Talking Down and Parenting

[LivingWBPDWife]

Over the last 6 years my BPD wife has devolved more and more and now I feel like I am living with a petulant 12 year old girl that everything is a war to get her to do. Now, if you don't experience life with a BPD its hard to explain to other people that my 30' something wife is "literally" like a 12 year old, but one thing that has happened over the time and I am guilty of in a sense is "parenting" her and talking down to her. Of course the reason for this is that she acts like a child, so I might start off in a normal voice, "honey, can you clean the kitchen when you get a chance?". Of course, this is after me cleaning her mess 1000x, and all I want her to do is get off facebook and clean her mess up.

Now she will either ignore me, keep playing with facebook, texting, or whatever other validation exercise she is doing at the time online OR she will say sure... .

Hours go by, and I know she is getting tired, ready for bed, so I say again, now in a more stern and parenting voice "Honey, its getting late, could you PLEASE clean the kitchen? You have been texting for hours, its getting late", or something similar.

At this point she may ignore me again or go into a rage and comply and start doing it, or say, I am not going to clean, I don't feel like it.

Now, I have tried 100 different ways, cold, hot, sweet, just repeating the request over and over. But, if I don't tell her to do something many times, she NEVER will do it, I have tried experiments, and she will go a month and leave a piece of dog poop on the carpet from her dog, she is THAT lazy.

So, my question is, I am sure many people here have taken on parent roles, and their BPDs then hate and resent this, but how else to talk to them? Should I just NEVER hold her responsible for anything? Simply ask once and if she doesn't do it, just give up?

The problem is I work 80-100 hours a week (at home thank god) to support everything, she stays home, and her only jobs are to take care of the baby, feed herself, the baby, and clean her own mess up. She NEVER cooks for me, NEVER cleans up after me, NEVER does yard work, etc. I drive down my street, I see many wives with 3-4 kids, 1-2 babies, they are doing yard work, cleaning, whatever, but my BPD can barely manage getting up each day.

I can't imagine a wife that cooks cleans etc. 50-50, I do it 99% of the time, and she has nothing but time on her hands, she plops the baby down, and just sits staring at her iPhone, its pathetic, so I have to constantly stop my work (very technical, so its very distracting stopping), and play with the baby, read to her, etc. which I LOVE doing, and would love to do all day if I could, but the deal is, I work and pay for everything, the private school, the giant house, the 3 cars, the organic food, etc. and SHE stays home and watches the baby with me there of course to help. But, if I don't constantly go in and check on her, she will just play with her iPhone 8 hours straight and ignore our 11 month old. The "new baby" smell is gone, and she is over it, and now its a "job" being a mom, and BPDs hate work, so this is killing her, and making me have to act like a parent more and more.

Anyway, since I talk down to her like a parent, she uses this as ammo to why she doesn't do anything -- but, I am like WHY do you think I have to talk to you like this? Its because I ask you nicely 100 times, then finally I get sick of telling a grown woman to stop emptying the bank account each month, or to pick up her panties, or to clean her dishes --

Just exhausting... .

Comments? Ideas? Anyone have this same problem?

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[123Phoebe]

Hi LivingWBPDWife,

Sounds like a pretty frustrating way to live, just wanting a few simple contributions done around the house, then finding even that's too much to ask for because it doesn't get done anyway, creating an even bigger rift between you two.  Is that about right?

It's hard once we get into these dynamics, but not at all impossible to change

My bf is super sensitive to criticism, hey, I don't like it too much either.  So, I thought about it, what I must sound like to him.  Ew, a parent!  What a turn off.  I don't want him to think about me like a critical mom of all things... .Blegh.

Anyway, here's a link to Validation:  https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation

Oh my gosh!  Talk about a life changer!  I had been going about things so completely backwards when trying to communicate with him, just expecting him to totally understand where I was coming from, not taking into consideration how he was perceiving me.  At the same time, I didn't like who I was becoming, a complete nag.  Even when I wasn't saying a word, my actions were screaming out, "I'm not happy!"

So, learning how to validate has built a bridge to connecting rather than dissecting and feeling super frustrated.

I wouldn't believe it unless I actually tried and reaped the rewards   Just amazing stuff.

Hope it helps you, too!

[LivingWBPDWife]

I will take a look at the link. I do validate, but its of course complete fiction to me all the time. I simply know, if I don't then she will rage, or whatever is the emotional flavor of the hour. But, I definitely don't have a good way to "ask" her to do things, so I will take a look at this link right now and see if its useful --

But, can you give me an example of how you might have asked him to do something in the past, as opposed to how you would now, an honest example maybe something recent? I would like to see the diff. Frankly, I am not sure how to ask to take out the garbage other than "can you please take out the garbage". Sure, I can add things like:

"I know you must be so tired, but if you get a chance, can you take out the garbage, it would really help me"

However, she knows she is NOT tired, since she doesn't do anything, thus she knows I am really being sarcastic, which I am, most validations of invalid emotions or behaviors really are placations which by definition are sarcastic in nature.

Anyway, an example or 2 would be really helpful

[LivingWBPDWife]

Hmmm -- I just read the link, nothing really I haven't heard or tried. However, didn't really address my particular issue which is not about validating a feeling, in other words my BPD hasn't said or done anything, I am INITIATING contact with a question or request -- and the act of this makes her mad... .Also, this

Your daughter is upset because her husband cut up her credit card. She says he's treating her like a child and is very controlling. When you ask her why, she bought expensive shoes and they were unable to pay the bill.

You validate by saying, "I understand, you are upset because your husband cut up your credit cards without your agreement--that made you feel like he was acting like your parent."

You reflect her thoughts and emotions back to her, showing that you accept her feelings and internal experience and then ease into your conversation and explore a broader perspective.

I know how to do this, but again, this is in response to an event and the BPD is already in need of validation. I get this. But, running a household with baby, dogs, etc. requires 2 adults to split chores and my wife with her under developed sense of responsibility takes anything I ask or request VERY critically -- so, until I can figure out a way to ask her questions or ask her to do chores, she simply will do as little as possible.

I mean she had 22 cavities a couple years ago, since she hated brushing her teeth! I had to pay for 11-12 fillings -- this is just nutty. So, I have to tell a 30+ year old woman to brush her teeth each night, or she will forget about 50% of the time. And of course everytime I remind her pisses her off.

Now this is one of 100 things I need to tell her to do, remind her to do, etc. and that's 10% of what she needs to do as an adult, but I can't deal with the other 90%, it would make her blow her stack. So, I am just trying to make sure she eats, flushes the toilet, takes showers, feeds the baby, and simple things -- my god, I can't imagine her saying "honey, you spent 6 hours yesterday helping me with that thing for the 15th time, can I help you for 10 mins today with something?"

Wow, I would fall over and die if she actually offered to do ANYTHING for me

But, right now, I am really at a "stuck" point, since I can't ask or tell her to do anything without her going into a rage.

[123Phoebe]

In my case I'd mention something, maybe even something he already offered to do, he wouldn't do it, then I'd ask why and here we'd be in this circular weird argument of exact words or some such thing.  Let me wrack my brain, it's been a while... .

I have a sun porch with a lot of windows.  He offered to clean them.  Excellent, thank you!  Someday... .

Someday rolls around... .

me: What do you think about cleaning the windows today?

him: I said someday... .

me: Like today?

him: I said I'd help you clean the windows.

me: Ha okay... .I wasn't planning on you doing it alone, I'll help too.

him: You just said what do I think about cleaning the windows?

me: No, I just said that I'll help too.

Back and forth.  Frustrating.  He didn't really feel like cleaning the windows that day and truth be told, I didn't really feel like it either, otherwise I would've dug right in and gotten started.

The windows got cleaned with his help this way:

me: I want to get the windows cleaned before the weekend, it's supposed to be beautiful!

him: I said I'd help.

me: Oh I know, thanks, would you mind?  It's a boring job, but somebody's got to do it.  I'd appreciate your help.

him: We can get it knocked out in no time.

Done deal.

I validated that it's boring.  Cleaning windows isn't the funnest thing in the world to think about doing.  Also, that I appreciate him.

Does that help?

[sweetheart]

Hi LivingWBPDWife,

I really understand how difficult this kind of dysfunction can be in a spouse. My dBPDh also is just about to loose (past the point of fillings   )  most of his teeth (12) after not cleaning them for about 2 1/2 years. He has an apt at the end of them month to sort this out, but I know that if I didn't organise this and remind him it just wouldn't happen. ( it still might not )

All aspects of his life are like this, his level of functioning despite good support, medication, stable family is very limited. I can relate to feeling as though you are the parent. Sometimes it feels like I have two children, we have a s7, but of course I'm not a parent to him, neither does he want me to be and of course any time step into that role ( and believe me I have ) I invalidate him.

The other thing that struck me about your post is you have an 11 month old baby, I have assumed this is your first? I know how I felt when I had our s7, I was terrified, overwhelmed, nothing but nothing came naturally to me and I wasn't mentally ill. I did go on to develop quite severe Post Natal Depression which went undetected for about ten months. I'm not saying your wife has PND, but I know for sure how I felt and it was soo hard emotionally for such a long time. If she has difficulty attending to her own needs it will probably be really hard to maintain this with a baby. Then add on top any expectations to do anything else sounds like it's going to be extra extra hard at the moment for her.  Did she manage better before the pregnancy ? Has she always been quite low functioning ( outside idealisation phase  )?

What I have learnt after 10 years with my dBPDh is that sometimes I can validate and sometimes I just can't. I have learnt that my expectations are not his expectations and that in choosing to stay I have had to let go of what it means to me to be in a typical relationship. I want to use the word 'normal' but I don't want it to be misconstrued, but my marriage doesn't look like most people I know marriages and I accept it never will. Getting to a place of acceptance has helped me step out of prescribed roles like nurse, parent, other, with my h. Which has helped me more than it has him.

[babyducks]

Hi LivingWBPDWife,

Good set of questions in this thread.  Let me throw my two cents out there.

When I first came here I had trouble with validation.   To be honest it's still not my go to tool in the box.   I seem to communicate better using SET, Support, Empathy, Truth.   I think my communication style is more hardwired towards SET.   

This was my experience with validation.   When I first learned about validation I practiced what I thought were a couple of virtuoso validation lines, that when I actually used them, fell completely flat.     I got these validations right out of the books.   Changes them a bit to make them fit my circumstances.   

And then one day my partner and I were having a conversation that was starting to heat up and I literally snatched what happened to be the stupidest validation in the history of the world out of my ... .out of thin air and it worked.   She smiled at me and said okay and we went along with the conversation.   

So what finally occurred to me was, I had to sincerely mean what it was I was saying.   Which made me notice when you wrote  "I do validate, but its of course complete fiction to me".   Yeah, I've done that.   

Here is what I learned.   My partner is a very bright woman.   Like most people with BPD she's very very sensitive to her environment.   She's had a lifetime of people managing her emotions, telling her in so many words or less "You Just Shouldn't Feel That Way".    And she hates it.    So when I tried to use validation as a trick to avoid an argument rather than a tool to open lines of communication she reacted very passionately.     

what I liked about what 123Phoebe's example is that there is communication going both ways.   

when the lines of communication are all clogged up with anger and resentment and frustration on both sides its very hard to get anything done.

a simple SET around household chores would look like this for me.

Support:  I know you have always put your dirty dishes in the sink.  It's just a habit for you

Empathy: I know this is a small thing and may sound silly... .

Truth:  It bugs me to have  your dirty dishes in the sink and mine on the counter top, can we agree to put them in the dishwasher from now on?

I almost always use SET, it's become my default.   The other communication tools are DEARMAN and PUVAS.   

what do you think?

'ducks

[Notwendy]

I understand that this is frustrating, and I don't have an absolute  answer to it. I am thankfully not in the same situation, but for me relating over household chores or helping with children was an issue, because the relationship dynamics were an issue. Those can be improved, but the issue to focus on is relationship skills- the dynamics between two people- and our own contribution to that- not the chores.  However, one problem that happens in such a situation is that the person who feels they are doing more than the other- or that the other is not doing their fair share- can build up a big resentment and this is infused into the relationship.

Relating to a spouse as a parent isn't good for the relationship and it can feel invalidating to them as well as triggering to them if it resembles some of their own childhood issues. It can also enable their behavior in ways. You are somewhat between a rock and a hard place with helping with the baby here, because, the baby is an innocent participant in the situation. The baby has needs, yet if you jump in to help, you are also enabling her not taking care of the baby.

The baby's needs have to come first here. The baby didn't choose your wife as a mother, you did. The baby didn't do anything to be born, but the two of you did. So, as much as possible, the baby should not have to suffer on behalf of your marital issues. However, you can also determine how much your wife will neglect the child if you don't step in. For instance, if she were to cry, and you didn't pick her up right away, would your wife pick her up or let her cry for hours?  Would it be one more minute of crying or hours of crying? If it is minutes, I would let her get the baby because every time you do, you send the message that she is not capable.

It is great that you work at home, but would your wife do more if you were not there, or do you think the baby would be in danger if you left? Also can you concentrate with the constant interruptions?

My own issues were different. I was raised by a mom with quite profound BPD and repeated some of these patterns in my marriage with a spouse who has just enough of his own stuff from his childhood to trigger mine.  Our issue over household chores was our different perspectives, triggered childhood issues,  a boatload of resentment on both our parts, and relationship issues based on our own personal issues. All things considered, I was a caretaker- enabler, a role that seemed normal to me considering how I was raised. I had to change first.

I saw a more similar pattern to yours with my parents and have watched this over a long period of time. My mother is also emotionally younger. However, even a 12 year old can do the dishes quite well and babysit a child. I say baby sit for a reason. My mother is not evil, lazy or dangerous, but someone with an emotional level of a 12 year old is not able to tolerate the demands of a young child 24/7. It isn't good for the baby, and it isn't good for her. When I became a parent, she did spend time with my babies, but I was nearby- not hovering, but nearby, maybe folding laundry or doing the dishes while she held the baby. It was a balance between accepting her emotional tolerance and also not invalidating her. If your wife is so emotionally immature that she can not handle being alone with the baby, then this is something that has to be accepted without judgement and arrangements for the care of that baby need to be made. However, this determination needs to be made with great caution, because if your wife is capable, then you should not invalidate that. It may be that she is fine with the baby for most of the time, but could benefit from a sitter coming in to give her a break. This also needs to be determined between the two of you as a team as much as possible.

I also learned that someone emotionally close to us is not the best person to take on an authoritarian stance. I could tell my mother all day long to do the dishes, but the dynamics between us are such that I'm pretty sure she will not. However, if she knew a friend was dropping by, she'd do them- as that would motivate her. I could ask my kids to do the dishes, and they know they had better do them, because mom is their parent ( mom also has the car keys, the allowance... and other things they are motivated to do the dishes for) but getting into the dishes battle with a spouse is difficult.

It seems that you are in a place to afford some extras. My father's solution to how to get his own work done, was to work outside the home. Even when his job was something he could do at home, he left the home to do it, to the library to read or even another office. He had his business mail sent to a PO box. He was not able to work at home without interruptions. This was the way it was and rather than fight it, he took steps to protect his work life.  We also had nannies/sitters and household help. It seems that my mother was fine with that. Day care might have been a better idea ( got us out of the house) but it wasn't available in that era.

We were not extremely wealthy, but this was a choice he made, even if it meant we didn't buy something else. When my H balked at helping with house/kids, I did the something similar even if it took a large chunk of my part time salary. If I needed some time to myself, it was easier to ask a friend or get a sitter than to ask my H, and the kids' well being was a priority. He is very capable, but somehow asking him to do something he considered to be "my job" was a recipe for a fight and resentment. It wasn't worth it to me.

However, my father also took on the role of caretaker, enabler, and this reinforced mom's immaturity. His constant being there to take care of things, added by us kids taking on that role, kept mom in "helpless mode". Why should she do the dishes when she could make her daughter do them ? ( she still does! when I visit). We all were very good at walking on eggshells, and mom didn't have to learn to self soothe or manage her own feelings. However, mom is quite capable of doing things on her own. My visits can trigger her back into "helpless mode" as that is the pattern in our family.

Still, the most important person in all of this is the baby. The baby needs to be safe- however you arrange that, and if it is not with your wife, then one possible solution is to have the baby in day care for the time you need to be at work. I say day care as the presence of a sitter in your house may cause some issues with your wife. If this isn't an issue, then a sitter coming in to give her a break for a short time might work.

The next priority is the financial security of your family- which means you need to be able to do your job without interruptions. You can not control your wife or the baby. Once the baby is being cared for, you need to set up an environment where you can do your job. Let her know that you will turn off your phone and check messages periodically.

Dishes? Cooking? I don't know if there is any solution. If she is not going to do them, then she is not. Or her clean up routine is different from yours- she may do them eventually but let them pile up longer.


Then, once you feel baby and your job are safe, the only way to create any change is with you. Sorry, but that is the hardest truth. Chores and anything like that are a reflection of relationship dynamics and for that to change, we have to first start with looking at ours. If some of your actions are because you feel your wife can not handle her life without you stepping in, then ( this does not require leaving her- I am not suggesting that) then, take a step back from stepping in to do things for her. She may get angry at first, but may also gain true validation and confidence that doesn't have to come from you.

[Notwendy]

The lessons (on this board) that I am referring to start with radical acceptance.

Comparing your wife to the other mothers in the neighborhood is something that can set up an expectation- but that can be detrimental to your own situation. You chose your wife for the many good qualities you saw (or once saw) in her. Baby care is temporal- kids grow up, then there will be school. Other issues may arise but the constant 24/7 demands of a baby are not forever.

Interpretations of her behavior in a negative way " lazy" may be inaccurate and not helpful to the relationship. Of course, your feelings are your feelings, and it may feel lazy to you, but there are other possibilities such as feeling overwhelmed, having difficulties with getting organized, or other reasons to consider.

Even moms that don't have BPD need a break once in a while. The baby may be overwhelming to your wife. See what you can do to help that situation, your work, and then continue to use the lessons.

Hope is because - people can grow, babies also grow, and the key to our own emotional growth is working on ourselves.

[LivingWBPDWife]

123Phoebe,

That is a good example, but that's doing something collaborative, basically YOU are going to start and manage it, and if they want to chip in then they can, this reduces their anxiety. But, in the cases I am talking about SHE has to do this, SHE has to feed the baby (I don't have boobs , SHE has to brush her own teeth, and so forth.

Like she won't read to the baby, so I have tried everything:

me: honey, when you get a chance can you read to the baby?

her: Stop telling me to read, I will do it when I feel like it.

And she never does.

Now, I might try your approach a bit with a validation:

me: honey, I know you're tired, but it would really help me out if you would read to her.

her: Stop telling me to read, I am never going to read to her just to piss you off.

So, my problem is she is just 100% against being told anything. Now, the only time I can negotiate anything is if she REALLY wants something, then she talks in a baby voice, says please, etc. and then if I give her, her way she goes on her marry way, if I don't she goes into a rage.

@Sweetheart,

My BPD is very low functioning at home, this is why I have to do so much, she simply is exhausted by "life" and the thought of cooking, cleaning, etc. just overwhelms her. But, that said, I created an environment that she has to do very little. I pay for everything, she doesn't have to work, I help with the baby all day long, etc. But, as a BPD she is NEVER happy, she can't be -- its their nature. And I have tried to get her into a group for PPD, but she refuses and denies she is having trouble -- as a BPD, admitting she is PPD is a an invalidation --

So I am just stuck, talking to her infuriates her, asking her questions infuriates her, the only time she talks is when she wants something from me, then shes nice -- its quite hurtful to me.

[LivingWBPDWife]

This is all like solving a rubiks cube... .frustrating. So, let's see to answer some of the q's.

1. I have to work at home, I have labs built into the house, I do R&:), write books, and things of this nature, my home is designed for work, think Tony Stark.

2. I want to be around my daughter, what's the point of working so hard in life to make enough money to have the freedom to spend time with my daughter and watch her grow if I can't.

3. I am not going to let my wife push me out of my house and create yet another expense.

4. My wife's addition to facebook and texting makes her dangerous since she doesn't pay attention to the baby, in 5 seconds the baby can get hurt, so I have to constantly check in that my wife is paying attention.

And I used the chores and cooking as examples that everyone can relate to, but in general, I can't ask my BPD anything, for example ducks had said this approach works:

a simple SET around household chores would look like this for me.

Support:  I know you have always put your dirty dishes in the sink.  It's just a habit for you

Empathy: I know this is a small thing and may sound silly... .

Truth:  It bugs me to have  your dirty dishes in the sink and mine on the counter top, can we agree to put them in the dishwasher from now on?

WOW - this would send her into a rage, the "its a habit" would be interpreted as an insult, the "I know its a small thing" she would say I am talking down to her, and the last part is the kicker this is "lecturing" and she would blow her top.

I have tried this soo many times, it doesn't work, nothing seems to. The ONLY time I can get something from her is WHEN she approaches me and wants something REALLY bad.

Another poster mentioned something about we are stuck in this parent/child relationship and we are ... .no doubt, but there is a reason -- she acts like a 12 year old. Before baby, during baby, after baby -- she has got her way her whole life, and when she doesn't she rages, pouts, etc.

I don't know -- I feel like I need to talk to a BPD in recovery and ask her to role play and see if I can find a method that pisses her off the least and give that a shot. But, all these canned tactics, sound good, rational, etc. but when I try them, the moment she hears anything she has done, hasn't done, or I want from her -- she explodes.

[123Phoebe]

LivingWBPDWife,

I'm getting the sense that you feel things are pretty hopeless.  That you have tried everything in your power to turn this marriage around.

What if you were to let go of the reins for a little while? 

4. My wife's addition to facebook and texting makes her dangerous since she doesn't pay attention to the baby, in 5 seconds the baby can get hurt, so I have to constantly check in that my wife is paying attention.

I sincerely hope you're not checking up on your wife and baby every 5 seconds? 

I can't tell you what to do.  I'm not a therapist, your wife isn't here to tell us her side of the story. 

There has to be a real desire to want to improve the quality of our relationship, before we can even begin to hope for any positive change.  If there's no hope there's no future.

We have to change.  It's not a bad thing, really!

Do you love your wife?  Do you want a better future for your family?

Have you considered talking to a therapist?  Have you read the book: The High Conflict Couple? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=73976.0

We all have to start somewhere.  Are you up for it?

[goodintentions]

There has to be a real desire to want to improve the quality of our relationship, before we can even begin to hope for any positive change.  If there's no hope there's no future.

I think what 123Phoebe said has been really important for me to learn. When I try to communicate with SET or apply tools (like validation) as a tactic -- to manage the situation -- it rarely works. But if I focus on "leaning in" to the relationship, and expressing genuine care for her instead, I find that the tools are more effective or applicable.

I remember a season when my uBPDw was dealing w/ PPD. All of my attempts to lovingly get her help were met with rage. Then, she came home from lunch with a friend one day, and made a doctor's appointment. A week later she was on medicine and more regulated.

Sometimes I think we are so close to the situation that we don't have the relational trust/equity needed to overcome the familiar cycles of conflict. I have more hope - and relational success - when I focus on what I can change: myself.

I think it's also important to recognize the moments you are burnt out and discouraged - especially with a baby. Do you have any outlets or activities you can do to get a break?

[babyducks]

LivingWBPDWife,

I appreciate the energy and the effort you are putting in to this.

123Phoebe and goodintentions posted good ideas.

I would focus on their comments.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

I understand your predicament. I gave a real life example of such a situation as I was raised in that.  It is a tough situation. Like you, I looked at other mothers and wished mine was like them, but she was not, and nothing I could do could change who she was. The mother I have is the one I have, and I could remain in conflict with her or not.

What you have presented is a sort of stalemate. You want to work at home, yet you are frustrated that your wife isn't stepping up to the plate. This results in you being frustrated because it is hard to work and check on her frequently. You feel you have to check on her because you don't think the baby is safe with her. There are three people involved here, taking on three positions:

You: the wage earner, possible the only competent care taker for the baby, you work at home.

Wife: (according to you) mentally 12, not stepping up to the plate.

Baby: Baby is just that, a baby, and not in a position to change.


From your posts, I hear that you are maintaining your position- it is your ideal office, you want to work at home near your child, and so you are not the one who is going to make a change. Perhaps it isn't fair to you, but any change can only start with the person who wants the change- and that is you. The baby isn't going to change, it seems your wife isn't responding to your requests for her to change.

I understand you feel stuck, but when one is feeling stuck, there doesn't seem to be any way for change. However, you still have choices. The lessons do help but not instantly. Growth takes time. You can take steps towards this. Some changes can result in the other person responding in an angry way. This can happen, and it is important for us to learn to manage our own responses to that.

In the meantime, the baby needs care now. For me, personally, I had little time and energy to consider working on myself or a relationship when I was responsible for a baby. The needs are constant. I did not have the option of another parent or family member to step in to let me take a short break. I also worked part time. The only real option to me was a sitter, or day care for those times. I would have preferred that my kids were with their father more, but that was not going to happen at that time.  I had two choices- burn out, not take care of myself or get a sitter. You may be feeling burned out at the moment, but to be a good parent, we need to be at our best, and not burned out. This is why I made that suggestion- as it can be effective now. The relationship takes time, but being in a better place mentally and physically can help the relationship too.

It may also not seem fair to you to consider this when you wish your wife would- but dishes, household cleaning, can also be done by hiring someone to do this. While neither a sitter or a cleaning service may be your ideal choice, they are possible choices in the case of a stalemate situation- either long term or temporary- with the goal of giving you some time to yourself to recharge. This might be a gift to yourself. Self care is important.

[OffRoad]

The first question I have is how well does your wife read? My h is dyslexic. He can read a lot, but very, very slowly. Reading is a misery for him. If your W is constantly on FB or texting, she might still be a slow reader. If that's the case, she may not want to read out loud to baby.

The second question I have is have you asked her what kind of things she reads about on FB? Ask her some questions. Maybe you can find something she has read about there that she can read to baby. Babies like hearing about recipes. It's all in the way to you read to them. Get your W on board with things SHE would like to read to baby.

This applies to everything. You want to make sure she feeds baby on time? Ask "Say, how long does it take to feed baby? I'd like to read to her after feeding."  or take her for a walk or whatever.  You want her to read to baby? Say " I just saw a site on FB that directs to online childrens stories. Would you check out XXXX and see if "Whatever Book" sounds good?" Or "I was thinking of getting "This Book Series" from the library. You are good with finding things online. Can you check out the reviews?" You want her to clean up her mess? " Could you clean up XX for me? I know what a pain that is, but I'd like to have a clean *whatever* to work with in the morning." Don't mention that it's her mess. She KNOWS that. But she doesn't want YOU reminding her that she is a slob.

Give her some buy in for the things you want done. Make her input important, like it is a favor for you and not a requirement from her. 12 years olds want autonomy and appreciation, too. When was the last time you thanked your W for feeding the baby and told your W how healthy baby looks because W is feeding her so well? I'm not joking, either.

As a child "Put your toys away." got nothing from me. "Will you put your toys away for mommy." or "Can you get X off the floor for mommy so sister won't hurt herself." got everything.

We all want to feel like our contributions, no matter how small, are appreciated.

[LivingWBPDWife]

A lot of different comments, but let me see if I can address them.

1. I will take a look at the high conflict book.

2. My wife reads just fine, she went to medical school, she can read a children's book, she simply doesn't want to now, nor do anything.

3. She was like this before the baby, this behavior of being lazy isn't new, she didn't want to work, she clean up, she won't brush her teeth, she won't pick up her clothes, its literally like living with a child. I have tried oh so many ways to get her to do stuff, but no matter how I phrase it she doesn't like being told what to do or reminded to do something.

4. Like many BPDs she starts off in love with something, a person, idea, whatever, then after 4-6 months she HATES it -- I mean like HATES it -- she says she never liked it, and didn't know why she did it. This is the dynamic with the baby, I can see the torture internalized within her, on one hand she knows this is the one time she HAS to step up, but she HATES it now.

5. I help her all day and night, always have, cook for her, clean for her, whatever. I am always trying to get her to help out or collaborate, I say "hey what do you want to do about this, come up with a plan" -- doesn't matter IF anything requires work or effort she doesn't want to do it. This level of entitlement aside from BPD comes from her childhood, she had maids and nannys, she never cooked for herself, made the bed, she turned her room into a pig sty each day and someone would clean it for her -- So, this pattern is STILL around in her 30's, and I give her a LOT of slack for the baby, of course, but when she has hours to play with facebook then she has hours to be mom and wife. I simply am not going to enable and make excuses for her to that level -- she has to pull "some" weight. And like I said, if this all happened all of a sudden since the birth of the baby, I would be like wow, but this is 6 years, and of course coupled with BPD its almost a no win.

6. We are in therapy, and I talk to a BPD survivor therapist, our couples therapist has to walk on egg shells, he is just trying to teach me, and her how to talk -- its slow progress. And I am the one that reached out to the therapists and got us into it. She never takes any action herself or does anything for fear of failure or rejection I would imagine.

[Notwendy]

This sounds like a tough situation. I'm wondering how she got as far as medical school, because even getting through a pre-med curriculum requires taking hard classes, and the ability to make a plan and achieve it.

Even though she had these behaviors before the baby, her disinterest in the baby makes me wonder about post partum depression.

I am glad to see that you are both in therapy.


The book " Stop Caretaking the Borderline" explains this better. Caretaking is doing something for someone that they are capable of doing themselves, and a 12 year old can keep her room clean.

I see two issues here. One is the baby, the other is you and your wife. Whenever there are three individuals involved, there is the potential  for the drama triangle and the three roles in it.  "Victim" allows people to not look at their own contribution to the behavior, and they also rationalize their own behavior. If one is taking the "victim" position in an argument, it is ineffective- and doing too much for someone can make us feel like victims.  You are doing all this stuff for your wife, you think she should do something for you, and that is understandable, but when in conflict that can place you in victim, rescuer, or persecutor position.

This isn't to be critical- you are doing your best. It is just to point out that the triangle roles are not the most effective for solving conflict and that learning about this may help you be more effective.

The baby is in this too, but not voluntarily. When you "rescue " the baby from her, you get on to the drama triangle. Baby can be in persecutor role too, if she is tired or cranky. But of the three of you, there is only one potential true victim: the baby- because the baby is helpless, dependent, and has no choice. You and your wife do.

Regardless of the conflict between you and your wife, the baby needs to be kept safe. I don't know what you will decide about that. However, in order for your wife to step up to the plate to take care of herself, you need to stop doing it. If she won't brush her teeth, you can choose let the dentist tell her about that. If her personal belongings are a mess, then that's her things. I would consult your T about how to do this, but continuing to do for her what she can do for herself may keep the two of you in this situation. It is hard to look at ourselves as contributors to this, but we are, and until we can take a look at our role in perpetuating it, things are not likely to change. This may not seem fair, but in many cases, it is the non who can lead the marriage to a better emotional state by taking account of their contribution to the dysfunction.

[LivingWBPDWife]

@NotWendy,

I wish it was all as easy as that

I try not doing things for her many time, I am ALL about tough love, I am a CEO in my real life. I will fire someone at the drop of a pin if they f up. That said, I have tried oohhh so many times to just see how FAR she will go -- and trust me, its AMAZING what someone will let go and be "ok" with. 22 cavities last dental appointment, 11 fillings cost me $2200. So, I end up paying for that... .

Not cleaning up -- sure, I end up tripping all over everything, food rots in the fridge, etc.

Starving herself -- she will literally hold her breath and not eat until she is sick and has a headache if you don't cook for her. I have tried, then what happens is she won't eat all day, or eat nothing, but cereal, and then my baby eats like crap via breast milk, so I get blackmailed into cooking for her constantly. And don't get me started on $1500+ we spend a month on organic food, and there is "nothing" to eat. She simply "thinks" about everything you ask her to do, and runs thru it, and realizes it will be boring, not fun, tiring, and then she won't want to do it.

So, short of starving her, living in a pigsty, and letting her teeth fall out while I pay $1000s in dental bills (and these are just small examples), I get blackmailed into doing these things. And yes, the baby is definitely a leverage point for my BPDwife... .

Anyway, the more and more I try things, and talk to BPD survivors, the more I realize how futile this is... .I would guess that only a small percentage of nons can find a way to survive with their BPD partners, but the majority of us slowly sink as we try everything and exhaust ourselves, finances and emotions.

I literally can't imagine a day living with an "adult" wife that TELLS ME WHAT TO DO -- WOW, I would love that -- hey, you forgot your keys, or please pick up your dirty underwear, whatever --

Its just really hard realizing that not only is she a child, but her emotional tolerance for any kind of discussion about it, or rationalization is non-existant, so its like she has a free get out of jail card where the very thing she needs to improve, the act of talking about it to her makes her more angry.

And finally, the T's suggestions don't work -- when we are therapy she goes along with it, then when I try it, she just says stop talking to me like that.

My BPD hates doing ANYTHING that isn't "fun" -- the only time she will clean things, work hard, etc. is if 1. she MUST for life and death, 2. someone she is trying to look "normal" to is going to see how childish she is. And that's really about it.


Like today, as a result of her lack of personal care she has a headache -- news flash, happens when you don't eat or drink, but she spent HOURS on facebook and texting... .

Anyway, she complains out loud, so I try SET, and other things:

her: My head really hurts.

me: sweetie, I am really sorry that you don't feel good.

her: nothing... .

me: I know how that feels, sucks, I get migraines all the time.

her: I know, your headaches must be 10x worst than mine, you think for a living, and poor old me doesn't do anything, so your head hurts more than mine... .

WOW -- she has already created a whole fiction to compare, contrast, put herself down, and feel worst... .anyway, moving on... .

me: why don't you let me get you something safe for the baby that you can take.

her: I don't want anything.

me: Are you sure?

her: YES! Stop asking me.

Now at this point, I am trying to decide to just walk away and let her suffer, but if I do then she will say you don't care by the time I get out of the room... .So, I decide to roll the dice and offer something else... .rather than take door #1 which is sure rage that I am not helping her.

me: sweetie, ok, well, what about I rub your head a bit, that always seems to help, or your neck... .

her: just forget it in total anger, as if I CAUSED the headache.

This happened today, and happens whenever she doesn't feel good. She has ZERO empathy or sympathy for me, but if she has a cold, WOW its the end of the WORLD -- I have tried countless ways to try and make her happy, but its as if she doesn't want help since that would take her out the hate state... .

I feel like not only do BPDs have terrible or non-existent emotional regulation, but I think they might get "high" or an endorphin release by these kinds of exchanges... I am going to look into this. I have never seen anything, that LIKES to suffer, but she LOVES it.

Maybe she is afraid of feeling good, its uncharted territory and when you feel good, that means something or someone is inevitably going to make you feel bad, so feeling bad all the time is "safer" and a more protected and familiar feeling for the BPD?... .seems so to me.

[babyducks]

LivingWBPDWife,

You're right.   

It's not easy.

You are describing someone who is willing to jeopardize her own health and the health of her child.  Which goes against just about every natural instinct Mother Nature endows us with.

That's a serious mental illness.   A very serious mental illness.

This is a cut and paste from Lesson Five

Change isn't easy. The way you feel about your partner  (radical acceptance) - the way you listen to them (empathetic listening) - how you communicate (emotional validation) - and finally, how you respond to them (boundaries and time outs) - all of it needs to change for things to get better.

Our emotional responses are always up to us. We do have choices. We aren't puppets on a string. We can learn to stop following and participating in the dysfunctional dance our partners are trying to lead us on. We can choose to start a new dance, and stick with it, hoping our partners will soon follow us.

It is easy to get stuck at different points along the way. To feel boxed in and trapped. To fear change so much that it just seems easier to stay and take the abuse.

Where do you think you are stuck at?

* radical acceptance

* empathetic listening

* emotional validation

* boundaries and time outs

If empathetic listening, validation, boundaries and times outs aren't working at this stage of the mental illness, what you have left, by default, is radical acceptance.

Radical acceptance to me means embracing the practical realties of the illness I am living with.   In all it's unpleasantness.   I don't have to like it.   The pain I feel about it is directional proportional to the amount of resistance I have against it.   

I can put on my emotional armor and protect myself by managing my own expectations.   When the illness is out of control that is my first line of defense.

Is it fair?   Probably not.   Is it hard?   Yes.   

Is it going to get better.  Overnight ?  No.

would you like to try working on radical acceptance?

'ducks

[goateeki]

I didn't read every post and someone might already have asked this but -- is she on medication? 

She sounds to me like the most unmotivated individual in the world.  I blast out of bed every day and hustle to get things done, and I like the feeling of it.  I like falling into bed exhausted by the day.  And I think that most people are like this -- they like to move and act and do.  Your wife sounds like someone who has no motivation to do at all. 

I understand that there are medications that help with motivation.  I am struck by just how little she does. Perhaps she's very, very depressed?

[Notwendy]

I'm not a professional, but my impression of this- the lack of interest in any self care, or letting the house get to truly unsanitary conditions is a symptom of serious depression.  Even my mother, who I think is quite far on the BPD spectrum does not neglect her personal hygiene. If so, then you are correct, trying things to motivate her/alter her behavior will not work well with a depressed person.

I hope she is in T and that you can bring these concerns up with the T. Also consider, if this was, heaven forbid, a physical illness, would you think she had personal control over this, or that you had control over this?

Regardless of if we are living with someone who is mentally healthy or not, being a family member of someone who needs significant care also includes self care. Even parents of physically/emotionally demanding children are advised to take some respite if possible- arrange care/household help, even for a short while - to take a break and nourish their own selves.

Staying home all day can result in your feeling trapped. Yet, the decision to work at home is yours. You say "you refuse to let her drive you out of your home". This is, in a sense, blaming her for your own decision.  It is hard, it isn't fair, - but it is what it is at the moment- but that still leaves you with choices. I don't have a solution for you. I know that my father did take steps to take some time to himself- go to lunch, work, outside the home and that this was something he enjoyed. We kids were not worse off because we had sitters, nor did he miss time with us. On airplanes, they say, "put your oxygen mask on first".

Another question to ask yourself is if your caring for your wife while feeling resentful is really good for you and if it is good for her. If she is really beyond taking care of herself, then she may need more medical intervention, and even a home health person who could do that care without resenting it. But mostly, IMHO, I think she needs a good medical evaluation and help- even if you have already done this. It does not seem to be working if she is still not interested in her personal hygiene.

[OffRoad]

I agree with notwendy that it may be time for a good medical evaluation. As angry and frustrated as you are coming across in your posts, your W has to be picking up on that. Honestly, it sounds like even if she did do something, it wouldn't be enough for you at this point. I could see her thinking "Why bother doing anything since it isn't good enough." At least, that is how I feel reading what you post.

As a suggestion, perhaps your W NEEDS for you to get out of the house and give her some space. Having someone judging her all day long can't be healthy. If she has been this way for the entire 6 years you have been together (That is the impression I have gotten, correct me if I am wrong), that means it is quite possible you have been angry about her not taking care of herself for all of this time as well. If that is true, neither of you are in a good mental health place right now. And baby is getting the short end of the stick, no matter who takes care of her.

I have one more suggestion regarding the headache exchange. SET is Support, Empathy, Truth.

her: My head really hurts.

me: sweetie, I am really sorry that you don't feel good. (Empathy-good)

her: nothing... .At this point, support from you would have been good-would you like something for the headache, mentioning NOTHING about it being safe for baby. By mentioning anything about getting something that would be safe for baby, you are telling her she is too stupid to know what is safe for baby and only YOU know what to get. Just don't do it. Or you could have simply said, "Here, let me rub your head and see if it helps any." This can only work if you haven't already invalidated her.

me: I know how that feels, sucks, I get migraines all the time. Here you are one upping her. She has a headache. But hey! You have them ALL THE TIME. And YOURS are MIGRAINES, so they are much worse than hers! Do you see how you invalidated how bad her head hurts at the moment? If you don't, that could be part of the problem.  A better line might have been "It really stinks when a headache gets bad."

her: I know, your headaches must be 10x worst than mine, you think for a living, and poor old me doesn't do anything, so your head hurts more than mine... .And there it is. You just told her that you get migraines all the time, thereby negating the severity of her headache in her mind.

If you read here, you will find the only person you can change is you. If you keep doing what you have always done, you will keep getting what you have always gotten. Try capping her data on the phone. If she has a headache because she hasn't eaten or drank anything, calmly, and without rancor,  let her know she may not be aware of it, but she has neglected to eat or drink anything that day and some food might help. Then drop it and walk away. Get some formula for baby, and take a turn or two feeding baby. Plenty of infants do just fine with formula.  

You didn't break her and you can't fix her. All I can suggest is to accept her as she is and either learn how to interact in ways that work, or decide you don't have that capacity and go from there.

[LivingWBPDWife]

Lots of good attempts here Let me see if I can address some of them.

1. She is definitely depressed, from the day I met her, this is how we started on this BPD journey, I thought she was severely depressed, she was tired all the time, never wanted to do anything, I had to "give" her energy to get her motivated, basically a zombie. She would get up for work and just be bla all day.However, she wanted to KEEP me, so she admitted something was wrong, we went to a doctor, checked hormones, she was so out of whack I couldn't believe she was upright, we worked on them for 3 years, until getting starting to get pregnant. After her depression stayed, but her highs and low reduced and she stopped self harm (now I know this is part of the BPD).

2. Let's see, she goes out all the time, 2-3 times a week she goes to friends, they come over, she goes shopping, I only limit things if she is making a bad decision -- remember BPDs don't think about actions and reactions they only think about self, so she makes a LOT of decisions that are based on nothing, but self validation, and many of these decisions are dangerous to the people around her, me, baby, or our finances. But, I am the prisoner, I haven't gone to see a friend in 12 months, I am in breach on multiple contracts, and behind 1.5 years on a product development. That's how much time goes into this and I am sure many others are in the same boat.

Now, one poster commented on this:

me: I know how that feels, sucks, I get migraines all the time. Here you are one upping her. She has a headache. But hey! You have them ALL THE TIME. And YOURS are MIGRAINES, so they are much worse than hers! Do you see how you invalidated how bad her head hurts at the moment? If you don't, that could be part of the problem.  A better line might have been "It really stinks when a headache gets bad."

The thing is, I could have done something different, she still would get mad -- for example, the comment about I get migraines, is to show empathy, to put myself in her shoes, and its true. If I did NOT say it, then she would have said something like "you don't know how this feels, you have no idea what you are talking about" which she does all the time. The BPD believe as part of their pathology that no one else in the world feels anything, we have no idea what's going on, the whole world is against them...

So, in hindsight, we can analyze the exchange, but I am of the belief that nothing will work, I have tried countless permutations.

Let's see on the medications -- no none, we are 100% organic, I would like to get her on something light at some point, but after breast feeding. And I don't like formula, that's a whole other subject, and there is nothing that compares to a mother's milk for nutritional value, immune system response, and countless studies prove without a doubt, the longer babies are breast feed the higher their IQs, and the stronger their immune systems are -- so unless it was an emergency, we wouldn't use formula, in fact, we donate milk (have) to other mothers that refuse to give formula, but have trouble producing. Alas, we have to keep her off drugs for now.

What else, we are in couples therapy, but its VERY hard (refer to this board on this subject and videos) to get someone into therapy, I am trying to do it on the down low, step by step.

Let's see... .oh, yes, someone mentioned she sounds like the laziest person on earth - she is - we are polar opposites, I run a company, have energy up the ying yang, she is always tired, always depressed -- now, aside from the BPD and her serious mental state -- I still believe an element of EVERYONE's healthy mental state is feeling useful, and unique -- I spent a lifetime doing this in school, and I feel good about my work, past, present, future, but she doesn't have a passion, nothing, so she never gets "good" at anything, and it breaks my heart, but its also part of the BPD and a factor that intensifies it because she can't stick to anything to get good at it. Thus, she is forever sucking at everything, and if she would just stick it out, she could get better -- what's the stat, 7000 hours to become expert at something? She puts in 500 at most then gives up, and the cycle repeats.

That's about it -- ironically again she has a headache tonight -- she wouldn't eat, I had to cook for her again, I had to make her drink water, and she has been staring at the iPhone and texting the last 4 hours WHILE on the phone with another girl complaining about her husband Its poetic -- So, she is starving, dehydrated, staring at tiny little pixels --

Its like a B sci-fi movie, where you see all these fat, sick, dying people plugged into computers, but then in the VR world, they are young, hot, healthy -- I AM LIVING THIS -- she is not taking care of herself, but her internet life is "perfect" and now is a drug to her, so add that to BPD and its scary... .

I am sure many other BPDs of loved ones have similar affairs with internet, facebook, etc. since it allows them to always feel good, look good, forever, be perfect. 2D life.

[123Phoebe]

Wow, LivingW,

I don't know what to say?  Other than it sounds like you are one unhappy camper.  It's coming across here, loud and clear.  Think your wife might realize she's not the girl of your dreams, either?

[waverider]

LivingWBPDWife

I too live with a low functioning wife, I have a slightly different take on this.

The main issue is that the unfairness drives you nuts. Sure depression may have a hand in it, but to be honest it can be a bit of chicken and egg happening. If someone does virtually nothing they get little sense of achievement, no sense of pride or progress and hence no point to live. This in itself can create depression and a lack of self worth.

Sure the tools here are good at oiling the works of the relationship wheel. However all the validation in the world will not cause a busted or missing cog to start turning properly.

What you have is busted motivation. most likely all her motivation is driven by impulse, need and instant gratification. The motivators of responsibility and obligation are almost entirely missing to the point of being an alien concept. These motivators have probably never been there in any strength, so you can't recover them no matter the diplomatic sweet talking. It would take long term professional therapy to boost these to reasonable levels. Yet the lack of responsibility and obligation means she is unlikely to undergo this work.

So what are you to do? First off is probably to accept that she is unlikely to change in the short term, so you need to get the issue off your mind as much as possible, so that you can get on with life with less resentment.

To do this you need to make a decision about what needs to be done, take on the responsibility and just do it. Things that are not essential just leave. Make YOUR life as efficient as possible. Yes a lot of this will appear to be enabling, but there comes a point were there is no point flogging a lame horse.

The aim is to reduce resentment and pressure, as the more you push the less she will contribute. Making excuses becomes auto reaction, so even less gets done, and she talks herself into being even more incapable than she is.

it comes down to Acceptance, and acceptance often means "fairness' goes out the window. She may be dysfunctional but there is no need for you to become dysfunctional by association. It matters not if the relationship is dysfunctional, just as long as it is not filled with resentment and conflict.

In short there are no magic words of wisdom or tools that will turn her into somebody she isn't. If you want to make the RS work than you have to recognize her disabled capabilities for what they are and concentrate on making your life as rewarding as possible and just enjoy her company at least if that is all she can provide.

Find your reward even if it is simply huge chunks of time to pursue an interest of yours. If this is your trade for not nagging her to do what she can't do, she will ultimately accept that, and this 'pay off" of yours will prevent resentment building as much.

"You can't teach a duck to bark you will only get frustrated and piss off the duck" =lose/lose

[waverider]

Wow, LivingW,

I don't know what to say?  Other than it sounds like you are one unhappy camper.  It's coming across here, loud and clear.  Think your wife might realize she's not the girl of your dreams, either?

I am sure your wife hears this message too, which gives her another excuse to be less motivated, as even the need to impress you is not there as she knows she can't ie. she gets no gratification out of the effort.

The resentment perpetuates the staus quo

Often when she does do things it is as a need for reward/approval. Ultimately for her own need, not out of responsibility. So they will be minimum effort high profile actions as apposed to quietly performed responsibilities. eg Buy a treat rather than sweep the yard

[nonbpdis-m]

I real don't know what's worse as my situation is slightly different. Apart from when my BPD gf has a complete meltdown and stops functioning, cleaning, looking after the baby, going out etc. she is obsessive about doing things in a frantic and disorganised manner, making me feel guilty for sitting down after working all day.  However this is clearly a ploy in order to find an excuse for when she does explode.  She can use the 'I do everything you do absolutely nothing you're a waste of space ' card to validate her inner turmoil and let it all out on me.  Its almost premeditated.  I can assure everyone on here that I do plenty around the house and for the baby and other children whilst working full time. 

[waverider]

I real don't know what's worse as my situation is slightly different. Apart from when my BPD gf has a complete meltdown and stops functioning, cleaning, looking after the baby, going out etc. she is obsessive about doing things in a frantic and disorganised manner, making me feel guilty for sitting down after working all day.  However this is clearly a ploy in order to find an excuse for when she does explode.  She can use the 'I do everything you do absolutely nothing you're a waste of space ' card to validate her inner turmoil and let it all out on me.  Its almost premeditated.  I can assure everyone on here that I do plenty around the house and for the baby and other children whilst working full time. 

Again motivation is not responsibility but the "need" to prove a point, to prove she is capable, not because the jobs need doing.This feeds her resentment at having to do them as her reasons for doing them are skewed. She is in martyr mode.

Very likely she makes a show of doing it front of you or at least listing off what she has done,so that you are made aware. That is her need.

[Notwendy]

She can't take medication because she is producing milk for other babies ( as well as your own)?  And, you won't consider this because formula isn't as nutritious as mother's milk, yet your wife is a new mother who seems so depressed that she isn't eating or drinking?

I understand that you wish for the best start in life for your baby. Since you seem interested this topic, there are a number of articles on the effects of maternal depression on child development that you may wish to read.

The best thing for a baby is a mentally and physically healthy parent or caretaker. Your wife won't even drink water without you? Does she even have the will to live?

You feel trapped? I wonder how she feels if her options for medical treatment are limited. IMHO, she needs medical help. I understand your wish for her to produce quality milk ( while you have to force her to eat and drink ), but making milk at the risk of her health may not be in her best interest.