How lies affect your abilty to respect

[Turkish]

People,.BPD or not, can live in the grey areas, or the in-betweens. My Ex did for a while, compartmentalizing her life. Of course he can't legally marry you unless he's divorced. Aside from everything else, even his r/s with your D, that's the kicker.

[unicorn2014]

Turkish, which begs the question why did he propose before he filed? I guess that's the hard question I have to ask him, and tomorrow morning will not be the time. I actually had to ask him to stop calling me his bride because it was upsetting to me since he was still married. Its like what a couple of other posters have alluded to, he sees me as his wife therefore he thinks it doesn't matter that he's legally married to someone else. It not only matters to me, but to his wife and the legal system too. It almost seems like he's delusional, although I know he's not. I think this is more a BPD feelings create facts kind of thing, but if I point that out to him he'll vehemently deny it. Sometimes I feel like a prisoner because I'm engaged to a man who can't marry me. I'm going to have eventually tell him that too, but that will really set him off, so tomorrow morning is also not the time for that. Tomorrow morning I will merely state the facts, I called the county clerk office again, asked about you, nothing turned up, said you said you filed, they said if you had something would've turned up immediately. I'll remind him I'm going back to therapy to deal with this, that when I left therapy in August I did not know that he had not filed. That of course will set him off because he will claim he has. I think I will let the facts speak for themselves. I'm certainly not making any decisions without the help of a t.

[Turkish]

Stating the facts is good. Like others have said, though, what's the motivation here? To catch him in a lie is like he playing a "Kick Me" game. Like being the Parent, catching a little kid in a lie. Though you have a lot invested, going that route may not be entirely healthy either, trying to "catch" him. However, you want and need to know the truth.

You're emotionally invested. You're also mad, understandably so, not knowing the truth. Instead of The Parent response, what's the Adult (wisemind) response?

[unicorn2014]

Turkish, actually right now I feel nothing. I don't really want to catch him in a lie. I think I simply want to tell him I called the county clerk again, asked about him again, told them he said he filed, and tell him what their response was. If he says he filed I will tell him I can't deal with this on my own so we will talk about it again after I've established a relationship with a new therapist. That's what my wise mind tells me.

[waverider]

A lot of the problems with needing to have a lie acknowledged is the belief that it will help you understand why, when it seems there was no point to it in the first place.

Lies for no real obvious reasons simply make you feel like you are unimportant, as though they simply dont care whether you know the truth or not. As though it is their business and non of yours... Kind of "hey stay out of my life"

It is hard to have a relationship with someone who operates on a "need to know" principle based on meeting their needs,and totally ignoring yours. It is hard to feel like you are even on the same team

[formflier]

My dad reminded me that I said I would give my fiancé until moved out to my state to straighten this out and I'm going to remind me fiance of this. He has a little over a month to file, or tell me why he hasn't.  

Unicorn2014,

I wish you the best today!  Most likely won't be able to check in until later this evening.

Consider staying away from deadlines, unless you are going to hold a deadline.  Otherwise you are training your fiancee to understand that deadlines are not deadlines.


Also, before you call today, try to think through how much you want to "get into" the subject.  Shorter, more to the point, conversations usually go better with pwBPD traits.

Longer ones tend to get off track.

Focus on staying centered, staying calm... . You can do this!

FF

[unicorn2014]

Wave rider, those are excellent thoughts and I may write them down and take them to my meeting with my fiancé. In addition I just discovered an old dbt worksheet from 2 years ago where I was sad that my fiancé hung up on me because I told him I wanted to tell my therapist that he told me was moving out to my state in April. This was April 2 years ago. He still has not moved. I woke up angry at 3am, and I pulled out my dbt binder and found that. I discovered another lie. I can not believe this.

[unicorn2014]

Wave rider, I should add that my fiancé has totally attacked me for these very same issues, saying I'm not a team player and I act like I don't want him in my life. Now I know he was projecting. This makes me really mad.

[unicorn2014]

For flier, thanks. I'm really pissed now, both from what I read in my dbt sheet from January 2 years ago and from what I just learned from wave riders post. My fiancé has totally been projecting all over me. It is textbook, straight out of walking on eggshells. I am so mad. My fiancé used to say I would read books and apply them to him or make them fit. He is so wrong. They do fit. I agree with you about deadlines and I'm really pissed about that too. I feel like have another child and that's really funny considering my fiancé used to denigrate my child's father saying he was like another child.

This topic is making me remember all the old feelings I suppressed from two years ago.

It was my fiancé who trained me not to take deadlines seriously. He's been telling me he's moving out to my area for over two years. I remember talking to my former therapist about this who is now seeing my fiancé. My finances moving timeline really pissed me off. I can not believe this is happening. 

[Daniell85]

Hopefully you can step away from that stuff a bit so you can go into your discussion on facetime in a calmer frame of mind. I don't know if it's possible to gain radical acceptance in a few hours.

As it sounds like he has not be on track like he promised, what are you intending to present to him as goals moving forward? You have Plan B since Plan A hasn't gone well?


I wish you the best and that your mind and feelings are calm and clear when you talk to him 

[ForeverDad]

How soon are you planning to marry?  As a matter of law, I don't think you can marry before he's divorced.  While some divorces can take just a few months, many here have had divorces that took a year, two years or even longer.  My divorce, from filing to final decree, was 23.5 months.  Clearly, with him being the one dragging his feet (and his spouse not filing either) he doesn't have any desire to be remarried anytime soon.  That's how I see it, how do you see it?

I may be jaded but I've also seen people get burned, at least from my perspective.  My SIL finally settled on a boyfriend in her early to mid 20s.  (While they probably had their assorted issues, I doubt either of them had PDs.)  He was getting divorced and had children from the marriage.  They moved in together and lived in his parents' home.  He was still getting divorced.  They had a baby.  He was still getting divorced.  They had another baby.  He was still getting divorced.  Their kids were older and attended school.  He was still getting divorced.  After 8-10 years his divorce was finally final.  They still didn't get married.  When they went to another state and bought a home together they finally married, not for love but for financial reasons.

As I wrote, I don't think either of them was obstructive or disordered.  Apparently marriage was not a big deal for them.  What about you?  How do you view engagement and marriage?  If they mean a lot to you then it will surely be hard living halfway between engagement and marriage for what might turn out to be years.  Do you really think he views them the same?

The FOG has been mentioned here.  O stands for obligation.  You mentioned that many friends and relatives know of the engagement.  So is that part of your reluctance to step back from the relationship now, being in the marriage spotlight, in addition to not having a counselor right now?

The point I'm making is that IF the relationship does fail, it would be better for it to occur before the marriage than after the marriage.  While breaking an engagement is hard, going through a divorce is much harder.

[unicorn2014]

Forever Dad, thank you for your comment. I am divorced, previously I was married to a man with untreated bipolar disorder as well as alcoholism and addiction issues and I have a 14 year old daughter from that relationship.

My fiancé still maintains that he filed so he's going to talk to his lawyer on Monday and we're going to talk about it again on Wednesday. I talked to him about several points that people raised here and told him I was not in any position to be making any decision without a therapist, so that was off the table.

Engagement and marriage are very important to me. My friends and family would not be surprised if I called off the engagement. They all know he hasn't filed for divorce yet, even though he says he has. I think for now this issue is going to have to wait.

I should add that currently we are in a LDR so marriage isn't even an option right now.

[formflier]

It was my fiancé who trained me not to take deadlines seriously. He's been telling me he's moving out to my area for over two years. I remember talking to my former therapist about this who is now seeing my fiancé. My finances moving timeline really pissed me off. I can not believe this is happening. 

So, it would seem that for the majority of your r/s "deadlines" have been slipping.

Is this correct?  (Honestly... .want to make sure that I'm understanding the situation correctly)


Divorce filing, moving.  Are there other things that are promised but don't happen?

These things make you mad, which would seem to indicate they are a big deal.  Correct?

Just want to make sure I have this right before making further observations.

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, you have it correct except for the making me mad part. I am not mad today. I went and saw a nurse and got some medication to help me sleep and saw a social worker for talk therapy to help me deal with the anxiety this situation is causing.  I have decided to practice radical acceptance around this issue because right now the pros of staying in the relationship outweigh the cons of leaving it.  I am currently reading through the workshop on radical acceptance and once I am done with  that reading I will either reply there or start a new thread here. Radical acceptance is something I worked hard on in DBT and I will be taking another DBT course as well to help me through this difficult period of my life. I should add that my fiancé is not the only person that is stressing me out, I have other stressful factors as well which ironically  enough he is helping mitigate, hence the pros outweighing the cons at this point.

[formflier]

 

So, what are you radically accepting?


What are the pros of being in the r/s?


FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I am radically accepting that my fiance said he filed for divorce and the court said he didn't. The pros of staying in the r/s are I like my fiance, I enjoy his company, he's funny, warm, engaging, endearing, smart, talented, my daughter likes him, my family likes him, my church likes him, my community likes him, he's a good cook, he's handsome, he's wise, he's helpful, he's caring.

[Turkish]

Dealing with what you feel is something only you can deal with. It might be time to state the truth instead of beating around the bush:

"Fiancée: you're a married man. I can't won't marry a married man."

Throw the ball completely into his court.

[unicorn2014]

Turkish, I did tell him something along those lines today. I'm giving him an opportunity to talk to his lawyer. We had another conversation today about another issue which another member had posted about. I actually was able to tell my fiance something I learned from this board. As a result of this board I also went and saw a social worker and will be taking another dbt class. I also talked to my dad again. I think my biggest challenge right now is forgive what happened before my fiance started taking medication and started working with a sponsor. I actually printed out the radical acceptance article and I realized I got that in my last dbt class. 

[waverider]

You will find radical acceptance comes more as an evolution, rather than as a decision. There is quite a lag between saying the words and instinctively feeling them. Being aware of the process is the first step.

What I am getting at is don't be too down on yourself if in the heat of the moment it all seems to go out the window. It is in effect a personality change, and that takes time

[formflier]

Formflier, I am radically accepting that my fiance said he filed for divorce and the court said he didn't.  

There are a lot of pros to staying in the r/s.  This is good.  There really are some good things there... .sounds like a great guy.

The "others" that you are talking about radically accepting seems a bit "focused" or "narrow" (In my opinion) for long term success.

I would suggest that if you are able to RA that many times there will be things he says, which don't seem to add up with the "facts" that you are able to assemble, and if you are ok with that.  Then, I think that is a good RA.  

In other words, it's part of his personality rather than a one time/one issue thing.

Same thing for deadlines.

I'll share a personal example.  My wife's core issue is paranoia.  It would be too "narrow" or "focused" if I radically accepted that she believed I was secretly in love with (fill in the name).  

That is a one time event.

Unfortunately, paranoia affects the way she perceives the world.  It's part of per personality.  She sees conspiracies everywhere and paints me into them... .often.

Yes, tools have made this better.  I'm confident I can work through this.  But, she is who she is.  Nothing in my plan for the future is contingent on my wife not being paranoid

So, if you can get to a point where you are ok with your future being "OK" with a guy where many times, randomly, with no seeming explanation, the stories about (fill in the blank) don't add up and that promised deadlines often slip.

Then, I think you are on the right track.

Focusing too narrowly, IMO, will set you up for future frustration.

Thoughts?

FF

[unicorn2014]

You will find radical acceptance comes more as an evolution, rather than as a decision. There is quite a lag between saying the words and instinctively feeling them. Being aware of the process is the first step.

What I am getting at is don't be too down on yourself if in the heat of the moment it all seems to go out the window. It is in effect a personality change, and that takes time

Thank you wave rider, that's why I'm doing dbt again, I need help too. I may post about thinking I was in one r/s and finding out I was in another one. Yesterday  I had a really irritating phone conversation with my fiancé that's really bothering me today.

[unicorn2014]

Form flier, I've read elsewhere about accepting that your partner lies and I don't know if I can do that. Yes, I hear what you're saying. It's a general behavior pattern and not a specific issue. He claims he has problems with institutions and I think his wife even backed him up on it. I think it may due to his learning disability. I also think it may be b/s and maybe his wife enabled him all those years.

In terms of his charm, yes he has many attractive and alluring qualities. Some have even said he seduced me in the beginning of our r/s.

Regardless of all that he has proved himself with my daughter, family, church, community and sometimes even me. So because of that I want to give him another chance. He's a flawed human being. I know he's trying, I know he knows he has problems.

It is very hard for me to accept things as they are.

[ForeverDad]

So the time is past for him to keep saying, "The court is wrong, I did the paperwork."  That won't work any more.  That should only work once and then it gets old very quick.  Now is the time for him to say, "Well, court says they never got it so I will have the lawyer file it this week and he will give me copies showing it was received, timestamped and filed with the court and I'll share those copies with you."  If he continues to drag it out then that would be a growing concern you mustn't ignore.

Clearly this is very low on his priority list.  Yet it affects so many things.  Depending on his state's laws, his spouse may have a right to anything he owns.  So until this is resolved you shouldn't own anything jointly with him.  Also, he should be filing his annual tax forms either "Married Filing Separately" or "Married Filing Jointly" if a divorce case and Final Decree didn't happen.  Hmm, I wonder how he and his spouse filed earlier this year... .

[unicorn2014]

Forever Dad, he told me he is now looking for a new divorce attorney. I did ask him about how he filed and he said he was filing separately. He hasn't filed personal taxes yet. He's hedging about having his lawyer file. When I told him to have his lawyer file this week and give him copies showing it was received, timestamped and filed with the court he said that is not where it was at. He's acting like he doesn't know what I'm talking about or he's being sarcastic, saying he already knows I want those copies. I guess now I have to let him find a new lawyer?

I think this thread is going to get locked soon since its so long. I'm going to start a new one about not having the r/s I thought I had, I wrote a rough draft of the first paragraph. I'm still reading through the workshop on radical acceptance and then I will either reply to that or start a new thread on that as well.

[myself]

Unicorn, how have his lies affected your ability to respect him?

[unicorn2014]

Myself, probably pretty severely since he accuses me of devaluing and dismissing him all the time now. On Saturday when I tried to talk to him about how I thought I was in one r/s and then found out I was in another one first he tried to accuse me of doing the same thing and then when that didn't work he accused me of devaluing and dismissing him. I'm tried to remind him that just because he feels that way it doesn't actually mean I'm doing it but that fell on deaf ears too.

I have to say it feels so good to have somewhere I can come to talk about these issues without being told to leave the r/s, or asked what I'm going to do, or being told there's something wrong with me for me being in a r/s like this. I really appreciate it when people read and reply to my posts without judging me or putting me down. I find it to be a real relief.

[formflier]

  I really appreciate it when people read and reply to my posts without judging me or putting me down. I find it to be a real relief.

I'm glad you are finding relief here.

Some of the posts here (mine are most likely in this category) that seem to be pushing for a choice are not judging you.

The judgement is that a certain path (choice) does not lend itself well to being a long term stayer and being "happy" long term or being content, satisfied (use the term you want).

That is why I believe that relatively soon you need to come to a decision about how you will view your r/s and work on that.

So, a view that says I am in a r/s with an interesting, funny guy that has issues with what I see as the truth... .but I am ok with that.    I can see that view working out long term.

I can also see a view working out that says "I am going to be in a r/s that values honesty and follow through on "deals".  I can see you being satisfied by going down this path and having action that matches this worldview.

I suspect there will be in turmoil inside of you as long as you stay on the path of your happiness and satisfaction coming from him following through on promises.

Note how deftly he has shifted things so now you have to wait on HIM getting a new lawyer

Very slick... .

I believe ForeverDad had some concerns about conman type "always having an answer" things... .

I have slid closer to ForeverDad's view now.  (FD... if I am wrong... .please correct)

FF

[unicorn2014]

Some of the posts here (mine are most likely in this category) that seem to be pushing for a choice are not judging you.

I don't feel judged by you, I was talking about people outside of this board telling me to leave the r/s.

That is why I believe that relatively soon you need to come to a decision about how you will view your r/s and work on that.

I was on the staying board until I found out he hadn't filed for divorce.

So, a view that says I am in a r/s with an interesting, funny guy that has issues with what I see as the truth... .but I am ok with that.    I can see that view working out long term.

I can also see a view working out that says "I am going to be in a r/s that values honesty and follow through on "deals".  I can see you being satisfied by going down this path and having action that matches this worldview.

Neither of those views work for me, so I need to find a third view.

I suspect there will be in turmoil inside of you as long as you stay on the path of your happiness and satisfaction coming from him following through on promises.

My happiness and satisfaction never came from him following through on promises. I actually don't know what happiness and satisfaction are, I didn't experience them in my FOO or my first marriage. I'm not so sure I'm concerned about happiness or satisfaction right now. As the single mother of a teenager I'm not looking for happiness or satisfaction to come from any r/s with a man. My child's father had his chance to provide me with that and he failed.

Note how deftly he has shifted things so now you have to wait on HIM getting a new lawyer

I am the one who suggested he get a new lawyer if his lawyer wasn't doing his job.

I believe ForeverDad had some concerns about conman type "always having an answer" things... .

I can understand that and I can tell you my fiancé is not a conman. I would not be involved with a conman for three years, nor introduce him to my family, friends, church and community. I also don't think my family, friends, church and community would like him if he were a conman. I don't think that's his problem. I think his problem is he bit off more then he could chew with divorcing his wife, closing his business and relocating.

As I said I am now working with a social worker and am going to take DBT again to help me with radical acceptance. I also appreciated the discussion on circular arguments on another topic. I understand that being on the undecided board is not recommended long term however  I actually got moved to the undecided board less then a week ago. Its true I do need to find new ground to stand on in the r/s.

[once removed]

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