peace.

Take this kiss upon the brow!

And, in parting from you now,

Thus much let me avow-

You are not wrong, who deem

That my days have been a dream;

Yet if hope has flown away

In a night, or in a day,

In a vision, or in none,

Is it therefore the less gone?

All that we see or seem

Is but a dream within a dream.

Edgar Allan Poe

[Conundrum]

Hi family, there is a great deal of anger, bitterness and suffering on this board (understandably). This will be a long post--intending to illustrate the nature of forgiveness, as I perceive it. I hope that it may offer solace to perhaps one of you--in this singular though universal life that we share. 

I have felt your pain--the cutting of the one true heart. For seven years, my young partner and I led a functional life. Prior to that, she was low functioning.  A child of abandonment and sexual abuse--you have heard that story before--but stealing a child’s quintessential spirit ab initio, robs her of inalienable rights. It is gone--girl.

She acts out--terribly since our breach (two-and-one-half years ago), enough to melt a man of steel. Yet am I her victim--when those actions validate the only self that she has ever authentically felt?

Some might label her a slut, a lost cause; worthless (those words have crossed my mind). Yet if desire is the root of all suffering, then clearly perceiving what is invisible to the eye remains essential.  As all things change. To define a meaningful life solely based upon a romantic attachment is a disservice to both parties.  I count my blessings in a plethora of ways. As it has been a lifetime’s work.

However (since the breach), when the drugs ramped up, to such a degree that the disease/ disorder required constant vampiric feeding. The pursuit of dopamine explosions assaulting and twisting  any natural balance, until the new normal was extraterrestrial and savage.  Supporting her arm, tightening the tubing, as the needle seeks its vein-fire. Her eyes resembling sangue de lobo, preternaturally flushing, as the wetness begins to flow forth between her legs. Meth plus BPD, that deranged cocktail conceived by some lunatic deity.  It was too much.

So we parted, ways completely--the first time in 9-years. Time passed. I eventually dated. After many months, she returned. Six months pregnant and still using. An addict with an untreated disorder.  I could not help her. Consequently, she landed herself in jail--testing positive while on probation. A pregnant tweeker using. Her court date is imminent.

Thirty-five days in jail--seven months pregnant waiting for her court date--is this her rock bottom? The other day I received a long letter from her. Much of it is too personal to cite here, and much of it was asking for my legal assistance and advice, which I am capable of providing via delegation. I will include a particular relevant passage:

“I have been very worried about writing this letter to you because I feel that my actions and behavior have chased you away too, for good and forever. The magnification when those words are spoken screams through almost blaringly within these concrete and metal walls making my ears feel like they are going to explode from the pain of that. The years we held, and the regret I hold onto knowing the ways I treated you could have been so much better. The one and only friend I had in this world has sailed away to safer, less turbulent waters leaving me to fight my own battles with my treacherous seas and torrential storms all alone. My boat that I thought would carry me through is cracking. The water is seeping in and pretty soon a boat will be nonexistent.”

That passage might engage a team of shrinks for quite some time. However, those words are simply transitory feelings, and the road ahead for her is long and hard. I know what will happen in her immediate future. She will not be sent to prison for felony shoplifting. She will be court ordered into a very good evidence based in-patient treatment program geared towards pregnant women with substance abuse problems. There, she will carry the baby to term and will remain for a period until housing and vocational opportunities are arranged. She will be given a second chance by the state to pull her life together free from meth—free from the tweekers. To be a mother in the real sense with the first baby that she has ever born.

So I contemplated whether I should respond at all, and what my response should be.  At first notions crossed my mind such as boring, bland and cursory—the routine advice. Then notions regarding a resentful angry reply with a reprimand--put her in her place for all the harm began to sound enticing. I sat on my feelings for a while and tried to mentalize what it must feel like to be her--pregnant in jail, and considered what this woman still means to me.

This was my response:



September 3, 2015

“Hi (my XSO’s name),

I am sure that you want out of jail. Your probation violation arraignment is scheduled for 9/8/15 at 8 a.m. The Director of Social Services for the Law Offices of the Public Defender is working on your case, and your Public Defender contract counsel has been notified about your court date. By the time you receive this you should be aware that there are positive developments in motion.   

I know that things haven’t worked out for you, as you would have liked, but keep your chin up, because you’re a spiritual sensual woman, who lost her way (and there’s a road back). You are mystical, feminine, sexy and bright all wrapped up in a complex maddening bow. Yes, you really are maddeningly complex and I wonder if you still want to waste your time upon simpletons who offer nothing except getting high in squalor and poverty?

A better life awaits you, though the drugs have taken their toll and distracted you from your real journey. I believe your true spiritual calling is geared towards creating meaningful unique works in arts and crafts, and by being the type of mother that you wish you had. I think through those endeavors, the true expression of your soul will shine through.

As for us, perhaps that is a conversation for another day.

I want you to know that deep down inside you are a beautiful person who lost her way. You are not garbage. You are spiritual, deep, complex and funny.

Take care ma belle cherie,

--Conundrum”

As I wrote that letter, I asked myself when tested, is it not appropriate to express kindness and forgiveness? To lift this woman up. She sits like a b___ (no pun intended, sort of) in the pound. Should I kick her when she is down? Will that make me a better man? Will I respect myself more when I look in the mirror? A woman who has helped me raise two very little boys (that were not hers).  To dismiss, dominate, rebuke or control her while she is warehoused in a cage?  No, I chose compassion. Res ispa loquitur—the thing speaks for itself. What is the sine qua non, of being a man? At this point in my life, alpha games mean little to me. In bed, we both enjoy that dark dance. I know who I am. I know my nature, and I know that this woman--albeit highly disordered is my friend and one-time companion. That is enough.

I have another friend--actually, she’s more than a friend but not my partner.  She’s a successful author and wrote a meaningful work of fiction in which the female protagonist is a low functioning individual with BPD. Her fiancé committed suicide about two years ago and hung himself in her childhood home. People come and go out of our lives. This life runs swift, like a river of bone. We can pile resentments high until they fill the attics of our minds. On the other hand, we can find compassion within to forgive the sins of the disturbed. Inevitably, it is a choice, as all things change. What choice will you make? Peace.

Take this kiss upon the brow!

And, in parting from you now,

Thus much let me avow-

You are not wrong, who deem

That my days have been a dream;

Yet if hope has flown away

In a night, or in a day,

In a vision, or in none,

Is it therefore the less gone?

All that we see or seem

Is but a dream within a dream.

Edgar Allan Poe

[LonelyChild]

Hi,

This is where I'm roughly at as well. My uBPDxgf now has no home (special needs living), no money (she usually has around $10-20 in her account), no income (social welfare), no friends (yes, zero, she's isolated), family of origin pulled away (couldn't handle her problems and behavior anymore). She has prostituted herself and been addicted to drugs for many years (I think she is clean right now).

I used to hate her for all deceits, attacks (both verbal and physical), lies, cheating, all the money, time, hurt, energy and love she cost me. I don't anymore. She never meant for this to happen - she just can't do better than this. I can't help her. I'm afraid she will be gone (by suicide) within a few months. She basically cries for entire days.

Maybe we should be thankful that we got the extremely low-functioning ones. It makes it easier to see the core of the disease. A higher-functioning one is probably as sick, just better at hiding it. The core issues are the same. Seeing it more clearly makes it easier to understand and forgive. I wish both your and mine ex all the best in the world, and I hope they somehow manage to sort things out one day. We cannot help them. On some days I wonder what rock bottom would be for my uBPDxgf. To me, she's fell through rock bottom a hundred times over and managed to make things even worse. Only time will tell, I guess.

Thank you for sharing your story.

[Conundrum]

Lonely Child, I have followed your story. I can feel through your words the weight of the world you carry upon your shoulders. Her mortality is not your obligation. Her destiny is her own. As painful as the fear of suicide is... .it is her life path to decide and you will never be responsible for that choice. Yes, you can help her, but responsibly and professionally. When you get sucked into her rabbit hole--well you know how that goes. I know you love her. Provide what is reasonable and give the rest up to G-d.

[Infern0]

There really isn't much to be angry about long term when you get clear of these relationships.

Once you identify why you tolerated poor treatment and fix those issues you'll find the anger fades.

I certainly feel sorry for my BPD, she can't make a meaningful connection with another human being, she can only have casual sex and be used by guys, have "fake relationships" with guys she has no real feelings forbut pretends to, or if she does find a decent guy like me or one of her other exes who she does connect to and have feelings for, she must self sabotage and run away.

She can't control this, she admitted it to me, and admitted that it makes her sad every day. The BPD ruins her life, she can't hold a job, she can't stay in college for more than a month, she's done damage to internal organs through annorexia, made herself infertile.

I fear too that mine will be gone one day (suicide). I think she has a few years yet, but she's getting to the point where her parents won't bail her out much anymore, and when she loses this job a big crash is going to happen. She's running out of friends too, and pushed me away again.



You look at it and she's got it so much worse than i do, my life isn't so bad, my mind is calm these days and i've recovered from most of my codependency, and am sorting through other minor issues, but i'm self aware and healing all my core trauma, something she can't even begin to do.

I'm sad for her and i really hope somehow she gets into DBT, maybe one day it'll happen

[jhkbuzz]

What a beautiful, eloquent and insightful post! I am so very glad that you chose mercy over judgment in your letter; it was uplifting to read.

"What choice will you make? Peace."

Yes.

[apollotech]

Conundrum,

Forgiveness is the only path that frees all parties. You made the right choice for your future and hers as well.

[HappyNihilist]

Thank you so much for sharing this beautiful, insightful, eloquent post, Conundrum.

I was incredibly touched and inspired. You show that there is great strength in compassion and kindness.

Thank you for sharing your thought process behind your response to your ex, and how you so carefully thought about the best possible response for both of you. Acknowledging and then sitting with your initial thoughts and feelings.

I just wanted to highlight a few things from this lovely post.

To define a meaningful life solely based upon a romantic attachment is a disservice to both parties. 

I asked myself when tested, is it not appropriate to express kindness and forgiveness?

Should I kick her when she is down? Will that make me a better man? Will I respect myself more when I look in the mirror? A woman who has helped me raise two very little boys (that were not hers).  To dismiss, dominate, rebuke or control her while she is warehoused in a cage?  No, I chose compassion.

Res ispa loquitur—the thing speaks for itself.

People come and go out of our lives. This life runs swift, like a river of bone. We can pile resentments high until they fill the attics of our minds. On the other hand, we can find compassion within to forgive the sins of the disturbed. Inevitably, it is a choice, as all things change. What choice will you make? Peace.

Again, thank you for sharing and for being an inspiration.

I'm so glad you're in this place with yourself. You have so much to be proud of.

[JQ]

Hello Conundrum,

What an amazing piece ... .incredibly insightful, thought provoking that is worthy of all of us to again look inward and self reflect not only on the BPD r/s we have or have had but of ourselves and who we really are at out core. I found this place looking for answers to try & understand this condition my exBPDgf told me her therapist diagnosed her with. I walk this fine walled fence to stay or go everyday learning from others, reading of books, talking to a educated therapist of what my life will be like if I choose to stay or like some decide to leave. Your words are truly words of wisdom that has polished another facet of this BPD stone to reflect back on me.

A child of abandonment and sexual abuse--you have heard that story before--but stealing a child’s quintessential spirit ab initio, robs her of inalienable rights. It is gone--girl.

My exBPDgf was a child of abandonment, emotional & sexual abuse for years by her older brother. She was a child of mental, physical & emotional abuse by an older sister ... .both stoled the innocents of this child ... .Innocents once stolen from a child not even of age to attend her first school year will never ever be able to be returned. Then to suffer horrors for years to come ... .how can it not damage someone to the core of their sole ... .how would any of us react to such barbaric acts if they were done to us by those we we're suppose to trust ... .someone we called brother ... .someone we called sister.

She acts out--terribly since our breach (two-and-one-half years ago), enough to melt a man of steel. Yet am I her victim--when those actions validate the only self that she has ever authentically felt?

I read this and realized that maybe she acted out even more since your breach because of the overwhelming fear of abandonment that they have. The closer we became, the more we shared ... .the more she acted out ... .THE MORE SHE RAGED!   At first being naive and uneducated I took her rage personal, I felt every deep cut to the bone when she lashed out at me. In my pursuit to understand her, my desire to repair what I thought i had done or said I read book after book, talked to a therapist who counseled me ... .and I found this place to talk to others who had or were experiencing were the same. What I learned is the more we became closer ... .the more we shared ... .the more she lashed out. At first I took it as an personal attack for what I said or did or didn't say or didn't do as I'm sure we all have ... ."Why are you mad/angry/upset/yelling/raging/physical with me?  What I learned was that she had started to trust me, she trusted someone, for the first time in her life she trusted someone to tell her story ... .open up to someone she knew actually cared for her ... .knew someone actually loved her for her ... .not for sex ... .not as a toy to be tossed to the side when finished with her.

Some might label her a slut, a lost cause; worthless (those words have crossed my mind). Yet if desire is the root of all suffering, then clearly perceiving what is invisible to the eye remains essential.  As all things change. To define a meaningful life solely based upon a romantic attachment is a disservice to both parties.  I count my blessings in a plethora of ways. As it has been a lifetime’s work.   Those words have crossed my mind as well for my exBPDgf ... .but then I remember her childhood and look myself in the mirror and ask myself, "Who am I to judge her?"   Her soul has been damaged ... .yes beyond my ability to repair it by myself. If I choose to go forward I know that it will be a collaborated effort between her, me & her therapist and it will most likely to last the rest of our lives. I cannot change what has happen to her ... .but I can decide if I want to be a part of her life going forward helping in some small way to give her life & soul some peace, to show her everyday that someone actually does love you for you. Looking inward at myself ... .I ask myself am I strong enough to face the challenges with her? She has trusted me to share a portion of her darkness she lives everyday ... .no one here would judge me either way. However, my "friends", my "family" would pass judgement not only on me but on her and that I could not have. Some of them ... .most of them are small minded simpletons that live a life of ignorance. They are mentally incompetent to really understand the condition much less understand her or how I care for her as much as I do.  Those with BPD fear abandonment more then death itself ... .think about that for a moment ... .THEY WOULD RATHER COMMIT SUICIDE THEN LIVE WITH THE FEAR ... .THE PERCEIVED FEAR THAT THEY ARE ALONE IN THE WORLD. YOU LEFT ... .YOU DON'T LOVE ME ... .I'M GARBAGE ... .I'M NOT WORTHY OF YOURS OR ANYONE ELSE LOVE ... .Suicide is permanent ... .you don't come back from that. With the help of a good therapist ... .with the support of someone who loves them & has an amazing incredible amount of understanding and patience they have a chance to live a life ... .most of their life without that fear ... .it won't be all rainbows & unicorns ... .but as you said Conundrum ... . I count my blessings in a plethora of ways. As it has been a lifetime’s work.

Those with BPD have said they feel deeply, passionately without equal ... .quite possibly true being abandon as a child from their parent when they needed them the most. I believe they do love us when they tell us that ... .they want to love, they want to trust but have never really learned how to and are emotionally damaged to the core. Conundrum you said ... .

However (since the breach), when the drugs ramped up, to such a degree that the disease/disorder required constant vampiric feeding. The pursuit of dopamine explosions assaulting and twisting any natural balance, until the new normal was extraterrestrial and savage.  I dove deep into this passage ... .remember I'm not judging ... .I'm trying to not only understand your situation by your words but how it might help me and maybe others understand their BPD relationships ... .so with that ... .(Since the breach) whether you initiated it or she did you parted ways ... .could she perceive this as being abandoned?  The one person she thought she could trust, loved her unconditional is no longer with her and in order to become numb to these overwhelming feelings of abandonment she dove deeper into the world demons pushing drugs to get artificially what she needed, she had to ramp up the vampiric feeding to dull the overwhelming fears that shake her to the very core of her soul to "in your words", in the pursuit of dopamine explosions assaulting & twisting ANY natural glance until the new normal was extraterrestrial & savage. That she felt abandon like everyone else did in her life? She needed to dull the pain.

EVEN as she was incarcerated ... .pregnant and ALL alone she reached out to you ... .the one person she knows she knows she can count on to be there to help ... .seeking out your advice. Have you really asked yourself why? My situation is similar and this passage turned on a light ... .dull 25 watt light but it shined like a lighthouse beacon on the rocky shore in the middle of a dark moonless night that drew my attention to it ... .it warranted more attention. My exBPDgf recently told me in part that "I trust you like no others before you because I know you truly love me". "It's why I share things with you that I don't share with others". "when my father died, YOU were the first person I called, not the guy I was dating at the time". When I have a problem relating to the kids, you are the one I call for advice". "You are the one I call whenever I need to or want to share something personal ... .not anyone else". "You are the one I want to share my day with or just ramble and talking about nothing at all."  That light became a little brighter ... .she trust me enough to share with me. She reached out to me in her darkest moments when her dad passed away to calm her fears, to let her know things were going to be ok, to let her know that she is loved.  It's all she wants ... .to be loved, to know that no matter how bad things get with her that I will always be there to help her, LIKE HER FATHER WHO WAS ALWAYS THERE ... .she knows she has to learn to express her frustration better. She knows she needs to adjust her behavior to live a better life for not only herself but her kids. She in her own way is trying to ask me to help her ... .who am I to turn away at the very least a friend who has held out a hand to me. Who is trying the best she can to communicate that she wants me to help, wants me to be there ... .She like yours is a deep, complex, spiritual being who is funny and wants nothing more for someone to love her despite all her faults ... .despite all her immense feelings of guilt of what happened to her as a child ... .she wants to be loved despite all her feelings of frustration.  Others have come before me and couldn't understand her behavior ... .or most likely were just men who wanted to treat her like a play toy until they were bored with her and tossed her to the side ... .

Thank you so very much for your words Conundrum ... .that 25 watt light is getting brighter as I continue to reflect my exBPDgf actions, words. As I reflect on my actions, reactions, what I said, or didn't say ... .you chose compassion ... .as do I. It has been a long road, turns, twist, sink holes that seemed to swallow up my sole at times ... .but as you put it this life is short ... .for no fault of your own you can be taking off of it without notice. Don't leave things unsaid, don't leave things undone. At times I have resented her for her actions, deeds, or things she said like many others have with their BPD r/s. I question something ... .those who are "disturb" have sins to forgive?  The mind is more complex organ like the heart that a lifetime of lifetimes might not ever come to fully understand.

INFERNO ... .you said in part ... .sshe can't make a meaningful connection with another human being, she can only have casual sex and be used by guys, have "fake relationships" with guys she has no real feelings for but pretends to, or if she does find a decent guy like me or one of her other exes who she does connect to and have feelings for, she must self sabotage and run away. She can't control this, she admitted it to me, and admitted that it makes her sad every day.  

My exBPDgf has said similar things ... .You have given insight to BPD that many others might not realize. You again emphasize their OVERWHELMING FEAR OF ABANDONMENT!  SO as much as you, me or others here in the group fear that hurt of the r/s with our own BPD when we split up, just imagine for a moment ... .really imagine that hurt, that pain, that overwhelming of dread that the one you loved left you, caused you pain, said nasty hurtful things, possibly found the physical solace in the arms of another ... .NOOW multiply all that you feel a thousand times a thousand times and now you begin to understand what your BPD is starting to feel. By putting myself in their shoes thinking about that very thing, I can understand why all they can't make meaningful connections with another person. That they only have casual sex or to be used by guys/women "fake relationships" in order to avoid at all cost those feelings. My exBPDgf has told me she recently learned this and why she self sabotage the relationship ... .to avoid the pain she feels.

Reading both your post that lightbulb gets a little brighter with every sentence I read, with every reasonable thought I have reflecting ... .things are clicking and making more sense for me as you hoped it might Conundrum. She has told me that the current bf isn't more then a "fake relationship" as you said inferno. Because I'm 1/2 way across the country by my choice, she feels alone in her house when she doesn't have her kids. He fills a purpose to as she said, "to avoid being alone, to avoid the feeling of abandonment, YOUR NOT HERE". "He's not the one I want to spend & share my life with" "he's in a different place in life then I am and they don't match up", "he doesn't want the same things as I do, doesn't think the same way I do, doesn't have the same values that I do". "He keeps my mind occupied so I don't feel sad as much" ... ."I know it needs to end".

As i posted in another area ... .I've set boundaries and one of those was earlier in the week. I told her that one of my boundaries was NOT TO LIE. Regardless of how much it might hurt, I want, I need you to tell me the truth. I need to know that if we go forward that I can trust you and that you won't lie to me about anything. We have been talking & texting everyday when she called me 3 days ago. We talked for a few minutes and she told me, "I need to tell you something" and it was in a certain tone that we all know. Ok I said. "I'm going to be spending the holiday weekend with "insert name here" and I know that we've been talking & texting everyday and I didn't want you to not know why I had stopped calling. SEE I saw this as a TREMENDOUS & HUGE step forward in our relationship ... .however defined ... .see before I put that boundary in she would of just told me that she was going to spend the holiday with her kids and not share herself with anyone on the phone. So, I've learned from this site and books and therapy that setting boundaries does work ... .at least in my case. She's been in therapy for 25 years and I know that has helped. It's another small step in the right direction.

Please don't think I don't know that it's going to be all rainbows and unicorns as I know it won't be. I still have doubt that things will work out ... .but this string of everyones thoughts & input has certainly turned that lightbulb a little brighter. I thank you all for your insightfulness ... .sharing your thoughts, your pain, and your soul ... .

I wish you all peace & strength in your search for your way forward ... .

JQ

[LonelyChild]

... .

Thanks for sharing.

Although it is obviously your (and her) decision,  I would advice you to leave. Both for your best, and her best. What you are doing is enduring abuse. No, it's not intentional from her side. But do you really want to spend the rest of your life enduring pain for her sake? Also, you should consider the fact that, even though your intentions are noble, you might be a road block in her development. The safety she feels with you - knowing you are always there to carry her (emotionally) - might lessen her incentives to develop a sense of self. Instead, she will repeat the pattern - do something impulsive, panic and fall on you.

These people cannot easily (if at all) be mended. And they definitely cannot be mended by their SO, only soothed. Take care, and please do not interpret my post as offensive as I absolutely wish both you and her the best.

[JQ]

Lonely Child,

As I said, I have no illusions that things are going to be rainbows & unicorns. I have read that a life shared with a BPD will be a lifetime of therapy & counseling with professionals for both if I ... .we decide to pursue a relationship. For the boundaries put in place you must learn to enforce consequences if they're breached. It's not unlike teaching your child that things will happen if you do or don't do certain things. If you teach your child to drive a car, you also teach them proper use of a turn signal, the use of seatbelt and to obey traffic speeds. Now if your 16 yr old goes out & gets a speeding ticket & knows that you will pay for it ... .have you really taught them anything about consequences & responsibilities? You in force the law / rule and you make them pay for it so that they "might" not speed again. After getting tired of being hung up on in the middle of a more then once phone conversation, I set a boundary & told her it was rude & you disrespected me by hanging up on me. She then apologized and said she understood how I would feel that way and to this date we don't have those conversations anymore. She doesn't hang up on me ... .that is just one example. Does it work all the time with every boundary ... .did I just see a pink unicorn? Nope. but we talk, discuss it and reset the boundaries. Like a 3 year old who get their hand spanked for trying to touch the top of the stove when it's hot, sometimes they have to learn on their own that it's hot & going to hurt like hell when they touch it ... .but you know that they're never going to do it again.

Being in a relationship with someone diagnosed w/BPD isn't for everyone for whatever reason. I go back and forth everyday ... .I really do. I read all sections of this sight to educate myself as much as possible. If i don't I feel I do myself, her and others a disservice if I see only one side of the situation. I don't find offense to your post ... .on the contrary ... .I respect you thoughts and insight as someone who has been in a relationship with a BPD is only seeks out to share his experiences and their thoughts. I'm not a martyr, but a person who seeks out knowledge on what is certainly a very complex & emotional situation. I believe I better understand her by my post ... .but it certainly doesn't mean I've made up my mind of what side of that fence I'm going to end up on.

JQ

[LonelyChild]

Lonely Child,

As I said, I have no illusions that things are going to be rainbows & unicorns. I have read that a life shared with a BPD will be a lifetime of therapy & counseling with professionals for both if I ... .we decide to pursue a relationship. For the boundaries put in place you must learn to enforce consequences if they're breached. It's not unlike teaching your child that things will happen if you do or don't do certain things. If you teach your child to drive a car, you also teach them proper use of a turn signal, the use of seatbelt and to obey traffic speeds. Now if your 16 yr old goes out & gets a speeding ticket & knows that you will pay for it ... .have you really taught them anything about consequences & responsibilities? You in force the law / rule and you make them pay for it so that they "might" not speed again. After getting tired of being hung up on in the middle of a more then once phone conversation, I set a boundary & told her it was rude & you disrespected me by hanging up on me. She then apologized and said she understood how I would feel that way and to this date we don't have those conversations anymore. She doesn't hang up on me ... .that is just one example. Does it work all the time with every boundary ... .did I just see a pink unicorn? Nope. but we talk, discuss it and reset the boundaries. Like a 3 year old who get their hand spanked for trying to touch the top of the stove when it's hot, sometimes they have to learn on their own that it's hot & going to hurt like hell when they touch it ... .but you know that they're never going to do it again.

Being in a relationship with someone diagnosed w/BPD isn't for everyone for whatever reason. I go back and forth everyday ... .I really do. I read all sections of this sight to educate myself as much as possible. If i don't I feel I do myself, her and others a disservice if I see only one side of the situation. I don't find offense to your post ... .on the contrary ... .I respect you thoughts and insight as someone who has been in a relationship with a BPD is only seeks out to share his experiences and their thoughts. I'm not a martyr, but a person who seeks out knowledge on what is certainly a very complex & emotional situation. I believe I better understand her by my post ... .but it certainly doesn't mean I've made up my mind of what side of that fence I'm going to end up on.

JQ

I don't know all boundaries she's crossed with you, but even staying in a r/s with some boundaries broken (trust, infidelity, lies) many times over indicates to her that there are no consequences. A sane consequence of continuous infidelity would be abandonment. Right? For your own sake, keep this in mind. I also ask you to think more about whether you're actually helping her in life, or whether you're soothing negative feelings (stemming from consequences of lousy behavior) to the point that she has no incentive to change. Be well.

[Learning_curve74]

Conundrum, I definitely believe that if one values being a kind and compassionate person, one should not let the world change that regardless. I love my exBPDgf and only wish her the best, while at the same time knowing that she is not a person I want to play a large role in my life. In my estimation, forgiveness is for me, any expression of it to her is simple kindness.

One thing about your letter I noticed though is that it is all about your feelings and not necessarily about hers. How has she taken this kind of thing in the past? Does she run and hide even further in shame?

[patientandclear]

Her note is about what you do for her. It follows that pattern of "I value you because you do things for me" perfectly.

If I'd written the note to my BPDex that you wrote to yours, Conundrum, he'd blast me for being condescending, which was always his reaction when I so much as hinted that there was anything destructive or wrong with the way he was managing his life. I'm wondering if she will take this as "forgiveness" because it seems like you're saying (not inaccurately) that she's very messed up. To someone with BPD I think that comes close to being the same as an outright condemnation.

How to deliver the news that you think their choices suck and hurt them and others is an elusive question. Even on Staying there don't seem to be techniques for that. It seems like there's not much room for that in a BPD r/ship.

[Conundrum]

Her note is about what you do for her. It follows that pattern of "I value you because you do things for me" perfectly.

If I'd written the note to my BPDex that you wrote to yours, Conundrum, he'd blast me for being condescending, which was always his reaction when I so much as hinted that there was anything destructive or wrong with the way he was managing his life. I'm wondering if she will take this as "forgiveness" because it seems like you're saying (not inaccurately) that she's very messed up. To someone with BPD I think that comes close to being the same as an outright condemnation.

How to deliver the news that you think their choices suck and hurt them and others is an elusive question. Even on Staying there don't seem to be techniques for that. It seems like there's not much room for that in a BPD r/ship.

Patient--In excerpting a small passage from her long letter naturally, that offers a narrow context.  When the state removes one’s liberty for using methamphetamine while pregnant; when one’s probation officer is threatening to send the offender to the Corrections Department where she will give birth “in-custody” at the hospital and within two-days the baby will be placed into the guardianship of the state; when one will imminently appear before a judge who at sentencing will decide her fate--placing the risk of harm to the unborn fetus (proximately caused by the mother’s negligence) high upon his agenda; when one has lost career, credit, all worldly possessions and is homeless; when one has slammed meth via IV introduction almost daily for over two-years; when her maladaptive behaviors are not being sanctioned and corrected by a relational entity, but by a sovereign societal force empowered to correct those who cannot, (or have chosen not to) correct themselves.  Facing those circumstances, she is well aware that she’s very messed up.

She has been diagnosed w/ BPD by a therapeutic body affiliated with the Linehan Institute/Behavioral Tech. There is a dichotomy on this board between those who have self-diagnosed their x’s, and those whose x’s are self-aware that they suffer from an axis II cluster b personality disorder.  In addition, there is a reason for the statistical predominance of BPD in females compared to males. In males, there is higher probability of comorbidity with npd/aspd traits. Combining that w/ testosterone produces different symptomology.

Seeing my x, knees pulled up to chest rocking back and forth in near catatonia, muttering over and over, “I’m worthless, I’m worthless,” that tragic core trait born from hereditary and environmental factors—she is her harshest critic. The question she faces during this turning point in her life is whether she will adopt evidence-based mechanisms to manage the disorder or whether she will continue to give into the disorder and act out. That choice can only be made with her “wise mind” fee from substance abuse.

As I stated (for me), it is inevitably a choice. One of the prompts for my response to her was that it was very difficult for me to be in her presence knowing that she was harming an unborn life. I felt anger, disgust, and contempt that she had fallen that far. I remember seeing her, and there was a moment where she must have been feeling a dialectical struggle with self, bc she asked me to tell her something “good” about herself. I could not. I told her that she had a “cute ass.” Not one of my finer moments.  It has been a long time since I’ve offered her words like that in a letter. Being lonely in jail, with her fate undecided—I thought now was the time. My post more was about my internal struggle than hers.  I feel fine with my reply to her and hope it brightened her day while in-custody.     

[HappyNihilist]

she asked me to tell her something “good” about herself. I could not. I told her that she had a “cute ass.” Not one of my finer moments. 

This made me laugh - because I completely understand.

You know what, though? You still tried. You didn't say, "I can't, because I feel disgusted by you right now and can't think of any redeeming qualities you might have." You didn't try to hurt her, despite the pain, anger, and contempt that you were feeling.

All we can ever do is just try our best. Sometimes the best we can do is being 'flip' and dismissive instead of loosing the vileness we feel onto another human who is struggling in their own way. And that's a pretty darn good 'best' in those circumstances, if you ask me.

[patientandclear]

Makes total sense Conundrum. And I hope she heard the words as you meant them.

[LonelyChild]

... .she asked me to tell her something “good” about herself. I could not. I told her that she had a “cute ass.” Not one of my finer moments ... .

I can relate to this. I try to come up with nice things to say to my uBPDxgf to motivate her and give her pep talks, but there's basically nothing good to say. She's not kind, not considerate, not caring, not giving, has no income, no education, no friends, no FOO around her, no home, isn't honest, accept no responsibility for anything but is quick to point finger and judge (and blame!) others, etc, etc, etc.

So, there really isn't anything good I can say. Other than she has a cute face. Which she does. But what does that even mean when everything else is absolutely rotten to the core? I try to lift her spirit over little things she makes progress with. She decided to not spend money on useless decorative things a while back. I told her that was a strong and proper move. She sold some of her belongings on a swap meet. Some of the things I had giver to her for her to sell. I think it's like $20 or something. I told her that was a good thing to do, and a move in the right direction (albeit microscopic considering everything else).

I hope she can find her way in life. I couldn't help her to see it. Neither could her family of origin. Like yours, mine is a very low-functioning pwBPD. Today, I'm thankful of this, because it made it easier for me to see her core.

[Invictus01]

Once you get through the initial stage of the complete confusion and understand what happened to you and what was going on, forgiveness is the only way to go. Forgive the PD... .forgive yourself... .and make sure none of that happens again to you.

[myself]

Conundrum, I notice in your letter there is no mention of forgiveness.

Is that because she already knows you have forgiven her/it's not an issue?

Or more because you're not quite there yet, offering 'kindness' instead?

[HappyNihilist]

Conundrum, I notice in your letter there is no mention of forgiveness.

Is that because she already knows you have forgiven her/it's not an issue?

Or more because you're not quite there yet, offering 'kindness' instead?

I can't speak for Conundrum, of course, but my experience has been that offering forgiveness to someone who hasn't asked for it does not usually go over well. It can come across as condescending and/or judgmental, even though it's not meant that way.

She knows she has fallen. She feels that she is worthless. Hearing "I forgive you" might make her feel even smaller.

Forgiveness is something personal, that we feel towards others. Not including instances where forgiveness is explicitly sought - as long as we feel it authentically, do we need to express it? I think that's an interesting question.

[Conundrum]

Conundrum, I notice in your letter there is no mention of forgiveness.

Is that because she already knows you have forgiven her/it's not an issue?

Or more because you're not quite there yet, offering 'kindness' instead?

Hi Myself, that's a very good question. Thank you for asking it--though I don't have a bulletproof answer bc it touches on so many conundrums  . HappyNihilist offers salient points that I agree with though: First, I'm not her victim--I think(?) I chose to become involved with a troubled woman. That's on me, but I don't regret it. The reasons though are too complex to elaborate about here, and it has been a long time since we were officially a couple--though we've "been with each other" since the split. Second she's been altered on drugs for years and getting into the "I-forgive-you notions" while she's adorned in an orange jumpsuit pregnant in jail, perhaps isn't the most opportune time. Third, this "forgiveness" thingy is more about me accepting in an integrated manner that perhaps the greatest romantic love I've felt is over a very troubled woman--and that shaming myself is being a conformist  . I'm an iconoclast  . That's my best answer and I'm sticking to it.

The absolute material answer though, is that I don't want to give her false hope that if she gets her probation reinstated, is sentenced to a program, and if she makes it successfully through--baby mama and baby are going to return to our one-time nest and we will resume our happy little krazy-kat family. That theoretical idyllic bubble encapsulates more than just myself--and others near and dear to me would be subjected to "the great experiment." Considering her state, (and mine also) that is beyond premature--and is closer to fable.

So, from my perspective--and knowing a little about how she thinks--or doesn't critically think--any "I forgive you for your past sins," will be perceived as "if I can get back on my feet Conundrum will take me in." That's way too KISA for me considering where I'm at these days. If she's going to make a return to the living from the walking dead I cannot be her incentive, nor do I want to be. That was one of my primary concerns when replying-and navigating that perceived tightrope.       

       

[SGraham]

For me it is not so much a matter of finding forgiveness for my ex more like making peace with the world i live in. I don't mean to sound all esoteric but i kinda mean that. Im not really mad at my ex because she is sick, im mad at the universe for throwing me into such a cruel situation. I have always been a bit of an absurdist if we are talking philosophy and i used to derive solace from that, but my experience with my ex was so random, so cruel that the idea no longer comforts me, in fact rather it more haunts me now.

[myself]

I hear you about timing/consideration, and how it's actions more than words.

Here's something. I feel I did much of my forgiving while still in the relationship (which in some ways also kept the patterns going, for both of us), and what I'm facing now is what's left over/facing facts (since the End of the r/s has happened for sure). It's really about healing ourselves.

Finding that it's letting go that's happening/creating peace. As deep as love.

[patientandclear]

For me it is not so much a matter of finding forgiveness for my ex more like making peace with the world i live in. I don't mean to sound all esoteric but i kinda mean that. Im not really mad at my ex because she is sick, im mad at the universe for throwing me into such a cruel situation. I have always been a bit of an absurdist if we are talking philosophy and i used to derive solace from that, but my experience with my ex was so random, so cruel that the idea no longer comforts me, in fact rather it more haunts me now.

I'm with you SGraham.  There was very little if anything for me to extract from this experience other than very painful mere emotional and psychological survival.  This was the very last thing I needed to encounter in my life journey.  I had already learned the lessons available here at considerable cost, and I was so excited to experience something ... .healing and new.  Ha.  Coyote.  I don't feel as Conundrum does, that I don't regret it.  I deeply, deeply regret it.  It cost far too much.

[Darsha500]

For me it is not so much a matter of finding forgiveness for my ex more like making peace with the world i live in. I don't mean to sound all esoteric but i kinda mean that. Im not really mad at my ex because she is sick, im mad at the universe for throwing me into such a cruel situation. I have always been a bit of an absurdist if we are talking philosophy and i used to derive solace from that, but my experience with my ex was so random, so cruel that the idea no longer comforts me, in fact rather it more haunts me now.

“The only real security in life lies in relishing life’s insecurity.”


I get this, too. I love absurdism and existentialism. No meaning other than the meaning we make.

I took some existential/philosophical factors into account before venturing into my relationship. For one, I recognized the fortuitous nature of our meeting (me and my ex). I like to think of it as a synchronicity, Jung's term for a meaningful coincidence. At the time, she seemed to be the answer to my prayers, so to speak. I lickened it to molecules bouncing around in a vast open space. The two molecules correspond to one another perfectly, so when they make contact - BANG! - Fireworks. - When the student is ready the teacher will appear... .Yes, but also, life is meaningless and we superimpose our own system of meaning upon it.

In addition to this, I also took into consideration that one day I will cease to exist. I only have a limited amount of time on this earth and I have yet to experience so much of what this life has to offer me, especially in terms of relationship, intimacy, and love - the things that have the potential of giving us humans unparalleled fulfillment. Taking on this viewpoint, and adding in my personality and life circumstances, I decided to bypass all of the flashing warning lights, the sirens blazing in my ears. In fact, to a certain extent, the red flags enlivened me. I thought, "this is exhilarating! I AM ALIVE!"

Another philosophical fragment. The stoic's taught that one can be joyous despite all of the harsh circumstances life presents. They taught a technique known as negative visualization, which entails imagining the worst possible outcome so that one can sort of desensitize oneself to that eventuality. Recognizing that I was in for pain should the relationship explode, I did my best to imagine the worst.

Nietzsche and other philosophers have pointed out the fact that life is filled with tragedy. "Tragedy thrills me," so says Maynard of the band Tool in the song vicarious. This line rings true for me. Its why I like horror films, because tragedy brings me face to face with my mortality, with what it means to be human. Without tragedy would joy be as sweet? Are they not dependent upon one another?

Yes life is absurd - Life is a comedy. Life is a tragedy. This life: an adventure - a play in which we are all actors. A play well worth the price of admission: vulnerability, risk, uncertainty, PAIN.

"We can love only that which in one way or another has importance for us. But with cathexis there is always the risk of loss or rejection. If you move out to another human being, there is always the risk that that person will move away from you, leaving you more painfully alone than you were before. Love anything that lives—a person, a pet, a plant—and it will die. Trust anybody and you may be hurt; depend on anyone and that one may let you down. The price of cathexis is pain. If someone is determined not to risk pain, then such a person must do without many things: having children, getting married, the ecstasy of sex, the hope of ambition, friendship—all that makes life alive, meaningful and significant. Move out or grow in any dimension and pain as well as joy will be your reward. A full life will be full of pain. But the only alternative is not to live fully or not to live at all."

[Conundrum]

I'm with you SGraham.  There was very little if anything for me to extract from this experience other than very painful mere emotional and psychological survival.  This was the very last thing I needed to encounter in my life journey.  I had already learned the lessons available here at considerable cost, and I was so excited to experience something ... .healing and new.  Ha.  Coyote.  I don't feel as Conundrum does, that I don't regret it.  I deeply, deeply regret it.  It cost far too much.

I'm sorry to hear that Patient. Intense feelings linger like phantom pains. What do you think will be the tonic for you? Will you take a different approach in future relationships?

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I learned a long time ago that romantic attachments are fragile creatures subject to unexpected change. I'd rather trust in myself than give every last fiber of my being to another, bc if or when a severing occurs what reserves do you have left but an empty tank. I've spent my entire life developing pursuits that are independently meaningful, intense and pleasurable and try to greet each new day feeling ok about what I have instead of what is absent. If I'm involved with someone I try to be mindful, but they'll never define my essential being. How could they?

There are a lot of days I wake up, spread out in the middle of the bed, instead of being on my side and feel quite content with the freedom to be able to do what I want without the concerns of being in a committed relationship. The anomaly we experience though with a BPD relationship is that it becomes so subliminally addicting that it fuses into our circuits and then fries the panel. You need a host of powerful circuit breakers when dealing with these swirling storms. 

[patientandclear]

  Conundrum.  To that last post and the one from Darsha:

My ex talks about tragedy a lot.  Early on he announced that the demise our r/s was "tragic."  That confused me at the time, as he was engineering its demise, so if he felt it was so tragic, why not make other choices?  He has referred several times in our several different chapters to the tragedy of what was happening with us.

I now realize he has a much more ambivalent relationship to tragedy than I do. Based on his life experience he doesn't think it's avoidable, not just overall (which I of course agree with), but in each specific strand of his life story.  It will all go bottoms-up.

I on the other hand feel from the bottom of my little toes that if we can avoid tragedy, hurt and loss, we should try to do that.  I don't think it's all good, all part of the mix, bring it on.  I also think that if my ex has that attitude it's not responsible for forge deep connections with new people, at least, not without some truth in advertising.  And his advertising is the opposite.  It's all about the grave disappointments of the past which were due to selecting the wrong people, and how this will be different.  I know you guys know the score there.

I think what has fried my panel, as you put it , is not the deep connection -- I always have maintained a non-enmeshed stance, my life is full of other things and people -- it's more the failure to safeguard the deep connection.  The almost reckless choice to shrug and accept the loss.  That is super hard for me to accept and super hard for me to watch.  If that approach brought this guy deep satisfaction it would be different.  I can see that it does not.  His use of women is like your ex's use of meth, Conundrum, and it's just hard to watch, and I don't approve, and while I accept it is him and his path and I am not trying to alter it, it sure does hurt to have to continually maintain boundaries that leave him there when I believe there is another way.

For another relationship: I'll be the same me but with another person who feels similarly about how to take care of these precious bonds we occasionally are able to build with our fellow humans.